Millennium 2000: Human RightsAired January 2, 2000 - 0:00 a.m. ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BERNARD SHAW, CNN ANCHOR: Some glitches, but no millennium meltdown. The Y2K bug turns out to be more of a pest than a problem.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: A hero's welcome for the pilot of a hijacked Indian Airlines plane whose cool head helped to save more than 150 passengers.
SHAW: And a look at human rights in Asia, as Indonesia experiences an extraordinary year of Democratic triumphs and strains.
Welcome to our special continuous coverage of Millennium 2000. I'm Bernard Shaw.
WOODRUFF: And I'm Judy Woodruff. We'll devote most of the next half hour to human rights.
The world is now well into the new millennium, and in most places, the Y2K computer bug has yet to bite. But experts say beware. The bug may simply be delaying its attack. Many people breathed a sigh of relief when they found their bank machines, telephones, and electricity in full working order.
But experts say the real test won't come until Monday, when the world's businesses turn on their computers after the holiday weekend.
Several of the world's nuclear power plants are also reporting some minor glitches. Officials at a Japanese nuclear plant say that a computer linked to a radiation monitoring system ceased up, but that there were no reports of major damage or safety risks.
SHAW: A few nuclear plants in America also are reporting brushes with the Y2K bug. In Arkansas, automatic entrances to two restricted areas shut down. A spokesman says manual access was used until the problem was resolved in about 15 minutes.
President Clinton's point man on Y2K says none of the problems reported so far pose any cause for alarm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KOSKINEN, PRESIDENT'S COUNCIL ON Y2K CONVERSION: We talked about the five nuclear plant licensees. That number is now to seven, but that's all we have out of 103. They're all in the peripheral issues. All of them have been corrected. But the seven of the 103 reporting those minor issues do think that the seven are minor Y2K related glitches. No power has been affected to anyone. There's been no effect in the operation of the plants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHAW: So were the concerns about Y2K problems exaggerated, or were the absence of Y2K problems a success story? Whichever is true, neither the security nor the celebrating came without a price, as CNN's Greg LaMotte reports.
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GREG LAMOTTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Wow, what a party. Wow, what a headache.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kind of hung over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel bad. I'm tired. I'm still tired. I wish there was a Starbucks or something right here.
LAMOTTE: Millions greeted the New Year feeling...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like I needed another drink.
LAMOTTE: When you party, you pay. And now that the party's over, there is a price to be paid for cleaning up. This was where the Rose Bowl parade was held. Workers dismantled the grandstands, and somebody's got to pick up all this trash.
Los Angeles, like all major cities, paid a price even before the New Year: $155 million to get Y2K ready, an emergency command center was staffed all night monitoring the 88 cities that occupy L.A. County. Apparently, the money was well spent: No Y2K problems.
JON FULLINWIDER, LOS ANGELES EMERGENCY CENTER: No problems with any of our communications systems, our power systems. All government systems seem to be working correctly.
LAMOTTE: The emergency command post in Los Angeles will be shut down by Monday.
SGT. DAVID HELM, LOS ANGELES SHERIFF: Our personnel have talked to six or eight of the major cities across the United States, Chicago was one of them, Phoenix, New York, and they are all closing their emergency operation centers because they've had no report of problems either.
LAMOTTE: Millions greeted the New Year feeling a little shaky, worried about Y2K bugs and the threat of terrorism. Oh, they're still feeling shaky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little under the weather.
LAMOTTE: But that's just part of paying the price for the party.
Greg LaMotte, CNN, Los Angeles. (END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: Americans were not the only ones paying the price after New Years celebrations. So were millions of people around the world. CNN's Marina Kolbe has a look at the revelry and a tour of the first day of the New Year.
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MARINA KOLBE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Acropolis in Greece greets the dawning of the new millennium peacefully. The Acropolis was built on defensive high ground a half a millennium before Christ. Then they built temples. Today, they build Web sites.
A world which now is so attached to technology has spent an estimated $200 billion to $600 billion to avoid the Y2K bug. Despite all the concerns, the clock ticked passed midnight around the globe, but the bug didn't bite. And it certainly didn't show up at festivities around the world, which went off without a hitch. It seemed like a domino effect of celebrations as the celebration in one time zone gave way to another and another and another.
