TalkBack Live

Should Miami's City Manager Have Been Fired Over Events Surrounding Elian Gonzalez?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: It's the latest fallout from the government seizure of Elian Gonzalez: Miami Mayor Joe Carollo fires city manager Donald Warshaw over events surrounding the INS raid.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR JOE CAROLLO, MIAMI, FLORIDA: My manager told me that the police chief knew in advance and that he had been given orders by the federal government that he could not say anything to me or anyone else.

DONALD WARSHAW, FORMER MIAMI CITY MANAGER: I'm glad Chief O'Brien chose not to share anything with me, not to share anything with the mayor.

CAROLLO: I hereby remove you from your position as city manager.

WILLIAM O'BRIEN, RET. MIAMI POLICE CHIEF: I'm here today to announce my retirement. And the reason for that retirement is threefold. First of all, I refused to be the chief of police in a city that has someone as divisive and destructive as Joe Carollo as mayor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, has the battle for Elian Gonzalez evolved into a political battle for Miami?

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

Anger continues to simmer in Little Havana over the federal seizure of Elian Gonzalez. The police chief has resigned, the city manager has been fired, and the mayor is facing new criticism.

Here is what Miami Police Chief William O'Brien had to say this morning after announcing his resignation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: I think the mayor still hasn't gotten over the fact that I didn't give him a call on that. Even if there hadn't been a law, there is no way I would have let him know about it.

If the world had gotten out, there would have had confrontation much, much astronomically greater than there would have been.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Joining us now on the phone is Tim Padgett, Miami bureau chief for "Time" magazine.

And, Tim, I know you're pushing a deadline, appreciate your time.

TIM PADGETT, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Thank you.

BATTISTA: If you would, a little bit of background on what preceded this news conference this morning.

PADGETT: Well, Joe Carollo had been upset ever since the wee hours of the morning Saturday, when he found out that this raid had been taken place and that he hadn't been told about it, especially given the fact that one of the assistant chiefs of police had actually been in the front seat of the van that came to take Elian away. So Carollo, who along with Miami-Dade County Mayor, Alex Penelas, some weeks before, had vowed that they would not allow their local police forces to help federal officials carry out this raid, and a leader like Carollo suddenly had to answer to his constituency, particularly his Cuban exile constituency here in Miami, as to how this could have happened, how the police could have given aide to the federal officials when they had vowed that that would not happen.

So someone was going to have to take the fall for this, and last night it happened.

BATTISTA: Now as I understand it, the chief of police was legally forbidden, if that's the way to phrase it, from informing the mayor that this raid was about to take place, correct?

PADGETT: Well, being a federal operation, yes, and as he said, however, one of the things that was on his mind, given what Mayor Carollo and Mayor Penelas had said some weeks before. He said this morning that even if it had been legal for him to tell Mayor Carollo about this, he wouldn't have, given this sort of incendiary rhetoric that Mayor Carollo had been indulging in some weeks before. He simply felt that Mayor Carollo would have gotten on the phone and would have compromised this operation in a matter of seconds.

BATTISTA: It does not sound to me like the mayor, and chief of police and the city manager have had a very good working relationship.

PADGETT: No. What happened last night and this morning is only going to make the Banana Republic image that Miami had been stuck with lately stick harder, and I think all what you really have right now is just the image of a very dysfunctional city government. You have a lot of, for example, Non-Cuban critics here, saying if the Cuban- American leadership here spent half as much energy running the city as they do plotting the overthrow of Fidel Castro, Miami would be a paradise.

So I think what you have right now is, you know, the culmination of many months and years of some real divisive, dysfunctional city governance going on here, and I think there's a feeling here that after the Elian mess, this is going to have to change.

BATTISTA: One more technical question: Who does -- in the structure of city politics in Miami, who does the mayor have the right to fire?

