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McVeigh Execution May be Postponed Due to Recently Discovered Documents

Aired May 11, 2001 - 10:25   ET


LEON HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Back now to our top story this morning, the pending execution of Timothy McVeigh for the bombing of that Alfred P. Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City and this revelation that the FBI had withheld some 3,100 documents from the prosecution and from the defense in this case. And if McVeigh does, because of that, decide to seek a stay of execution, his case would wind up before a federal judge in Denver.

CNN's Gina London is in Denver this morning and she's got an overview of the legal process for us -- Gina.

GINA LONDON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning to you, Leon. That's right, the building you see behind me is the one in which federal Judge Richard Matsch presided over the original trial and if there is a stay of execution motion filed, then it is, as you mentioned, very likely it's going to come right back here into this federal courtroom.

Now, we have heard from the chambers, the court itself saying that they are on notice that this could happen, that they have not received anything. No files are pending. But they are very much on notice.

Now, as mentioned earlier, it is a possibility, however, that the Department of Justice, the federal government, could ask for the stay of execution and it wouldn't come from Nathan Chambers, the defense attorney for McVeigh, who has now got those 3,000 pages of documents in front of him in his office. He said he's going to be going over that, poring over it throughout the weekend.

Meantime, a former prosecutor, Patrick Ryan, in the McVeigh case, says that this was news to them, as well.


PATRICK RYAN, FORMER MCVEIGH PROSECUTOR: It's very unfortunate. You know, one of the things that has been said over and over again since yesterday afternoon is that the government failed to turn these materials over to the defense and the point has not been made that the FBI didn't turn these materials over to the prosecution either. These were not materials that we're familiar with either.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LONDON: Now, again, of course, Tim McVeigh, the convicted bomber in Oklahoma City is waiting in the penitentiary, federal penitentiary in Terra Haute, Indiana. Now, it is dependent upon his input and his approval, Leon, on whether or not there may be that motion filed.

The attorneys here in Denver say that they are conferring with him, that he is a very studious person. He is likely to be very thorough and go over things in detail so they are conferring with him again today about what their next move may be. And again, we are hearing from Nathan Chambers here in Denver that if there is a motion filed, the soonest it may come is Monday. And the clerk's office opens here in the court at 8:00 a.m. Mountain Time. That's 10:00 a.m. Eastern.

Reporting live in Denver, Gina London -- back to you, Leon.

HARRIS: All right, thanks, Gina. We'll talk with you later on.

Now, let's talk with our Keith Oppenheim. As we turn and change our focus from legal issues to the execution that actually may now be in limbo. Keith, who is outside the federal penitentiary where Tim McVeigh sits on death row right now -- Keith.

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Leon, yeah. A couple of points.

First of all, there's going to be a likely meeting between McVeigh and his attorneys. A couple of them are in town. So we do expect that in terms of the decision-making process that Timothy McVeigh could go through that Gina London was referring to that that could begin as he sits down with his attorneys inside the U.S. penitentiary here in Terra Haute.

Now, I did talk to prison officials about that and they said that while the time of any prisoner on death row is extremely controlled, that they will be fairly liberal about the amount of time that Timothy McVeigh can spend with his attorneys.

In terms of preparation for Wednesday's scheduled execution, it's really hard to exaggerate how much has gone into this. If you take a little tour down the road, you'll see there is one area that's cordoned off for pro-death penalty protesters, another one next to it for anti-death penalty protesters. A little further down the road you'll see an entire camp and trailers for the media. And on Wednesday, just another example, public schools are scheduled to be closed just so that there is no interference with school buses or any problems because this is going to bring a lot of people into Terra Haute.

The warden of this federal penitentiary, Harley Lapin (ph), and other staff here, have attended four other executions just to prepare for what is to be their, the first federal execution since 1963.

Now, it's also important to note that changes at the last minute are common to any execution, whether it be at the state level or at the federal level. But this is certainly probably adding another level of apprehension to the federal officials here who want to make sure that everything goes right -- Leon.

HARRIS: Keith, I'm curious, you say the warden told you that he went to four other executions as sort of a rehearsal for this. Can you tell us what he told you he went there to see or to learn?

