TalkBack Live

Straight Pride: Should People Wear Their Sexuality in Public?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like the openness about it. It's just that people can express themselves, be themselves, and no one, you know, thinks it's weird or strange.

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BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: But some people do think it's strange. The rallies, the slogans, the parades: gay pride. And there's a reaction, a back-at-you movement called straight pride. Is straight pride a real cause or is it a disguise for intolerance? Should you wear your sexuality in public?

Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

Do you advertise your sexuality? Do you wear it on a T-shirt, a bumper sticker or parade it down the street?

We've heard about gay pride, but a California counter-movement stressing straight pride is organizing. The question is, does either one have to do with sex or are they all about making political statements?

We'll get into this topic in just a moment, but we have to go to Kyra now in the newsroom for breaking news.

(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)

BATTISTA: All right. Well, joining us first today is Ian Punnett, a syndicated radio talk show host on WGST here in Atlanta. He is also a seminary student at Columbia Theological Seminary.

And Ian, good to see you as always.

IAN PUNNETT, WGST RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Good to be back.

BATTISTA: The reason we're starting with you is because -- well, you kind of started this whole thing. It started on your radio show.

PUNNETT: It did start on my radio show. It started on -- I was filling in on a radio station in San Diego, news radio 600 KOGO. And I was -- a caller said, I've got a topic for you. And she said, I just got reprimanded by my bosses at the company where I work because I have a "straight pride" bumper sticker on, and they determined that it would be only OK for gay pride bumper stickers in the company parking lot but not straight pride stickers.

BATTISTA: And why was that?

PUNNETT: Well, because they determined that straight pride is inflammatory, but gay pride isn't, that to say that you are proud of being straight is just picking a fight and it's going to bring disruption to the company, but if you're saying gay pride, then you're not making a political statement.

BATTISTA: Now was this just sort of an isolated incident or is there a straight pride movement afoot?

PUNNETT: Well, that was the thing. And then literally, I mean, then I was turned over to a couple of Web sites and people started showing us right away that all over California, for example, that people have already begun to sort of claim themselves as straight in the same way that other people claim themselves as gay. And then we started hearing the stories of the backlash of people that saw the straight pride bumper stickers and experienced discrimination, people saying, why would you have that on your car, that's just hate speech? To say that you're straight pride is unnecessary, only gay people get to make a statement claiming pride in their sexuality -- and that began, you know, obviously a series from all over the country...

BATTISTA: I can imagine.

PUNNETT: ... people calling talking about these issues in their office. And where does it end? And who gets the permission to be full of pride?

BATTISTA: And is it a free speech issue, for that matter?

PUNNETT: Well, in the office, of course, technically it's not. I mean, it's free speech when we're talking about the government, but in the office theoretically a boss should be able to tell people how much expression is going to be acceptable or they're going to lose control of the office, and no one will be doing anything except arguing politics.

But in this case, at least, the woman maintained that she went to her bosses and said, this isn't fair. Everybody around me in the parking lot -- she said, I'm not against them, I'm not tearing their bumping stickers off. I'm just saying I'm proud that I'm straight. And what's wrong with that? And they said just by the nature that you're saying it, it's wrong.

BATTISTA: Let's see if we can find out a little bit more about this.

Let me bring someone else into the conversation. Joining us is Robert Regier, a policy analyst in the cultural studies department of the Family Research Council. Rob, thank you very much for joining us.

Now, I know the Family Research Council is not connected with any sort of, you know , straight pride movement. But at the same time, can you tell us what it's all about?

ROBERT REGIER, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: The sign that people are getting tired of all this political activism. The gay activists who -- you know, you can't even say that I'm a -- that someone is a pansy. The pope's not even safe at the Vatican. All this gay activism, what it is doing is turning people against it, and I understand this movement completely.

While it goes beyond pride, I believe, though, and into a happiness, happy that God has created an institution for people to direct their sexual energies. And I completely understand this movement and that people in this country are fed up being bullied around by gay activists: the Boy Scouts, the Vatican, Dr. Laura.

You name it, people are tired of it, and this movement is understandable.

BATTISTA: So are you saying, then, that are people who put this bumper sticker on their car or wear it on a T-shirt or whatever, are they mocking the gay pride movement?

REGIER: I don't know if it's so much mocking, I believe it's a reaction that people are tired of the political correctness of the gay activist movement, and as I said, I think it's just upholding traditional morality of marriage between -- being between one man and one woman. I think it's a good thing.

BATTISTA: I guess another question would be is why -- why would straight people feel it's necessary, I mean, in the sense that do they feel like they're being discriminated against or put down in some way?