PADGETT: Well, he has the right to fire the city manager. He did not on the have the right, under the city charter, to fire you're the chief of police. Had he had that power, of course he would have done it in a minute, but he wanted the city manager, Mr. Warshaw to do it. Mr. Warshaw refused, and so the only person that Mayor Carollo could fire was the city manager, Mr. Warshaw, and that's what happened. And this morning, the chief of police resigned, because at least according to his own words, he felt that simply there was too much divisiveness in the city right now, and it was best for him to help diffuse the situation, to step down.

BATTISTA: Can anybody save the city manager and the police chief at this point, or is there any inclination to do so?

PADGETT: The city manager can be saved, his job can be saved by a majority vote, I believe, of city commissioners, who are sort of like the city council here. That's not likely to happen. You never know. With the police chief stepping down the way he is, it might help gain some sympathy for the city manager, but it doesn't look good.

BATTISTA: All right, Tim Padgett of "Time magazine," thanks very much for joining us, appreciate the information.

We have to take a quick break here.

The INS agent who led the raid into the home of Elian's Miami relatives is giving more details now about what happened the night of the mission. His side of the story right after this break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM GOLDMAN, INS COMMANDER: Throughout my career, I've never met with the level of resistance and intimidating crowds that I met with during the execution of this warrant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back.

Joining us now are Francisco Aruca, a businessman and host of the radio talk show Radio Progresso on WOCN in Miami. Also with us, Jose Basulto, president and founder of Brothers to the Rescue, a group that patrols the Florida Straits looking for Cuban refugees.

Welcome to both of you.

Francisco, let me start with you. We heard Police Chief O'Brien saying that even if he had been allowed or could have informed the mayor about the INS operation, he would not have because he thought it would have escalated the situation and made it worse. Do you think -- do you agree with that?

FRANCISCO ARUCA, HOST, WOCN'S "RADIO PROGRESSO": I'm totally in agreement with it. I think you would have a hard time finding any of the Cuban-American politicians here not doing that, unfortunately. Some of them would do it faster than others, but that was a risk to be taken. And if you read what is being reported in the press today, where clearly, according to the INS sources, what they had set up there was an orchestrated operation that was going to guarantee people jumping over the fence, a Cuban radio station calling people to move on to the house as the federals arrived.

With that operation that they had set up, they are waiting for the federal agency to come in. If somebody had notified them ahead of time, that would have guaranteed loss of life. If you allow me, I want to at least add some information that may be interesting. Although I agree...

BATTISTA: Hold on just a second. Let me get Jose's reaction to this first...

ARUCA: Yes.

BATTISTA: ... though, before we go off on that.

Jose, if you and others had known about the INS raid ahead of time, what would you have done?

JOSE BASULTO, FOUNDER, BROTHERS TO THE RESCUE: Actually, we would have done nothing. It was discussed in the Cuban exile organizations here in Miami what action to take, and what we did was we joined the family in one of the meetings that we had the previous days and told them that we were going to support whatever decision they took. In other words, that they were to hand the child to the INS when they came to pick him up, the community would have stayed put there and nothing would have happened. Unfortunately...

BATTISTA: Even though Lazaro said -- even though Lazaro said they're going to have to take this child by force?

BASULTO: Well, he meant by force having to go there to the house and take him from there. What he didn't want to do was have the child feel that he had betrayed him and have the child for the remainder of his life thinking that we, namely the family, the community and everybody else, delivered him to people he didn't want to be with. And regarding...

BATTISTA: Isn't it likely...

BASULTO: Yes?

BATTISTA: Isn't it likely, though, a lot of supporters would have showed up if they had known the raid was to take place within an hour or so, and that certainly could have caused problems? BASULTO: Probably so, and I'm sure there would have been more people had they known that the raid was going to take place at that time. But that doesn't mean that there would have been violence. Actually, the violence was initiated by the police force here acting the way they did and the fact that the police force of Miami was in effect federalized by not informing the civil authorities here, which is regular procedure. This caused that problem of the firing of the police chief and also the fact that the police instructions were to act violently against the community, and there is very many documented incidents in which the police acted with violence. And, as you know, violence only begets violence. And this is what the administration wanted: the violence of the Cuban community in exile to demonstrate we are a violent community and thus creating a smoke screen over their own crime, which was the way they took Elian.

