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Crossfire

Is There a Republican Who Can Beat Hillary Clinton?

Aired May 19, 2000 - 7:30 p.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Tonight, Rudy Giuliani pulls out of the New York Senate race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK CITY: I've decided that what I should do is to put my health first. This is not the right time for me to run for office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: So now, is there a Republican who can beat Hillary Clinton?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE.

On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Robert Novak.

In the CROSSFIRE, in New York, Republican New York Senate candidate Congressman Peter King. And later, former Republican New York Congresswoman Susan Molinari. And in New York, Democratic Congressman Jerrold Nadler, a supporter of Hillary Clinton.

NOVAK: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

The word finally came from Rudy Giuliani today, and the word was no. The mayor of New York City is not running for the U.S. Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: I don't feel that if I take on the commitment to run, that I'm -- that I have the kind of confidence that I should have, that I'd be the candidate that I should be. I don't know that I'd be able to campaign the way I should, I don't know that I'd be able to concentrate on it the way that I should, and I don't know completely whether in August or September that I'd be able to continue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Does that leave the Democratic nominee Hillary Rodham Clinton an unimpeded path to the Senate, and who knows what beyond that? Not if the Republicans have anything to say about it. Rick Lazio, a 42-year-old fourth-term congressman from Long Island immediately announced for the Senate. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICK LAZIO (R), NEW YORK: I am looking forward to this race with enthusiasm, and we will have much more to say about that over the next couple days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: He appears to be the anointed Republican candidate, with the system rigged for him to be nominated by the GOP at its state convention in Buffalo May 30th, just 10 days from now. Can this little-known young politician catch up with the first lady? We'll ask two New York pols. But first, we'll talk to another Republican congressman from Long Island who would like to see the word senator in front of his name -- Bill.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: And, of course, he's Congressman Pete King.

Congressman, you say you're a candidate for the U.S. Senate. You also say you'll drop out of the race if Governor Pataki endorses Congressman Rick Lazio. How serious a candidate are you?

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Well, I'm very serious in that I think I'd be the strongest candidate, and I believe that I could beat Mrs. Clinton in the fall, and my name has been put forward by the national committeeman from New York as a candidate.

The fact is, Bob alluded to, though, in his introduction, we don't have full democracy in the Republican Party in New York state. The fact is, the governor can anoint the candidate. He controls the delegates, he controls the votes. And if Governor Pataki decides to go with Rick Lazio, who, by the way, will be an excellent candidate, if he decides to go with him, I'm not going to do a kamikaze run. I'm not going to divide the party. And at that stage, I will no longer be a candidate. But until the governor actually comes down and sends out the word that Rick Lazio has to be the candidate, I want the people to know that there is a choice.

PRESS: Well, that could be a very short time, of course, Pete King. I don't know whether the governor has your cell phone number. But Giuliani today, when he bowed out, he mentioned Rick Lazio's name. He did not mention yours. It's no secret that Rick Lazio is George Pataki's candidate.

KING: Right.

PRESS: I mean, so what you're saying is that your candidacy, no matter how much you'd like to be a U.S. senator, your candidacy is like one phone call long?

KING: I don't know, maybe two or three phone calls. The fact is, I feel that I owe it to my supporters who have asked me to make this run. I feel strongly about it. But again, I also realize it's important for the party to be united. I think I'm really handling it the right way. Until the deal is actually closed between Pataki and Lazio, I want to be there. Listen, if these guys have a blowup, I want to be there to pick up the pieces and run with it.

NOVAK: Congressman King, I'd like you to hear what Mayor Giuliani said at his press conference where he pulled out today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: I called Governor Pataki, and I called Bill Powers, and I called Joe Bruno (ph), and many other people and I told them that I would -- I would not be able to make the race, and that I would do anything that I could to help them support and assist the candidate that they support and that becomes the candidate of the party.

I called Rick Lazio and told him that if he's the candidate of the party he can count on my help and my support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: It seems like the mayor was calling everybody but me and Bill Press. Did he call you?

KING: No, he didn't. In the first place, ever since I came out for Senator McCain in the primary, I've been persona non grata with many people in the state Republican machine. And that's part of the business. I accept that. And I'm not trying to play a martyr here, I'm saying that I was asked by a number of people throughout the state, a number of organizations, a number of people who care strongly about the Republican Party to put myself forward as a candidate. The national committeeman from New York, Joe Mondelo (ph), has put my name forward. I'm going to stay in the race until the governor says that the election is over, and he has decided to select Congressman Lazio.

Any, by the way, any inference that I might be giving about the selection process in no way reflects on Rick Lazio. If he's the nominee, he's going to be a great candidate, he's going to run a great race.

