CNN Transcript - Evans, Novak, Hunt & Shields: Virginia Gov. Jim Gilmore Discusses George W. Bush's Campaign for President

(voice-over): Texas Governor George W. Bush and Senator John McCain of Arizona followed Senator McCain's double victory in the Michigan and Arizona primaries with more mutual accusations of negative campaigning.

GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I reject the politics of a candidate spreading -- calling me an anti-Catholic bigot over the phone waves, and then telling the press corps that he didn't do that until after the polls had closed in Michigan.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We run a positive campaign. In Michigan, there were two ads of ours up. They were positive campaigns. Two of Governor Bush's were negative. Every state practically is running negative attack ads. We're running none.

NOVAK: Senator McCain has concentrated on Washington state in next Tuesday's batch of primaries, but his supporters hope for a stunning upset in Virginia, where Governor Bush leads in the polls.

Bush depends on support there from Governor Gilmore. A Richmond lawyer, he first entered public office as county prosecutor in 1987, was elected state attorney general six years later in 1993, and in 1997 became governor of Virginia in a campaign that featured his call to reduce the state car tax.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOVAK: Governor Gilmore, the Mason-Dixon poll just out shows Bush 48 percent, McCain 37 percent with a polling margin of error of 4 percent. That's pretty close. What happened to the big, humongus Bush lead in your state that everybody talked about just a couple weeks ago?

GOV. JAMES GILMORE (R), VIRGINIA: Well, I think as the primaries go along and people pay more attention to what the race is all about, you would naturally expect candidates to begin to draw in some additional support. So, you know, I think still at 11 points it's pretty good. But it might even close further. I'll be happy as long as Governor Bush wins Virginia.

NOVAK: Now, Pat Robertson, the president of the Christian Coalition, a fellow Virginian of yours and he contributed to your successful campaign for governor, has jumped back into the news as a supporter of Governor Bush. Do you think that has been a negative for the governor in his campaign against Senator McCain?

GILMORE: Well, sin (ph) doesn't have anything to do with what's going on in Virginia, Bob. There's just no connection with it at all. And I think we can just let Pat Robertson and Warren Rudman fight that out. Right now what I'm focusing on is Governor Bush and his record and why he has a record in Texas that's very much like what we've been doing in Virginia and why I think he's the best candidate for Virginia.

NOVAK: I have to ask you one for more question -- at least one more question about Pat Robertson. You mentioned Warren Rudman, was a former senator for New Hampshire and national co-chairman for Senator McCain. And in Michigan, Pat Robertson put out a telephone -- a recorded telephone message.

I'd like you to listen to it now please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, PAT ROBERTSON RECORDED MESSAGE)

PAT ROBERTSON, PRESIDENT, CHRISTIAN COALITION: A man who chose as his campaign chairman a vicious bigot who wrote that conservative Christians in politics are anti-abortion zealots, homophobes and would-be censors.

NOVAK: Now he's talking about Senator Rudman, of course.

GILMORE: Sure.

NOVAK: What do you think of that?

GILMORE: Well, again, I think that Pat Robertson and Warren Rudman seem to have some disagreement about people of the Christian faith in Virginia or America or anywhere else. We -- the Bush campaign seeks the support of everyone from all parts of the spectrum everywhere, and I think that we are getting it. I think we're getting good, solid support everywhere, but, you know, the phone call doesn't have anything to do with what's going on in Virginia.

HUNT: Governor, I'm going to stay on this for a minute, because when you ran you kept Pat Robertson at arm's length. True, you were taking campaign contributions from him, but at one point his -- one of his chief aides Ralph Reed offered to do -- offered to help you. You said, no, I'll do it on my own. Governor Bush in South Carolina can did not keep Pat Robertson at arm's length. Do you wish he would have?

GILMORE: You know, I don't remember that part in Virginia, to tell you the truth. We...

HUNT: There was an AP story of that fact.