BATTISTA: Let me -- before we move on to the politics of this a little bit, it has come to -- the INS version of what happened during the raid that night has come to light in the last day or so during those moments when federal agents stormed the home of Elian's Miami relatives.

Jim Goldman is the INS commander who led the raid, and he had this to say in an interview with CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM GOLDMAN, INS COMMANDER: I banged on the door, I gave my command, I waited. I banged on the door repeatedly, I repeated my commands, I waited. They did not respond. They did not open that door. And once the -- once I gave instructions to the entry team to breach that door -- OK? -- in fact there was a sofa pushed up against that door. I can't think of anything more dangerous than jumping out of a closet while federal agents are searching your house.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Was that weapon ever pointed at the child?

GOLDMAN: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Jose, I know you were not there -- that night you were there, I think, some 30 minutes later. But your reaction to that?

BASULTO: Well, I'd like to know if the person that was pointing the gun was the commissioner so he can state that the gun wasn't pointed at the child. And they've said many things to cover up what is really their own crime, the way that the child was taken from that home at full violence. And this is the type of armed violence that Clinton has been saying that he's trying to get away from schools, the guns in schools and so on, and he's the very same one that brings full violence and god knows the cursing that took place in front of that child and the other children that were there coming from those officials, as I have been told.

BATTISTA: Francisco, your reaction to the INS version of the raid.

ARUCA: Absolutely, absolutely true. That's when it shows the picture. If you look at the picture, you're going to see a professional man with his finger out of the trigger. Even the angle of the rifle doesn't point to the so-called fisherman, who now supposedly wasn't even a fisherman and much less to the kid.

If you have seen pictures after and before, in a way it shows that may have not even been that man, the one that picked up the boy, but the lady agent. Once you have the whole setup that was there, with people waiting in the house behind, they have built a way to jump over the fence as soon as the federal agents came in, the fact that they put a sofa behind the door, and according to that, the head of the task force -- you just heard him say -- they knocked for over 25 seconds and they did not open. So it was a fast operation, more of a show of force, as the attorney general has said, precisely to guarantee what actually happened: that in a very short period of time, without anybody getting wounded or anything like that, the mission was accomplished and the law was fulfilled.

BATTISTA: Hose, I would assume that you agree with the mayor's decision to dismiss the city manager and you're not sorry to see the police chief go.

BASULTO: That is correct. I believe that the mayor acted in the best interests of the citizenry. I think it would be a very bad precedent that the police force could be put under the federal government and be used accordingly, whichever way they want, without informing the civil authority, in this case the mayor. The mayor should have been informed, and if they feel that they were taking a risk with this, well, so be it. You're taking a major risk by taking actions of a police state. This is something that is not uncommon in Cuba.

BATTISTA: I have to take a quick break, and, Francisco, you can answer that when we get back. Also, what the Miami family lost and won in yesterday's appeals court ruling and what the court still has to decide about asylum for Elian.

Greta Van Susteren will help us sort all of that out, and you can vote in our TALKBACK viewer vote at CNN.com/TALKBACK, our unofficial poll there. Today's question: Should Miami's city manager have been fired? We'll check the results a bit later in the show.

Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Miami Mayor Joe Carollo came to the office after a state appeals court unseated Xavier Suarez following a vote fraud scandal stemming from the 1997 election. He came to the U.S. when he was five or six as one of the nearly 14,000 Pedro Pan children, whose parents sent them out of Cuba in the early 1960s.

Francisco -- let me go to Francisco, who wanted to address the politics behind some of these city decisions in the last 24 hours -- Francisco.

ARUCA: Yes. First of all, if something has been accomplished by this action, by Mayor Carollo, it is the guarantee further alienating the Cuban-American community, particularly a segment of the Cuban- American community, from the rest of the components of this society.

They have suffered already a tremendous loss in terms of public opinion with the rest of the country, as the polls show. But there is a political thing here that should be taken into account. Behind Elian's position and Elian staying in Miami is a very power industry with a tremendous amount of influence, a tremendous amount of money donated to politicians.

