CNN Insight

The Case of General Augusto Pinochet

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JACK STRAW, BRITISH INTERIOR MINISTER: I have come to my preliminary conclusion that the senator should not be extradited to the kingdom of Spain on the narrower grounds of his unfitness to stand trial.

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JIM CLANCY, INSIGHT (voice-over): With those words, Britain's home secretary reopens the case of former Chilean ruler Augusto Pinochet to public criticism, private relief and renewed legal uncertainty.

(on camera): On INSIGHT today, we examine that case through the eyes of General Pinochet's supporters and his critics and through historical documents just coming into public view.

I'm Jim Clancy, sitting in for Jonathan Mann.

Well, there was rejoicing on the streets of Santiago this day, as Pinochet supporters celebrated the British government's ruling. But the decision has divided Chileans and is casting a shadow over this weekend's presidential election. Steve Smith (ph) reports now on the influence General Pinochet wields in his homeland.

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STEVE SMITH, ITN REPORTER (voice-over): Chileans too young to remember for themselves the rule of Augusto Pinochet celebrated what they're convinced will be his swift return to Santiago. And with some cause. Although Chile's ambassador to London said it was likely that the ex-dictator would be stripped of immunity on his return, it may not be as easy as that.

HUGH O'SHAUGHNESSY, AUTHOR: Pinochet enjoys two types of immunity. As he made himself senator for life, he enjoys senatorial congressional immunity. To have that lifted would need an overwhelming vote of the two houses of congress.

Even if by some tremendous miracle he got his congressional immunity lifted, he would still be able to appeal to his military immunity.

SMITH: The families of the disappeared and others who rue Pinochet's 17-year grip on power feared today that he'll never stand trial over a catalog of alleged human rights abuses.

It may be years since Pinochet was the caldio (ph), the strongman of Chile. But he continues to have an influence on its political life. He's dominating the headlines four days before Chileans go to the polls to elect a new leader. It was claimed today that right-wingers had hidden the Pinochet issue during the campaign, so embarrassed are they by his legacy.

Joaquin Lavin, once a firm supporter of the General, unexpectedly prospered at the first presidential ballot with 47 percent of the vote. Opinion pollsters said there wasn't a lot to choose between the left- wing Richardo Lagos and Lavin.

O'SHAUGHNESSY: The right, in fact, has done its best to keep him out of Chile. Despite all appearances, they don't really want him back, and they certainly didn't want him back before the elections. Because if he did come back before the elections, he would have reminded people that the right-wing Lavin was a man in Pinochet's pay.

SMITH: Isabel Allende, whose father was overthrown by Pinochet, today urged whoever wins the election to pursue legal recourse against the former dictator. Chile enters a new presidency, a new century with the influence of this old man still in its bloodstream.

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CLANCY: ITN's Stephen (ph) Smith reporting there.

In Spain, lawyers working for the judge who initiated and then pursued the extradition case said they would keep fighting. However, the Spanish government says it will not pass on any appeal brought by the judge, Baltasar Garzon. We spoke with one of Garzon's associates about the ruling.

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JUAN GARCES, HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER: What we are really concerned is that this man got a gift from the British authorities, a kind of statement saying that he is not fit for standing trial in Spain, and then they tell it will be used by Pinochet for avoiding a trial in any other country in the world, including Chile.

That would mean that the British authorities will deliver him a passport for impunity to Pinochet and that will result in the contradiction with the ruling coming from the House of Lords that (INAUDIBLE) granted any kind of impunity.

CLANCY: Mr. Garces, do you recognize any medical problems that General Pinochet might have as grounds for him not standing trial, or do you want to see him before a court regardless of his medical condition?

GARCES: We are applying here the realm of law and have called into the Spanish and the other states and other countries, including Britain, a man that has mental disabilities or mental problems for understanding the charges he is accused of certainly cannot stand trial. But if that's not his problems of (INAUDIBLE) of pancreas and the legs, in no country this person is exempted to face trial.

CLANCY: The British authorities say that they will give you seven days to present new evidence, to present counter arguments in this case. What arguments would you want to make?

GARCES: We cannot debate that what the judicial authorities of Spain, France, Belgium and Switzerland, the (INAUDIBLE) prosecuting Pinochet, has been asked to represent this week to the home office. And we cannot debate that the four countries' magistrates will defend in their way or in other with the British physicians.

