THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're here to serve. That's my firm belief. We're all here to serve.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's still under-representation of women in positions of power and influence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our friend was killed. Who is next? Who is next?
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RICHARD ROTH, HOST: Hello, I'm Richard Roth. Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. There are 189 countries in the United Nations. They are all represented by ambassadors. Care to guess how many of the 189 are women? Ten.
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(voice-over): And here they are. Well, most of them as of last November. They were honored at the first annual "Women who make a difference" awards luncheon. But despite women's rights advances, it is different when a country decides to send a female ambassador to the United Nations because it just doesn't happen so often.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This investigation, prosecution and prevention of offenses...
ROTH: Claudia Fritsche from the principality of Liechtenstein is the dean of Women Ambassadors of the United Nations.
CLAUDIA FRITSCHE, LIECHTENSTEIN AMBASSADOR TO UN: I myself keep reminding myself that we should never forget, we the women ambassadors, what it took us to get where we are today, because for none of us it was easy.
ROTH: The ambassadors have endured tasteless jokes in front of them and diplomatic slights when their husbands are presumed to the ambassador. They don't worry about themselves, but the impact of a gender gap.
PENNY WENSLEY, AUSTRALIAN AMBASSADOR TO UN: We all think that a better balance of women in positions of influence is going to lead to better outcomes for all men and women.
ROTH (on camera): How come we don't see more women permanent representatives from Asian countries?
WANG YINGFAN, CHINESE AMBASSADOR TO UN: Well, as I have said, we wish that the countries or the member states, they would positively consider how to increase the participation of women diplomats, including ambassadors.
MADINA JARBUSSYNOVA, KAZAKHSTAN AMBASSADOR TO UN: The gender issue is one of the important issues in the UN reform in general. And we should show the example.
ROTH (voice-over): Internally, the UN's strives for a 50/50 split between men and women, but success is slow. And there are fewer women in professional diplomatic posts assigned by UN countries.
CHRISTIE WHITMAN, U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL SECRETARY: I don't think the world will be perfect if all leaders were women. It might be a little bit better off, but I don't they'd be perfect if all leaders were women.
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ROTH: Joining me now in the New York studio, Australia's ambassador to the United Nations, Penny Wensley, Australia's first woman envoy to the UN. The ambassador of Barbados is the United Nations June Clarke. She's been with the UN for nearly two years. Representing the nation of Liechtenstein, Ambassador Claudia Fritsche. She's been with the UN since 1990. And over at our United Nations office, Jamaica's ambassador to the United Nations, Patricia Durrant. She is the only woman on the UN Security Council, serving with 14 male ambassadors.
Let me start with Ambassador Wensley. Why are there are so few women ambassadors at the UN?
WENSLEY: Hello, Richard. It's great to be here.
I think you have to point the finger not at the UN, but at member states. Governments nominate their representatives. And 10 and in fact it will be coming down to eight shortly is a reflection of the decisions of member states, who nominate.
ROTH: Your post has ended here at the United Nations. So then they'll be eight. It's like a murder mystery. Ambassador Fritsche, why are there so few in your opinion?
FRITSCHE: I think Ambassador Wensley's absolutely correct in saying that if governments appointed more women to lead their foreign representations, the numbers would be considerably higher. The UN is maybe a place where it has been extremely -- that the number has been extremely low. I know for example in Geneva there are about 15 women ambassadors. And in Washington, there are about 15 or 16. So the UN respectively, the governments represented there have to do better. ROTH: Ambassador Clark, I mean, is there a glass ceiling? Is there a code among these countries? I mean, let's not go too high with how many are there. It just -- the difference is so glaring: 10 out of 189.
JUNE CLARKE, BARBADOS AMBASSADOR TO UN: No, I don't think there is a scheme to do this. I think it's just the way things happen. In most countries leading positions of management are held by men. Increasingly, women are moving up into positions. And certainly in my case, our government has now got at the senior levels of some of the ministries, ladies.
So I think that it will come, but I think that perhaps in terms of the UN, being the organization that it is, governments perhaps need to be a little bit a more sensitive in their choices in order to enter a more...
WENSLEY: We've heard this for a long time. "It's coming. It's coming. They're in the pipeline and it'll take generations." I think this is symptomatic of a much larger problem, that there is significant under-representation of women in decisionmaking positions in governments, in parliaments, in diplomacy. And we need considerably more effort to bring about change. We have to work harder to get more governments to nominate ambassadors to the UN.
ROTH: Ambassador Durrant over at the United Nations, Ambassador Clarke talked about sensitivity or sensitive feelings, what is it like for yourself inside the Security Council, where you're surrounded by men?