In the previous election, Mayor Carollo ran against Mr. Xavier Suarez, and Xavier Suarez had the full support of what is known here as the anti-Castro industry or the anti-Castro exiles. Mayor Carollo concluded Xavier Suarez is only -- is the only candidate that has so far announced his candidacy against Mayor Carollo for next year's election. My opinion is that besides the fact that he was not allowed to play up to that industry by having the information, Mayor Carollo by behaving the way he's behaving is trying to guarantee a switch in the support of that anti-Castro industry from Xavier Suarez to his support so that he can win next year's election.

That, in my opinion, is the political move, and in order to achieve that, which he believes would guarantee the election because of the tremendous resources of this industry has, he has basically toyed around with the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the city.

So I think maybe the final explanation doesn't even have a lot to do with the Elian case per se, but how that plays up to this powerful industry.

Your audience must understand that the situation in Miami is one in which in order to get an idea, you go to "Nuevo Herald," the only daily in Spanish that is owned by "The Miami Herald": not a single opinion columnist, not a single. When you're that categorical, there is something un-American going on here: Not a single columnist in their opinion pages defends the idea that Elian should be with his father. Ask yourself why.

Well, we have been suffering here for many years, and only is it coming to the surface now because of this issue is the tremendous power of a very narrow-minded industry.

BATTISTA: Let me...

ARUCA: And that is what Carollo's catering to.

BATTISTA: Let me set this argument aside for just a moment, and we'll come back to it so Jose Basulto can address that, but I do want to bring in some of the legal developments that happened in the last day or so.

Yesterday, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals handed down a number of decisions in this case. Joining us now to talk about, CNN legal analyst Greta Van Susteren.

Greta...

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hello, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: How are you? The decisions that came down yesterday seemed to benefit both sides of this case to some degree.

Some degree, you're right. In some degree, they both lost. I think probably the most significant aspect of the ruling that came down yesterday is that the father of Elian Gonzalez, Juan Miguel, can intervene on behalf of his son in the Court of Appeals argument. And why that's important is because he'll be able to bring his viewpoint about what's about the best interest for his child to the court. Although that's simply not the legal standard, at least he has a voice. His voice will be presented to the United States Court of Appeals.

What's interesting, though, is he did not bump Lazaro out of the appeal so the great-uncle is still in the appeal to present what he believes to be the best interests for the child before the United States Court of Appeals and whether the child should have an asylum hearing.

So the father's in; the great-uncle's not out. We just simply have another party.

BATTISTA: I'm going to have to take a break here in a minute, so we'll continue with all three of our guests. But let me go to the audience, because I have not done that.

Cindy, go ahead.

CINDY: Yes, I would like to say that the mayor has every right to be upset about this raid. The raid was not carried out properly. It was not carried in the best interests of the child. And one other thing is children and guns do not mix -- never will.

BATTISTA: Ty.

TY: I think that the guns were necessary because the family had already said that they were going to resist, and if you stick a gun in a person's face, they're not going to resist you very much. And the officers didn't even do it with a lot of force. I mean, they had their hands off the trigger, and they weren't really handling the guns in a really threatening manner.

So they had the show of force to keep the family from not resisting but they didn't have a show of force to say that, you know, you move and we're going to kill you.

BATTISTA: And...

(APPLAUSE)

And one more -- one more here. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I have to agree and disagree with bits and pieces of what both of them just said. I feel that the raid was a success because they did get the child successfully out, no one was harmed, nothing bad happened. So maybe guns and children don't mix, but as he just said, the gun was never pointed at the child. The child was never in any way, like, hurt. So it had to have been a success.

BATTISTA: All right. I have a little bit more time here before we go to break.

Greta, what happens next now on the legal front?

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, the parties, the father will now, since he's been allowed to intervene, will file a brief with the United States Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit saying, look, this is my opinion, I speak on behalf of my son, and this is what I want for my son. My son presumably does not want an asylum hearing, and he's trying to convince the United States Court of Appeals of that.