OPPENHEIM: Well, I didn't speak to Harley Lapin about that personally. I talked to prison staff here.


OPPENHEIM: But the point of going to these other executions, Leon, was just to observe. Keep in mind that while they know how to do it, they know the mix of chemicals, they have staff who are well trained and well rehearsed by going through procedures here, it's also helpful in terms of what they have in front of them to do to go to witness other executions and get the full sense of details that goes into it.

HARRIS: Interesting. Thanks so much. Appreciate that. Keith Oppenheim reporting live this morning from Terra Haute, Indiana -- Daryn.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: As McVeigh's lawyers review newly disclosed evidence from the FBI, we're taking a closer look at the government case against McVeigh. During the trial, the prosecution presented a key witness who linked McVeigh to a critical piece of evidence, the rented Ryder truck.

CNN's Susan Candiotti spoke with the man who helped convict McVeigh.


SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Eldon Elliott visited the Oklahoma City bombing memorial a year ago, the memories were painful.

ELDON ELLIOTT, RYDER TRUCK RENTAL OWNER: It's sad, real sad. I think it'll always bother me.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): Do you think you'll ever forget it?

ELLIOTT: I hope not.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): It was Eldon Elliott who ran the Ryder outlet in Junction City, Kansas where the bomb truck was rented. The driver used a false I.D., Robert Kling. He left no fingerprints behind. Elliott was watching television two days after the attack and he saw Timothy McVeigh led away by the FBI.

ELLIOTT: I said that's him.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): No doubt in your mind?

ELLIOTT: No doubt in my mind. I knew right away that that was him. CANDIOTTI (voice-over): At the trial, Eldon Elliott was the only eyewitness who could tie McVeigh directly to the bomb truck.

(on camera): When you looked into his eyes in the courtroom, what did you see?

ELLIOTT: He just looked like another person that -- you just can't imagine that as nice as he seemed and looking at you, you wouldn't think that anyone could do that.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Now in semi-retirement in Arizona, Elliott often wears this shirt he had made up.

(on camera): "Ryder Truck -- We Remember Our Customers."

(voice-over): Elliott saw McVeigh twice at his Ryder shop, once when McVeigh paid for the rental and later when he came back to get the truck. Elliott says the second time there was a second man.

ELLIOTT: A lot of times I wake up thinking, trying to think who that second person could have been.

CANDIOTTI: The FBI says McVeigh came in alone. Elliott insists there was someone else.

ELLIOTT: I don't know if he was just with him there, brought him out, if he was in on it, I don't know. You always wonder.

CANDIOTTI: Elliott says he's not sure he wants to be watching the news May 16th, the day McVeigh is scheduled to be executed for killing 168 people.

(on camera): Do you think he is deserving of that punishment?

ELLIOTT: Yes, I do.


ELLIOTT: Because no one should take that many lives.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Susan Candiotti, CNN, Oklahoma City.


KAGAN: And Susan's in Denver today. She's with us on the phone. Susan, I understand you talked with Timothy McVeigh's father?

CANDIOTTI: Yes, Daryn, just a little while ago, and he is, doesn't know what to think about the latest developments, as well. He, too, has from the very start been pained by the Oklahoma City bombing and can't understand why his son did it. He said that regarding the latest developments, he doesn't know what to think about all of it.

I asked him whether he would favor the court's issuing a stay and whether he wants Timothy's attorneys to ask for a stay and he said, in his words, "It all depends on what Tim wants to do."

He understands that the lawyers are going to be meeting, or at least one of them meeting with Timothy McVeigh today at the prison in Terra Haute, Indiana. But beyond that, he said he is waiting to find out from the lawyers about what is going to happen next.

He last saw his son to a -- during a final visit to death row back on April 10th. Since then, he has only received a letter from Tim and he said in the letter it sounds like "the same old Tim." He said that his son was simply advising him on things that he could do this summer, but Mr. McVeigh would not elaborate on all of that. He said that he had been informed through Timothy McVeigh's lawyers that he should not expect any more phone calls from his son from the prison. His son didn't want to make any more calls to his family because of the restrictions put on those phone calls by the Bureau of Prisons, among other things, that the calls cannot be recorded.

