TalkBack Live

How Ethical Is PETA Being Toward Rudy Giuliani?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: Does this billboard go overboard?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK CITY: I think it's highly objectionable and I also think it gives an incorrect message. I mean, milk is healthy, and milk has absolutely nothing to do with why I have prostate cancer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: The ad produced for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals mocks the diary's industry "got milk" campaign. But how ethical is the ad?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRUCE FRIEDRICH, PETA SPOKESMAN: We are not trying to win popularity contests, we're trying to raise awareness about the fact that if you're consuming diary products, if you're eating meat, you are supporting animal abuse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't appreciate the comments. I've got prostate cancer, that's something that's not to be joked around about, so I kind of found the billboard a little offensive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRIEDRICH: We're going to do a series of seven ads, so we'll also have one, "got osteoporosis," "got fat," "got allergies," that sort of thing. "Got breast cancer" is actually the next one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: I also think that they are violating the civil rights law in New York, which says that you can't use someone for commercial purposes without getting their permission.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Should PETA's tactics be curtailed, or is all fair in the group's war against cruelty to animals?

Good afternoon, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.

The controversial PETA billboards featuring New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani came down in Wisconsin over the weekend after the mayor complained that he didn't give the animal rights group permission to use his likeness. The mayor is considering a lawsuit now against PETA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: First of all, they give the impression that I support them, I don't -- that's what the billboard does. They give the impression that there's a connection between drinking milk and prostate cancer, which is not true and largely disputed. And they frighten people about a product that is a good product. Why are they doing it? They're not doing it because they care about cancer, this is not the American Cancer Association. They are worried about the cows, their motive for this is worrying about cows, not worrying about human beings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: We will continue here in just a moment.

But first, to Lou Waters in the newsroom.

(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)

BATTISTA: All right, Lou, thanks very much.

Joining us now is Bruce Friedrich, vegetarian campaign coordinator for PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

Bruce, thanks for joining us today.

FRIEDRICH: Thank you very much for the invitation.

BATTISTA: Let's backtrack for just a moment. Why did you use Mayor Giuliani in this ad campaign?

FRIEDRICH: Sure. Well, the dairy industry spends hundreds of millions of dollars annually promoting a product that's horrible for human health, that's environmentally catastrophic, and that promotes cruelty both to the cows and to their veal calf babies. So we have a campaign which people can learn all about on our Dumpdairy.com Web site trying to counteract some of that, and we used Mayor Giuliani simply because he has prostate cancer, which is directly linked to dairy consumption.

BATTISTA: Well, why didn't you get his permission first? Was he aware of the campaign in any way, shape, or form?

FRIEDRICH: Well, we did send him both the advertisement and the billboard in advance and solicited his comments, and we didn't hear anything back from him.

BATTISTA: Did you consider that it might be insensitive to the mayor?

FRIEDRICH: Well, the person who conceived this campaign is PETA's president, Ingrid Newkirk, and she conceived the campaign earlier this year after her own father died of prostate cancer. This is a disease -- 180,000 men are going to be diagnosed with it this year, more than 30,000 men are going to die of it this year, and one of the very direct links is prostate cancer. Ingrid decided to take it upon herself as a personal cause to let people know that if they are consuming diary products, one of the things they are doing in addition to promoting cruelty to animals is that they are, in fact, upping the risk of prostate cancer and a variety of other ailments.

BATTISTA: But you don't know that for sure. I mean, in other words, you are suggesting in that campaign that the mayor's prostate cancer was brought on by dairy products. I mean, do you even know if he drinks milk?

FRIEDRICH: Well, we do know that he drinks milk, and we do know that the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence is that dairy consumption is linked not just to prostate cancer, but to a variety of other cancers. If you go to the American Cancer Society Web site they will tell you that as much cancer is caused by diet as is caused by smoking, and their top two recommendations for decreasing your risk, the first one is eat plant-based vegetarian foods, the second one is cut back on high fat, especially animal source foods, so we have the science very much on our side on this one.

BATTISTA: Well, we might also add, as I understand it, I believe that Mayor Giuliani's father also had prostate cancer, so actually genetics may play a bigger role than any other environmental factors or foods that he ate.