On May 11th, all the lawyers get together and they argue about this, and they'll each have an allotted time -- usually, about 15 minutes to a half an hour each side -- and everyone gets to make legal arguments. There are no witnesses. It's simply a matter of law. Is that child entitled to an asylum hearing or not and who speaks for the child?

The United States Court of Appeals, three judges sitting there will listen to all the arguments and they will then begin to deliberate on it. But this isn't like a jury trial where they're going to come back in a day or two. They actually can take weeks or months. There's no timetable. There are no deadlines for judges, unlike everybody else in the judicial system. There are no deadlines, and it may be weeks, it may be months, it could even by days. But they will render an opinion whether or not Elian Gonzalez should have an asylum hearing.

And of course, the losing side can go to the United States Supreme Court and say, United States Supreme Court, will you entertain still another appeal on this issue? The court doesn't have to, but the United States Supreme Court may say we do think this is an important issue, we're going to look at it and we're going to decide it.

BATTISTA: And that could take months.

VAN SUSTEREN: That could take almost years, Bobbie. I mean, that could take a year and a half.

BATTISTA: How old does Elian have to be to make up his own mind?

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, it's a good question. It depends on which side you're on. If you talk to -- if you talk to one side of this, you say that he can, by virtue of the fact that he's an alien, that his age is not an issue. But others say you have to be 18. We don't know, and that's why you go to court, to try to sort out these rather thorny issues, because the law unfortunately is not crystal clear.

BATTISTA: And meanwhile, the father is obligated to stay here in the United States during this entire process.

VAN SUSTEREN: Obligated in a couple ways. One is that -- well, the father isn't obligated. Elian Gonzalez is the one who is obligated, the child. Of course, the father would probably want to stay with his child, but the father has said to his lawyer, Greg Craig, that he will stay in the United States. The attorney general of the United States has issued what's called a departure control order, which holds the child in the United States. And the United States Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit has said that child may not leave the country.

But can the father leave the country? My understanding is, yes, he could leave the country. The child cannot.

BATTISTA: All right. Greta Van Susteren, thanks very much for joining us today. Good to see you.

VAN SUSTEREN: Nice to see you, Bobbie.

BATTISTA: We have to take a break. As we do that, though, let me go to the audience here quickly to get another voice in.

Yes, Sara (ph).

SARA: OK. I agree that the raid was a success. I'm delighted that the president and Mrs. Reno were sensitive enough to the needs of the child to return him to a loving father, as was evident when they got together.

That let's us know that we do have officials in our government who are concerned about people and are sensitive.

I'd liked to say thank you to the president and Mrs. Reno for a fantastic job.

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: We'll be back in just a moment.

Cuban President Fidel Castro has complained that U.S. officials are blocking access to Elian. The boy and his father are staying at the Wye River conference center, 70 miles outside of Washington. That is well beyond the 25 miles Cuban diplomats may travel without special permission. Castro also complained that Elian's Cuban visitors have been limited to 15-day visas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right. We are back. And I wanted to ask Jose Basulto about the fact that -- I can tell you that it seems that on a daily basis when we have done this issue that more and more of the audience seems to support the government and its decision, and less and less of the audience seems to have sympathy for the Miami relatives, and I'm wondering if you thought about; and there is criticism coming from within the Cuban- American community even in Miami about maybe this wasn't handled quite the right way by the Miami relatives. What do you think?

BASULTO: There are two things here which really concern me and worry me, the fact that truth is established through polls, and the general opinion of the United States is quite misinformed about the situation inside that house, that family and other important factors there. Also the fact that decisions are accepted by bottom line results and bottom line is just one factor important in reaching a solution.

However, the way you get to the solution is also very important. The means used to convey this child to his father, I maintain, are illegal. This has been challenged even by eminent professionals of law from Harvard University, which normally don't side with us, and this is the arguments itself that I'm making that should concern the American people. When you let some things be done just because you're in agreement with the bottom line, eventually, the bottom line will get back to you.