NOVAK: Congressman King, a long time ago, Senator McCain said of you the only Republicans you sow much loyalty to is the Irish Republican Army, which I think is pretty accurate. Do you think what comes around goes around, and your lack of party loyalty has come home to bite you now?

KING: Bob, I was wondering how long it would take you to bring back that quote. The fact is Senator McCain and I worked very closely together. The fact is that I would be a very strong candidate. And also, the fact is what you consider to be fighting with Republicans, most voters consider to be independent, most people consider it to be that I'm not a party hack and I'm willing to speak out and represent what the great majority of Republicans want.

Remember, when I was attacking Newt Gingrich, they were also saying, oh, King is being disloyal. It turned out I was just about a year and a half ahead of the curve.

NOVAK: Well, seriously, Congressman, Governor Pataki once told me he thought you'd make a terrific candidate, but you had one problem, that you were pro-life, and you couldn't elect somebody who was pro-life in New York anymore. Rick Lazio is not pro-life. Do you think that's a difference?

KING: Yes, actually, I think that is a serious difference. The fact is that Arthur Finklestein and the consultants around Governor Pataki have convinced the governor that the only Republican who can win, basically, is a pro-choice Catholic. And that's how Governor Pataki got the nomination himself in 1994, that's how other nominees have been selected, and that is one of the reasons why I believe they selected Rick Lazio and why he probably will be anointed. But again, I want to emphasize, Rick is going to be a quality candidate if he is the candidate.

PRESS: Congressman, we're going to have to take a break. I think it's a good thing we do because I think I hear your phone ringing. We want to give you a chance to take that call.

And when we come back, we're going to ask the question whether any Republican candidate in New York has a chance against first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton.

And as we go to this break, Governor George Bush today had some kind things to say about Rudy Giuliani, and kind of a backhand slap at Hillary Clinton.

Listen up:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I told Rudy that I understood it was a very difficult decision for him to make, and our prayers are with him, that I understood, that he is my friend, whether he's a candidate or not, for the United States Senate.

I reminded him he needs to be proud of the job he has done as the mayor of New York City. He's got an excellent record as mayor. And now that our party -- it's time for our party to move on, I am confident that the New York Republican Party will nominate a New Yorker who will be able to win the United States Senate race next fall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

And the New York free-for-all to find a Republican candidate for U.S. Senate now that Rudy Guiliani's dropped out of the race. Whether it's Pete King or Rick Lazio, will he be able to unite the party, raise the money and beat Hillary Clinton, or does the first lady have too big of a head start. Assessing the New York Senate race, former Republican Congresswoman Susan Molinari here in Washington with us, and in New York, Democratic Congressman Jerry Nadler -- Bob. NOVAK: Congressman Nadler, I'd like to read your assessment of the race, which I think is pretty accurate, by one of the smartest, I think we can both agree, one of the smartest political analysts in America, Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the chairman of the National Senatorial Committee. Mitch McConnell said, quote, "There is a lot of time left between now and Election Day, and in one sense, it is a more difficult race for Hillary Clinton than it was before, because now it's all about her, and that always works to her disadvantage," unquote.

That's true, isn't it? There's no talk about Rudy's faults; it's all about Hillary's?

NADLER: Well, I think there is a large element of truth to that. I think it's a very difficult race. I think Rick Lazio is going to be a very strong candidate. He can unite, as Rudy Guiliani could, not the Republican and conservative party lines in New York. I think Hillary, there are a lot of right-wing people out in this country who hate the president and the first lady, and thus supply plenty of money for the campaign. And the task of Hillary and the Democrats is going to be to make this a referendum, not on whether you like Hillary Clinton or whether you like Rick Lazio as a person, whether you know anything about Rick Lazio as a person, which most don't at the moment, but a campaign on issues.

Do you want a senator who's going to support federal funding for smaller classes and more classrooms, or a Congressman who voted for very large education cuts? Do you want someone who's going to vote for a targeted tax cut such as the president has proposed and Hillary supports? The Democrats generally support it. Do you want someone who's going to vote for very large, in my opinion, fiscally reckless tax cuts that will bring us to the bad old days of huge deficits, and huge debt, and undermine Social Security and Medicare.

If we can focus on those issues, it's one race. If it's all focused Hillary's personality, it's a different race.

NOVAK: I don't know how you get it on to the issues, Jerry. The Quinnipiac College Poll of just a few days ago, which I think is more important than these horse race polls, is favorable and unfavorable. Of course George Pataki is very favorable: 49 percent favorable, 18 percent unfavorable. Lazio, nobody knows him, 111 percent favorable, 5 percent unfavorable, but look at Mrs. Clinton, 35 percent unfavorable, and that's before the campaign starts. That is a heavy burden to carry, is it not?