Countries with different religions, different calendars, different cultures turned this moment into a universal celebration.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to wish everyone this New Year whatever one could wish for himself.
KOLBE: And now they share the same goal on the day after: tackling the task of cleaning up after the revelry, and the common woe is felt around the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A good evening. Went to lots of bars, O'Neil's.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we were drinking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how we're going to get rid of a hangover, basically crash out now for the next eight hours.
KOLBE: But some are not yet ready to rest. In London, celebrations continued with a parade of color, pompom girls, and antique bikes. In Paris, they showed their Jois de Vie marching the street parade. In Rome a hardy few marked the start of the new millennium with a New Year's they dipped in the muddy waters of the Rome's Tiger River. And the Catholic Church designated January 1st as World Peace Day.
POPE JOHN PAUL II (through translator): We cross over the threshold of a new year with a commitment to make our contribution that peace might become the daily language of people.
KOLBE: And as the world begins to write another page in history, the pope questioned what direction the great human family will take and urged people to push away the temptation to violence and war.
Marina Kolbe, CNN.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: A little earlier, Larry King sat down for a one-on-one talk with Microsoft founder and chairman, Bill Gates. Gates shared some of his thoughts on the Y2K bug and why the time for concern may not be over yet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL GATES, MICROSOFT CHAIRMAN, CEO: In terms of infrastructure, things like elevators and planes and missiles, I thought people would be able to do a great job making sure there were no dependencies there. There is going to be -- In the months ahead, you're going to hear about billing systems, or tax-related software that's going to get screwed up. It's not going to be catastrophic, I don't think, in any case, but there's going to be lots of snafus that we haven't -- that haven't been...
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Don't rest on laurels then.
GATES: Yeah, there's still a little bit of a mess there that'll be cleaned up. And it ended up being a fairly minor issue because people really worked together. I mean, if people had ignored the thing, then we would be seeing some real impact.
KING: But if it went down...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: In other words, we can't relax yet. And this reminder: On Monday night, Larry's guest is Monica Lewinsky.
SHAW: One day after 155 hostages were freed from that hijacked Indian Airlines plane in Afghanistan, the whereabouts of the hijackers is uncertain. The five hijackers left the plane Friday, freeing passengers and crew in exchange for a jailed Muslim cleric and two Kashmiri separatists.
India's foreign minister says the hijackers have gone to Pakistan, but Pakistani officials deny that and say they will arrest the five if they enter the country.
The passengers, meantime, are crediting the plane's pilot for his leadership during the ordeal. Our New Delhi bureau chief, Satinder Bindra, has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SATINDER BINDRA, CNN NEW DELHI BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): A nation of one billion people has a new hero: Indian Airlines Captain Devi Sharan. Most of the released hostages say Captain Sharan's cool thinking and diplomatic skills saved their lives.
Captain Sharan says it wasn't easy. One of his worse moments came on the first day when the hijackers forced him to take off from the Indian City of Amritsar to Lahore, Pakistan with only minutes of fuel.
CAPT. DEVI SHARAN, INDIAN AIRLINES PILOT: I died many times. I died many times. At least when I took off from (UNINTELLIGIBLE) they said, "We will not die in Indian territory. We will die in Pakistan territory. You take it to Lahore."
BINDRA: Captain Sharan says the hijackers told him they didn't care if he crashed. He says he was petrified about the safety of his passengers as he approached Lahore Airport in inky darkness.
SHARAN: I just (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to Lahore, everything was closed. Airport runway lights were closed. I didn't have any choice. I didn't have fuel to go back to Amritsar. I had only choice that I have to crash this airplane.
BINDRA: Captain Sharan says he was lucky the aircraft didn't clip any buildings or trees as he blindly descended into Lahore, touching down with less than two minutes of fuel remaining.
Worse was still to come for Captain Sharan and the passengers on day three of the crisis.
SHARAN: I remember this was the most, you know, I would say scary moment for me. When this moment came, they said, "No, we will kill one by one because our demands have not met."
BINDRA: The hijackers were demanding the release of 36 Muslim militants jailed in India. The hijackers kept the plane moving from Lahore to the United Arab Emirates and then to Kandahar in Southern Afghanistan.