FRIEDRICH: Well, I wonder, because oftentimes the foods that people eat are passed down from generation to generation, so it's quite possible that Giuliani grew up in a family that was serving a lot of high fat, high cholesterol foods, like diary products. You know, the Harvard Medical School released a report earlier this year indicating that as few as two and a half servings per day of dairy products, that's like a bowl of ice cream, or three slices of cheese pizza, will increase your risk by 30 percent of contracting prostate cancer. That's pretty significant. Put in human terms, 180,000 people contract the disease, that's 60,000 of them who don't have to.

BATTISTA: So how many studies are you actually basing your information on, just the one?

FRIEDRICH: No, no, all of them. And in fact, in the "British Journal of Cancer" earlier this year, the World Cancer Research Fund distilled the evidence from all of the population studies and said that the link is absolutely clear. At Oxford University earlier this year, they did yet another clinical study and they came out with, the more dairy products you consume, the higher your rate for prostate cancer. And again, the American Cancer Society when they're talking about all types of cancer say that diet causes as much cancer as does smoking, and their top two recommendations are eat plant-based foods and cut back on high fat, especially animal foods, so that's very important for people to realize.

Of course, we also want to talk about the animal cruelty involved, the fact that these cows are treated like milk machines, they're pumped full of hormones, they're shipped to the slaughterhouse at a fraction of their natural lifespan, and every single one of the veal calves who is slaughtered in this country every year, every single one of them comes from dairy cows. Cows give milk for the same reason humans do, for their babies.

BATTISTA: And that is largely the agenda of PETA, we might add.

FRIEDRICH: Sure.

BATTISTA: Let me bring in Dr. Gilbert Ross, who is executive director and medical director of the American Council on Science and Health.

Dr. Ross, Bruce just quoted a bunch of studies there. I mean, is there a link between prostate cancer and dairy products?

DR. GILBERT ROSS, AMERICAN COUNCIL ON SCIENCE AND HEALTH: I've reviewed the data on this extensibly. There are some studies that link in a slight way the consumption of animal fats and dairy products to prostate cancer. There are many other studies which refute such a link. So I would say the body of scientific evidence is not in on that fact yet, and I think that Mr. Friedrich overstated the case against the dairy products substantially.

BATTISTA: So the bottom line is we really don't know if there's a connection, so if we accept that, is PETA necessarily wrong to warn people that there might be a connection?

ROSS: Well, no, I wouldn't say that they are wrong to warn people that there might be a connection, but everything is a risk. We could warn people about potential connections -- if you do enough studies on enough potential dietary and nutritional factors, looking at enough cancers, by statistics alone you'll find some links with a number of them, which will not be borne out by further rigorous studies. Are we supposed to not eat anything at all that some group or another thinks might be dangerous?

Also, milk has -- dairy products have substantial benefits to the population as a whole. Calcium and vitamin D are important nutrients. High-quality protein. To prevent osteoporosis, it's probably the single-most important factor.

BATTISTA: Let me read a statement from the National Diary Council. They declined an invitation to join today's discussion. However, the council issued a statement that says the following: "The Physician's Health Study, which PETA uses as the backbone for its allegations about milk and prostate cancer, is a very preliminary 'observational' study, which does not show a cause-and-effect relationship. The authors specifically caution within the text of the study that men should not eat less dairy or drink less milk. In fact, the authors clearly state that more research is needed to confirm their findings."

Bruce, let me have you answer that.

FRIEDRICH: Well, I would guarantee you that if the Dairy Council or Gil, your other guest, could come up with one study that said dairy products don't cause prostate cancer they'd have it in hand. I would encourage people to check out the dumpdairy.com Web site, click on the "Got prostate cancer?" link.

Again, "British Journal of Cancer," the World Cancer Research Fund looked at all of the studies that have been and said that in fact dairy products are a cause of prostate cancer.

The American Cancer Society, certainly not an animal rights group, says on their Web site and in their position paper on prostate cancer that dairy products appear to cause prostate cancer. The American Cancer Society also says that a third of all cancers are caused on the basis of diet, as many as smoking. And their top-two recommendations: Eat plant-based foods and cut out animal-based foods. That's the top two. So there's very clearly a link.

Gil's organization gets money from Monsanto and ADM and a variety of other groups. They're an apologist for industry, and of course, he's going to say that.

