The Point With Greta Van Susteren

The Manhunt for Two Texas Fugitives

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN. Tracking the Texas escapees, but still one step behind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, we're not absolutely certain what they may be traveling in or where they are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight's POINT: the manhunt, the search for the remaining fugitives, and wife and mother of a dead policeman lash out at the system.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAYNE HAWKINS, SLAIN OFFICER'S WIFE: Once they finish pointing fingers to each other, then they can all take accountability and we can begin to work together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Also, why this player will be the center of attention long after the Super Bowl's over.

THE POINT. Now from Washington, Greta Van Susteren.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Somewhere, maybe in Colorado, two alleged killers, armed and dangerous, are on the loose. Nervous authorities are checking lonely motel rooms, poring over stolen car reports, hoping for a phone call, a tip, some kind of break to end a month-long ordeal.

Tonight's "Flashpoint": the manhunt for two Texas fugitives.

The men are Patrick Murphy, a convicted rapist, and Donald Newbury, a convicted robber. They've been on the run since breaking out of a Texas prison December 13th. In all, seven inmates got away.

Christmas Eve, the gang allegedly killed Irving, Texas policeman Aubrey Hawkins, shooting him 11 times and running over him as they drove away. Then, they disappeared.

Apparently, since the first of the year, they've all been staying at an RV campground in Colorado. That ended yesterday, when authorities captured four of the escapees. Authorities say a fifth killed himself.

But Murphy and Newbery weren't there. Today, about 20 miles down the road, they found the van the two had been driving. It was empty. They had left a bottle of hair dye.

Joining me from Colorado Springs with the latest on the search is Mike McPhee, who's covering the story for "The Denver Post."

Mike, what do we know about the contents inside that van, and do they in any way give any indications as to where these two men might be headed?

MIKE MCPHEE, "DENVER POST": No, the contents didn't give us any clues. What I was told, there were some duffel bags, which didn't contain too much. There was a box of men's hair dye, and the keys were left in the ignition.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mike, you know, there's been so much discussion about this particular van. They left the keys in it, as you noted.

Were any cars stolen or reported stolen near to that van to suggest how they were getting away from that location?

MCPHEE: I checked with the Colorado Springs police department. In the past 24 hours, six cars have been stolen. None were stolen -- were stolen from this area, but I don't think that that's significant.

No one knows fore sure. It's speculation. But to me, it's interesting that the van was found north of the highway from Woodland Park. I have a belief that they probably picked up a car somewhere in town, headed north, dumped the van in a dark parking lot. It was pretty -- fairly well-obscured behind the back of a restaurant. They probably loaded what they had and got back on the highway.

I believe they went to Denver, because it's a lot easier to hide in a large city.

VAN SUSTEREN: And have there been any reports of record of any carjacking or any violence by these two?

MCPHEE: No, nothing at all.

VAN SUSTEREN: Are there any -- are tips poring in?

MCPHEE: The police say they have hundreds of phone calls coming in from all over the state and some from other states.

VAN SUSTEREN: What about this hair dye? What is the significance of that? I mean, I asked you about it and I heard it all over the news. Is there some -- something special about the hair dye?

MCPHEE: Well, they're all dark-haired Hispanic-types. We know Rivas has dyed his hair blond. He's in the Teller County jail right now. Another one -- I forget which one -- has orange hair. So they're -- they've been trying to change their appearances. They've grown beards. Some of them have grown their hair out as much as you can in a month.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is it suspected that anyone is helping them, or are these two on their own?

MCPHEE: We have no idea, at least not what I've been able to find out. I can't believe that they just found Woodland Park on their own. I interviewed a number of residents up there who have come -- who have moved there, and every single one told me that they came there because of a friend or an uncle or some person that introduced them to Woodland Park. So I believe there has to be link, but what that link is we don't know.

VAN SUSTEREN: It looks like we've lost the signal to Mike McPhee of "The Denver Post." We're going to take a short break. Actually, no, we'll -- our guests in Dallas are with us. No, once again, we have Mike McPhee back. We'll get it straight in a second.

Mike, you're back with us, so let me...

MCPHEE: Glad to be here again.

VAN SUSTEREN: Let me ask you this. At first, I heard that they made their way to the Woodland Park area in the first of the year, and of course, they weren't picked up until yesterday, the four of them. Did anybody notice anything suspicious about them? How were they able to hide out there for so long?

MCPHEE: They just laid low. They were pretty smart about it.