BATTISTA: Francisco, you are in the minority of the Cuban- American community in your stance down in Miami. Do you always feel safe about your position?

ARUCA: Well, the word is not safe; I feel convinced of my position. I'm very happy that our position at this moment has the support of 70 percent of the American people, and I am also encouraged by the fact that you just mentioned that even some prominent Cuban- Americans of a conservative nature are coming out, realizing we may have overdone.

I think that if you analyze what happened here last week, it is interesting that the Cuban-Americans who played negotiators between the relatives and the government were not the members of the Cuban- American foundation, were not the public leaders of the traditional exile groups. It was new faces, conservatives, yes, and they probably didn't realize how serious the situation was and it wasn't going to be easy to solve, but it was new faces, and I think already shows you that the old approaches are getting to a limit. This has been a costly battle in terms of public opinion, and they are paying for it. They chose their own topic legally, morally, from a family point of view, and they are paying the consequences. It's simple as that.

I would like -- I don't know if the lady lawyer is still there. I don't want to debate with the lawyer. However the interpretation I have of some of the lawyers is that once Elian's father has been accepted by the appeals court, and given the fact that even the local family court in Florida has already decided that Florida law would not even allow the great uncle to be a relative because he's not considered a relative, according to Florida law, I have an interpretation of some lawyers that say that at once hearing starts on the 11th, there is a chance that the father already accepted may present the case of, hey, this is a 6-year-old, I am the representative of the child, the sole custodian, according not only to the INS.

But according to the law, including local family courts, something that they oversight, tend to forget. They claimed that they wanted that court to decide. That court decided. And the interpretation I have from some lawyers is that once these presentation is made by the father, the appeals court may decide to end it right there, which by the way, would be the best for the child , the father, but also the best for Miami.

BATTISTA: Greta isn't here.

Go ahead, Jose.

BASULTO: Yes. Unfortunately, it's believed here that the father has the property of the child, and this is the argument that Janet Reno has gone by, saying that the father is the one that can speak for the child. By doing this, she's put as a priority the interests of the father over the interests of the child, and the only place you can establish that is in a family court, where initially, the Immigration and Naturalization Service sends the child to go, yet when Castro protested and asked violently to have the child sent back to Cuba, then the whole thing reversed itself, and once again, Mr. Clinton, to harmonize with Castro, put all means available to have the child railroaded back to Cuba without a hearing in family court, where arguments pertaining to the best interests of the child would have been heard, and here, I believe that the situation would have been much different and the polls here in the United States, which would have shown otherwise.

What you have forgotten, all Americans that are at this time united behind sending the child back to Cuba is the kind of police state, the kind of repression state, the kind of lack-of-freedom state that Cuba is, and this is the atmosphere that Elian will be condemned to live in the future, and Castro has been asking for Elian so badly, will have to convert this child into one of his spokespersons, and the child has already been -- the conditions in Cuba are being prepared to receive the child in an indoctrination center, which will be his new home in Cuba, where they are preparing the conditions, where psychologists, psychiatrists, teachers and so on to reprogram the child so the child conforms to Castro's standards.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a break at this time, and as we do, we check the results of our CNN Quick Vote. Today's question: Should Miami'S city manageR have been fired. The current results are about 9 percent yes, 91 percent no.

We'll be back in just a second.

Justice Department officials say the case, including the raid to seize Elian, has cost more than $578,000 from the day the boy was found at sea on Thanksgiving through last Monday. That figure does not include the cost of housing Elian and his family in Washington. Miami officials say their costs associated with the case amount to at least a million.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Hi, my name is Katya from American University. Since Elian has been reunited with his father, I see no reason why the relatives and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) about his well being.

BATTISTA: All right, to the audience quickly here -- Christian.

CHRISTIAN: I think Elian should be sent back to Cuba because he is an illegal immigrant at the moment here in the United States and they should send him back. Every day, thousands of illegal immigrants get sent back to their home country from the United States, and we should return Elian as fast as possible to the United States. He has no legal right to be here at the moment.