(on camera): At first, India said it would not negotiate, but as the plane reached Kandahar, Indian officials learned the hijackers had more guns and grenades than earlier thought. Convinced the hijackers wanted to blow up the plane, Indian officials started to talk.
(voice-over): By the fifth day, living conditions on the plane had deteriorated. People were sick. The toilets had clogged up, and the air was foul. Captain Sharan, though, had won the trust of the hijackers. He joked with them frequently and was allowed to walk the aisles, even talk to the passengers.
SHARAN: I had many passengers came to me, "Let's fight." I told them casualty will be very high. I cannot take risk of fighting.
BINDRA: Captain Sharan says what sustained him during the ordeal was his vast reserves of patience. By the time Indian negotiated a deal to release the passengers in exchange for three Muslim rebels, Captain Sharan had been almost eight days with only a few hours of sleep. Now his New Year's resolution is to rest up so he can go back to flying again.
Satinder Bindra, CNN, New Delhi.
(END VIDEO CLIP) WOODRUFF: Meanwhile, U.S. aviation officials say a Florida man is lucky to be alive after dumping anti-Communist propaganda over Cuba. Fifty-one-year-old Ly Tong rang in the New Year by flying a single engine cessna over the Cuban capital, Havana. Officials say he dumped pamphlets urging Cubans to overthrow President Fidel Castro. U.S. Customs tracked his plane on radar, and Cuba launched two MiG fighter jets to monitor his flight. But they took no action. When Tong returned and landed, he was immediately detained. Tong was born in Vietnam and describes himself as a freedom fighter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LY TONG, PILOT: I try to encourage and appeal to Cuban peoples to stand up, to rise up to overthrow the Havana title. That's it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: U.S. Coast Guard, meanwhile, was busy on another front taking more than 400 Haitians and Dominicans into custody. They were all crowded onto an aging freighter. The boat ran aground after trying to evade Coast Guard patrol boats. The passengers were reluctant to leave the boat, but all have now been removed. The Coast Guard commander said it is likely that most will be sent back to Haiti.
SHAW: As our special coverage of the Millennium 2000 continues, we focus on the future of human rights.
WOODRUFF: A case in point is Asia. People there are enjoying more consumer clout than ever. We'll look how that's leading many Asians to demand more personal freedoms.
SHAW: A corner of the world that values order challenges another that values freedom. Different values, shifting power.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAHATHIR MOHAMMED, MALAYSIAN PRIME MINISTER: They keep on saying Asians are bad, Asian values are no good. They are the ones who are racist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHAW: But the world is not so simple. Looking for the balance between East and West.
In recent years, one of the most visible divides between East and West has been in the area of human rights. Western democracies have put it high on their international policy agendas, often meeting an angry rejection from Asian nations who regard outside pressure as a violation of their sovereignty.
WOODRUFF: But as CNN's Hong Kong bureau chief, Mike Chinoy, reports, much of Asia has undergone dramatic change recently and not because of Western pressure.
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MIKE CHINOY, CNN HONG KONG BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): A fault line between civlizations or a fig leaf for dictatorship. Across Asia, the battle over human rights helped shape the politics of the 1990s. On one side, proponents of so-called Asian values insisting that stability and economic growth were more important than individual rights.
PROF. DONG YUNHU, CHINESE SOCIETY FOR HUMAN RIGHTS STUDIES (through translator): Of course, some Western countries think that because some people were put in jail in China that the human rights situation has gotten worse. But do the problems of a few people reflect the overall situation? I don't think so. China has more than 40 millennium poor people who need food and clothing. Isn't that a more important problem?
CHINOY: Not to those who find themselves behind bars, like Harry Wu, who spent 20 years in Chinese labor camps.
HARRY WU, FORMER POLITICAL PRISONER: They only treat a human beings as a kind of animal to feed them, to take care of them. This is a kind of a violation of the United Nations Human Rights Declaration. We have to know that declaration only have one version. We don't have Chinese version. We don't have American version.
CHINOY: It's not only in China where the debate has raged. Malaysian prime minister, Mahathir Mohammad, has long been one of the leading advocates of Asian values, sharply dismissive of his critics in the West.
MOHAMMAD: They keep saying Asians are bad, Asian values are no good. They are the ones who are racist. They don't look at us as equals.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Embracing the universal principles of political freedom and human dignity.
