Evans, Novak, Hunt & Shields

Sen. Don Nickles Discusses the Transition to the Bush Presidency

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MARK SHIELDS, CO-HOST: I'm Mark Shields. Robert Novak and I will question the number two Republican in the U.S. Senate.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: He is Senator Don Nickles of Oklahoma, the assistant majority leader.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Elected president by the smallest of margins, George W. Bush faces a Senate divided 50-50 between Republicans and Democrats. This week, the president-elect reached out to the Senate Democratic leader with a phone call.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: He expressed his desire to work with us closely, and to try to find ways with which to work together. He recognized the difficulty with which he's taken on this position.

NOVAK: But President-elect Bush faced difficulties from prominent Republicans, with the speaker of the House postponing action on an across-the-board tax cut.

REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), HOUSE SPEAKER: Some of the things we've passed already would be nice just to start with.

NOVAK: And Senator John McCain pressed for early action on campaign finance reform.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think we could take it up immediately, before the Bush legislative agenda is prepared, and we could dispense with it in two or three weeks.

NOVAK: After two years in the Oklahoma legislature, Don Nickles was elected to the U.S. Senate in 1980 at age 31, becoming the youngest Republican senator ever. In 1988, he was elected to the Senate GOP leadership, and in 1996 became assistant majority leader.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOVAK: Senator Nickles, for the last six years, you in the Republican leadership have had pretty much your own way. With a Democratic president, you set your own agenda. Now, are you willing to say that this is no mere collaboration with a Republican president, but the principal role in setting the agenda should be with the president of the United States?

SEN. DON NICKLES (R), OKLAHOMA: Well, we'll certainly work with President-elect George Bush and Vice President-elect Dick Cheney. They're both good friends; they're both real capable leaders. They want to work with members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans.

I think George Bush was very, very sincere when he said, hey, he wanted to lessen the partisan bickering, and see if we can't get some things done. He's been reaching out to members to do that, and I look forward to working with him.

NOVAK: I think you didn't say he has the principal role, though...

NICKLES: Well, I think he does; he's going to set the agenda. I know I heard John McCain say he wanted to set the agenda, but I think President Bush is going to set the agenda. We'll be working with him; he's already said he wanted to do some things in education reform, tax reform, health care, and we'll work with him to do those.

NOVAK: Well, the president-elect campaigned all over America, including the debates with Al Gore, with his big across-the-board tax cut. He's elected, and two days after the election, the speaker of the House says we're putting that aside. Isn't that kind of doing a job on the American people.

NICKLES: No, I don't think so, and Speaker Hastert, in my opinion, didn't really mean that he was putting it aside. He said, strategically, it might be easier to get done, to do it in two or three different bites (ph).

NOVAK: Do you agree with that?

NICKLES: I don't know; I haven't decided. I'll work with the president-elect, and work with the speaker; we have a great working relationship with the speaker and Senator Lott and the president-elect and with their Democrat colleagues. And we'll strategize: Hey, do we want to do this in one great big package -- we've done it that way before -- or do we want to do it piecemeal?

With President Clinton, it was better to do it piecemeal. He signed one or two of them, and he vetoed two or three of our tax cuts, so with President Clinton, the piecemeal strategy was better; although at one time, in '97, he signed a big package, in '95, he vetoed a big package.

So with President Clinton, one strategy was better. We'll have to work with all members of Congress, Democrats and Republicans, to figure out if it's better to have one big package -- what we call in Congress a reconciliation package -- or to do it individually.

SHIELDS: Senator Nickles, on Friday, the Reverend Jerry Falwell told Robin Toner (ph) of "The New York Times," quote, "I would hope Mr. Bush would begin selecting strong advocates of his policies on cutting taxes, rebuilding the family, rebuilding the military, all the things that the people who put him in office support him for," end quote.

General Colin Powell to be secretary of state: pro-choice, pro- gun control, pro-affirmative action. Does Jerry Falwell got a right to be a little upset and angry?

NICKLES: No, I don't think so. I think Jerry Falwell is a great individual, and I also think Colin Powell is a great individual. And I think Colin Powell -- I believe the decision's going to be made pretty quick, or announced today, that he's going to be secretary of state. He's well-respected. He campaigned with Governor Bush extensively. He's going to be well-received, I think, both throughout our country, and frankly, internationally as well. He'll be an outstanding secretary of state.

SHIELDS: His positions, then, on abortion and affirmative action, gun control, don't bother you?

NICKLES: I may or may not -- I don't really agree with Colin Powell on those particular issues, but I don't really think the secretary of state sets the agenda on those issues.