BATTISTA: I have to take a break at this particular time. I'll let Dr. Ross answer that when we come back. We also have questions from the audience. And we invite you to take part in our TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at CNN.com/Talkback. Today's question is "Was the use of Mayor Giuliani's image fair or unfair?" We'll be back in just a moment.

In 1998, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld "New York Magazine's" free speech right to use Rudy Giuliani's image in an ad suggesting the magazine was the only good thing in New York that the mayor hadn't taken for. The ad appeared on 75 buses and was taken down by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority at the mayor's request. The court ordered the MTA to allow the ad.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back. A couple of e-mails. Darryl in Oregon says: "Although their cause seems to be a valid one, PETA may also want to focus on the ethical treatment of humans." And H.L. says: "In my view, PETA just crossed the line. I hope Giuliani sues their udders off."

(APPLAUSE)

OK. Stop with the puns now. That's a bad pun. Let's go to the audience here quickly and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lorraine.

BATTISTA: Lorraine. Go ahead.

LORRAINE: According to Bruce, he's doing this to raise awareness by cancer, but they're also against using animals to help find a cure for cancer. So it seems a little hypocritical.

BATTISTA: Bruce.

FRIEDRICH: Yes. Well, it's important to realize we've been pumping billions of dollars down the sinkhole called "animal experimentation" for more than 30 years, and we're no closer to finding a cure than we were 30 years ago. The fact is animal experimentation is costing animal and human lives every single year.

As just two example, the polio vaccine was shelved for 10 years as a result of faulty animal experimentation according to Albert Sabine, the guy who invented it. Also, protease inhibitors for AIDS were shelved for six years. This is something has helped many AIDS victims live long -- much longer lives and much more substantial lives shelved for six years because of animal experimentation. The list goes on and on and on.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Bill in the audience.

BILL: Yes. It's not so much whether milk is good or bad for you, in my opinion, because we do a lot of things that are bad for us every single day. But using Mr. Giuliani's appearance, you know, without his permission I think is bad. I wouldn't want to see you guys doing the next commercial with Rock Hudson's likeness for, you know, condoms or something like that, or using it for David Letterman for meat that's bad for you or anybody else's likeness. I think Ingrid should have used her father's likeness, and if she was that concerned. But I think you used Mr. Giuliani for the celebrity, and you shouldn't use celebrity without their permission.

BATTISTA: Bruce, did you say that coming up you have other ads like this planned? Did you say something about "Got breast cancer?"

FRIEDRICH: Right, and that one is also already on the Dumpdairy.com Web site. We're going to be drawing attention to the fact that dairy products are linked to most of the big killers in this country. In the short-term, they're linked to obesity and lethargy, and long-term...

BATTISTA: Well, isn't that just fat?

FRIEDRICH: ... they're linked to heart disease, cancer and stroke.

BATTISTA: Let me get Dr. Ross back in here. Isn't that really just fat in general? I mean, you know, what is it Americans don't get about saturated fat? I mean, it's just not good for you. ROSS: My organization, the American Council on Science and Health, advocates a well-balanced diet, which is the same thing the American Cancer Society advocates. Mr. Friedrich was distorting their message somewhat, and I invite the viewers to visit our Web site at www.acsh.org to view our science-oriented public health approach.

A balanced diet is restricted in calories and will fight obesity on that basis. And that's clearly -- and scientifically, the overwhelming body of evidence supports that a well-balanced diet is the best way to fight against cancers of all forms.

Certainly to compare drinking milk to smoking cigarettes as a cause of cancer is ridiculous, and it's a terrible disservice to the American public to hear that gentleman say that.

They're pushing a vegetarian agenda, and I hope everybody's aware of that, and frankly, I respect their desire to alleviate animal suffering. But they shouldn't come under the guise of trying to care for human health. That's not true.

BATTISTA: Adam in the audience. Go ahead.

ADAM: Yes. My wife's in the audience, so she can vouch for this. I'm 70 years old. I've been drinking milk and eating ice cream just about every night, and I just had my prostate checked three days ago, and I'm in fine shape.

FRIEDRICH: Sure...

ADAM: And I can't see how the milk could be any way bad for you except if they're doing something to it in the last, say, decade.