PATRICIA DURRANT, JAMAICA AMBASSADOR TO UN: Well I'd say, first of all, Richard, from Jamaica and in most of the foreign services in the Caribbean, for us, it is taken for granted that we have a good mix of men and women. In fact in our present foreign service, the three under secretaries in the ministry are women. And my predecessor here is a woman. So for us, we take it for granted that we can work comfortably in a male environment, as well as in a mixed environment.
And this the approach that I have brought to my work in the United Nations and in the Security Council.
ROTH: But it's got to be different inside that chamber, inside the closed consultations. Aren't there some differences for you?
DURRANT: No, because you have to bring the same kind of professionalism to bear that other members of the Security Council have to bring. We look at issues. We look at conflict situations. And therefore, here we are representing our countries. And in the Security Council in particular, we are reflecting the views of the wider membership. Those of us who are elected members are elected by the general assembly. And we see ourselves, not as men or women, but looking at the wider issues of concern to the general membership.
ROTH: Before your term started there at the Security Council, it was Madeleine Albright who was the only woman ambassador there. And I think she started or helped create a bit of a network, perhaps it was people before her. But there's a bit of the network of the women in the UN, women in high ranking places, women who had -- lead some of the UN specialized agencies.
Can you tell us about this network? I'm not trying to expose some secret ladies club here, but tell us about it, what it all means?
DURRANT: That has been a very useful way of networking. It brings together and we meet from time to time, senior women in the secretariat, senior women ambassadors. I recall when I was here posted in the 1980s, the ambassador from Barbados, Ruth Nita Barrow was the only woman ambassador. And as deputies, we were very pleased that she sought to liaise with us.
ROTH: Ambassador Wensley?
WENSLEY: Madeleine Albright played a role in this, as I understand. When I arrived, she organized a meeting. And her slogan was "there must be more of us in places that count." We do have a very effective, very friendly association. We meet and we have some -- a lot of laughs and enjoy ourselves, but we actually do very serious strategizing, mentoring and we have under Claudia Fritsche's direction, who is our dean if you like, the unofficial dean of the women's call here, we have made firm, formal representations to the Secretary-General, encouraging appointment of women special emissaries, special envoys.
I'm sure Claudia would like to talk a little bit about that.
ROTH: Claudia, go ahead.
FRITSCHE: We have started that a few years ago because it has been and become an even greater concern as the years go by that women are more prominently represented in the field of conflict resolution preventive diplomacy in particular, as special representatives of the Secretary-General.
In that capacity, we have seen not even a handful of women the last 10 years. And this is very regrettable. And we try to update lists with suitable candidates. And we really will continue to push this issue.
ROTH: When Albright was there though, '93, I mean, I think there were only 10 to nine female ambassadors. And seven, eight years later, it's the same total.
WENSLEY: Yes, but we're talking about specials reps...
ROTH: Right.
WENSLEY: ... and special emissaries.
ROTH: Right, which have increased. I mean, some...
WENSLEY: Well, not really. We've had three and there are none at the moment. And I remember we went and called on the SGA and we said, "There should be more women." And some of the people, not the SG, he's been very supportive, who said there should be more women. They have a constructive role to play. And they can bring a different perspective. And he was receptive.
And some of the people around him said, "Oh, but some of these places are dangerous." And we had prepared ourselves. We had done a study. We knew the average age of special emissaries and envoys. And we pointed out that they weren't young and they weren't Rambos and that women were perfectly capable of getting into difficult situations and helping to resolve them.
ROTH: We'll continue the discussion in a moment. One of the most renowned men of the 21st century seemed to notice a change when he came to the United Nations when it comes to the opposite sex.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I have a question. How many of you, and I want you to raise your hand if the answer is yes: How many of you would like to be an astronaut someday? OK.
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ROTH: The first woman to command a space shuttle mission, Eileen Collins, framing a dream on take our daughters to work day at the United Nations last year.
We have four of the 10 women ambassadors of the United Nations with us. Speaking of that ambassador's comments, Ambassador Wensley of Australia, tell us what happened when you were 12 years old and what you wanted to be?
WENSLEY: Oh, you've done some homework. I wanted to be a diplomat and I wrote to the Department of Foreign Affairs and I got a very polite answer saying, "Write back when you're a bit older." And I did. And I said, "What should I study?" And they said, "Study what you most want to study because what we want people who have quality education and who are committed." And I persisted. And I applied and went through a competitive process.