SHIELDS: OK. On Friday, Senator John Breaux of Louisiana had a meeting with President-elect Bush, and there was talk of a Cabinet position, which Senator Breaux said he wasn't interested in. Realistically, with the Senate divided 50-50, we're not going to see any Democratic senator give up his or her seat, as long as there's a Republican governor waiting to replace him with a Republican in the Senate, are we?

NICKLES: Well, who knows? I don't know. I have great respect for John Breaux, and he's a key player in the Senate; he has been for many years. I enjoy working with him on the Finance Committee. He's going to be very instrumental in helping us put together a tax package, helping us put together Social Security reforms, Medicare reforms; he did a lot of work with Bill Frist in a bipartisan effort with Social Security and Medicare that, frankly, the president dismissed. Last Congress: Hopefully we can get some things done.

NICKLES: And I think he'll be an instrumental player. And I would more than guess that he'll continue being in the Senate.

NOVAK: Senator Nickles, the Secretary of State does not set the agenda on abortion and other issues, but the secretary of HHS and the attorney general, to some extent, do, and there has been speculation from the Bush camp of naming a pro-choice person to either or both of those positions.

Now, again, Governor Bush campaigned all over America as pro- life, particularly in the primaries when he got the nomination. Wouldn't that be a betrayal of the Republican base if he were to name a pro-choice person to one of those jobs?

NICKLES: Well, let's see who he nominates before we start criticizing. I know of several of the candidates that have their names -- their names have been surfaced that I would think would be outstanding, whether you're talking about Labor, HHS -- Labor, Health and Human and Services -- whether you're talking about attorney general, those are key positions. They control enormous responsibilities. They have enormous responsibility, both financial and in government, and they are important. And most of the names I've heard, I think, are outstanding candidates.

NOVAK: Well, for example, to give you a name, Governor Whitman of New Jersey, who is very, very pro-choice: Wouldn't that be a betrayal if she were named as secretary of HHS?

NICKLES: Well, let's see what happens. I happen to like Christie Whitman. I don't agree with her on all the issues, but my guess is if she finds a position in the administration, she will work with the president to enforce his policies and positions on the issues.

SHIELDS: Senator Nickles, you and some many of the others have spoken about "lowering the thermostat," of "damping the fires of partisanship."

And yet your majority leader, Trent Lott, had this to say, quote, "I'll tell you one thing. When this Hillary gets to the Senate, if she does -- maybe lightning will strike and she won't -- she'll be one of 100, and we won't let her forget it," end quote.

Now what did "this Trent" mean when he said this about "this Hillary"?

NICKLES: Well, I don't have a clue. I hadn't heard that until I was on a talk show and somebody said, "What do you think of this?" And I said, "I'm not going to touch that." But I think...

SHIELDS: Are you about ready to touch it now?

NICKLES: No, I don't think so. I don't know if he was misquoted or what, but...

SHIELDS: Nobody's said that he was misquoted.

NICKLES: Well, I don't know. But I think Hillary Clinton will come to the Senate, certainly initially, with a great deal of fanfare and a lot of attention, a lot of media attention.

But my guess is she'll settle into the role of being U.S. senator from New York. She will take on her responsibilities. And I think she'll probably enjoy the role of U.S. senator and not -- I think the attention will wane to some extent after a period of time, which she will probably be pleased with, and she'll dig right in in the various committees and floor activities, and I think she'll be a very active U.S. Senator.

SHIELDS: Well, Saturday's papers, speaking about media attention, reported that Mrs. Clinton had signed, or was about to sign, an $8 million advance from Simon and Schuster for her memoirs as first lady.

Just a few years ago when Speaker Newt Gingrich got $4.5 million, there was a brouhaha to the point where he had to give back the entire advance.

Yet the only Senator I've even heard mention this, that it might be inappropriate, various questions about this huge advance is Senator John McCain of Arizona. I mean, shouldn't there be some sort of questioning and scrutiny of whether a U.S. Senator is getting this type of advance for a book?

NICKLES: Well, I think the environment in the House, for whatever reason, the Democrats were really vicious against Newt Gingrich; I think unfairly so.

We want to treat Senator Clinton with great respect, and as long as she abides by the rules of the Senate, I don't think she'll have any problem.

SHIELDS: Are the rules of the Senate...

NICKLES: I don't know. I haven't written any books. I've been in the Senate 20 years, and I haven't gotten an $8 million advance for writing a book. If I could, I would.

SHIELDS: Have you gotten any million dollar offers?

NICKLES: No, I'm waiting. I'm waiting. I'm willing to put one together other -- no, I'm kidding. I really don't even know what the rules are when it comes to advances. And people have rights to sell books. Pat Moynihan's written several books.

I don't know what he's done as far royalties and advances. No one, of course, in the Senate's received anything like an advance of $8 million, so it is different. We do have restrictions on outside earned income. And I don't know that those rules were even contemplated with anything of this magnitude.