Now it's to the home office to decide who he will be follow -- the magistrates, the law or the physicians. We will see that next week.

CLANCY: You personally were involved as an adviser, an aide to President Salvador Allende, who was overthrown by General Pinochet. Do you have a personal stake in this, perhaps even a personal vendetta in getting General Pinochet, getting revenge for the death of Salvador Allende and so many others?

GARCES: The answer is very clear. We have been fighting in this case for years, trying to involve any political or any ideological (INAUDIBLE). And so far, we have disconnected this case in Spain from any internal politics in Chile. So we are having a -- going on in this case only in terms of law and international law.

CLANCY: Do you think that Mr. Pinochet would be brought to trial, as President Frei said he would be if he returns to Chile?

GARCES: What I am thinking that is more probable that Pinochet will come back to Chile, and we can see him soon in the Chilean senate, as a senator intervening in internal politics and laughing about the -- this injustice and the results of the decisions. That will be very sorry, really.

I think that the British authorities can -- should be very careful that that will be the case.

CLANCY: Attorney Juan Garces, our thanks to you for being with us on INSIGHT.

GARCES: Thank you.

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CLANCY: We've got to take a short break. But in a moment, we're going to have a conversation with the other side -- a close friend of Chile's senator for life. Stay with us.

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CLANCY (voice-over): Friends through good times and bad. For years, the rulers of Chile and Britain were united by their dislike of leftist regimes and leftist ideas in the Western hemisphere. That friendship endured even in retirement.

Former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher, remembering Chile's help during the Falkland/Malvinas War with Argentina, made one of the most public appeals to free Augusto Pinochet.

(on camera): Welcome back to INSIGHT. Margaret Thatcher's conservative party criticized the ruling Labour government for its handling of the Pinochet extradition request. They described his arrest as a betrayal of a close ally.

We also spoke with a close friend of Mr. Pinochet who told us the General was delighted with the decision. Peter Schaad says it's still early, too early to celebrate victory. "I'll chill a bottle of champagne when he gets on the plane to Santiago," he told us, "and I'll drink it once he's safely back on Chilean soil."

We asked Mr. Schaad if his friend was now concerned he could face trial when and if he might try to go home.

PETER SCHAAD, PINOCHET FRIEND: I don't think President Frei has said that. What I think he said was that there is a possibility, and I have been fighting for 15 months to get him back to Chile, where the Chileans should decide what they want to do with General Pinochet. It's not up to the Spaniards or the Brits or anybody else, for that matter. It's up to the Chileans.

CLANCY: But he has immunity for life there as senator for life.

SCHAAD: He doesn't have immunity because effectively senator for life. To be senator for life in South America for a former president is quite normal in Colombia and Venezuela and Ecuador, Peru. May I remind you that the higher house in this country is full of senators for life at the moment.

CLANCY: All right. As we look at the situation, though, he does have immunity. He was given that, and so that would seem, on the surface, to make it impossible to put him on trial there unless, of course, there was a change in his status.

Now that may have a lot to do with who takes control of the government in these presidential elections. Would the outcome there make any difference, since one of those candidates running neck and neck is a supporter of General Pinochet, the other one very much an opponent, a former adviser to President Salvador Allende.

SCHAAD: Well, it's interesting you mentioned that because it is most curious that Jack Straw, the home secretary, has decided to make this decision public four days before the second round of the election.

CLANCY: Why do you think that's curious?

SCHAAD: Well, as he has got to wait seven days anyway, he could have waited until next week. Why it had to be decided right now, I don't know. I mean, the earlier the better. But it's curious that it is just four days before the presidential election second round in Chile.

CLANCY: But, of course, it does really depend on the independent medical review, and I want to get to that point right now. Many of the critics of Mr. Pinochet said the only reason that he should be relieved of the responsibility of appearing before a court would be if he were mentally unfit. Do you think he's mentally unfit?

SCHAAD: In order to defend himself, he would have to coordinate many, many factors which are very complex. It would be a very complex case. You have to deal with the British government. You have to deal with the Spanish government. You have to deal with the Chilean government. You have -- and coordinate between lawyers in this country, in Spain, in Chile. You have to think of the wishes of the armed forces in Chile.