REGIER: Yes, indeed. People -- I get reports every day of people feeling discriminated against in the workplace. Our government is trying to change fundamental laws about marriage and civil rights because of gay activist movement. I just think people are tired of it, and that, you know, this is a fun way to express our upholding of traditional morality.

BATTISTA: Is it a fun way, Ian, at someone else's expense, though?

PUNNETT: Well, I think this all comes down to the motivation of the person that's participating in this and what encoded language comes along with saying straight pride, what messages are we really sending. I think that something like that can be fun. I think there are a lot of bumper stickers that go back and forth between positions and it's friendly jiving. Or you can look at gay pride as being every bit the same political statement, and if you're going to allow one, you have to allow all of them.

BATTISTA: But is this -- is this the same in any way as a person wearing a white pride T-shirt into a black rally?

PUNNETT: Well, I would say, again, that that comes down to encoded language, and I think that when we say white pride, we know the subtext of all of those years of what white pride meant. And so I think that would almost across-the-board be considered obnoxious.

But if gay people are going for equality and they say, we just want equality, then if straight is equal to gay, then it seems that both prides should be equal as well. And one shouldn't be considered out-of-line or inflammatory just because you're proud you're straight.

REGIER: Bobbie, may I answer that question, too?

BATTISTA: Yes.

REGIER: I think there's an important point. Your question assumes or implies that homosexual behavior is the same thing as skin color. You know, I've never known anyone to change their skin color, but I have known plenty of people who have changed their sexual behaviors.

This is not the new civil rights movement that Martin Luther King went through. This is about a behavior, a destructive behavior, a harmful one to many people, and sadly gay activists are pushing this on people as if it is normal, it's healthy. And it is not. It cuts years off people's lives. It's very unhealthy. It leads to many diseases, and it goes -- it goes well beyond gay pride. It is a sad lifestyle.

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here quickly -- Ken.

KEN: Excuse me. I think the Family Research Council is one of the most right-wing organizations, most anti-gay, and most homophobic organizations (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And this is a perfect example as why, if he puts under the banner of straight pride what he is believing, that's what makes the gay pride -- us in the gap pride so upset about it, because you're opening up a whole banner of people who are anti- gay. It's not supporting straight rights. It's supporting the anti- gay rights. And they're against gay pride.

Gay pride is the only thing that we have in the gay-lesbian community that is a defense against homophobia. It gives us the ability...

REGIER: Homophobia...

KEN: ... to get and be proud of ourselves without being able to be put back in the closet.

People like this gentleman over here wants to nail the closet shut and not let us out.

REGIER: There's nothing proud about the gay lifestyle.

KEN: I'm sorry -- it is.

REGIER: It's a sad lifestyle. And because I love all people...

PUNNETT: Well, you know...

REGIER: ... because I love all people, I think it would be hateful of me not to share the truth about the gay lifestyle.

I don't hate you, sir. I don't hate homosexuals. I love them. I love all people, and because of...

KEN: You are loving us to death is what you're doing.

PUNNETT: I think there's a difference here. And I just think -- I think this is something which we experienced all over the country at various times with gay pride parades. There's a difference between pride and power. And when somebody becomes an exhibition of one's power, then it's -- I think it's -- I think everybody would agree it gets pretty obnoxious.

I've talked about this on the radio before, when gay pride parades turn into 20 women walking down the street topless defying arrest, it's not pride then, we are talking -- let me just finish the thought -- we are talking about power, it becomes an expression of, we can do this and you can't stop us, and I think that this -- whether we are talking about gay pride, or we're talking about straight pride, are we talking about gay power, are we talking about straight power?

KEN: Let me answer your question. If you are straight you cannot be fired from your job because you were born straight. You cannot be...

REGIER: That's not true.

KEN: You cannot be banned from your family because you are born a gay or not, or if you're born straight. There are too many people like Dr. Laura, the -- even the pope, the Southern Baptist Conference who say that we should not even exist. And believe me, so many people think they are experts of the gay community. I'm a gay person, ask me and my -- and the people out here.

What gay pride is to me is not so much marching in the streets, it's the ability to tell someone you love, your family, who you are and you are not in disguise. If you've been with someone for 20 years, share it with your family, be able to go to the hospital...

PUNNETT: Totally.

KEN: ... and tell that person that you have a partner who is your next of kin, not necessarily marching the streets.

BATTISTA: Let me...

PUNNETT: But that has nothing to do with 20 topless women walking down the street, or somebody who's gay...