SHIELDS: OK, Robert Novak and I will be back with Don Nickles to ask him about the McCain-Feingold bill and whether it will become law.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Senator John Nickles, your colleague, Senator John McCain said this week, and he's been saying for some time, that he is going to bring the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform to the Senate floor this -- as the first order of business in the new session.

Number one, as part of the leadership, will go along with that? And number two, since you're only 50-50, you can't really stop it this time, can you?

NICKLES: Well, I hope to be able to sway my good friend and colleague, Senator McCain, that this is not the right time to do it. I don't think it's the right start that President Bush would like to have. I think he -- President Bush was elected.

He should have a great deal of say so in what should be the initial agenda. He should have a "honeymoon period." I can't think of a better way to destroy a honeymoon than to through out something as partisan and divisive as campaign finance.

But knowing that we're 50-50, knowing that individual senators have a great deal of latitude in offering amendments and so on, I mentioned to Senator McCain, my hope that we would come to a jointly agreed upon time, some months, past, maybe after the Fourth of the July, maybe in June, maybe in May, but sometime where the leader, this is really Trent Lott's call. He's the majority leader.

The majority leader in the Senate sets the agenda. He needs to work with Senator McCain and with our colleague. One, this idea of "power sharing" is really -- we need to be working with Democrats and Republicans, Senator Daschle and Senator Reid, Senator McCain, myself and others, and say, all right, "When are we going to do this?" Both caucuses are going to be meeting probably in early January. We'll be sworn in on January 3rd. We'll have meetings. What are our top priorities? We should be listening to the Democrats. What's on their agenda? Campaign finance is a big item with the Democrat agenda and John McCain. And we need to schedule it. And we need to be up front and say, "We'll take up this up at a given time." But I think it would be a terrible start. I don't think we should do that in the early session.

SHIELDS: And what is his reaction to your position?

NICKLES: Well, he hasn't quite agreed with it just yet.

SHIELDS: I (inaudible).

NICKLES: And, again, I have great respect for him. You're talking about books. I read his book, "Faith of Our Fathers." It is a great book. It is one that makes you feel good.

So, I love John McCain. I just disagree with him. I'm going to hopefully convince him that at a mutually agreed upon time, we'll bring up campaign finance.

Maybe we've learned something from this last election that some other things need to be changed. So, we'll consider it. And I hope it will be in May or June, or July.

SHIELDS: On the subject of campaign finance, you suffered real losses, though, in the sense of Connie Mack leaving the Senate, Paul Coverdell's death, the retirement of Connie Mack, the defeat of Spence Abraham, the defeat of Slate Gorton, the defeat of John Ashcroft. So, McCain's position and Feingold's position is somewhat strengthened in the Senate right now.

NICKLES: Well, that may be. And my guess is that we'll have the votes to pass campaign reform. I don't think it will be McCain- Feingold. Senator Hagel has a bill, co-sponsered, I believe by John Breaux and some other Democrats.

It's bipartisian. To me that's a very attractive bill. There's other elements now. There's things that we learned in this last campaign that maybe we need to change. If you have a very wealthy candidate that's going to spend umpteen millions of dollars, maybe an opponent shouldn't be -- have his contributors limited to $1,000.

So, we could make some adjustments. And my guess is there probably is, what I would say, a "majority middle" with over 60 votes. It's probably not McCain-Feingold. It's probably not Mitch McConnell's bill, but maybe it's something in between that we can get passed.

But it's going to take a little bit of time to put that together. And it's going to be a test. It's going to be a test of leadership in the Senate and can we work together to get something done.

I think President Bush would veto McCain-Feingold. So, do we want to get something done and signed into law? That was the initial question. I don't it would be Senator McCain's bill, but maybe we can work up something not too far afield that we'll have significant reforms and something both parties can feel like are fair and substantial.

SHIELDS: On the subject of power share in the Senate, I mean there's 50 Democrats, 50 Republicans. The disparity's has always been in staff and resources that the majority has had when the Democrats are in control, when the Republicans are in control.

Doesn't justice and equity demand that with a 50-50 line-up in the Senate that each party has an equal number of staff people and resources?

NICKLES: Well, I don't think quite that much. There's always been a big disparity, even if you had 51-49.

SHIELDS: Uh-hum.

NICLEKS: One side would get 2 to 1 on staff. And I think that's probably too broad. I think we probably ought to close that somewhat. But I wouldn't think 50-50. One side has to "drive the car."

And you can't really have two people tugging on it at the same time. But those are things that we're going to be discussing. Those are things that primarily will be worked out with leadership, between Democrats and Republicans.