FRIEDRICH: Well, they are doing variety of things to it in the last decade, and that's important to point out. But the reality is that milk inherently has absolutely no fiber and absolutely no complex carbohydrates, absolutely none. What it does have is a lot of animal protein that's bad for you, and a lot of saturated fat and cholesterol that's bad for you. So in the short term, again, it's linked to obesity and lethargy, and the long term, to the three biggest killers in this country: heart disease, cancer and stroke.

We have William Castelli, the leader of the foremost...

BATTISTA: Well, so are french fries.

FRIEDRICH: Well, no, absolutely...

BATTISTA: I know. I mean, so your real agenda, though, is that you just want people to not eat animals.

FRIEDRICH: Well, that's absolutely true. But a lowfat vegetarian diet is absolutely the healthiest diet. We have the foremost epidemiologist at Cornell University, T. Colen (ph) Campbell on board on this. We have William Castelli at Harvard University, director of the Framingham Heart Study, longest-running clinical study. They both say that a vegetarian diet is absolutely the healthiest.

BATTISTA: But we might add that french fries are from a plant- based food, so...

FRIEDRICH: Sure. Sure. That's the...

BATTISTA: You know.

FRIEDRICH: Sure, but the reality is that animal foods, all of them, have no complex carbohydrates and no fiber. And they

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: But they have a lot of protein.

FRIEDRICH: ... with saturated fat and cholesterol. Well, they have animal protein, which appears to be what actually causes cancer, what causes prostate cancer, again according to T. Colen Campbell at Cornell University.

BATTISTA: I don't -- Dr. Ross?

FRIEDRICH: So you've got animal suffering involved. And you've got the three biggest killers in this country.

BATTISTA: Dr. Ross, is animal protein the culprit for most cancers?

ROSS: I don't think there's any scientific support for that. We certainly haven't heard the American Cancer Society or the National Cancer Institute advise the American public to eliminate intake of animal fats or milk products. They haven't advised American men to cut down on these products, with an eye towards reducing the total of prostate cancer.

I think, basically, he's making most of that up. We also do know that genetics play a large role in the etiology and pathoetiology of prostate cancer. It definitely tends to run in families. And members of the groups with higher risk, particularly Afro-American men should have their prostates checked regularly.

BATTISTA: Let me go to Beatrice in the audience.

You are a nurse practitioner.

BEATRICE: Yes. And I'm 55, so I've been around for a long time, and involved in nutrition. And I think this is terrible that we take a component which is absolutely essential for all of us -- for children, for middle-aged people, for older people -- calcium and vitamin d and protein are absolutely essential components of the diet. That's why Americans look healthy. That's why we have strong bones. And that's why it is very important for us to educate our children to keep our population consuming calcium and protein. We need to do that. We've got the source. And that's how we have to keep ourselves healthy. We look at women today and we see the studies that have been done: the osteoporosis in women which have led to a great deal of pain and loss of height in women. We need to correct those kinds of problems.

BATTISTA: I have to take another quick break at this time and -- go ahead and applaud, you know. If you agree with her, go ahead.

Dr. Gilbert Ross, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate your help on this today.

And in a moment, we'll find out what our next guest has to say about the ethical treatment of people.

We will be back in just a second.

PETA put up a billboard in about a dozen cities earlier this month reading, "Jesus was a vegetarian." Last year, a similar billboard in Amarillo, Texas was removed after widespread complaints about the use of Jesus' image. The current billboard features a depiction of Jesus from the "South Park" cartoon program.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Couple more e-mails.

Lisa in California says: "Animals suffer enormously in agriculture. Every decision to purchase meat or milk should consider this fact."

Michelle says: "An association with Giuliani's cancer is misleading and pointless, just like PETA's campaign. I am all for animals being treated in a fair manner. But people are carnivorous creatures and they will continue to eat animals just like other animals."

Joining us now -- our discussion -- is Ian Punnett, a syndicated radio talk show host at WGST here in Atlanta. He is also a part-time student at Columbia Theological Seminary.

Ian, good to see you.

IAN PUNNETT, WGST RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: And it is great to be here on this show. And I appreciate this opportunity...

BATTISTA: You did that on purpose.

PUNNETT: I have brought -- I really wanted to get a milk shake. But I didn't have time to get one made, because I don't think this will stick on my lip enough through the course of this show.

BATTISTA: What bothers you about this campaign so much? Or what do you think is unethical about it?