CHINOY: American insistence on making human rights a centerpiece of its policy in Asia has added to the controversy, and in a region plagued by numerous ethnic and separatist conflicts fuel the sense of resentment.
ROBERT MANNING, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: When the president goes out and says, "Sovereignty doesn't matter anymore. We'll intervene anyway we want on the name of human rights," that cuts a lot of different ways if you're sitting on Asia, where there's all kinds of disputes and all kinds of ethnic groups.
CHINOY: Yet in the final years of the century, one authoritarian regime after another was swept away in Asia, not because of Western demands, but because it internally generated pressures for change. The most dramatic recent case, Indonesia, where after three decades of irony-fisted rule, President Suharto was forced to resign, and a Democratic election put reformist, Abdurrahman Wahid, in office last October.
ZOHER ABDOOLCARIM, "ASIAWEEK" MAGAZINE: Certain values are changing, and the people in Asia, certainly in some Asian countries, do value change and freedom.
CHINOY: In South Korea, for example, long ruled by generals, the current president, Kim Dae Jung, is a former political prisoner. Taiwan, which a decade ago was just emerging from martial law, is about to hold its second Democratic presidential election. Ironically, it's been the economic success of Asia's authoritarian regimes that help generate movement for political change.
ABDOOLCARIM: Now you have a situation where, in many, many Asian countries, people are living better than ever before, and once they get to that point, they start thinking about other issues. They start thinking about individual freedom. They think about choice of work, choice of education for their children, basically choices. And once you stop thinking about that, you start wondering about basically do I have the freedom to make those choices.
CHINOY: Even in China, where dissidents are still routinely arrested, economic development has created a middle class and given more people more personal freedom than at any time in Chinese history, a process many observers believe is now irreversible.
WINSTON LORD, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CHINA: In the age of information and technology and Internet and satellite and computers, they've got to open up. They've got to allow some dissent and certainly a free flow of information and pluralism if they want to develop that economy in a global system.
CHINOY (on camera): In the end, those changes are reshaping the debate about human rights in Asia. For most countries, disconnecting from the world is not an option, which means the economic pressures for more open, Democratic societies are likely to grow.
Mike Chinoy, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHAW: In a moment, perspectives from Kishore Mahbubani, an author, and also, Singapore's ambassador to the United Nations; and Jack Donnely, professor of international studies at the University of Denver, when we come back.
SHAW: In the year just finished, a number of incidents underscored the state of human rights in Asia. They include East Timor's violent turn towards independence from Indonesia, and China's efforts to defend its human rights record while trying to win entry in the World Trade Organization.
Joining us live from New York is Kishore Mahbubani. He joins us in his capacity as author of "Can Asians Think?," and not in his other role as Singapore's ambassador to the United Nations. Also bringing his perspective, Jack Donnelly, professor of international studies at the University of Denver.
Mr. Mahbubani, I want to ask you a basic question and get the opinion of our other guest. Are universal human rights and Asian values compatible or a contradiction?
KISHORE MAHBUBANI, AUTHOR, "CAN ASIANS THINK?": The short answer is compatible. I think Asians also believe in the universal declaration of human rights. That's not the problem. The problem, of course, is a historical one, how you achieve the human rights in Asia.
SHAW: Professor Donnelly?
JACK DONNELLY, UNIVERSITY OF DENVER: I don't think I disagree very much with that. I think that indeed Asians and Westerners share many similar values, and I think that's a good way to start.
SHAW: Let me put this question on the table. How much of this dispute has to do with the different attitude about time, West and East, the different concept of time?
MAHBUBANI: I think you put your finger on the key point: question of time. What most people in the West don't understand is that the latest push for human rights, export human rights in the West comes at the end of I guess what I call a 500-year cycle of Western effort to export their values, their impulses towards the rest of the world. And this is, in a sense, for many Asians, a continuation of the colonial phase, the Cold War phase, where developments in Asia were fundamentally conditions by impulse coming out of Europe, coming out of North America, and so on and so forth.
And I think we have reached a point in history where -- And this, for me, I thought, was the big story of the millennium. That we're reaching the end of this 500-year cycle. There's a sense of, in a sense, impatience. There's a continuing effort to try and run the globe from one quarter of the world. And that, in a sense, is what that in the 1990s to the emergence of what you might call the Asian values debate.