I found person that the person who died, Harper, was a Bible student. He read the Bible frequently and spent a lot of time with the manager of the RV lot where they were staying. We found numerous sightings of them around town. There was a bar they used to go in occasionally. They would buy breakfast down at the Hungry Bear down the road. But they basically stayed to themselves, and from reports of neighbors, they worked on their vehicles quite a bit.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, my thanks to "Denver Post" reporter Mike McPhee and also for enduring out technical problems.

Colorado Springs is about 800 miles away from the Texas prison the men broke out of last month. How could they have gone so far, stayed free so long, and escaped in the first place? And even more painful questions being asked by the wife and mother of the Texas policeman the gang is accused of killing.

Jayne and Lori Hawkins join me now from Dallas.

Jayne, first to you, how closely are you monitoring this investigation?

JAYNE HAWKINS, SLAIN OFFICER'S MOTHER: I've done so many news shows today, I haven't had a chance actually to monitor it very carefully.

VAN SUSTEREN: What do you make of the fact, Jayne, that this van has been recovered and at least it's suspected that it's linked to two of these fugitives?

J. HAWKINS: I think they're going to be caught quickly. I think they're afraid. I think they're already making mistakes. I don't think it will be long.

VAN SUSTEREN: Lori, let me take you back now in time to December 13th, to what gave rise to this manhunt and the suspicion that these men killed your husband: Who do you hold accountable, if anybody, for this jailbreak, Lori?

LORI HAWKINS, SLAIN OFFICER'S WIFE: I hold, of course, all -- all the elected officials, all of the appointed officials. It's not just the guards and it's not just the handful of people that were on duty that day. It's everyone. It's the system.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jayne, do you agree that it's not just the correctional officers? I know you've been quite vocal about this.

J. HAWKINS: I have been, yes. You probably already know what I believe. I think it starts at the very top, with the elected officials, goes to the appointed officials, goes to the Department of Criminal Justice most definitely, and down to the prison employees that were very lax that day.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jayne, what could they have done differently, I mean, in hindsight? Where's the breakdown?

J. HAWKINS: I think there's a breakdown in the entire system, quite frankly. They're understaffed, they're underpaid. Because they're underpaid, there's a huge turnover; therefore, the guards have very little experience. You know, they don't stay long enough.

There are many principles and procedures that Mr. Stringfellow is very proud are intact, and some of those, I think, should not be intact, such as the minimum security in the maintenance department that day for maximum-security prisoners. It's ludicrous they were in that part of the prison. I think that's a procedure that definitely needs to be abolished.

It goes on and on and on. I mean, the escape went on for 2 1/2 hours and no one caught on. Something very wrong with that -- it goes without saying.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jayne, did they just learn of the problems on December 13th, or is it your view that they knew about this, this was just waiting to happen?

J. HAWKINS: I have documentation that this was brought to very high-level officials' attention over two years ago that this was imminent, something terrible was imminent. And they refused to look.

VAN SUSTEREN: Lori, do you place any of the blame, if I can use such a strong word, blame on Governor Perry? Was it his responsibility in any way?

L. HAWKINS: Actually, you know, this is Bush's prison system. Perry just took over the system. So if anything, it's Bush's system. It's not Perry's. He's just been passed the buck, if you will.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jayne, do you agree?

J. HAWKINS: Well, I must say that President Bush was here for a while, and of course, I think he knows the ins and outs of this prison system. And my hope is that he will come and help Governor Perry clean up this mess, yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: Lori, between December 13th and the night that your husband, Aubrey, was shot and killed, which was Christmas Eve, was he concerned about security on the street because these men were out -- at-large?

L. HAWKINS: To be perfectly honest with you, I didn't even know these men were at-large. Aubrey had never mentioned it to me, and I had never seen it on television or the news. I had no idea.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jayne, did Aubrey mention to you any increased concern?

J. HAWKINS: Not at all. I'm was aware that they were -- that they had escaped. However, it was not, as I remember, that highly publicized. Aubrey did not mention it to me at all, no.

VAN SUSTEREN: Lori, tell me a little bit about your husband. Why did he want to become a police officer, in the first place?

L. HAWKINS: Well, everybody who knew Aubrey knew that he would put other people's feelings before his any day of the week. And He wanted to help everybody that he could possibly help. That's just who he was. That's what he did. And he took great pride in doing that.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jayne, how long did Aubrey wan to be -- be a police officer? Is this a childhood dream?

J. HAWKINS: Absolutely, yes. I remember very well he was 6 years old, because that's the age he was when he moved to the house with the burglar alarm, and that's what got him hooked.

VAN SUSTEREN: Lori, there are four now in custody. They are going to face trial, and I assume -- although I don't know for sure -- that they'll be charged with the murder, indicted for the murder of Aubrey. Do you intend to attend the trial? Is that something you'd want to watch?