PUNNETT: It is unconscionable. It's beyond unethical for them to abuse somebody who is suffering from cancer. This is somebody with a disease who the people from PETA are manipulating for the purposes of their own publicity. These are folks who I'm sure in their heart of hearts mean well. I'm sure that they think that they are doing the right thing.

But if these horrendous ideas -- the "Got Beer" campaign from last spring in which they were encouraging college students to drink more beer, which they took off with a great amount of: Well, sorry, we didn't mean to make anybody mad over at MADD. We promise we will be good for a while. They took it off this sort of great self- assurance that they would -- they would just stick with the "Dump Dairy" campaign -- and then when that didn't work, went back to just being outrageous, and saying the most hurtful cruel things that they can come up with.

If these are the ideas they use, Bobbie, what are the ideas that they talk about in their brainstorming session which they throw out?

BATTISTA: But the point is, Bruce, you are getting the attention that you want, correct? I mean, these adds are -- these are meant to be provoking ads. And you are getting the attention you want.

FRIEDRICH: Sure. Yes, three quick points. And the first is, I see Giuliani on the Sunday-morning talks shows -- and I saw his press conference. He's now promoting dairy products which are absolutely linked to prostate cancer and a variety of other cancers. And people can do their own research on that.

PUNNETT: You provoked him into it. You provoked into that.

FRIEDRICH: The second thing is -- no -- the second thing is -- look, the dairy industry is a multibillion-dollar industry. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars so that the previous woman will tell you that dairy products are good for you. The reality is that all of the epidemiological evidence is in. Dairy product appear to cause osteoporosis.

At Harvard University

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: You've already heard a scientist already tell you that that's marginal at best.

FRIEDRICH: Ian, I'm listening to you. I listened to you. Listen to me, Ian.

PUNNETT: I've been watching you for 20 minutes run roughshod over this guy with your specious statistics that you throw out as though it makes sense to everybody. And even the American Cancer Society disagrees with you. The American Cancer Society wishes you would stop.

FRIEDRICH: No. No. It's the American Cancer Society. It's the World Cancer Research Fund. It's Harvard University. It's Cornell University. BATTISTA: You know, Bruce...

FRIEDRICH: Harvard University followed 70,000 nurses for 12 years...

BATTISTA: Let me just say that...

FRIEDRICH: ... and they said dairy products appear to cause osteoporosis.

BATTISTA: In the e-mails and the comments that we're getting in the chat room I have to say that it seems even most people who are sympathetic to PETA do not really believe that, you know, you care that much about the connections between health and dairy products, that, you know, your agenda goes farther to that. So they're wondering if you're being a bit disingenuous.

PUNNETT: I'll give you an example of...

FRIEDRICH: Ian, let me answer the question, please.

PUNNETT: All right. Go ahead.

Well, I can give you an another example of their genuineness...

(CROSSTALK)

FRIEDRICH: OK. Before I -- before I came to PETA, I spent more than six years working in a homeless shelter and the largest soup kitchen in Washington, D.C. Ingrid Newkirk, the president of PETA, conceived of this campaign because she has legitimate concerns about the prostate cancer that killed her father earlier this year. We've got all of the information on our Dumpdairy.com Web site that in fact dairy products are linked to osteoporosis, are linked to heart disease...

PUNNETT: You keep...

(CROSSTALK)

FRIEDRICH: They're linked to a variety of cancer, including prostate cancer. It's very important...

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: It takes nothing away from the fact you did not have Rudy Giuliani's permission. You're abusing somebody that has cancer. If you want to put somebody's picture on the billboard...

FRIEDRICH: That's just not the case, Ian.

PUNNETT: ... put Ingrid's father up there. You know why she wouldn't want her father mocked.

(APPLAUSE)

Why would you mock anybody else?

Anybody who's had cancer in the family, why would they want their family members mocked by PETA? What did he do to deserve this? He got cancer.

FRIEDRICH: Ian, there's no mockery about it.

PUNNETT: He got cancer. That's all he got.

FRIEDRICH: There's no mockery about it, Ian.

PUNNETT: Well, he feels mocked.

FRIEDRICH: Ian, 180,000 people...