It's a very complicated matter, and I don't think that a gentleman of 84 years old, having gone through what he's been through, is capable of doing that.

CLANCY: Now, the medical review itself, the findings of the independent review have not been made public, reportedly because Mr. Pinochet's attorneys don't want them made public. Will there be any change of heart there?

SCHAAD: I don't know whether it was because the General's lawyers didn't want it. I think that was agreed between his lawyers and the home office. At whose request it was was never published.

CLANCY: Regardless and, of course, there is still the slim possibility that in the next seven days, Mr. Straw's ruling could be reversed. But while this means for the moment that he will not be going to trial in Spain, he may not stand trial in Chile, the question remains whether or not you believe, as one of his supporters, that the charges could have been proved against him, whether or not his name will ever be cleared in this case.

SCHAAD: Well, he doesn't need to clear -- excuse me. He doesn't need to clear his name. And like in any civilized country, he is innocent until proven guilty, and this case has never come to trial. If it comes to trial in Chile, let the Chileans work it out.

As far as I'm concerned, as a friend, I consider him innocent. And as far as the courts in Europe is concerned, he is innocent because he has not been proved guilty.

CLANCY: He has not stood trial. He may not stand trial. How much of a need does he personally have - perhaps you've spoken about it - to clear his name, though, to stand up before and say, "No, I did not order these things. No, I am not personally responsible."

SCHAAD: He always tells me that he has responsibility toward two entities. One is God, and the other is the Chilean people. And he told me on several occasions that he has got a very clear conscience toward both of them.

CLANCY: As you look at the case, the toll that it has taken on General Pinochet over these last months as he has had to deal with this court case, with the extradition hearings, has it weakened him physically?

SCHAAD: It certainly has. After his arrest on the 16th of October, 1998, or the kidnap, whatever way you look at it, he recuperated from the operation. But after the 25th of November, 1998, when the lower lords decided -- that's the famous vote of Lord Hoffman against him -- that he was not going to go back to Chile, as from that moment, his physical and mental health deteriorated visibly.

CLANCY: Peter Schaad, our thanks to you once again for being with us on INSIGHT.

Another short break -- but when we return, we're going to examine the wider implications of the Pinochet case for Chile and far beyond. Stay with us.

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CLANCY (voice-over): When the previous ruling was issued that Britain would allow the extradition of General Pinochet, it was hailed by some as a warning -- a warning to other current or former tough rulers that they are accountable for their actions. Now what are those same people to think?

(on camera): Welcome back. This case has not just been about one man or one country. Its final outcome will be documented in law and burned in the memories of concerned parties all over the world.

Peter Kornbluh of the National Security Archive at George Washington University joining us now. He is currently working on a book called "The Pinochet File: A Declassified Dossier on Atrocity and Accountability."

Mr. Kornbluh, thank you for being with us. Let me begin by just asking you your reaction, when you look at the broader picture, to the ruling today.

PETER KORNBLUH, NATIONAL SECURITY ARCHIVE: Well, it was a very troubling ruling, coming at a very troubling time. The home secretary in Britain is using this medical report, which he refuses to make public. And so, there's no way that the international human rights community can actually evaluate whether Pinochet really meets the standard of being declared unfit for trial -- a standard that's really focused on his mental capabilities. And to the degree that you've just reported that he was delighted at this decision, it seems that his mental faculties are perfectly fine.

CLANCY: But let's be honest here, international law has always been peppered with politics, hasn't it?

KORNBLUH: International law has been -- has vacillated on, particularly in terms of its enforcement. And that's why this case was so ground-breaking. It really represents the first time that the international community attempted to enforce the idea that those who commit crimes against humanity, as General Pinochet clearly has done, can be prosecuted outside of their own country where, of course, they are the most protected.

And that is a ruling that was made in his case in Britain repeatedly, and I think that is extremely important now for the future of addressing human rights atrocities.

CLANCY: Have we already seen an impact of that ruling, the one that said you're on notice -- human rights abuses, anyone in the international community, may be able to bring you to justice.

KORNBLUH: There's a new verb in the lexicon of human rights work. It's called to be "pinocheted." And it basically means that the situation of fearing - ex-dictators or current dictators fearing that if they go abroad, outside of their own power base, the arm of the international legal community and human rights community can reach them and can prosecute them for the heinous crimes that they have overseen.