Beyond that, Mr. McVeigh is in the dark and he is waiting like the rest of us are to find out whether, indeed, there will be a stay of execution. Naturally, Mr. McVeigh has said time and time again that he does not want his son to die. He is against capital punishment. But beyond that, again, he says he's waiting to see what his son wants to do.

KAGAN: Susan, let me interrupt you here for just a second. We're getting word the Associated Press is reporting that the Justice Department will recommend that Timothy McVeigh's execution be delayed, be put off until Wednesday. That would, that's news, of course, to us here at CNN and also, I'm sure, to Mr. McVeigh.

CANDIOTTI: Well, Daryn, this is one of the things that law enforcement and Justice Department sources were telling me as of last night, that it was one of the things that they were considering, and that is to go to the court themselves, to go to the trial court judge here in Denver, Justice Department Richard Matsch, and ask the judge for time to allow the defense attorneys to review all of these new documents which the Justice Department maintains is redundant material. They say none of it is exculpatory in nature. None of it would indicate, they claim, Timothy McVeigh's innocence.

And so that was one of the things they said that they expected to happen this day, to ask the court to go ahead and ask for a stay in order to give all the parties time to review this before the execution takes place.

KAGAN: Susan Candiotti in Denver, thank you for that latest update and sharing that conversation with Timothy McVeigh's father. Once again, breaking news here at CNN. We're getting word, the Associated Press reporting the Justice Department will recommend that the execution of Timothy McVeigh be delayed in light of this latest news of the missing documents that have suddenly appeared just days before the execution was to take place.

Let's get some legal perspective on this deepening drama as it develops and bring in Michael Gerhardt. He is a law professor at The College of William and Mary. Professor, good morning. Thanks for joining us.


KAGAN: What do you make of this latest development of the Justice Department suggesting that the, that there be a stay of the execution of Timothy McVeigh?

GERHARDT: I think that it was inevitable. I think this is a very dramatic case and that, of course, is a great understatement. But I think if the federal government's going to put Mr. McVeigh to death, and they certainly intend to do that, they want to make sure that every stone has been overturned and that it's the fairest process possible and given these recent revelations, I think the Justice Department has to go, take the further step to make sure that there's nothing in there that's going to embarrass them further or prejudice their case against him.

KAGAN: But the interesting twist here is even though there were these missing documents and it does appear to be unfair, Timothy McVeigh has confessed to the crime.

GERHARDT: That's absolutely...

KAGAN: So the end game is the same.

GERHARDT: You're absolutely right. The end game is likely to be the same. The outcome is likely to be certain, but maybe not quite as swift as we thought. And this actually might further, unfortunately, Mr. McVeigh's efforts to embarrass the federal government. One would hope that wouldn't be the case, but -- and that's, precisely, I think, what's at stake here is the government doesn't want to be embarrassed any further. They want to make sure that when this deed is ultimately done that it was the result of the fairest process possible.

KAGAN: Well, the other thing this move does and the government asking for the execution to have a stay, for it to be put off, it takes the power out of the hands of Timothy McVeigh. Otherwise, we would have waited the whole weekend just waiting to see what he decided he wanted to do.

GERHARDT: I think that's a very good point. They don't want to allow him to be the one to direct the momentum or the outcome here. They want to be the in driver's seat. They want to be able to make final judgments as best they can and again ensure that this is a fair process, that nothing in a sense that would have prejudiced the trial is in there and if there is any such thing, they want to be the first to disclose it.

KAGAN: What kind of time frame would you predict we're looking at here? When you ask for a stay is there a certain amount of time that goes with that?

GERHARDT: No. There's no set amount of time. I think that certainly from the government's point of view they want to move as quickly as possible. But again, they want to be as fair as possible. I also think that it becomes rather cruel, in a sense, to sort of have stays and then undo the stays. So at some point I suspect a judge will intervene and set a time frame for final action.

KAGAN: But even with a stay, even if you allow the time for the defense to go back and look over these documents that clearly should have been turned over a long time ago, there's no getting around it, this is a huge embarrassment for the FBI and the federal government.

GERHARDT: Oh, this is an absolutely huge embarrassment, and I think particularly tragic in a case in which this person created -- this person committed, of course, a horrific deed and, in fact, based on his own perverse ideas about what the government's misconduct was in all sorts of areas. And so, I think in a way it just, this, it's just another tragic aspect of this case because it, in a sense, it kind of taints the government's case and efforts to bring this to closure.