BATTISTA: Right.

PUNNETT: ... walking with a big phallic symbol in their underwear down the middle of the street...

REGIER: Right.

PUNNETT: ... and which has nothing to do with pride.

KEN: Unfortunately, that's the stereotypes that keeps sometimes so many people in the closets and that's what we were trying to break out of...

PUNNETT: Well, then I wouldn't -- I would discourage that.

KEN: ... is to be proud to be who we are.

PUNNETT: Right. I would discourage that.

BATTISTA: Let me jump in here, because we have to take a quick break.

KEN: I witness straight people doing the same thing.

BATTISTA: As we do, some e-mail that's come in, Steve in New York says: "Why would straight people want to march to celebrate their already privileged position? A straight pride parade would be just another display of hatred."

And Scott in California says: "Is the straight pride movement really new? Straight people flaunt their sexuality every day. Every time I look around I see a straight couple holding hands, kissing. Perhaps gays and lesbians should stop their once a year celebration and flaunt their sexuality like their straight counterparts."

We will be back in just a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back.

Let me bring in another voice into this conversation, David Smith is with us, communications director for the Human Rights Campaign, America's largest gay and lesbian organization.

David, welcome to the show.

DAVID SMITH, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: Hi, Bobbie. Thanks for having me.

BATTISTA: OK, the question for you that I think a lot of people have, if gay people are allowed to express their pride, then why can't straight people do the same?

SMITH: Well, pride is a very good thing and I certainly know a lot of proud heterosexuals, so I don't think that's the issue. I think -- it's been discussed in your program earlier the issue focuses on motive, what are the motive of the people that are pushing this.

And one of the leading groups sponsoring this, something -- they have a Web site called Gaypridewear, and they sell products and, you know, they are very clear about their anti-gay agenda, they say "allowing the state to approve of homosexual conduct would violate the whole meaning of civil rights and would greatly endanger children, taxpayers, business owners," blah, blah, blah.

So I think that the motive here is distinctly anti-gay, they mean to do harm to the gay and lesbian civil rights movement. I think they are, you know, in lock step with your other guest here, Robert Hooha (ph) from the Family Research Council, spewing all that nonsense about lifestyle, this, that and the other thing.

You know, gay people simply want to, you know, live in existence in a society from -- free from discrimination, free from prejudice. We want to be equal, we're working hard for that. Over the years it is come down to just being visible and letting people know who we are.

You know, if you are straight, think of how many times you give a clue each day to your fellow co-workers, friends that you are straight, you have a picture of your wife and kids on the table, you have a wedding ring, you talk about going to a ball game with your son and your wife.

Now just think if a gay person says the same thing, that I, you know, had some friends over with my partner of, you know, the same-sex and apparently that person is considered an activist and is engaging in some sort of political act just by talking about his or her life. So it comes down to motive. It sounds like it's anti-gay to me and that's why I would be suspect of it.

BATTISTA: Rob.

REGIER: Well, I think it's a great movement and I do think it's possible for gays to change and we should be encouraging them. We shouldn't be encouraging pride in a lifestyle that would cut off years off David Smith's life. I think we should be witnessing...

SMITH: Robert, don't lie like that.

REGIER: ... to David Smith...

SMITH: Don't lie to the listeners of TALKBACK LIVE. There is nothing...

REGIER: Well, you can interrupt me all you want, David, but...

SMITH: There is no evidence...

REGIER: You can interrupt me all you want, but the truth...

SMITH: You use these bogus studies...

REGIER: ... of it stands that AIDS can change...

SMITH: ... that have no bearing on the truth.

REGIER: And because I care about you, David Smith, I want you to change.

SMITH: Robert, you don't care about anything to do about gay people. REGIER: Come on.

BATTISTA: Hold on let me -- OK, David, hold on, let me...

SMITH: And these bogus studies that you use...

BATTISTA: David, in fairness...

SMITH: You're lying.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: David, hold on, now hold on, in fairness, let me let Rob talk and then you can answer

SMITH: Sure, yes.

REGIER: Yes, and hopefully he won't interrupt anymore. He's good at doing that, but I will add that we do this out of love. This is not out of hatred for anybody, this is because we love all people, white, black, red, it doesn't matter, men, women.

We love all people and we want to share the truth with them that homosexuality is a destructive lifestyle. If we hated them, we wouldn't tell them anything about it. But we do know that it is destructive, we do know that it cuts years off people's lives and we do know it's harmful in ways of domestic violence and different diseases, and also that it -- simply it's wrong.

SMITH: OK, Bobbie...