NADLER: Well, I think that, you know, we've always said that both Hillary Clinton and Rudy Guiliani are classically polarizing candidates. Polarizing candidates sometimes win elections and sometimes lose elections. Now Lazio, as you said, no one knows, but the fact is that people are going to be faced with very clear choices, because Rick Lazio has cast a whole set of votes in Congress that define where he is at, and they're very different from what Hillary Clinton would do, and that's going to polarize a debate over where do you want to go? And I think -- and I could be wrong, but I don't think so -- I think that the campaign over the next six months is going to eventually focus on the issue, probably really after Labor Day, and that ultimately will determine the outcome of the election.

PRESS: Susan Molinari, I said last year that I thought Rick Lazio was a stronger candidate, would be a stronger candidate against Hillary Clinton.

MOLINARI: Want to change your mind now?

PRESS: No, I still believe that. So I'm not that excited about today's turn of events, but I have to ask you, I mean, you have gone -- let's look at it realistically. You've gone from a superstar to somebody, as Bob points out, that nobody knows, somebody who's got $9 million in the bank versus somebody's who's got now $3 million in the bank, somebody who's been an active candidate to somebody who's starting from scratch. I mean, this is a huge setback for the party, isn't it?

MOLINARI: Look, I would be ridiculous and have no credibility if all of a sudden I said no, it wasn't, because I've been out there saying Rudy Guiliani is the best candidate and could certainly win this race.

And I just have to say for a second I was so proud of him at this press conference today and the decision that he made and the way he came to that decision, and the way he spoke to us, and I think anybody who saw Rudy last night and then today can see why I've just been so crazy about him as a candidate.

That being said, yes, we start from behind the eight ball a little bit, but it is a long time from now to November. I think everybody has pointed out here that Mrs. Clinton does have that polarizing personality and those polarizing ideas. Rick Lazio is somebody that comes from New York, was born and raised in New York, understands the situations, the concerns of New York, and I would bet that while he is not well known now, by the end of this weekend, his name recognition is going to go up by about 25 percent. So, you know...

PRESS: It's certainly jumped today.

MOLINARI: Yes, it did.

PRESS: But at the same time, he is a Congressman, four terms, and he's got a record. And if you look at his record, I mean, this guy is no moderate. He voted 94 percent of the time right down the line with the Contract of America, right down the line with Newt Gingrich. Isn't it going to be easy for me and Hillary to paint him for what he is, a Gingrich clone?

MOLINARI: Oh, stop. You know, this Gingrich thing doesn't work anymore. It's the year 2000. It's the new millennium. Let's try something different, for God sakes.

PRESS: His votes work, his records count, correct?

MOLINARI: Right, his pro-choice record, his pro-gun control record, his pro-family and medical leave record. You know, what was the Contract with America? Balancing the budget, welfare reform? Yes, he does have a record, and I expect he'll run on that.

NOVAK: Congressman Nadler, I think you're a more objective analyst than my friend Bill is.

PRESS: I hope so.

NOVAK: I certainly hope so.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: You know, just looking at the record, you know, Rick Lazio is not my kind of Republican, I'll tell you that. He voted for striker -- the Striker Replacement Bill, for the Brady Bill, on gun control, for family leave, to increase the size of the NEA. The various rating groups all have about 50 percent liberal, 50 percent conservative. How can you call -- how can you attack that?

NADLER: Well, you can attack that by citing some of his specific votes. For example, he hasn't done everything wrong, agreed, but he's done a lot wrong. He voted in 1995 to abolish the Department of Education, He voted to cut Medicare in the 1995 or '6 budget by $270 billion dollars. That was the Gingrich budget. He voted to cut funds -- to cut funds for Clean Water Act enforcement to clean up harbors and rivers by 35 percent. He voted for the largest education cuts in history. Those are votes that are not going to play well in New York.

NOVAK: you may not understand this, it's a little out of your realm, but he is the same thing that Ms. Molinari was -- he's a moderate. Sometimes this way, sometimes that way.

NADLER: Let's put it this way, everybody throws around words like moderates, et cetera. Rick Lazio is a nice person. I like him. He's got a nice personality, but he's not a moderate. He gives a moderate image, but when you look at his votes, it's not a moderate thing. And that's what this campaign is going to be about for the next six months.

NOVAK: What about bills like Striker replacement, and abortion, and family leave and the Brady Bill?