GILMORE: Well, we gained support from everybody across the spectrum, and that's the kind of approach that we're trying to do with Governor Bush in Virginia. But, you know, Al, I can't assure you what's going to happen in Virginia. It's an open primary. But we are reaching out across the spectrum to all different groups of people. Governor Bush has been an includer in the state of Texas. He has a strong Hispanic backing there. I am an includer in Virginia. We're trying to open the party in the community to African-Americans. So that's what we want to do. We want to bring people in and bring people together and not divide them.

HUNT: Well, if you're going to convey the message that you're a unifier, that you're an includer, isn't it then a mistake to go to a place like Bob Jones University, which has -- which practices the politics of anti-Catholicism -- or espouses anti-Catholicism, espouses -- it bans interracial dating, and not confront Bob Jones University when you go there. In retrospect, wasn't that a mistake?

GILMORE: People go a lot of places and they campaign in a lot of different venues. But I was with Governor Bush yesterday and spent all day with him, and we talked over some of these issues. He never expected that when he went to a venue to speak to some students that somehow he was ascribing to some type of policy there or anywhere else. And I...

HUNT: (OFF-MIKE) on their ant-Catholicism and their interracial dating ban?

GILMORE: I know Governor Bush feels very strongly about this and is very enraged that anybody would accuse him of anti-Catholicism. Jeb Bush is Catholic. He has the support of the Hispanic community in Texas, which is largely Catholic. So I just think this kind of thing -- there's just no place for it in American politics today. Now that we've come into the 21st century, we ought to leave behind all that kind of mudslinging, especially when there's no foundation for it whatsoever.

NOVAK: Governor, there's a conventional wisdom among the national media that Governor Bush, in winning South Carolina, went too far to the right for his future nominations and a general election, if he gets that far, particularly on the abortion question. Now your position on abortion is a little bit more moderate than his, because you would permit -- in your campaign, you said you would permit abortions in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Do you think that Governor Bush would have been better advised for political reasons if he had taken a position such as yours?

GILMORE: Governor Bush I think is very strong on the issue. I myself believe that after a child becomes a child then there ought not to be any abortions after that time. But the key, I think, here is that Governor Bush's focus in this campaign is on those issues which are so important to every family and to every working person in the United States. He cares so much about tax cuts for people, which we have done in Virginia -- and it was, of course, a terrific success in the commonwealth of Virginia. We cut the car tax, won our two elections on it. We care very much about education, and he does, too, quality of education. He's an inclusive guy. These are the principles that, I think, he's worked on in the background that he has.

NOVAK: Well, you did run very successfully on cutting taxes in Virginia, but the polls indicate -- to my surprise, I must say -- that Republicans would prefer to write down the debt, as Senator McCain proposed, than cut taxes. Has the Republican voter changed his desire for tax cuts?

GILMORE: No, I don't think so. I think people that say that people don't want tax cuts in this country are wrong. You know, when we were fighting World War II and the very survival of the United States was at stake, we were paying about 32, 35 cents on the dollar for taxes. Now here we are in a time of prosperity and relative peace, and we're still paying about 35 percent of the dollar. We've come all the way back up to that again. That's too much. And federal taxes are where the real money is here. And the fact of the matter is that Governor Bush is the one who has come forward with a real tax-cut proposal that's going to be best for working men and women across this country. It's better...

HUNT: So you think that tax cuts...

GILMORE: ... better than John McCain's proposal.

HUNT: You think tax cuts should have precedent over debt reduction?

GILMORE: I believe that putting money back into the pockets of working men and women and families of this country is going to yield a better economy, a better quality of life for people, more revenues in the long run, which is going to pay down the debt.

HUNT: Governor, let me ask you one more question about -- broad question about the Bush campaign. They have spent now $60 million. "The Washington Post" said this morning they spent $400,000 a day last month, $288 an hour, twice as many staff members as John McCain, three times as many offices. They've spent twice as much money and they have fewer delegates. Given that record, can you look us in the eye and say you think this has been a competently well-run campaign or would you like to see some changes?