BATTISTA: I...

SMITH: Can I step in, Bobbie?

BATTISTA: Yes.

SMITH: Just real quick. What this gentleman just told your listeners is complete fiction, it's mythology that he and his organization has developed to do harm to lesbian and gay people.

REGIER: Oh, man.

SMITH: There is nothing about being gay or lesbian that -- quote, unquote -- "is unhealthy or takes years off your life." This is just bogus stuff that you put out every time you get a microphone stuffed in your face and it's just wrong.

BATTISTA: Let me have the...

SMITH: And it's mean. It's just mean-spirited. Anybody listening to this program knows that you hate gay people. Why don't you just admit it?

(CROSSTALK)

REGIER: Because I have a different point of view, I've got to be a hater?

BATTISTA: I have to admit I'm hearing things I've never heard before, but let me have Ian step in.

PUNNETT: I just want to jump in here and say, again, it comes down to a point where -- and remember, this is in office context. This isn't people on the street, and I think motive does have a lot to do with it. I think if you're running in office, you have a right to say, we have no political speech, and/or we'll have all political speech, but not designate who gets to have political speech within the office.

The question it seems is, which side represents political speech? Or who gets to -- how do these get categorized? I think that if we're going to talk about the Bible, let me say I believe that when we say, "Judge not, lest we be judged," we can that one or two ways. We can say, "Judge not, lest we be judged," and say, that means you should never say anything about anybody. Or it means if you're going to speak, you have to be willing to hear back what somebody is going to say based on what you just said.

(APPLAUSE)

REGIER: Great point.

PUNNETT: And so I mean, I think it's fair. I think it works in a marriage. It works in any relationship. It should work in an office context. It should work anywhere, that if I'm going to say something, I have to be willing to hear what you're going to say in response.

SMITH: Bobbie, I don't disagree with that. And the fact is, again, in general, I don't think there's anything wrong with this. I would just question the motives. If there is an anti-gay motive behind it, if you're trying to send a message that you actually don't like gay people by wearing a straight pride bumper sticker or T-shirt, you know, that's something that needs to be explored. But if you have pride in yourself about who you are, that's a positive thing. So I don't think -- I disagree.

PUNNETT: But is it possible to have a "gay pride" bumper sticker and mean that you're anti-heterosexual people?

SMITH: No. And, sir, you need to look at the historical pattern of discrimination here. I mean, this is very similar to David Duke's National Association for the Advancement of White People. Basically what they're doing...

PUNNETT: It's not the same thing.

SMITH: Yes it is. They are communicating a political message, and the fact is, is it's not equal.

(CROSSTALK)

SMITH: There's not a historical pattern of discrimination against straight people. One of the viewer's e-mail said it, you know, we live straight pride every day of our lives -- on television, in advertising, in walking down the street. You know, two gay people walk down the street hand in hand, they get looked at. A straight person walks down the street, nothing happens.

REGIER: There is a growing pattern of discrimination against heterosexuals now.

SMITH: We live in a society that is based on straight pride.

BATTISTA: I've got to take another break at this time. And as we do, we invite you to take part in our TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at CNN.com/TALKBACK. Today's question, "Is the "straight pride" movement legitimate, intolerant or both? We'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: A 1999 Gallup poll shows that half of all Americans think homosexuality between consenting adults should be legal, up from 33 percent in 1987.

Let me go to the audience quickly here while I can get them in.

Chad, go ahead.

CHAD: Yes, I was just saying that movements are usually for the minorities. Straight people, we're the majority so that we don't have to project our views on other people, but the gays in our society are trying to get acceptance. So I think that that's the reason for them to have a movement, and -- yes.

BATTISTA: And you're thinking that the movement for straight pride is confrontational? Is it just there to be confrontational?

CHAD: Yes, I think it's just that anti-gay pride movement?

BATTISTA: Al.

AL: Yes, I was just saying that, you have a right to be for whatever you want to, but when they talked about the workplace, they talked about two issues -- they talked about the workplace and they talk about race. Well, first of all, if you're white and you want to wear a T-shirt that says "I'm proud to be white," I don't have a problem with that, and I think a lot of African-Americans don't have a problem with that. I think the problem becomes when one group starts to say that they're better than another or they start treating another one badly.

(APPLAUSE)

AL: And as far as the workplace is concerned, it's not an issue of sexual orientation at work. If you're being treated unfairly because of your sexual orientation, you have a complaint, but the bottom line is, you should be professional at work, whether you're straight, gay or whatever. You shouldn't be displaying your emotions or your physical attraction with somebody else, so it's not professional. So it really has nothing to do with anybody's sexual orientation.