NADLER: As I said, he hasn't been wrong on everything. On abortion, for example, he says he is pro Roe v. Wade, but he voted against Medicaid funding for abortion. He's voted against a lot of things. I don't have a full analysis with me yet.

MOLINARI: You know what, Bill, I've got to tell you, I think it's clear the Democrats have set out what they're going to do. I mean, it's been 10 minutes already and they've gotten the facts machines to go through Rick's record. I think the Democrats are going to make a big mistake if they start out saying it's his record versus -- versus what? Mrs. Clinton doesn't have a record. She's going from never being elected to anything to try to run for the United States Senate. And so I think that is going to backfire on them.

PRESS: Go ahead, Jerry. NADLER: No, I think that you're misunderstanding, Susan. I think what the Democrats are going to say, is the Democrats are going to say, look, when you're electing a senator, you're elect someone who's going to casting a lot of votes. Mrs. Clinton has a record. She's qualified, and we'll go through that. But here is what she wants to do.

MOLINARI: Mrs. Clinton does not have a record.

NADLER: Let me just finish.

Here's what she wants to do. She wants to do this, she wants to do that and the other thing. And Mr. Lazio has shown by his votes which direction he wants to go. Which direction do you, the voter, think is the proper direction? Because there are very clear differences.

PRESS: All right, let me jump in with a real-life test, which is money, OK? Rudy Guiliani, one of his big successes was raising money all over the country, and the money came in for we know what reason. In fact, I read today, Michael Ross, who's a St. Louis banker, and a guy who wrote a check to Giuliani, he's very up front on why he had done it -- quote -- "You could put Mickey Mouse in there, and I would give him money. If he, Giuliani, drops out, the money should go to his successor. Any other course would look bad, and it ultimately help Hillary out.

PRESS: Now these people, all around the country, millions of people who send checks to Giuliani against Hillary, do you really think now that he's dropped out they're going to be dumb enough to write another check?

MOLINARI: Dumb enough to write another check?

PRESS: Yes, they were suckered once. Do you think they're going to be suckered again?

MOLINARI: Wait, Bill, I really don't think you want to phrase the fact that Mayor Giuliani had to drop out of the race because he had prostate cancer as being a sucker. I think that's a little harsh, even for you.

PRESS: What I'm saying, is the money base that was there for Giuliani going to be there for Lazio?

MOLINARI: Of course it's going to be there. That's not going to be a problem. There are going to be people throughout this nation who are going to work probably twice as hard to help Rick raise the money because of the short period of time. I have absolutely no concerns that the money is not going to come in.

NOVAK: I want to ask Jerry Nadler this. You are astute political observer.

NADLER: Thank you.

NOVAK: I want to show you something that Rudy Guiliani said today as he bowed out. Let's listen to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: Somebody who grows from the fact that you confront your limits, you confront your mortality, you realize you're not a Superman, and you're just a human being.

I'm going to think about how I can be better as a person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: That's a different Rudy Guiliani, isn't it? Do you think he's sincere?

NADLER: I think he's sincere. Whether he'll carry out the changes he's implying remains to be seen. Lots of people make resolution. I'm sure he's sincere and he means it. I think that you have to feel for him. And anyone who has a life-threatening illness, it's got to be a very sobering experience and maybe a deflating experience.

NOVAK: OK, we're out of time. Thank you very much, Jerrold Nadler. Thank you very much, Susan Molinari.

MOLINARI: My pleasure. Thank you.

NOVAK: Bill Press and I will be back with closing comments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Bill, Hillary Clinton has been stuck in the polls at 42 percent for months. Rudy's jumped up, he's gone down, but she's at 42 percent. Now against Rick Lazio, she's at 50 percent. Let me make a little prediction: Within two months, she will be back to 42 percent.

PRESS: Bob, you've been saying for months that she's dropping like a rock. I haven't seen it yet. You know what's been happening, Bob?

NOVAK: She's stuck at 42 percent.

PRESS: Well, this is not dropping like a rock, and she's 19 points ahead of Lazio. You know what's been going on? While this soap opera has been going on, Hillary has just kept on trucking. She's been getting the key endorsements, she's getting better as a candidate, she's been to every county in the state. Bob, advantage: Hillary. At this point...

NOVAK: Let me...

PRESS: ... you've got to admit it. She's going to be the next senator.

NOVAK: Let me cite John Zogby, the pollster. There is a bunch of people out there who don't want her as senator, and they could even run me against her and she might be in trouble. PRESS: Well, they'll vote for somebody else. But the most New Yorkers are going to vote for her. I love this race.

From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE. Have a good weekend.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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