SHAW: Professor Donnelly, what about that?
DONNELLY: Well, I think that if the issue is who's running the globe, we might have one set of responses. I mean, I think Ambassador Mahbubani was talking about not human rights. We started out by saying that Asians share these values, that they're the same values as expressed in the universal declaration of human rights. And I think that ought to be the focus of our attention, whether or not indeed Asians are in the late 20th century -- I'm sorry, the beginning of the 21st century, if we count that way, if Asians are in a position to claim for themselves the same rights that are enjoyed in the West and elsewhere.
And it seems to me that one of the major pieces of evidence of the last several years is that, indeed, Asians do want more or less the same things, perhaps in slightly different ways, perhaps in slightly different time frames. But basically, I think we're talking about shared values that Asians in numerous places, most notably in the last year, perhaps Indonesia and East Timor, have said are our values, and we insist that our government respect them and respect our rights just as other governments around the world are expected to do.
MAHBUBANI: I completely agree that Asians will want to see changes in their countries. That's normal. Asians want to grow and develop. The question is: Will they make the decisions by themselves, or will these decisions be foisted upon them by others? That's the fundamental question.
I mean, I saw in your segment on China, a Chinese gentleman speaking and said, "OK, you know, things are not perfect in China, but if you look against the history of China for the past 200 years, you cannot deny the fact that this is probably one of the best governments they've had in a long, long time.
And in terms of the massive increases of not just of standard of living or the quality of life and the numbers of people that you see in China, there's been a fundamental, dramatic transformation. But instead of looking at the big picture, instead of looking at the big consummation, you focus on a few dissidents, a few problems here and there, which are normal in any society.
The question that most Western human rights advocates haven't answered is how do you take this massive numbers of people, these three billion people in Asia, and transform them overnight and bring them to the sort of quality of life you have in the West. It cannot be done overnight. It takes time, and that's the main argument that's being put forward.
WOODRUFF: Well, let me pose that question, then, directly to Professor Donnelly. How do you do it? I mean, how do you -- how do you do this overnight transformation that Mr. Mahbubani is suggesting, Professor Donnelly?
DONNELLY: I don't think we're talking about overnight transformations. The government that's ruling China has been ruling it for 50 years now, and they still talk about the 30, 40, 50, 100 million people who are poor that have not been made anything other than poor by this government.
It's not a case of a few dissidents who are occasionally oppressed. We're talking about massive denial of a whole range of rights that Ambassador Mahbubani and I agree are universal rights that should be enjoyed by everyone. We're not talking about transformations that take place overnight or immediately, but we are talking about whether or not people should be allowed the opportunity to express for themselves their own desires, and that's the problem in places like China. Whether the desires are identical to mine or to his, they can't express them, they can't act on them politically. If they want to do Chegong (ph) in the squares in China, they can't do that. We're talking about a case in which...
WOODRUFF: Well, let's stop you there, Professor Donnelly. What about that, Mr. Mahbubani? What about Falun Gong, this view which to outsiders looks perfectly innocent, but which clearly feels very threatening to Chinese authorities?
MAHBUBANI: Oh, the answer is a very simple one. If Professor Donnelly can take over the government of China and do a better job for the billion people, then many people in China will give him the job. And the problem is that in the real world where you have hard situations, tough decisions to make, there are no -- it is not a black and white world where you can make a black choice or a white choice. There's shades of gray all the time, and this was back...
WOODRUFF: But the problem...
MAHBUBANI: This goes back from Tiananmen to today. What are the right decisions to make? And if you look at the big picture overall at what China has done in terms of the numbers of people that have been lifted up from where they were 10, 15 years ago -- And please don't talk about a 50-year government. Ever since Deng Xiaoping took over the fundamental changes only about 10, 15 years old. And if you measure it against the history of development of most societies, lifting up the amount of people that China has done has never been done by any society at any other point in time. I challenge you to dispute that.
SHAW: OK, let's pause. I promise you we'll be right back.
SHAW: Continuing our discussion.
Mr. Mahbubani, is the bottom line in this discussion the simple fact that some, some Asian leaders do not want to yield power to the masses?