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: Did you want to comment on that quickly, Rob, or?

REGIER: Yes. Nobody is saying anybody is better than somebody else. You know, I have my problems, too, and mine are no different than the homosexual problem. I think they all are things we need to correct. I think God offers his grace and forgiveness to all people. I'm fallen just like anybody else. We're not better than anyone else. We're just saying that there is a better way to live, that we know science and medicine tells us, we knows what nature tells us about this behavior, and we should discourage it.

PUNNETT: I want to ask a question of Ken, because I know here in the audience here, Ken, who spoke earlier, if -- who would be the groups then that would be allowed to have? And, I mean, I mean that not in an obnoxious way. The way you look at it, who are the people that would be allowed to have pride? If straight people can't, who does?

KEN: I think, you know, anybody can have pride. But again, it's not just the word "pride," it's the positioning of the word pride. It's like white pride against black pride. White pride became a more radical group because people gathered under its banner. To me, I think that the whole idea of straight pride isn't being proud of being straight, it's being proud of being anti-gay.

PUNNETT: Yes, exactly.

KEN: And that's where it becomes more of an issue. And again, even in my neighborhood, I'm president of a group called NAGS in Northlake, Atlanta. And we have people who cannot -- they had rainbow bumper sticker, and they had rocks thrown at them because of that. My own state representative, senator in my group, is homophobic. We have a fight to go after. We have a reason to be proud.

And I go back to one step again, because we need to be proud. If we don't, we will remain in our own internal homophobia. We've been taught to be ashamed of ourselves all of our lives. And pride, gay pride, is to be proud not to be ashamed.

PUNNETT: Can you understand, though, why some people feel like they're being told they should be ashamed of who they are, too? I mean, can you understand why a lot of people who are -- you might consider to be the opposition don't feel like they are the opposition, or somebody who's heterosexual, or somebody who's Christian, that they are the enemies, and that....

KEN: It's not an enemy. Don't you think it's inflammatory at one point? When I first heard this, I thought it was real silly...

PUNNETT: But don't they have the right to be proud? KEN: But in Northern Ireland, if you say are you Catholic proud -- or, I mean pride -- or if you're Protestant Pride, it causes problem. And that's what I'm saying. It's -- they are -- not because they are proud of being Catholic or proud of being Protestant or Catholic -- it's that they are trying to be anti something else.

(CROSSTALK)

SMITH: Could I just jump in here real quick? Could I just jump in real quick?

BATTISTA: Yes, go ahead.

SMITH: The fact is, Bobbie, everybody on Earth has the right to be a proud anti-gay bigot like Robert, so that's not a problem.

REGIER: Oh, my goodness.

SMITH: So that's not a problem. But let's look at society today.

REGIER: I'm tolerant, David.

SMITH: Let's look at society today. It's against the law for gay people to serve in the military. It's against the law for gay people to get married -- and, you know, how many knows -- I mean, you can't even get married anyway. But they decided to make laws against it, you know, just in case one state decided to. There's now a law that prevents gay people from serving in the Boy Scouts, you know, as a Boy Scout.

Now, come on, we are living in a society where public policy is now starting to turn against us, where there's public policy that treats gay people unequally in our society.

REGIER: That's not true.

SMITH: And we have to actively work to counter that, as well as work to create laws and policy that treats gay people equally. It's just natural that any group of people with self-esteem and dignity would want to achieve the same status in society as the majority.

REGIER: That's just all not true. This whole notion that this is somehow the same thing as black civil rights movement or religious civil rights is absurd. Notice just because I disagree with David Smith, all of the sudden I'm a hater. And he's comparing me to David Duke.

SMITH: You are spreading lies, Robert. That's why I'm angry with you.

REGIER: That's not true. You are the one spreading lies. You're selling people down the river, and telling them that they're...

(CROSSTALK) SMITH: Well, prove anything that you're saying. And you can't. You come up with bogus studies that you guys invent to hurt gay people. And you should just admit it. Just admit that you hate gay people. Everybody would be much more respectful of your position.

REGIER: Is everyone seeing the tolerance, everyone feel the tolerance coming off David Smith? And he's the one preaching tolerance.

SMITH: I do not tolerate your lies. I do not tolerate your lies.

BATTISTA: We've got to...

REGIER: You call them lies, but they are the truth.

SMITH: They are the lies. And you know it. And so does the audience.

BATTISTA: I've got to -- gentlemen, I've got to take another break at this time.