BATTISTA: And Charlotte.

CHARLOTTE: Cost isn't an issue in this case. the only thing we need to worry about is saving the little boy. We need to just do what's best for him and not worry about the money. That doesn't matter.

BATTISTA: Do you think -- what do you think, Charlotte, should he stay here?

CHARLOTTE: I think he -- I think we should grant asylum to the dad and to the little boy and everything could end right now. And whatever happens, it just needs to get over with soon.

BATTISTA: And that's a key point.

Jose and Francisco, let me ask you both, if this should drag on for months or possibly even years, and let's say that Juan Miguel wins this case, do you think he'll go back to Cuba?

BASULTO: I don't think this case is going to last as long as many people fear. I think it's the determination on the administration of the United States, Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, et cetera, to exert as much force as they possibly can, even if it gets to illegalities, to send the child back to the island. This child has become an obstacle in the re-establishing relations between Castro's Cuba and Clinton's hidden agenda that has been forwarded since the very beginning.

I am a survivor of a shoot down of the Brothers to the Rescue airplane in 1996. At that time, the Clinton administration with foreknowledge, consent and giving its participation to the operation allowed Castro to shoot down the Brothers to the Rescue airplanes and kill four of my companions. If an administration is willing to do that -- and I have the evidence to prove it -- it's willing to send Elian, no matter at what cost. The illegalities here don't matter. Elian will be in Cuba soon if Clinton has his way.

BATTISTA: Francisco, do you think Juan Miguel would ever ask for asylum? ARUCA: Well, you know, I'm not Juan Miguel, I'm not in his brain and conscience. What I think is important is that the exile community in Miami first said let the father come and then we will give him the child. Later, they said, let him come with his family and we'll give him the child. Well, he's here with his wife, his little baby, he hasn't made any announcement that he wants to stay. He's had ample opportunity. So I don't have to second guess that. I don't think that should be the game.

I think more important is to come to the realization that the child seems to be very happy with the father, at all the reports we hear. He's a 6-year-old child. I ask the question again that I asked of the lawyer on the previous occasion, can it be that the appeals court would decide anything differently now than the father is here with his son and saying I want basically to drop this case and the only representative of this child. The other great-uncle that has been recognized by the court, the Florida court has already decided he's not even a relative according to Florida law.

So I don't know from the legal point of view -- again, I'm not a lawyer -- but I'm saying I've heard opinions of all the lawyers saying, and it has nothing do with a conspiracy theory of Clinton's government. It has to do with the fact that the appeals court may decide, yes, it is true the father is here. This is just a 6-year-old child. And if the father doesn't want to continue the process, I don't see any reason why it should.

ARUCA: I'd like to answer that.

BATTISTA: OK, I've got to take a quick break, Jose, and when we come back.

PHILHANA (ph): Hi, I'm Philhana from American University. I believe the Cuban exile community feels passionate about one of their own. However, I think they are being too critical of the country that has given them their own freedom.

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BATTISTA: Jose, I promised you a word when we came back -- go ahead.

BASULTO: Thank you.

I am surprised to hear the people saying that the child is happy. Apparently, they know things that we don't know. When the child was in Miami, he was seen by the press every day. I had the personal privilege of seeing that child every day for at least three months, until I decided to space more of my visits to the house. I know how the child feels. I've seen the child every day, and I can tell you he was a quite happy child here with the family in Miami.

Today, I have only seen snapshots, some of them that come from the father himself, so I question the validity of all that has been being given out. The federal government is keeping the child in a cocoon so that the child cannot express himself freely, nor has the child been given the opportunity to talk to his relatives, especially Marisleysis, the person that took so much good care of him on all this time.

It's unfortunate the federal government is facilitating Castro, the conditions, so he can take the child back to Cuba at whatever cost.

Thank you very much.

BATTISTA: We are out of time Jose Basulto and Francisco Aruca, thank you both again very much for joining us.

We will be back Monday. Have a great weekend. Stay tuned for a special edition of STREET SWEEP.

See you again.

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