MAHBUBANI: I think it is the case that -- it is a normal case for leaders to want to think under power. That's not unusual. But the question you have to ask yourself is a very simple one: How do you judge Asian societies? Do you judge them according to where they stand vis-a-vis Western societies today, or do you judge them on the basis of where they were 15, 30, 40 years ago? Do you see an upward trend? Do you see improvements?
For example, you take even the case of Indonesia that what -- which your program has mentioned. It took 30 years of constant development on the part of President Suharto to create the middle class. And you have this middle class that led to the development of a larger Democratic presence.
SHAW: Are you calling for leniency from the world?
MAHBUBANI: No, no, no, no, no. All I am saying is that you should understand the fact that change takes time. I mean, that's what history has taught us.
SHAW: Well, I asked that question of you, and Professor Donnelly, what about the concept of time?
DONNELLY: Well, but the question is: Who decides what is the right amount of time? I'm not suggesting that I should decide. Ambassador Mahbubani seems to think that he is capable of deciding what the right amount of time is. It seems to me the issue is Asian people should be given the opportunity on their own to decide what the right amount of time is. It's not a matter of corrupt megalomaniacs who run the government for their own private enrichment to decide. It's not a matter for party hacks, who've been in charge of a system for 50 years and have, in many ways, done good things and in many ways done horrible things.
The question is: Why is it that Asian people aren't to be allowed the same kinds of rights to decide for themselves? In the ambassador's country, there are elections that are held regularly, relatively fair, free, and open elections in which people are able to make decisions for themselves.
Why is it that the Chinese people are incapable of enjoying those same kinds of opportunities? Why is it that five years ago, he said that the Indonesia people were quite satisfied with what was going on? And when they had an opportunity to speak for themselves, it turned out that they didn't. It seems to me that's the real issue, not the matter of time, but whether or not people can act for themselves.
MAHBUBANI: I totally agree with Professor Donnelly that the Asians should be allowed to decide for themselves. I mean, that's a point that he and I agree upon. The problem we face in the world today is that it is not Asians who are going off to tell the rest of the world, "Hey, you've got to change your societies and become this way or that way." It's Asians are being subject to constant advice, to constant efforts by Western human rights advocates and so on and so forth, who feel that we can do a better job in our societies. Now the problem that this...
DONNELLY: Is there something wrong with that?
MAHBUBANI: No. The problem that this creates is that quite often, the dilemma, the real dilemma the human rights advocates is what I call within doing good and feeling good. And in the choice within doing good and feeling good, they choose feeling good.
Let me give you one simple concrete example that Professor Donnelly can relate to. The state of Massachusetts has recently decided that there should be no trade within Massachusetts and Miyama (ph). Boy, big decision, very brave, very, very ethical and so on and so forth. It's a meaningless decision. It has no real impact at all. But it makes people in Massachusetts who made that decision, they feel good, they feel they're making a contribution. How does it affect the lives of people in Miyama? Zero. There are absolutely no changes. Do you really...
DONNELLY: So we should do more.
MAHBUBANI: Do you really want to change things in Miyama? Then I suggest that instead of sanctions, open up, have more trade, have more context. And indeed, the lesson of East Asia, the biggest lesson, which is amazing that people cannot see for the last 30 years is that all this dramatic transformation that you have seen in Asia is the result of opening up of economic -- of opening up the economies, more trade, more tourism, more context. And as Winston Lott (ph) pointed out on your program itself, more Internet, more information flows, and that's how East Asia is changing. And that's the way it's going to change, not as a result of a few ethical posturing on the part of some human rights advocates, but as a result of internal transformations.
WOODRUFF: What about that, Professor Donnelly?
DONNELLY: Well, I think this is entirely mistaken. We're talking about, for example, East Timor or Indonesia. We're not talking about posturing by Westerners. We're talking about people on the ground in countries asking for assistance, asking people who have shared values to act on those values.
Yes, it's a symbolic action for the state of Massachusetts to act, but it wasn't a symbolic action for Australian troops to come in. It was not a symbolic action for governments, including some Asian governments, to suggest that it was time for Mr. Suharto to leave.