PUNNETT: I think the audience feels like you're mocking him. The audience feels like you're mocking him. And Bruce, let's face it: You wouldn't have put him up there if he wouldn't have gotten you this kind of publicity.

Who are you going to put up for breast cancer? Are you going to mock Betty Ford? Who else -- are you going to pull somebody out of their death bed in Hollywood and you're going to pretend that they care about your cause?

FRIEDRICH: Ian, this is a very serious disease...

PUNNETT: Yes.

FRIEDRICH: ... 180,000 men are going to come down with prostate cancer this year, more than 30,000 of them are going to die of it.

PUNNETT: Then use their permission.

FRIEDRICH: The Harvard study -- let me finish, Ian.

PUNNETT: Then get their permission!

FRIEDRICH: Let me finish.

PUNNETT: No, it's unethical. You keep talking about it like it's milk versus cancer. It is milk versus the abuse of people with cancer, plain and simple. It is the question for the show. It is the question you cannot answer. It is the question that everybody already knows the answer to.

You don't care about Giuliani...

(CROSSTALK)

So, that's why you're going to mock him for being ill!

FRIEDRICH: Ian, I'm sure that if you had prostate cancer you would want (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to do everything in your power to let people know what the causes are. And one of the causes...

PUNNETT: You don't care about that! You don't care about that!

FRIEDRICH: ... according to all of the evidence...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: I think we're well-aware -- I think we're well-aware -- where -- I think we are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- well-aware of the -- whether or not there is a cause and effect between dairy products and prostate cancer. That is up to people to decide. But let's get back to talking about the tactics of this particular ad, and we'll do that right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me go to the audience here quickly. Audry (ph), you're a nurse, right? OK.

AUDRY: Yes. I'm a nurse upstate New York, and I've been a urology nurse for 4 1/2 years. When patients went home, they were told to eat a regular diet, to just live their normal life, have early detection, you know, and we need the amino acids in protein for the healing process.

BATTISTA: It's your thought early detection is...

AUDRY: And early detection is the way -- yes, absolutely. Early detection for all cancers.

PUNNETT: And you're never going to hear this in any of the PETA ads because they don't care. They absolutely don't care about this.

FRIEDRICH: No...

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: This is their floating ethics. Their floating ethics are they will complain about the waste that comes from these industrial farms and they'll talk about that being bad for the environment, and then they'll come to Atlanta and dump 2,000 pounds of chicken waste in the streets of Atlanta and call it harmless street theater. It goes -- it runs into our gutters.

(CROSSTALK)

It runs -- it could have -- this is a city where children died of E. coli just a few years ago, and he's dumping this bacteria-laden chicken waste in the middle of the street because now that gets him attention.

And like, children who just act out for whatever they can get for it, the people from PETA don't really care about the ethical treatment of animals as long as those animals are human.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: I remember -- I remember when that happened, Bruce. I remember when that happened, Bruce. It was right outside CNN Center, as a matter of fact. What were you thinking with that one?

FRIEDRICH: Basically, we're trying to draw awareness to the fact that animals are suffering miserably on factory farms and slaughterhouses.

BATTISTA: Well, all you did...

FRIEDRICH: The way they're treating...

BATTISTA: But you all did is draw awareness...

FRIEDRICH: ... is so abusive...

BATTISTA: ... to the fact that people might get sick from all that...

PUNNETT: Yes. You did what you accused others of doing.

(CROSSTALK)

FRIEDRICH: The way these animals are treated is so abusive that if it were done to dogs and cats it would be illegal.

BATTISTA: But nobody thought about that.

FRIEDRICH: These farmers, these truck drivers, these slaughterhouse operators, they could be locked in prison for cruelty to animals.

People are making a choice when they sit down to eat. And it's a choice: Do I want to support...

PUNNETT: Right.

FRIEDRICH: ... violence and bloodshed and misery for animals, animal abuse, or don't I? And if you don't want to support animal abuse, you should stop consuming dairy products and you should stop eating meat. And that's our...

PUNNETT: But here's the point. After people have made the choice, you don't leave them alone. That's when you go into your intimidation tactics. And you know it.

FRIEDRICH: No. No, Ian...

PUNNETT: You can laugh that smarmy laugh all you want, Bruce, but we know it.

FRIEDRICH: Ian, you're not being fair. You're not being fair.