And in those days, they only took one woman a year in our service. And I joined in 1968 and have been on the go for 33 years since.
ROTH: And in the path through the diplomatic ranks, you have been posted in Mexico City, Paris, Hong Kong. What happened in Hong Kong, I think, at a certain point you staged a boycott of some clubs?
WENSLEY: In Hong Kong and indeed in New Zealand and in Mexico, it was made more difficult for me to pursue my professional work as deputy head of mission and as head of mission because I could not entertain in the major clubs that were the locus of power. And together with another woman ambassador from the United States, in fact, we suggested that our -- the members of our staff should neither receive nor offer hospitality in these clubs until they were open to women fully.
ROTH: Ambassador Fritsche, do the men at the UN feel threatened by the women ambassadors or the women diplomats? Can you describe the interaction?
FRITSCHE: I think you probably would have to ask the question to our male colleagues, but I don't think there is any reason for them to feel threatened. I do believe that once you have reached our level in diplomacy, there is nobody, men or women, who can and should afford to feel threatened by each other.
ROTH: But there's been talk, I mean, we've heard I think from some of the people at this table and perhaps Ambassador Durrant, you can tell us -- I think there were some men who either perhaps through -- attempted bad humor. I mean, expressed their very tentative or they don't know how to approach perhaps on some issues? And they feel that women might have an advantage?
DURRANT: I hadn't heard that, but I will say that last year, the Security Council was extremely responsive. And we were able to get through the council resolution on women peace and security, which was a groundbreaking resolution adopted unanimously by the council.
ROTH: Some of the women diplomats here, are acting like the male diplomats who are here, being very diplomatic, not revealing too much behind the scenes. But OK, Ambassador Fritsche, go ahead.
FRITSCHE: I think -- I want to mention maybe just one example where maybe our male colleagues at that time could have felt a little unequally treated. When Madeleine Albright was the ambassador of the United States and we had this extremely well functioning network, all of us had direct access to her. A small country like Liechtenstein have direct access to the U.S. ambassador, maybe some of my male colleagues having to go through the usual channels, was maybe something that they didn't appreciate that much.
WENSLEY: Richard, the thing is, I think all of us feel a little uneasy about the focus on how do you feel as women? How are treated as women? We represent our countries. We want to be perceived as strong, competent professionals here on merit. We clearly care about women's issues. We think we have an additional responsibility as women because we're in a minority, but equally, we want to work and be treated and to be asked about things like East Timor and conflict prevention and development and disarmament and so on.
ROTH: Right, but the awareness has gone up?
WENSLEY: It is improving.
ROTH: But the numbers haven't gone up?
WENSLEY: No, and that's why we all have to keep working on it. But there is this unease where we recognize we've gotten additional responsibility. And many see us as role models and as symbols. But we have paramount responsibilities for our national interests across a range of things. And I guess that's why we're not responding perhaps as vigorously as you would want for probably your question.
ROTH: Ambassador, do women make better ambassadors perhaps, without getting too stupid about it here? I mean, do you bring certain...
CLARKE: I wouldn't like to say that. But I would, and I'd also (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ready, we come as individuals with a purpose. We're here to represent our countries. It isn't a matter of what our gender is. We're individuals with responsibilities and with certain skills. And we do not dwell on our being female.
Obviously, it is nice to know that there are other female ambassadors and that we have the opportunity for this kind of network. But I have not personally felt any reason or seen any reason why men have been uncomfortable with us. I can understand Claudia's point if in the case of Madeleine Albright. But I think that we're here as people.
And I'm sure in your own job, you work with ladies and with gentlemen.
ROTH: I've got a lady in my ear right now, my producer telling us we've got about a minute left. Ambassador Durrant of Jamaica, very briefly, what's going to make the numbers change to increase the number of women ambassadors at the UN or women in more senior positions at the UN?
DURRANT: It's up to the governments, but it's also up to us to demonstrate competence and efficiency and professionalism and the role models for young diplomats, wanting to enter the service.
ROTH: All right.
DURRANT: This we assure will encourage more women. In my own service, more than 50 percent of foreign service is female.
WENSLEY: I think that what is needed is leadership. It sounds a cliche, but it's absolutely truthful. I feel my own country is a leader in this area. We've got more than 10 percent of our ambassadors overseas are women. We've got more and more people in middle management positions, but everyone's got to keep working on it. And we need leadership from both men and from women and from people who already in positions of influence, and that includes ourselves.
FRITSCHE: Forty percent of our foreign service is women. And that means, coming from a country that only introduced women's right to vote in 1984. So I think in all, our country's making great progress.