GILMORE: Well, you know, having run twice now statewide -- and I know how elaborate it is just to run statewide. It's hard to imagine running nationwide -- and Governor Bush is a truly national candidate. He's running all across the country in all the various states. He's already pre-paid a great deal of money. He's active across the board in so many states.

HUNT: You don't think they've wasted a lot of money? GILMORE: Well, I don't think I've seen any evidence of that. We certainly haven't wasted any of it in Virginia. And in the meanwhile, he's active and vigorous all across the country.

HUNT: Governor, we will be back in just a minute to talk to Governor Gilmore about whether the establishment has failed George W. Bush.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Governor, the very powerful, politically powerful, governor of Michigan, John Engler, couldn't bring George W. Bush in first in Michigan. Senator Judd Gregg, a former governor, couldn't do it in New Hampshire. Has the Republican establishment lost the right stuff? Are people like you just unable to bring an organization and put it at the disposal of a presidential candidate?

GILMORE: You know, Bob, I don't know what the establishment is. I'm the son of a meat cutter myself. I came up through the ranks, and so I don't know what establishment is. But I know this. I know that no one can deliver on the people. The people have to decide for themselves who they're going to vote for. That's true in Michigan, it's true in Virginia. And I think that governors and congressmen and senators can persuade by simply pointing out what they think is important based upon their experience. But I don't think that anybody out there can deliver the people. They have to decide for themselves.

NOVAK: Is the Virginia Republican presidential primary important?

GILMORE: It is important. That's why we placed it where it is. Virginians are a very diverse people. We're a microcosm of the United States, and we ought to have an ability to have some say in the selection of the president.

NOVAK: Would you say then that if Senator McCain wins that, that he is well on -- against the odds, wins in Virginia -- that he is on his way to the nomination?

GILMORE: Well, the people haven't made up their mind what they're going to do yet. We hope they'll vote for Governor Bush, but they have to make up their minds...

NOVAK: That wasn't the question I asked. I asked...

GILMORE: Well, I'm going answer the question.

NOVAK: OK.

GILMORE: I'm going answer the question. And that is that this is a long road. Governor Bush understands it to be a long road. We have Virginia this week as well as Washington, California and New York and Massachusetts...

NOVAK: Don't forget North Dakota. GILMORE: And North Dakota, too, which will be coming up this week. But Virginia does have 56 delegate votes. We're about as big as Michigan, and we're winner take all. So it's a good state for Governor Bush, but we -- I'm not going to tell what you people are going to do. I'm suggesting and recommending and hoping that the people of Virginia will support a guy who cares about what they care about, which is what we've been doing in Virginia, tax cuts, quality in education, bringing people together, reforming welfare.

You see, the key, Bob, is he has a proven track record. He's not hiding off someplace in some legislature. He is the executive, and the executive branch ought to be led by a person who has executive branch experience. And that's the governor of Texas.

HUNT: Governor, let me ask you this. This campaign has gotten pretty nasty. This week, Bob Dole, the 1996 standard bearer for the Republicans, warned that, at the rate it's going, that whoever gets the nomination may suffer the same fate that he suffered after Steve Forbes attacked him in 1996. Does that worry you, that the attacks from both these candidates is debating the worth of the nomination in the fall?

GILMORE: You know, Al, I've been through a lot of races myself. You see an awful lot of campaigning and an awful lot of assertions back and forth. I have faith that the people of the United States will make a good decision. They're getting information that I think they can sort out what's true from what's not true and make good decisions. Nobody in this country is going to think that George Walker Bush, the governor of Texas, is anti-Catholic. It's a gross thing to say, it's not true, and...

HUNT: In all...

GILMORE: ... nobody's going to buy that.

HUNT: In all fairness, that telephone call did not say he was anti-Catholic. It never did. I don't know if they said, you know, anything else, but in that phone call they did not say that.