KAGAN: A number of newspapers reporting today that this is just an indication of a larger problem with the computer system of the FBI and it points out some other cases like the Wen Ho Lee case. But in terms of Timothy McVeigh and the death penalty, what do you think this will do to the death penalty discussion in this country that already appears to be heating up?

GERHARDT: Well, there's no doubt at all that this is going to provide some further justification for the efforts to make sure particular in death penalty cases that there isn't just the fairest process possible, but the fairest process possible includes making sure that mistakes like this don't happen again.

I think critics of the death penalty point out that the government isn't always forthcoming, the government does cut corners, and you don't want to have that happen in a case in which the final penalty is going to be death.

KAGAN: Professor Michael Gerhardt from the College of William & Mary. Professor, thanks for being with us and giving us some legal perspective. Once again, if you're just joining us, the breaking news coming from the Justice Department that, indeed, government officials are asking for a stay of the execution of Timothy McVeigh, which was set to take place on Wednesday -- Leon.

HARRIS: Well, let's get the latest on that particular angle. Our Jeanne Meserve is standing by in Washington. She's been working on that for us -- Jeanne.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Leon, we now have talked to Mindy Tucker, who is the chief spokesman for the attorney general, and she has told CNN that there is a strong possibility that the attorney, John Ashcroft, this afternoon will seek a stay in the execution of Timothy McVeigh, a strong possibility, she says, that he will seek a stay in this case.

This is not definitive. She does not say he is going to do it, but certainly it leaves the door wide open to that possibility, some suggesting that the Justice Department should be out in front on this because of the magnitude and importance of this case, that it might be important for the Justice Department to ensure that every I is dotted and every T is crossed.

Ashcroft expected to hold a press conference some time today. We don't have the precise hour as yet, but Mindy Tucker, his spokeswoman, saying it is a strong possibility that Ashcroft will announce that he will seek a stay in McVeigh's execution, now scheduled for would -- back to you.

HARRIS: All right, thank you, Jeanne.

At this time we want to welcome our international viewers who are joining us on our sister network, CNN International. At this time let's go now to Terra Haute, Indiana, which is ground zero for this particular issue. Our Keith Oppenheim standing by there -- Keith, what's the word you're hearing there?

OPPENHEIM: Well, nothing exactly yet. But I can tell you that the amount of preparation that has been building up for next Wednesday is great and the news that we're getting from the Justice Department would be a significant change in the plans. As I mentioned in an earlier live shot with you, that it's not unusual for there to be problems like this, that it's very common with executions on the state level for there to be a stay or something that happens that creates a change in plan.

The difference with the Timothy McVeigh execution is it's not only the first federal execution since 1963, but the amount of infrastructure that's here is great. There are all sorts of trailers that have been set up for the media. There is a section for pro and anti-capital punishment forces to stand.

They have staff that have prepared and if, let's say, there is a delay in this execution that lasted for several weeks or months, it would mean that Timothy McVeigh would not be the first scheduled federal execution, because Juan Garza, who is one of the federal inmates on death row here, his scheduled date for execution is June 19th and that, potentially, I'm sort of going down a speculative road here, but that potentially would change the Timothy McVeigh execution date that might come at a later time because it potentially might not be the first federal execution.

So we're getting into some possibilities here, but I think they are fair possibilities to look at at this point given the ramifications of this announcement from Justice -- back to you.

HARRIS: Well, as you heard the word that we got from our Jeanne Meserve in Washington is that this is fairly certain or actually the source she's talked with, Mindy Tucker, was saying it's fairly certain that this is going to happen, this is a strong sentiment in the Justice Department to make this happen. Any, is there any way you can get a hold of the warden there to find out exactly what kind of precautions they would have to go through first off to delay this whole thing?

OPPENHEIM: Well, it's, we're going to be talking to prison officials shortly as they are reacting to the news themselves. But I should point out, Leon, that this is not an eventuality that they have not prepared for. What they did prepare for was that it was going to happen. Schools, as I had mentioned, were going to be closed on Wednesday, lots of things in place. But part of the preparation is that it could be called off at the last minute. And so they will have to work on a rescheduled date, either with the Bureau of Prisons or, depending on what happens in the courts. That's part of the process and it's something that they look at when they set up a major event like this.