And Robert Regier, thank you very much for joining us. David Smith, thank you as well.

Still ahead: the fine line between pride and insult. We will continue our discussion here in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: If you in the Atlanta area, and you'd like to be part of our live studio audience. For free tickets, call 1-800-410-4266.

We are back here. And some e-mails to CNN during the break. Eric in North Carolina say: "Until I was a teenager, I didn't realize there were gay people like myself in this huge, diverse world. Straight pride is somewhat redundant." Wayne in Nevada says: "Why does the gay rights movement demand us be tolerant of them, yet they do not want us to be tolerate of straight people?"

Welcome back. We are talking about gay pride and straight pride. Joining us now, Richard Goldstein, executive editor of the "Village Voice," and Blanquita Cullum, a conservative radio talk show host for "Radio America."

Welcome to both of you. This has been raging during the commercial breaks, I have to say. But why does anyone's sexuality need to be displayed on a T-shirt for whatever reason?

RICHARD GOLDSTEIN, "VILLAGE VOICE": Well, I think it's just -- oh, sorry.

BLANQUITA CULLUM, TALK SHOW HOST, "RADIO AMERICA": Well, frankly, it's the First Amendment. You can display anything you want to. I mean, that's the beauty of the First Amendment. You have the First Amendment right to be able to say whatever you want to, unless it's call for insurrection, or say "fire" in a crowded theater. But if you are going to have straight pride, you can have gay pride. If you can be black, you can be white. At some point, we have to get on with it here and have some mutual respect, and allow each other to have a difference of opinion, for crying out loud.

We are not always going to agree with each other. I don't know what this myth is that, you know, you're going to have a gay person always agree with a heterosexual or vice versa. But that's not the point. We have to respect each other.

GOLDSTEIN: Well, that's what I -- that is what actually concerns me. You know, I agree that we have to be respectful. I think we have a civic culture in this country. It's not love thy neighbor, it's tolerate thy neighbor. You may not like the way he lives, you may not like what he believes, but you don't insult him in the hallway.

. And what I am concerned with is a pattern of hate speech -- that this is kind of on the border line of -- that actually singles out certain groups for abuse. For example, I noticed that Mr. Regier said you can't even say that someone is a "pansy." Well, you know what, that is hate speech. It's no different from the word "Kike."

CULLUM: But you know what really, you have a problem...

GOLDSTEIN: It's the same epithet. And my problem -- my point is that some groups are subject to that and others are not.

CULLUM: Well what do you have a problem...

GOLDSTEIN: Blacks are subject to it and whites are not. Women are subject to it and men are not. Gays are subject to it and Jews are not. And that is where the problem lies.

CULLUM: No. And you know what, what I think is so interesting about the left is they used to worry about censorship. This is censorship.

GOLDSTEIN: I am not talking about censorship.

CULLUM: And think -- oh, yes it is. Hate speech can be whatever is politically protect in the season.

GOLDSTEIN: I am not saying the government should censoring this. I'm not saying it should thrown off the air. I'm saying it's wrong, not that it should be censored.

CULLUM: I'm saying that we're creating a vulcanization that people are afraid to hear things, and see things.

PUNNETT: But pansy is a great example, actually, of where we are with this.

GOLDSTEIN: You like that word, huh?

PUNNETT: No, I just think it's an interesting word.

GOLDSTEIN: Well, do you think -- would you say to a gay friend of yours at a barbecue?

PUNNETT: Can you let me finish a sentence, come on. You don't even know where I'm going with this.

GOLDSTEIN: I'm asking you a question.

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: Well, you don't care about my answer. You have already shown you don't care about my answer.

GOLDSTEIN: Would you say that to a gay person?

PUNNETT: Oh, would you just hang on for a second?

BATTISTA: I'm not sure that's the point you were trying to make, Ken.

PUNNETT: This came up in the New York campaign. Rick Lazio used the word "pansy" in a context...

GOLDSTEIN: Yes, I was the reporter who reported that.

PUNNETT: OK, then never mind then. I don't have to tell you anything. But I can the other people who didn't know the story? Can I tell the people that hadn't heard it?

GOLDSTEIN: You have a show, you know, why don't you wait for your show? He used it in an interview with CBS news on national television. No one made a comment about it. No newspaper reported it. No one noticed it. It floated right by. This Hillary Clinton comment from 26 years

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Richard, can I? I'd like you to hold. Let me let Ian have a say something here before he is misinterpreted.