I mean, if we were talking about Westerners imposing something on Asians, I think the ambassador and I would agree entirely this should not be done. However, when we're talking about Westerners acting on their own values, which are shared by many Asians to support Asians on the ground who are acting for their rights, I think that's where it's important for others outside the area to begin to act in concert with Asians, not imposing on them, but acting with them.
WOODRUFF: Mr. Mahbubani, how can you argue, if you're arguing this, that there is a different set of values held by Asians when you have the divisions you have among Asian nations? And you've been referring them yourself. I mean, you have the Chinese with one set of way of operating, and then you have in South Korea, certainly moves towards democracy, certainly in Taiwan, the recent moves in Indonesia.
MAHBUBANI: Yes, Asia is a very diverse place. And when you have three billion people with so many societies, with such different histories, yes, you're going to have varieties. And...
WOODRUFF: And Japan. I didn't even mention Japan.
MAHBUBANI: Yeah, Syria. And they're all at different stages of development. In the long run, I suspect the vision of the future that Professor Donnelly has and that I have is not fundamentally different. I think we are all human beings. None of us wants to be tortured. None of us wants to be put in jail arbitrarily. None of us wants to be shot in the back walking down the street. We want -- We basically enjoy the same vision, Professor Donnelly and I.
Professor Donnelly has had the good fortune of having been born in the United States in a comfortable society and grown up there.
I was born in a developing society, and where the standard of living, most of us, was relatively poor. I was at the age of six considered malnourished, put on a special feeding program. So I've lived through the developing world, and I've had the good fortune of being in society in Singapore that's done reasonably well.
But I do know, having gone through that past stage in my life, I can see that it takes time, and I can see that you, first of all, you have to have a certain degree of economic development where you have to take care of the basic needs of people. And that can only be done through cooperation.
And that's why I think that all the efforts to impose sanctions of isolation, and in the case of China, for example, it would be a disaster, and believe me -- And I want to emphasize this point. It would be a disaster if China's admission to WTO was rejected by the U.S. Senate and the U.S. Congress. And, yeah, I hope Professor Donnelly will lobby in favor of China's admission to the WTO, because China's admission of the WTO will achieve the vision that Professor Donnelly wants to achieve.
MAHBUBANI: But to do that, he's got to take political courage and take an unpopular standing if he has to and fight against the conventional wisdom in this country, but will he do so?
DONNELLY: I think that there's a point to be made for admitting China to the WTO, and I think there's a point to be made for trying to hold out for more. I think, though, the question -- I mean, here we're talking about particular cases and what particular actions can be taken that will help human rights most. I think sometimes sanctions are the right course, sometimes sanctions aren't. But when Westerners engage in sanctioning behavior, we're acting on our values in ways that hopefully are constructive. If they're not, we deserve to be criticized.
Similarly, though, if people don't push from the outside, particularly with the world becoming more and more interdependent, with people looking at outside people for assistance, for support, for cooperation that external pressure when it supports internal human rights activists, can be very, very important. And that's what I think is most important.
SHAW: Gentlemen, I ask of you a very brief and curt one-line response to this question beginning first with you, Professor Donnelly. In this new millennium, are East and West going to be meet?
DONNELLY: Are they going to meet? No, they're not going to meet, but I think they're going to converge.
SHAW: Mr. Mahbubani?
MAHBUBANI: In my book, "Can Asians Think?," I say that there will be a fusion of civilizations. And I think in that fusion of civilizations, it'll be entering a new era, and that's an optimistic message.
SHAW: Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. There's lots more to come. And when we come back, we're going to look at national and international weather.
WOODRUFF: Well, throughout this holiday weekend, virtually everyone has seen his or her champion take the field. They are the mighty athletes who remind us of ourselves or the selves we think we can be in a perfect world. CNN's Jim Huber pays homage to their spirit by giving us a closer look at the fields that have played host to their dreams.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM HUBER, CNN SPORTS ILLUSTRATED (voice-over): It whispers and it screams. It beckons and it sends us scurrying away. It asks for a moment of our time and gives us a century. It is the fabric, the foundation of our land, the God-given chess board on which we have entertained ourselves all these years.
And oh, the stories it would tell if it so chose. Imagine. Turn your ear downward, inward, and listen. Men stomping on it, rolling in it, tossing it angrily upon other men, driving over and sometimes through it, cursing its roles and loving its challenge.