HARRIS: Yeah, and it's a process that may frustrate some family members and survivors who have been waiting a long time for this moment.

Keith Oppenheim...

OPPENHEIM: I should add that it probably -- yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say...

HARRIS: I'm sorry, go ahead.

OPPENHEIM: Probably, it probably frustrates the families a great deal. I think as far as the prison staff go, as apprehensive as they may be, this is part of what they prepare for. They know that these things can happen.

HARRIS: Understood. Understood. Keith Oppenheim reporting live from Terra Haute, Indiana -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Yeah, harder to understand, as he said, for the family members. We'll be talking to a mother in the next hour who lost her daughter in the Oklahoma City bombing.

Right now, though, we want to bring in our legal analyst, Greta Van Susteren, who is in our Washington bureau -- Greta, in light of this news that it looks like the execution will receive a stay, what happens with that time?

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what will happen is that in the meantime the defense will have an opportunity to review all the documents and when they review all the documents, they'll make a determination whether they should file any other motion, any motion in connection with whether or not the trial, for instance, was in in any way infected by the fact that they didn't get the documents, that it would have resulted in a very different verdict had they had the original documents.

I must say one thing, Daryn, something that strikes me about this is, you know, I covered the case for CNN and Judge Matsch was furious at different points when the prosecution failed to turn over documents. But what you have to understand about this case is that there were tens of thousands of documents and I must tip my hat to our Justice Department, the fact that on the eve of this execution, or almost the eve of it, that they would make this announcement. Because I doubt that anybody would have discovered the fact that these documents had not been turned over. And it shows at least, in many ways, at least from one viewpoint, is that the Justice Department is committed to make sure that this whole process from start to finish goes along just as the rules require.

So while some people may be disturbed by the Justice Department's action in failing to turn them over earlier, or some people may be disturbed if the attorney general does ask for a postponement, you've got to stop and take a breath and look at the fact that the Justice Department, you know, that in many ways we should be proud do our Justice Department, that they have said these documents weren't revealed, we don't think they're very important, we're going to turn them over to the defense. But in the meantime, we may seek a postponement.

KAGAN: All right, Greta, we're going to have you stand by because we have someone on the phone we really want to talk to, Paul Heath. He is a survivor from the Oklahoma City bombing. Mr. Heath, thanks for talking with us this morning.

DR. PAUL HEATH, BOMBING VICTIM: Thank you for calling.

KAGAN: Can you tell us what your reaction is that the execution of Timothy McVeigh will most likely be delayed past Wednesday?

HEATH: Well, you know, this has been a bumpy road to justice and this is one more bump and I couldn't agree with Greta's analysis more, that I want the same thing that any rational citizen would want, even though I am a survivor, and that is we want a fair and competent trial that will not be -- well, and legal proceedings that will not be questioned any time in the future.

What I won't be surprised about is Timothy McVeigh's possible request that his execution go forward regardless. I think he would love to have it go forward in all this confusion. I'm glad that the judge as well as the Bureau of Prisons and the Pardon and Parole Board has delayed the execution, if they have, to give the public, the judge, the defense and the prosecution a chance to look at these documents.

But let me remind everybody that this is an ongoing investigation. We don't, I don't know yet when these documents came in, what they're about, and neither does anybody else. But let's get it cleared up and those of us who are here in Oklahoma City can and will wait until the appropriate time and we'll be ready for whatever is next in this criminal adventure.

KAGAN: Dr. Heath, can you tell us what you were doing in the Murrah federal building on that day and what your experience was when the bomb went off?

HEATH: I was a licensed psychologist and the head of the, the officer in charge of the Department of Veterans Affairs on the fifth floor, about 65 feet from the bomb truck.

KAGAN: So you were at work that day?