PUNNETT: I am just trying to -- I'm trying to prove to you that the reason why -- for those of you that don't the story, Rick Lazio made a comment. It was on tape back in February. It got filed at CBS. They did not air it because the producer and CBS did not feel like.

GOLDSTEIN: It did air.

PUNNETT: No, it didn't air back in February.

GOLDSTEIN: It did air.

PUNNETT: It only aired recently when they went back into the archives to pull up the tape because they needed Rick Lazio talking about campaigns, and he pulled up a campaign.

GOLDSTEIN: They aired it without a comment.

CULLUM: Guys, could I say something?

BATTISTA: Hold on.

PUNNETT: The point is that the idea was, the producer,-- everybody connected with it, including Rick Lazio never intended it as an anti-gay comment. It was only -- it was already whipped up as anti-gay when all he was saying is, I don't want to be a pushover. And then there's nobody here's in the audience that would say, that if you pansy, you automatically mean gay.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Richard, is it possible -- but...

GOLDSTEIN: It says it's an insult for homosexuals.

PUNNETT: But I looked it -- I take that challenge. I looked it up. It's in the fourth or fifth definition of the word. You get down there long enough.

(CROSSTALK)

But before that...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: I have to say -- let me get Blanquita in here.

PUNNETT: It says -- it talks about not being about a pushover. It doesn't say gay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) using that word, Mr. Punnett.

BATTISTA: Let me get Blanquita in here. Go ahead.

CULLUM: I hate to break in -- I hate to break in between the boys, but they don't remember Lenny Bruce. Remember the old joke George Carlin talked about, the seven dirty words on radio -- I've worked in radio and television my whole life since I've been 20 years old -- and the words we couldn't use. You know, you start making some things so important because you can't say them or you can't do them. You create hate right there.

And in fact, that's the beauty of this country, is that you can say things and you can have things that you don't agree with and you don't believe in. And that's part of the Constitution.

BATTISTA: And...

(CROSSTALK)

CULLUM: ... I'll be glad when people get their head out of their genitalia and start living together and trying to do something great for this county instead of worrying about their sex organs.

GOLDSTEIN: That's great. Let me tell you what you're defending, Blanquita. You turn on "Don Imus in the Morning"...

CULLUM: The First Amendment.

GOLDSTEIN: The First Amendment says, "Government shall make no law..."

Let me -- let me tell you what you're defending here. You turn on "Imus in the Morning" -- he will tell you that Sammy Davis Jr. is a one-eyed lawn jockey. He will call Johnnie Cochran Chicken Wing Johnnie. He will call Patrick Ewing Mighty Joe Young.

You buy the bestselling album in this country, by Eminem...

CULLUM: And you know what I just said?

GOLDSTEIN: ... and this is what is in it.

CULLUM: And you know what I just said? I defend you!

GOLDSTEIN: He will say -- he will say...

CULLUM: And I defend the First Amendment, which says...

GOLDSTEIN: Can I tell you what actually this is about?

CULLUM: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) freedom of speech which is not necessarily popular speech.

GOLDSTEIN: That's right...

BATTISTA: But I think...

(CROSSTALK)

Can I jump in here, though, because I think Richard is touching on something? I mean, Blanquita, you're right. Everyone has the right to say whatever they want to say.

CULLUM: And you have the right not to listen.

BATTISTA: But where -- where are we going that so many people, that that we are engaging in such incivility toward, you know, each other because there's something about that group or that person we don't like?

PUNNETT: Well, you know...

BATTISTA: And it is not a sign -- it's not a good sign of things to come.

CULLUM: Bobbie, what's the difference between this and then being able to watch, let's say, "South Park," being able to watch someone like Chris Rock, listen to Louis Farrakhan, listen to David Duke.

BATTISTA: I think humor stands apart. CULLUM: They all...

BATTISTA: I think when it's used in terms of parody.

CULLUM: Well, then what? Are we going to make a jock every time we say sex pride, ha-ha? Or safe pride, ha-ha? Or white pride?

GOLDSTEIN: Blanquita, do you think -- can I -- let me ask you something. Do you think this is funny? This is Eminem from the bestselling album.

"In a couple of minutes that bottle of Guinness is finished. You are now allowed to officially slap bitches."

Do you think that's funny? That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

CULLUM: No, but I will tell you what I tell my audience. I tell my audience, if you don't like that speech, turn it off. If you don't like that speech, don't buy it. If you don't like it, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

GOLDSTEIN: Many people like it. That's the problem.

CULLUM: Be an activist and not a wimp. Don't walk around with a chip on your shoulders.

BATTISTA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

GOLDSTEIN: It's the popularity that's the problem.