What tales the Fenway grounds must have for us, there for much of the century beginning so prominently with one World Series after another. And then anointed with tears for the last nine decades or so. Where did the lumbering young Babe go, it must wonder. Nothing has been the same since they sent him away. Oh, the skinny kid kept them screaming for a while, but now he's gone, too.
And now they talk of tearing the whole place down finally, enshrining part of the good earth in memory, but paving the rest. They would never dare such a sacrilege to these patches of grass across the great Atlantic, for what would they call it after all? The all England asphalt and tennis club? No, it's been a bit of a lawn now all these years in all the glory.
For that one midsummer's fortnight wearing ugly brown holes in its knees, either baked by the fury of sun or drowned instead, it still has played host to nearby royalty and crowned new kings and queens. Their skirts are much shorter these days, their shorts shorter, too, their wooden weapons hung in the museum somewhere replaced by the skin of space ships. Still, through it all, it has survived.
The grass at Fenway, the lawn of Wimbledon, but nowhere is there tundra than Lambeau Field. Somehow, it forces the voice deep, and surely the turf echoes that, the frozen tundra.
From the very beginnings of professional football, they came here to test their internal antifreeze. And the early fall when the air would simply ache with the coming of winter, they would tear great chunks of this turf loose in their Sunday pursuits, but the ice soon provided a hard blanket, and they could do little but tip toe about seeking purchase.
In the years since then, they lifted it and installed heaters underneath, but it is still no picnic when they gather on this tundra.
South, a thousand miles both in distance and in decades, the white sands hear the roar of the great engines not far away and wonder why they left. For once upon a time in machines made for out running revenuers, they fertile along the beaches in the beginnings of an industry that is long forgotten. Down the beaches they would go through the tiny town and back again, sometimes sliding dangerously near the crashing ocean before taking a checkered flag. Them with their Carolina twangs, gone suddenly with a speed limit worthy of a sea turtle in their place.
Off a dreary fast food factory behind subtle fences, the Bermuda and Bent roll across the mysterious acres of a Augusta awaiting the first days of spring again. What a shock it must be to be so quiet and peaceful 51 weeks of the year, only to be suddenly roped and staked and painted and trampled in the days leading to Easter most years. What a bit of bad fortune it was to be put there on the hill behind the clubhouse. Destiny could have put you instead in the shade of Amen corner where only the elite can slip your way.
If Fenway wonders where the young Babe went, Augusta must surely miss the loving touch of the man they called Bobby, who first designed it and then walked it before wheeling his chair one last time into a far too early sunset.
When Augusta was still a plantation and Lambeau Field a frozen farm yard, when Fenway was a bog, the thunderous hooves had been carving great niches in the Kentucky dirt for decades, flying, barely touching it seemed before leaping forward again. And, oh, the magnificence of the animals with names like Whirlaway and Count Fleet affirmed the unbeatable Secretariat, turning simple brown earth into an artist's canvas, painting brilliance in great broad strokes.
(on camera): Oh, if this land could talk, and perhaps it can, we simply don't know its language, the wonderful stories it would tell of great achievement, grand despair, of being the very foundation for an unparalleled century of sporting growth.
(voice-over): Growth and destruction, as Fenway and Tiger Stadium, the last remaining remnants of baseball's teenage years, are being demolished. So goes the giant Wembley, the seed of every young soccer player's dreams for nearly a century. The twin towers, one of the great sporting images of our time about to be torn down and rebuilt in hopes of attracting greater wealth and presence on the world stage.
And so it whispers, and so it screams. The tale of a century's playtime from the very ground up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: And that was CNN's own Jim Huber. Magical writing.
And we have a report from a different field of dreams. The Orange Bowl from Miami, the news is that Michigan has defeated Alabama. The score, 35 to 34. You are looking at the final kick for the extra point in overtime. It's one of those classic New Year's day games, Bernie. And now we know the results: 35-34, Michigan, Alabama.
SHAW: And a missed field goal.
Well, the hour has much more ahead in our special coverage of Millennium 2000.
WOODRUFF: In half an hour, we will focus on the future of the Internet. That's at 1:00 a.m. Eastern, 10:00 on the West Coast. Thanks for joining us.
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