ROTH: All right, that's Ambassador Claudia Fritsche from Liechtenstein. We have a picture of you at your office with Javier Perez de Cuellar, the Secretary General of the UN. That tells you how long she's been there, longest serving female ambassador at the United Nations. Thank you for coming.
Ambassador Penny Wensley of Australia, good luck in your future diplomatic career.
WENSLEY: Thank you very much.
ROTH: Sorry to see you leaving the United Nations. Penny Wensley was practically a leader and the lead up to the big, massive UN AIDS conference held at UN headquarters.
June Clarke, Barbados, thank you very much for being here and representing your nation.
And over at the United Nations, Patricia Durrant, Jamaica's ambassador. And last year, she won something called the "O.J." I don't know if you boast about it, but it's the order of Jamaica award for career service. Thank you for being here.
One of your male colleagues laments the fact that there aren't more females in the ranks of the ambassadors. And Ethiopia's UN ambassador, Abdul Mejid Hussein, is willing to make a deal.
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ABDUL MEJID HUSSEIN, ETHIOPIA AMBASSADOR TO UN: Ethiopia is one of the founding members of the United Nations. And since that time, it's over 50, 56 years now, we never had a woman ambassador from Ethiopia. So should there be a situation where the government wishes to appoint a lady ambassador, I would definitely volunteer to vacate my post for that person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROTH: The women have left, but any woman in the audience who wants to e-mail the male host of this program, feel free to dash off some correspondence. Here's the computer address: DIPLOMATIC.LICENSE@turner.com. We reserve the right to use a selection of your submissions.
Reporters based in New York get invited to a lot of awards dinners about journalism. It's a good chance to get a free meal, but more important, to get a refresher course on why one entered the profession and hear the latest on the risks the news industry faces around the world. Here is your invite to this year's overseas Press Club award, the 62nd annual awards dinner.
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ANDY ROONEY, CBS NEWS: I think any time people in the news business get together and celebrate what they think is an important line of work, it's good.
SIGNE WILKINSON, "PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS": I'm honored to be among so many talented journalists who still have jobs.
DAN RATHER, CBS NEWS: Especially in this age of globalization, it is vitally important, let us remind ourselves, for people around the world to know what's going on in countries other than our own.
NORMAN SCHORR, OVERSEAS PRESS CLUB: As we all know, the focus is tonight's dinner is excellence. Yet we cannot avoid the reality that journalists in two-thirds of the world regularly face many forms of repression and attack. More than 50 journalists and media workers were killed last year in reprisal for their work. It is to remind us of their courage and their dedication that we light a candle to burn throughout tonight's program.
SHERRY JONES, WASHINGTON MEDIA ASSOCIATES: This evening is a joy to me. It's also a sad one. A year ago on this very night, I saw for what turned out to be the last time an amazing journalist, the Roger correspondent, Kurt Shork. He was a friend of mine and a mentor to many. And within a few months after this dinner, he was killed in an ambush in Sierra Leone. So I accept this award with great gratitude and great humility in the face of the dedication and ultimate sacrifice of people like journalists like Kurt Schork.
PETER ARNETT, FORMER CNN CORRESPONDENT: For all the reporters out there, tonight who aren't here, covering the trouble spots of the world, they're just as dangerous today as they always were. And this is some of the recognition that they deserve.
RATHER: I'm pleased to be able to inaugurate tonight on behalf of the OPC a new award. The award is the Artyom Borovic award. This award, ladies and gentlemen, is for Russian journalists and is intended to encourage the kind of daring, integrity-filled journalism that won Borovic and "60 Minutes" an OPC award in 1991. His courage and professionalism have not been forgotten.
DAVID REMNICK, "THE NEW YORKER": Mr. Putin is extremely smart. And one sign of his political intelligence is the way in which he went about destroying press freedom in Russia.
JONES: For the first time, I've heard the words "Putinist" and "Putinism," words that have resonance that chill the spine.
RATHER: The first recipient of this new award is Anna Politkovskaya of "Novaya Gazeta" for her coverage of Russia's disastrous war in Chechnya.
ANNA POLITKOVSKAYA, "NOVAYA GAZETA": I think even you don't really realize how important it is that this award is given to the person who covers this war and not any other journalist. This is extremely important for the entire Russian journalism. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: Increasingly, international stories do not get major play in the United States in the media. For their cover stories, news magazines are likely to choose lifestyles and national issues pieces over Putin's policies and Indonesia's political chaos. But there are some options for people who are truly interested in learning about the big story overseas.
That's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth in New York. Thanks for watching.
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