BATTISTA: Eminem -- Eminem is the most popular singer right now. So, that doesn't seem to work too well. We'll be back in just a moment.

A proposed Oregon initiative would restrict schools from sanctioning homosexuality. The initiative would take away all or part of the school's state funding if it were found to violate the law.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: A couple of e-mails here quickly that came in. Marlon (ph) in Missouri says: "I am not proud that I'm gay. I can't take credit for my gayness. I give that credit to a kind and loving God who created me. I'm proud that I'm able to survive and prosper in an oppressive heterosexist society."

Keith in Louisiana says: "Loving all people involves accepting other's choices and celebrating differences. To call one lifestyle wrong or disgraceful is to be shortsighted and opinionated. The only disgusting human quality is ignorance."

Ian, you wanted to make a point.

PUNNETT: Yes, I -- I want to go and take a quick poll in the audience, because I think that so much of what we're talking about is a battle for words and what words mean. And I did a radio show on this, when it came up, and I asked just gay people: Tell me whether you're offended by the word "pansy." The majority of them said, hey, I'm gay and I'm not a pansy, and I associate pansy with being somebody that's a doormat, that anybody can walk on over. And who wants their kids to be like that?

So let me ask who here, when you hear pansy, automatically think gay?

OK. I really mean it. Anybody thinks -- all right. Who here hears "pansy" and thinks weak and able to be dominated easily?

(APPLAUSE)

GOLDSTEIN: Well, you're wrong. That's not what the word means. That's just not what the word means.

BATTISTA: I guess it means different...

GOLDSTEIN: If you go to Webster's -- if you go to Webster's dictionary, it says it means a flower and it means -- it's an insulting term for homosexuals. That it's entered the general speech to mean weakling shows you the power and ubiquity of homophobia. And you shouldn't use that word.

BATTISTA: I've got to take another break. Back in a moment.

The Episcopalian Church rejected a drive by gay rights advocates to formally bless same-sex unions, but for the first time the church officially acknowledged homosexual couples in the church and declared that they will be held to the same standard of love and fidelity expected of married couples.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: A quick look at our viewer vote poll here. The question was: Is straight pride legitimate, intolerant, or both? It's pretty evenly split there, legitimate 42 percent, intolerant 49 percent, both 10 percent.

Blanquita, let me get you back in the conversation here. Do you want to make another point before we run out of time?

CULLUM: Yes, I really do. I feel like when you sit there and you are so anxious to limit someone else's ability to express themselves, or speech, whatever position they take, we are going to create an environment where secret societies will be formed and true hate speech will be discussed. It's better to have it out on the table and it's better to grow up and start having a little mutual respect. You're not always going to agree with your neighbor, but it doesn't mean that you can't tolerate them. I'd really like to see a society where...

GOLDSTEIN: Blanquita...

CULLUM: ... we are not focused so much on sex, we're focused in trying to bring the strength of the country back together by working together and not being Balkanized. I want a lot of people out there to grow up, get over it...

GOLDSTEIN: Blanquita, I am grown up.

CULLUM: ... and not have such a big chip on their shoulders...

GOLDSTEIN: I am an adult.

CULLUM: ... and let people have another way of thinking.

GOLDSTEIN: I am enough of an adult to know what these words mean, and let me tell you something...

CULLUM: In your opinion.

GOLDSTEIN: ... I support the right of people to say these things, I support their freedom to do so. But the First Amendment doesn't require people to remain silent in the face of outrage.

CULLUM: Of course not.

GOLDSTEIN: And if you don't speak up, speak out against this hate speech and stop it by letting these stations know what you think about it...

CULLUM: Well...

GOLDSTEIN: ... then you will actually destroy the civic culture that holds this country together.

CULLUM: Richard, that's -- Richard, somebody else may not listen to that...

BATTISTA: Let me go...

CULLUM: ... and they may look at your speech as hate speech.

BATTISTA: Let me go quickly to Ian here.

PUNNETT: I'd just say, literally, I think we all know this, there are -- based on the same book, the Bible, there are hundreds of different religions and different ways of looking at it. Were it only so easy that words on a page dictated meaning, we have to take context.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLDSTEIN: Words have meaning.

PUNNETT: You have to take context too.

GOLDSTEIN: An epithet isn't...

BATTISTA: We have to go. We have to go. I'm sorry, Richard. Richard Goldstein, Blanquita Cullum, and Ian Punnett, thank you all very much for joining us.

PUNNETT: Thank you.

BATTISTA: We will see you again tomorrow at 3:00 for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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