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: Bruce, I've watched you guys. I've talked to you. You've been on my radio show.

FRIEDRICH: We're an organization... (CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: Bruce, you'll do anything for headlines. you'll do anything for headlines.

FRIEDRICH: No, not at all.

PUNNETT: Then why didn't you use somebody other than Giuliani? Why don't you reach out to a celebrity that said, yes, I want you -- like Yul Brynner did the with the Cancer Society. Why didn't you reach out to somebody who has prostate cancer?

FRIEDRICH: You're not really interested in getting the answers, are you, Ian? You're mostly just interested in yelling?

PUNNETT: Yes. Well, go ahead. No, go ahead. Tell me why.

FRIEDRICH: No, Giuliani, as you know, Ian...

PUNNETT: Why didn't you use...

FRIEDRICH: ... Giuliani is a public figure who has taken every available opportunity to talk about his prostate cancer. He has been on...

PUNNETT: That's just not true.

FRIEDRICH: ... the Sunday morning talk shows. He's been...

PUNNETT: That is just not true. He's taken every opportunity to avoid talking about his prostate cancer. His campaign is doing everything they can to avoid talking about it.

FRIEDRICH: People need realize -- people need to realize...

PUNNETT: He is not a poster child for prostate cancer!

FRIEDRICH: ... that if they're eating dairy products, they're doing their health a disservice and they're promoting cruelty to animals. The cows...

PUNNETT: OK. But don't make him out to be like somebody who can't -- who can't wait to go on "Oprah" to talk about his prostate. That's not Giuliani, and you guys are pimping him for your own purposes. And you know it, or you wouldn't have done it.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a break. And Ian -- Ian, Marjorie, your wife, called. Calm down. We'll be back in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Welcome back.

Bruce, I am trying very hard to find folks who are in sympathy with PETA. I have one here from Cyri (ph), who e-mails us saying: "Why are people only interested in their own well-being? Take a tour through one of our country's slaughterhouses or huge factory farms and see what kind of appetite you have for meat and dairy products after that."

Let me go to Jeanette (ph) in the audience. You are a vegetarian, Jeanette, but you don't really necessarily agree with what PETA is doing here.

JEANETTE: I don't like the approach they're taking. I feel like if you want to make people aware of the effects of milk, why aren't you putting the statistics on the billboard instead of Giuliani's likeness?

FRIEDRICH: Well, we do live in a tabloid society and, unfortunately, these are the sorts of things that are required in order to generate a public discussion and a public debate.

PUNNETT: Oh, please.

FRIEDRICH: People really need to understand. Ian, people need to understand. Cows give milk for the same reason human beings give milk, they give milk for their babies, we take their babies away. Every single one of the million veal calves who's going to be...

PUNNETT: Right, right, right, right...

FRIEDRICH: ... confined in a tiny little crate in their own feces and urine for their entire life, every single one of those animals...

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: It's all our fault that you used Giuliani. Now it's society's fault that you used Giuliani.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: Hold on, let me ask Bruce, how far is PETA willing to go to make your point? I mean, is there anything that is off limits?

FRIEDRICH: Well, absolutely. And I would just encourage people to put themselves in Giuliani's place.

BATTISTA: Wait, wait, tell me what is off limits.

FRIEDRICH: I personally, if I had prostate cancer would want to do whatever in my power to let people know what the causal factors are.

PUNNETT: Then that would be your choice.

BATTISTA: But that's your choice.

FRIEDRICH: Diary products absolutely are a causal factor.

BATTISTA: But you didn't ask him that.

FRIEDRICH: Sure.

PUNNETT: You didn't -- and you know, and you don't want to go find a celebrity that will back you up, because then you won't get the press.

I mean, let's face it...

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: I mean, Yul Brynner did it because out of his goodness of his heart he realized that he was wrong.

FRIEDRICH: Right.

PUNNETT: If you went to Giuliani and you said to him, you know, we really need you to reach out to the other people who don't have it yet, or might be having it, and we think any small, little incremental help in that direction would be big, could you please help us? And he says, yes, then you win.

FRIEDRICH: Right.

PUNNETT: But you don't want to take that chance. You don't want that. What you want is the headlines, what you want is to dump, spray paint...

FRIEDRICH: No, we did actually go to Giuliani and we would like to sit down with Giuliani, and I've made that clear.