But let me ask you this. Has either man stepped over the line? Either man, either McCain or Bush gone beyond what is legitimate in politics?

GILMORE: Well, Al, it ain't bean bag. This is a tough business, American politics, and I have faith, we all have faith that the people of America will settle it all out. I think people are entitled to say what they're going to say, and sometimes they do step over the line...

HUNT: Is that a yes or no?

GILMORE: ... and they pay for it.

HUNT: Is that a yes or no? Has either man stepped over the line?

GILMORE: Well, I think that when -- I don't think these candidates have stepped over the line. I think that they have been out there fighting, and they are entitled to do that. But the public has to decide whether or not they're being misled by somebody. And I think that these candidates have a right to put their views out there.

NOVAK: Governor, the syndicated columnist Mike Kelly has said that the Republicans have a choice coming up between John McCain, who he says can beat Al Gore, and George W. Bush, who he says will lose to Al Gore. And Mike Kelly suggests that Republicans would rather lose with Bush than win with McCain. Is that true?

GILMORE: I think we can win we with either of these candidates. I think either of the Republican candidates can win. We're seeing all the action right now on the Republican side. It's where all the interest is, it's where all the discussion is. To the extent that Democrats have been coming into the Republican primary, it's because they're disenchanted with Al Gore. They're disenchanted with Bill Bradley. I understand that. I would expect that. But, of course, when they come into our party, we -- you know, we know that they're coming because they think they've got better choices on the Republican side, and we hope that they stay.

Now in Virginia, there will be a pledge that says that if you come in and participate on the Republican side, we don't expect people then to go back out and participate on the Democrat side, too, within a few weeks. That would imply that there's something not quite honest about that.

NOVAK: They're not going to be tossed in jail if they don't vote exactly...

GILMORE: No, I don't think so. But we're honorable people in Virginia, and when you come here and participate as a Republican, that's what you ought to do.

NOVAK: You say either guy can win, Governor. If John McCain is the Republican nominee -- end please listen to my question carefully -- can you enthusiastically support him in the general election against Al Gore.

GILMORE: Yes, but my priority and my goal is to recommend to the people of Virginia and the people of the United States someone who they can rely on, someone who has a proven track record in the executive position, somebody who has a proven track record of working on education, working on inclusion, working on tax cuts -- which is not an easy thing to deliver, by the way -- and Governor Bush has done that. And that's the kind of record that I want my candidate to run on. That's the kind of guy that I want to put up there that I can support and recommend strongly to the people of the United States and to the people of Virginia.

HUNT: Governor, I'm going to commit heresy in this season and get off of presidential politics just for a moment, if I may. You are the chair of a commission that is looking at Internet taxation.

GILMORE: Yes. HUNT: You have been a foe of any kind of Internet taxation. You favor the moratorium, I know that. But there are a lot of people who worry that this commission may come up with some proposal that leads to the eventual taxation of the Internet. Is that a legitimate concern?

GILMORE: It's a concern, all right. This is a commission that's strongly divided, and there are people on the commission that are very vigorously trying to get taxes on the Internet. But I believe it's the wrong policy. This is a great opportunity for the people of the United States, a great opportunity for America to lead in the 21st century.

I've examined the questions of whether it's dangerous to retail establishments, and I don't think that it is. I've examined the question of whether or not a no-tax policy would be hard on the revenues of states and localities, and I don't think it is.

But what it would be is a good policy for people. It's a chance for poor people to go on the Internet and buy goods and improve the quality of their lives without paying taxes. It's a chance for older people who can't get to the store to be able to buy on the Internet without paying taxes. It's a chance for small business to get on the Internet and suddenly get into the game with people right now who are worldwide in their marketplace. This is an exciting moment for us, Al, and we ought not do anything to diminish it or strangle it, Al.

HUNT: Well, let me ask you, your friend, the governor of Michigan, John Engler, says if your commission recommends and Congress adopts any kind of permanent moratorium or ban on Internet taxation, that would be, he says, a, quote, "unprecedented infringement," end quote, on states rights.

