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Celebrities in limelight as anti-war activists
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Thousands of antiwar protesters rallied around the country this past weekend. The antiwar movement also includes a number of high-profile celebrities who seem to draw a great deal of media attention and criticism when they speak out against a possible war in Iraq. Why are so many stars taking a stand against going to war? Human rights advocate Bianca Jagger and Jonah Goldberg, syndicated columnist and editor-at-large of National Review Online, joined "Crossfire" hosts Tucker Carlson and Paul Begala to debate the role Hollywood is playing in the possible war against Iraq. CARLSON: Thanks for joining us. Now, as you know, part of the rap against celebrities who wade into incredibly complicated international situations such as Iraq is that they don't know what they're talking about. (Speaking to Jagger) I want to give you exhibit A. It's something you wrote. This is advice that you say you gave to the foreign minister of Iraq during your recent trip. I'm quoting now. "Establish a new military command that includes senior generals from the Kurdish opposition militia groups." This is essentially like asking President Bush to put members of al Qaeda on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Put your worst enemies in control of the military? ... JAGGER: No, no, no. Not in control. CARLSON: Or give them power in the military. This is never going to happen. Isn't this why people make fun of people like you, because it's naive? JAGGER: Well, no, this is not that people make fun of me. If I had gone there and I had not made any suggestions and urged them not to do what I did, which was to open up the country to begin a process of democratization. ... What I believe is that what we should do is to have dialogue and diplomacy just as the United States is having with North Korea. ... We should be going to Iraq to stress that point to the Iraqi government. I think that perhaps we could have some influence in the Iraqi government in order for them to begin to have the process of democratization from within so that they will not have to face a war. CARLSON: Wait. But you were there for six days, and during your time there, by your own account, you were taken and shown supposed atrocities committed by the United States and the terrible effects of the embargo on Iraq. You were essentially used as a propaganda tool, as a prop by the Iraqi government.
JAGGER: Please forgive me for interrupting you, but as you see in my report, I quote Unicef. I quote [the relief agency] Oxfam. I quoted a commission that was made from the U.N. Security Council, who issued a report about the effect of sanctions on the civilian population in Iraq. Therefore, what I'm saying is not in accordance to what I saw or what they tried to make me believe, but what I know in advance and what I went to see for myself, and I found to be true. Half a million children have died due to the United Nations Security Council. BEGALA: Jonah, let me bring you into this. First, I can't wait to hear you attack a person for going over and calling for democracy in Iraq. But it seems to me that a lot of celebrities have weighed in on this, and let me read you a list of some more. Not just Bianca Jagger, Kim Basinger, or these others I mentioned. Here's another list. General Anthony Zinni, General Brent Scowcroft, General Wesley Clark, General Norman Schwarzkopf, General Merrill McPeak. All celebrities all with the same first name, curiously. They seem to know what the hell they're talking about, and all of them have had problems with the timing and the tactics of the president's policy in Iraq. Are they illegitimate as well? Are you going to bang on them too? GOLDBERG: No. Look, it's perfectly legitimate that some people are going to disagree, and for all I know Ms. Jagger is a well-informed conscientious person who's done all of her homework and she's entitled to her opinion. I think those generals are probably wrong. And I could probably come up with a longer list of generals who don't have problems with the war. But, look, serious people on both sides of an issue can have disagreements. The question here is about celebrities. And the last time I was on this show I actually had to defend Elmo the Muppet testifying before Congress. Here's a piece of lint getting an enema and we're supposed to listen to him about budget processes. Meryl Streep once testified famously before Congress, saying that she was there to represent the uninformed. Now, that sums it up pretty well when it comes to these celebrity issues. JAGGER: I would like to say something. BEGALA: Ms. Jagger, just a second. I would like to read something that General Zinni, for example, said. It seems to me that he's buttressing what many of these celebrities are saying. This is what I'm saying. My point is that [some] Hollywood celebrities are echoing some of our finest generals. Anthony Zinni was the commander in chief of the central command. The command that would be prosecuting a war [against] Iraq if we have one. Here's what he said. "It's pretty interesting that all the generals see it the same way, and all the others who have never fired a shot and are hot to go to war see it another way." GOLDBERG: Yes, well that was actually a pretty cheap shot at this whole chicken hawk argument, which I'd be delighted to have with you at some point. But the point that we're on the topic tonight about is you said that these celebrities are echoing what these generals have to say. And I think that sums it up pretty well. They're echoing it and they're miming it ... And look, Ms. Jagger is on here talking about how 500,000 kids died in Iraq. Well you know the reason those 500,000 kids died, if it was that many, is not because of sanctions. It's because Saddam Hussein refused to spend his oil money for food for children. In the areas in the Kurdish North and the Shiite south, kids are doing great and better than ever. BEGALA: I agree with that. CARLSON: Well Bianca Jagger, what about that? I mean, Saddam Hussein's children aren't going without medicine. That's a good point, isn't it? JAGGER: All right. Let me answer that. To begin with, you know ... the oil for food is supposed to be renewed every six months. Of the entire amount of money that was supposed to be put aside for food for oil, only 40 percent has been paid to the Iraqis. It is not something that we are saying. It's something that has been documented by various NGOs [non-governmental organizations], including Unicef, which is part of the U.N. Now, when you go there, you see very well that they do not give them all the medicines that they need because it's all to do with dual use. [You see] medicine and medical equipment that is not received, and for reasons that we do not understand. ... Children are dying of preventable diseases ... because they do not have all the drugs that they are supposed to be receiving. Now let me say something else, because I'm here defending celebrities. I've been a human rights advocate for the last 20 years. ... BEGALA: Mr. Goldberg, let me read a comment from one of these ill- informed airhead celebrities and see if you have the courage to attack him. "Personally I don't have all of the information President Bush has, but I believe Saddam has committed many crimes against humanity and in his own people," so sayeth Tom Cruise. ... Are you going to stay consistent and say that ill-informed celebrities, who happen to agree with your view, are also airheads? GOLDBERG: No, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, and from all I know Tom Cruise isn't going around launching activist groups, starting marches, flying to Baghdad, serving as a meat prop for Saddam Hussein's evil regime. I mean, there are things that people can do or not do in order to back up their rhetoric. Seems to me Tom Cruise is very humble. He says, "I don't have all of the facts, but it seems to me Saddam Hussein is a bad guy." And I'm sure he's getting a lot of grief for that in Hollywood for saying it. CARLSON: Now Bianca Jagger, speaking of Hollywood, maybe you can give us insight into the famous person community here. I want to read you a quote from Sheryl Crow, who is a singer. This is what she said at the American Music Awards the other day. "I think war is based on greed," said Sheryl Crow, "and there's huge karmic retributions that will follow. I think war is never the answer to solving problems. The best way to solve problems is not to have enemies." Can you tell us, what is "karmic retribution"? And among celebrities, is this a widely recognized phenomena? JAGGER: Tell me something, did you really call me here to answer what she said? Or is it really the issue here that celebrities are simply reflecting what many Americans feel today, that there... CARLSON: Well, I don't think many Americans know what "karmic retribution" means... JAGGER: ... that they are opposing the war and that's why you are talking about celebrities today. The truth is that the anti-war movement is growing, not only in America but throughout the world. And that is the real issue. You had a president that was President Reagan. He was a celebrity. He was an actor.
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