PUNNETT: You did that after the fact.

FRIEDRICH: No, we actually sent him the ad on the billboard in advance of the fact...

PUNNETT: What, on the day that it appeared on the billboard outside?

FRIEDRICH: .... and we would very much like to sit down and talk with him about that.

PUNNETT: And if he had said, no, what would you have done, not run it?

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: If he had said no, would you have not run it?

FRIEDRICH: I don't know. He didn't get back to us.

PUNNETT: There you go. You don't know.

FRIEDRICH: We really wanted to sit down and have a conversation with him about it.

PUNNETT: So if he did...

(CROSSTALK)

FRIEDRICH: Ian, you are not being fair. You are not letting me talk, you are just yelling at me.

PUNNETT: Because you don't answer the questions, Bruce. You don't answer -- you never do it.

FRIEDRICH: It's important for people to realize that if they're drinking milk they're promoting cruelty to animals and they're doing their own health a disservice, and that's crucial.

PUNNETT: You just keep repeating the same information over and over again. That's why.

FRIEDRICH: Well, mostly you are yelling at me through all of it, Ian.

PUNNETT: Well, you know, Bruce, what I'm trying -- there is like two people in the world that make me nut up like this, one is the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and the other is you, and for the same reason.

FRIEDRICH: Well, that's a pretty unfair comparison, don't you think?

PUNNETT: No, it's not, because the Ku Klux Klan...

FRIEDRICH: We're simply encouraging people...

PUNNETT: ... distorts the image.

FRIEDRICH: ... to adopt compassion rather than cruelty and mercy rather than misery...

PUNNETT: Bruce, well, I'm going to tell you -- I'll wait until you are done.

FRIEDRICH: ... and that's the decision all of us make when we sit down at the dinner table.

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: Great. But you don't care about people's decisions.

BATTISTA: I have to -- yo.

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: Like the Klan, you just want to intimidate people into believing your way, and that is all that you care about.

BATTISTA: I have to break, we'll be back in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let's take a quick look at our TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote. The question today was: The -- was the use of Rudy Giuliani's image for the PETA ad, was it fair or unfair? Twenty one percent say fair, 79 percent say unfair.

Let me go to Bill in the audience.

BILL: Yes. I -- as I said before, I am constantly berated with negative advertising on television, and PETA has been doing that over the years. Why constantly? I don't need to know who has Parkinson's Disease, I don't need to know who has hemorrhoids, or passes kidney stones. But why does PETA always using negative advertising? Why don't they use Bugs Bunny with "got carrots", or Popeye with "got spinach"? Why always the negative advertising campaign? You want to use celebrities, use a celebrity that backs you. But why always do you stick to stuff like that?

FRIEDRICH: Well, that's a very good question and I am glad you brought it up. The reality is that this is a multibillion dollar industry, the dairy industry, and it fights and propagandizes like a multibillion dollar industry, spending hundreds of millions of dollars a year to push a product on people that is horrible for them, that is environmentally catastrophic, and that supports cruelty to animals. If these cows were treated so -- if dogs and cats were treated like these cows are treated, or like their veal calf babies are treated, these farmers and these truck drivers and these slaughterhouse operators could be thrown in prison for cruelty to animals. Paul McCartney says if slaughterhouses had glass walls, everybody would be a vegetarian. It's important to realize these veal calves at six months, they are in slaughterhouses. These dairy cows have about four years on average, a fraction of their natural lifespan...

PUNNETT: Right.

BATTISTA: Let me go to...

FRIEDRICH: ... they're hanging upside down and their throats are slit oftentimes while they are still conscious.

BATTISTA: The last 15 seconds, Ian.

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: Bruce, I get my final thought.

FRIEDRICH: Certainly.

PUNNETT: Regardless of how you feel about the milk industry, regardless of how you feel about Mayor Giuliani, it is never right, or good, or true, or ethical to make fun of people with a disease just for your own cause.

(CROSSTALK)

PUNNETT: And anybody who is in PETA should resign out of protest. There are many other good organizations other than PETA.

(APPLAUSE) BATTISTA: That will have to be the last word. Bruce Friedrich and Ian Punnett, thank you both very much for joining us today. It was lively, that's for sure. We will see you again tomorrow at 3:00 for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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