CLANCY: Isn't there a case, though, to be made for it is Chile that should decide whether or not he should go on trial?

KORNBLUH: I don't believe so. The Chileans have proven themselves incapable of doing that. He was in Chile for the last nine years. He was -- resigned, retired from office, as it were, putting in place all of the structures that would keep him from being prosecuted and keep his subordinates from being prosecuted.

One of the most important things that's happened since his arrest is his dark shadow over the country has been lifted, and the voices of those who were his victims have really risen up forcefully. And the laws have been started to be applied, and some of his subordinates have been now indicted for crimes that they have committed.

CLANCY: The cloud has also been lifted off some -- at least some of the documents that relate to this era at the National Security Archives. What have you found?

KORNBLUH: Well, one of the most important things that happened after General Pinochet was arrested is that international and domestic pressure was brought on the Clinton administration to declassify the voluminous record on General Pinochet's human rights atrocities and what the United States knew about them.

And extraordinary documents on the inner workings of Pinochet's oppressive regime have been declassified, and they show conclusively, by the way, that he personally oversaw the operations of his secret police, a secret police that not only tortured and murdered inside Chile but went outside of Chile to other countries, to Europe, even to Washington, D.C. - the capital of the United States of America - to commit acts of international terrorism.

And the documents make it clear that the command structure in the Chilean military was such that Pinochet oversaw these operations virtually personally, and I think these are very important documents. They constitute evidence. They were going to be used, hopefully, in evidence in a courtroom of law, to arrive at a verdict in a courtroom of law.

But in any event, they will provide a verdict of history on General Pinochet's guilt.

CLANCY: But there's still a lot missing, aren't there? There's still a lot that the CIA is not handing over. What are your suspicions as to why, just judging on the material you have in front of you?

KORNBLUH: Well, the CIA and other agencies of the U.S. government prefer to release documents about what was going on inside Chile and about what General Pinochet and his secret police forces were doing, but to withhold documents on what the United States itself was doing in Chile and its own relationship to General Pinochet and his repressive apparatus.

We are pushing for those documents to be declassified, and we think that they will provide a verdict of history on the U.S. role in Chile.

CLANCY: Who was the point man for the U.S. government in Chile in terms of doing the personal coordinating for President Nixon?

KORNBLUH: Well, during the Nixon administration, of course, it was Henry Kissinger, Nixon's national security adviser, who had a hands-on role in pushing the CIA to attempt to overthrow the democratically elected government of Salvador Allende.

We have some documents declassified on that that show Kissinger's role. We also have an extraordinary memorandum of conversation of Kissinger talking to Pinochet in Santiago, Chile, in 1976 at the height of the era of repression in Chile, saying to Pinochet, "We are sympathetic to what you are trying to do here. We think you're just a victim of left-wing propaganda."

CLANCY: When you look at the case overall, do you think there are some people that are nervous perhaps in Washington, in Britain, in Europe about how this overall case could affect the real future of leaders, leadership and accountability?

KORNBLUH: Well, I think this case will affect accountability in the future on human rights issues. I don't think this is a case about prosecuting U.S. officials or the leaders of the industrial West. But I do think it is a case about openness and accountability and about bringing those individuals like General Pinochet, whose name is synonymous with human rights violations, to justice - even if it takes 20 years or more.

Former Nazi war criminals are still being prosecuted even now, and I think that it is clear in the case of Chile and other countries that the victims of human rights abuses simply aren't going to rest until those abuses are accounted for and some judicial process followed through on.

CLANCY: Peter Kornbluh, our thanks to you for being with us on INSIGHT.

KORNBLUH: It's a great pleasure.

CLANCY: One final note before we go. Even if Mr. Pinochet may soon be able to leave Britain, relatives of victims are trying a variety of methods to keep the General in Europe. Spain, France, Belgium and Switzerland all have extradition requests. France and Spain have already said they will respect Britain's ruling on Pinochet's health.

One last resort, though, for the families may be the European Court of Human Rights. A group of alleged victims has filed applications with the court, citing violations in the European Convention on Human Rights. The court says it has two such applications but has thus far not examined them closely.

That's all the time we have on this edition of INSIGHT. I'm Jim Clancy. The news continues in just a moment.

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