HEATH: That's correct. And Mr. McVeigh was in my office looking for work, gave me his real name on Thursday before the bombing. And he was very gentle to talk to. But the last thing he told me was, I'd asked him if he was related to a McVeigh family I knew up at Cushing (ph), and he's got a real long, bony, skinny fingers. And he said, "Dr. Heath, remember, my name is McVeigh but you don't spell it M-C-V- A-Y." And I teased him a bit and said, "Oh, gosh, you missed out. That's a nice family." And he said, "No, I didn't. I come from a nice family." I said, "Oh you know I'm only teasing you."

But he was in my office. He was in the agriculture office on the fifth floor. I talked to a woman just yesterday that was on the elevator with him that day who was on her way to Oklahoma City to be a part of the closed circuit television feed.

KAGAN: Had you planned on going to the execution or witnessing it?

HEATH: I'm the one that hired the attorney to make it possible for the others to work with the Bureau of Prisons to make the closed circuit television feed a reality. But I will only go if one of the clients thinks I need to be with him in order to view it. I have no personal need to view the execution. I served on the state mental health board here in this state. I've reviewed many, many people's cases that committed suicide by cop and if anybody's read the American terrorist book, you can read it in black and white, that McVeigh planned all along to have the government put him to death and then claimed that, you know, that maybe it was the government's fault.

KAGAN: Well, Dr. Paul Heath, you have a take on this that so few of us can and we appreciate your time and your perspective on this. Thank you, sir.

HEATH: Well, thank you and best of luck.

KAGAN: We appreciate it. Thank you -- Leon.

HARRIS: So he was a state (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It's very interesting hearing his comments. Let's get some more comments right now from Jim Denny. Jim Denny is joining us on the telephone. Jim, Mr. Denny lost his children in this blast. I'm sorry, injured. These children were injured in this blast. I'm sorry. The information, I'm getting the information mixed up. They were injured, Rebecca and Brandon (ph). Is that correct, Mr. Denny?


HARRIS: OK, I'm sorry that...

DENNY: Oh, no. No problem at all.

HARRIS: What...

DENNY: This whole thing is a little confusing, isn't it?

HARRIS: It just never stops, does it?

DENNY: It never stops. HARRIS: Well, what are your thoughts now after hearing this news?

DENNY: Well, it's, listen, people make mistakes. One thing I hope is that people don't point the finger at the Justice Department. They made a mistake. They're rectifying their mistake and I think the same government that Timothy McVeigh wanted to destroy is now going to give him a stay of execution, actually save his life for a while. I don't think there's any doubt in the guilt. I mean they've proven he rented the truck. He admitted pulling it up and blowing up the building. He was found guilty by a jury and sentenced to death by a jury. So I don't think there's any doubt there.

But I think the Justice Department really wants to be fair and like I say, it's amazing that the same system he says that is cruel to people and doesn't work is the system that's going to probably let him live a while longer.

HARRIS: Yeah, and at the same time, this also is the system that's going to make it a little bit, take a little time in giving you and others who have suffered from this incident the justice that you all deserve. I'm curious as to how you can be so acquiescent about this particular matter in the face of that and the fact that the FBI just, through a simple oversight like that, may have bungled this whole situation?

DENNY: Well, you know, within 20 minutes after the blast when I saw the -- well, I was standing 100 feet across the street from the building and saw the day care center was blown out of the building, I guess it was faith that took over. We have a very strong spiritual faith and when I met Claudia down there on the south side, she had not seen the blown up side of the building yet, I grabbed her by the shoulders and told her no matter what happens that we're in this together.

So I think we were setting up our future and god was kind enough to give us our two children back. And our focus is, our focus is on our family and going ahead in our lives and yeah, it's a little bit of a delay and we believe in the death penalty. But we believe in the death penalty because it's justice not revenge, and I think that's important.

And justice will be served and the Justice Department wants to make sure that they're covering every base.

HARRIS: Yeah. We just saw pictures of the two kids. How are they now?

DENNY: They're doing great. As a matter of fact, they're in, they're playing baseball now for the YMCA and it's the most amazing thing I've ever seen. They've got the greatest attitude in the world and how could Claudia and I feel any different?

HARRIS: It sounds like they got it from their dad.

DENNY: Well, I hope so. I hope so. HARRIS: All right, listen, thank you very much, Mr. Denny.


HARRIS: Jim Denny, thanks much and good luck to you down the road. We'll be talking to you, no doubt. Take care.



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