L. HAWKINS: Absolutely. I will be at every hearing, every trial. Every time they step in a courtroom, they are going to look me in the eye.

VAN SUSTEREN: Lori, you know, it's always -- one of the big issues in this country is the death penalty, and you know, obviously people who are very close to victims or our victim's relatives have a very different view of the death penalty. What's your view of the death penalty?

L. HAWKINS: I personally am a supporter of capital punishment, but to be perfectly honest with you, lethal injection is way too easy for these people.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jayne, what about you? Do you intend to attend any of the trials, and what's your view on the ultimate issue of death penalty, in the even that there's a conviction?

J. HAWKINS: Oh, there will be a conviction, there's no doubt about that. I just hope it's a quick one.

Of course, I'll be at the trials. I'm sure I'll be asked to testify.

I couldn't stop the life of any one, even George Rivas, quite frankly. I leave that to the system to do whatever they do.

I agree with Lori in a way: It seems that an injection is too kind. I don't know. I can't say that. I wish that they were very miserable people before they died. That would seem fair to me. But I'm not in control of that, so I leave it to the system.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. A special thanks to Jayne and Lori Hawkins.

Next, THE POINT returns to Colorado, where normally quiet towns and highways now crackle with activity and fear.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: The city of Colorado Springs had seemed light years away from a prison break story out of Texas, an all-out police search, and the glare of the national media.

For the latest on the search for the "Texas Two," I'm joined by Agent Rich Marianos of the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

Rich, I'm curious about the fact that two of them weren't picked with the other four, and of course, one committed suicide. Do we know why they were separated?

RICH MARIANOS, FEDERAL BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS: No, we don't know why they're separated at this time. You know, we can only surmise and guess at this point.

VAN SUSTEREN: Do we know if they made any effort to contact friends or family?

MARIANOS: You know, what we're doing right now in conjunction with the U.S. Marshals Service is trying to isolate, you know, various phone conversations, bills, you know, hotels that they may have used, trying to figure out what area that they're, you know, operating from.

VAN SUSTEREN: What about supporting themselves? You know, they've got to eat. We haven't heard any reports -- at least I haven't -- of robberies or burglaries. How much money can they possibly have?

MARIANOS: No, but I think in the original sporting goods store robbery, they recovered quite a bit of currency that they're using to get by right now. You know, we executed three search warrants in the past, you know, 24 hours, and during the course of the search warrants, you know, we recovered some money, but it wasn't near the original amount that was reported.

VAN SUSTEREN: You're saying quite a bit of currency: How much in that December 24th burglary did they get?

MARIANOS: You know, I want to say several -- maybe $30,000, $40,000. I don't know the exact number right now. But you know, it's enough money to get by for several weeks and be on the run.

You know, the important thing right now is that, you know, with ATF executing the three search warrants, we've recovered 48 of the original 60 guns. So we're down to only 12 missing firearms, which, you know, we're very proud of and very happy. The number's down from seven down to two, and the guns from 60 down to 12.

So you know, we're pretty happy at this point, you know, especially searching for these individuals on the streets right now.

VAN SUSTEREN: How much firepower is left in the 12?

MARIANOS: There's quite a bit, but I think the majority of the 12 guns left are handguns. Just recently. the last search warrant we executed, which was on the Cherokee that they used or that they were arrested in, we recovered 11 firearms to include the slain officer's weapon, a Glock 17.

VAN SUSTEREN: Why do you think they picked Woodland Park? Was that just an accident or was there a reason to go there?

MARIANOS: You know, I can't figure it out myself, and it's something that puzzled me for the last 48 hours, trying to figure out why they picked Woodland Park. But you know, the positions they took, the areas they lived, they behaved themselves and they were pretty much lived a life of anonymity. They weren't a lot of calls in that area.

You know, and we discussed it with officers from the Irving police department, you know, none of us believed that Woodland Park would ever come up during the course of this investigation.

VAN SUSTEREN: What were they actually doing in Woodland Park?

MARIANOS: They were just getting by, living out of the trailer, working on their cars. You know, we didn't have any information that they were trying to gain any employment, or you know, they were out committing crime, because, you know, like I said they were pretty anonymous. You know, nobody, you know, started calling the police or made any law enforcement notification to say, hey, listen, I think your seven fugitives are in Woodland Park, Colorado.

VAN SUSTEREN: You know, Rich, they left such an ominous note on December 13 when they broke out of Texas prison, something to the effect that you haven't heard the last of us. We had the tragic shooting that they're accused of on December 24th of Aubrey Hawkins the police officer. But have they been accused or a part of any other violence since then?