And I think we'll have more equitable staff ratios, I think more equitable ratios in committees. But, I happen to be one that believes in -- wait a minute, whoever has a majority and the race was actually 51 to 50, and according to the Constitution, we need -- I think one side has to control. And I would say the same thing, Mark, if I was in -- on the other side. I think one person has to be committee chairman. This idea of having dual chairmen and all committees exactly equal, I'm afraid would be a recipe for paralysis.

SHIELDS: But Senator, during the period between January 3rd and January 20th, those 17 days that the 51-50 will be in the Democrats favor...

NICKLES: That's exactly right.

NOVAK: ... while Al Gore is vice president and before Dick Cheney takes over. And so you will be assistant minority leader...

NICKLES: That's right.

NOVAK: ... and Tom Daschle will be majority leader.

Does that mean that Democratic chairmen will preside over the confirmation hearings of the Bush Cabinet, which will take place at that time.

NICKLES: Quite possibly. You know, a lot of times, for the most part we don't get anything done between January 3rd and the inaugural. And I doubt that we'll get a lot done this time, but you are correct, they will be in the majority for that 17 days.

NOVAK: You'll have to do confirmations in that period.

NICKLES: And I hope we begin the confirmations and work in a bipartisan way on the confirmations. It's going to be a real test for Democrats and Republicans. Can we lead? Can we work together? And I think the 17 days, my guess, when the Democrats are in control, they'll work with us. And we're going to work with them when we're in control for the balance of the year.

SHIELDS: We have to take a break now, but Robert Novak and I will be back to ask Don Nickles "The Big Question."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHIELDS: Now the "Big Question" for Don Nickles.

Bill Clinton: Highest recorded favorable job rating of any president in history in his eighth year, higher than Ronald Reagan's, Dwight Eisenhower, anybody else. Seventy-two percent to 18 percent in the "Wall Street Journal" poll this week on favorable handling of the economy, 66-29 on favorable job rating.

Now taking off your partisan hat for a second, after eight years of Bill Clinton's stewardship, what do you most admire about his presidency? What achievements?

NICKLES: Well, he's a very likable individual. I mean...

SHIELDS: But that was even before his presidency and probably after.

NICKLES: That's the case. And he is a likable guy. I mean, when you talk to him he is a very charming, charismatic leader. And I'll give him a lot of points. He's landed on his feet many, many times where other politicians would have been out the door.

NOVAK: Senator, we've got less than a minute. This week, Vice President-elect Dick Cheney came up to the Hill and talked to five moderate Republican senators from the Northeast. And Senator Snowe, Olympia Snowe of Maine, said that there was a mandate from the middle 9in this campaign. Do you agree with that, and do you think Dick Cheney and George W. Bush will take that advice? NICKLES: I think they will build coalitions, and Democrats and Republicans -- mainstream-type coalition that will get a lot of things done. And I think the accomplishments will be pleasing to the moderate Republicans as well as the conservative Republicans.

And incidentally, he met with five moderate Republicans. He also met with 45 conservative Republicans. And Dick Cheney's liked by all.

NOVAK: Mandate from the middle, yes or no? What do you think?

NICKLES: I think he will have a mandate and has a mandate, frankly, to help get a lot of things done that will help improve people's lives in education, taxes and health care. We want to get it done this Congress.

NOVAK: Senator Don Nickles, thank you very much.

Mark Shields and I will be back with a comment after these messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHIELDS: Bob, after listening to Don Nickles, I am more convinced that the first showdown of the new Congress is going to be when Senator John McCain and Russ Feingold stand by their guns and bring up campaign finance reform. McCain has said there will be blood on the Senate floor if necessary, and believe me, I think there will be.

NOVAK: It was interesting that Senator McCain said this is simply going to be vetoed by President-elect Bush. Now the interesting thing is these people, the Republican leaders, have been running their own show for six years with Bill Clinton in the White House. They're going to have to adjust to a Republican president in the White House. He said that he would have, that Bush would have, the lead in fixing the agenda, but he said it grudgingly.

SHIELDS: I'll also say this, quite frankly, that I don't believe that George W. Bush would veto campaign finance as his first official act.

But let me just add, Don Nickles was pretty explicit. He doesn't want to share the quality of staff and resources with the Democrats, even though its 50-50 in the Senate.

NOVAK: Nevertheless, Mark, Senator Nickles is a pretty shrewd politician, and the mood now is very different than it was after the 1994 election, when they had the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) wants moderation. He wants everybody to get together. We'll see how it works.

I'm Robert Novak.

SHIELDS: I'm Mark Shields.

NOVAK: Coming up in one half hour on "RELIABLE SOURCES," a wrap up of the Bush-Gore contest and how it plays in the media. And at 7 p.m., Senator-elect George Allen joins "THE CAPITAL GANG" for a look back at the campaign and what's ahead for President- elect Bush and Vice President Al Gore.

SHIELDS: Thank you for joining us.

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