GILMORE: No, I don't agree. I don't agree with that at all. And Governor Engler and I just have agreed to disagree on this point. I'm respectful of him, but just I don't agree with him on this.

We live in one country in the United States. We've read all our stories about what was going during the Articles of Confederation. We made a decision to come together and to form a Constitution and to become one great nation. And we decided to do that, Al, because of commercial issues. And the fact is we reserve to the Congress and to the federal government the ability to regulate interstate commerce. This is interstate commerce. And we can't allow any of those kinds of concerns to block the ability to deliver a great tax cut and benefit to working men and women in this country.

HUNT: OK, Governor, we will be back in just a moment with "The Big Question" for Governor Jim Gilmore.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: Now "The Big Question" for Governor Gilmore.

You are governor, naturally more interested in domestic issues. Several times tonight you've talked about Governor Bush's expertise in those areas. But let me ask you this: Which man, George Bush or John McCain, would engender more confidence in your eyes as commander in chief?

GILMORE: A fellow who has, in fact, been a commander in that he's run a state, a fellow who's had to make the decisions. The governor of the state of Texas has, in fact, had to set the agenda, to understand his advisers, to be able to make decisions, to be able to establish the laws that he's going to sign and not sign, to be able to set policy. That's what a chief executive does. As governor of Texas, that's what he's done. And that's why he will be a great commander in chief.

He believes in strengthening the military, which has been allowed to go down, in my judgment, to a very dangerous ebb. We live in a very dangerous world right now. We have a great deal of disruption, both with China and with Russia, we have difficulties we're seeing with places like Kosovo and in local kind of conflicts. America needs to be strong. We need to have a strong military, and that is a foundation of Governor Bush's position.

NOVAK: Which of the two candidates, do you think, has a better temperament -- I'm not talking about experience, a temperament -- to be president, in your opinion? Or is there any difference between them?

GILMORE: Well, I'm not as well-acquainted with Senator McCain. He has been in Washington almost all the time. I only met him a few times. He did come in once or twice to campaign for me, but then again Governor Bush came in much more frequently to campaign for me. So I only know -- I know Governor Bush better. And I must say that I think that he has addressed himself very, very well in this campaign. I'm proud of him. I have no hesitation about my strong and continuous support, and so do the other Republican governors. Because we're proud of him. We think he's done a nice job and presented himself well in this campaign.

NOVAK: Governor Gilmore, thank you very much.

GILMORE: Thank you, Bob.

Al Hunt and I will be back with a comment after these messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: Bob, what a difference Jim Gilmore and John Engler -- Engler, the tough Michigan governor who said I'm going to deliver everything, brooked no nonsense. This guy was clearly for Bush, made the case, but also didn't attack McCain. I think it's frankly more effective.

NOVAK: I was interested that Governor Gilmore was -- wanted to get as far as he could from Pat Robertson, his supporter, from abortion, from the abortion issue. He wanted to talk about tax cuts, Al. You may not like it, but this very sober, moderate governor things tax cuts are a good issue. HUNT: Well, he's a conservative and he's a very descent conservative. And he's absolutely right about staying away from Pat Robertson and Bob Jones. They are lethal. But I'll tell you, debt reduction trumps tax cuts, Bob.

NOVAK: He wouldn't, Al, really say that Virginia would be fatal to George Bush if John McCain wins it. But I really do believe if next Tuesday McCain scores an upset there, this would be bigger than Michigan, bigger than New Hampshire. I think it would really hurt Bush.

I'm Robert Novak.

HUNT: And I'm Al Hunt.

NOVAK: Coming up in one half hour on "RELIABLE SOURCES," is Bill Bradley getting the short end of the stick by the media? And how has the Internet changed now that politicians are running their campaigns?

And at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge joins "THE CAPITAL GANG" in looking at what's happened in Michigan and Arizona and what's ahead in the upcoming primaries.

HUNT: Thanks for joining us.

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