MARIANOS: No, we don't have any reports, especially in my area, Colorado Springs, of any reports of violence involving these seven individuals. But you know, from the amount of firepower that they had and some of the predisposition ideas, like you stated -- you know, the prison note -- these are some very dangerous armed career criminals. And you know, like I said, you know, we're happy that four are in custody right now, and hopefully we can bring them to Texas as soon as possible to face their capital crime.

VAN SUSTEREN: You know, it's so interesting, though, because, you know, they all have horrible violent pasts, they have a tremendous amount of guns, they left an ominous note, they're accused of killing a police officer. But in a period of over a month, that's the only act of violence, thankfully, that they're connected to.

MARIANOS: Yes, but also, you've got to look that they were incarcerated, all of them, for a period of time. So you know, they've just brought themselves back into society. So you know, I'm not a doctor of psychology by any means. But how do you characterize, you know, when they're incarcerated for so long and then they're back on the street, at what point do you commit crime? You know, it's a tough question. It's a tough question for all of us.

VAN SUSTEREN: Are there any hints in that van today as to where they might be going?

MARIANOS: No, not right now. Like I said earlier, I have my nine agents on the street with a group of Colorado Springs police officers. AS phone calls come in, as leads come in, they're working in conjunction with the FBI, U.S. Marshals, and they're just going out hitting the streets, following up on every lead, every phone call, every person that provides any information to the whereabouts and the locations of these two career criminals.

VAN SUSTEREN: When they left that van, do you think they left on foot or did they have another car?

MARIANOS: I -- I don't know. There was no physical evidence whatsoever to give us an indication that they stole another car, purchased another vehicle, you know, took off a 10-speed bike. You know, we're very fortunate that an aggressive, very smart Colorado Springs officer was able to locate the van, you know what I mean, and work in conjunction with all of us, you know, to find it.

Once we found it, we were able to get a search warrant for the van. We searched through it, didn't find any weapons. But once again, we didn't find any physical evidence tying them to another vehicle or another method to get away. VAN SUSTEREN: Are the other four in custody talking?

MARIANOS: You know, I don't know, to tell you the truth, because the Irving Police Department were the ones who are handling, you know, the interviews and the initial, you know, work-up on the four offenders.

You know, we found that to be the most serious crime, the shooting and death of their own police officer. So, we wanted to make sure that they handled the interviews and that they worked the investigation having the greatest knowledge and also traveling from Texas.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, well, good luck catching them. We hope it happens soon. My thanks to ATF Agent Rich Marianos.

Coming up on THE POINT, a different kind of media day; the questions that will last longer than just one Super Bowl. THE POINT returns after a quick break and our "MONEYLINE" update.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: I like sports, but media day for the Super Bowl teams usually leaves me cold. Who needs the endless questions about what it's like to be in the big game, who they think will win, and so on. We've heard it all before.

But today, some of the questions and answers caught my attention. Tonight's final point: Get used to it. A couple of weeks ago, I talked about Baltimore Ravens' linebacker Ray Lewis. After watching last year's Super Bowl in Atlanta, he went night-clubbing with some friends. His crowd ended up in a brawl that left two young men dead. He was arrested and charged with murder, but the charges were dropped during his trial.

Lewis returned to his team, had a stellar season, and this year, is playing in the Super Bowl. But today, he got angry when reporters didn't want to stick to the usual, "who's going to win" questions. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAY LEWIS, BALTIMORE RAVENS: Yes, I've got money. Yes, I'm black. Yes, I'm blessed, but at the same time, let's final out the real truth. The real truth is this was never about those two kids that's dead in the street. This is about Ray Lewis, and that's the same thing this about and that's not right for nobody.

Don't be mad at me because I was on center stage. The person to be mad at is Paul Howard, the mayor of Atlanta, the people who never said one time we're going find out who killed these people. They said we're going to get Ray Lewis. And Ray Lewis was never the guy.

But, anyway, that's a chapter that we're trying to get way past. So, we can do it either a couple of ways. I've said it. I did what I needed to do. Either we can go and we can talk about football, we can talk about the Super Bowl because my teammates, I'm here -- we're trying to win the Super Bowl. We're not here to focus on Ray Lewis. What Ray Lewis went through, that was year ago. Let it go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAN SUSTEREN: I'll let Ray Lewis have the final word on this. But what do you think?

Send an e-mail to askgreta@cnn.com. That's one word, askgreta.

Next on "LARRY KING LIVE," former Texas governor Ann Richards is the guest. Hugh Downs is the guest host. I'm Greta Van Susteren. And be sure to watch THE POINT tomorrow for a rare live interview with Judge Ronnie White, the man Attorney General-nominee John Ashcroft kept off the federal bench. Good night now from Washington.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com