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America's New War

Aired September 25, 2001 - 22:00   ET


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. A wonderful thing happened in New York City today. At any other time it would have gone unnoticed in most of the country, but this isn't any other time. This is two weeks after the attack on the World Trade Center, and today New Yorkers voted. The hijackers didn't kill that.

And then there's this matter of Rudy, the man of the hour, and barred by law from seeking reelection. Rudy Giuliani still isn't saying if he wants to stay on, but hopes he could stay on seem to be fading. Who would have thought that before September 11th that part of a skyscraper might some day be a memorial? The remains of the World Trade Center South Tower were taken down this afternoon, something to preserve.

And pilots today formally asked Congress to let them carry guns. No one laughed.

Osama bin Laden's own homeland, Saudi Arabia, cut its ties with the country thought to be sheltering him, Afghanistan.

And one development we were expecting that couldn't come at a better time -- nothing to do with war or terrorism or hijackers -- Michael Jordan is back in the game.

All of that coming up. We are just starting to get some of the early results from the more than 5,000 precincts across New York City. We'll bring them to you as we get more throughout the broadcast, but we have some indications of how it's going to go, so we'll begin with our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider, who we'll be seeing a lot more of as we go along.

Bill, Good evening.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Good evening, Aaron. You know, New Yorkers did vote for mayor today. Well, what did they say?

More or less the same thing they were expected to say before the September 11th attack. The Democratic race will very likely be a runoff between public advocate Mark Green and Bronx borough president, Fernando Ferrer, who were the prime runners before September 11th. And among today's voters, in what the board of the elections calls a disappointing turnout, Green leads Ferrer in the runoff, set for two weeks from now. The incumbent Republican Mayor Rudy Giuliani discouraged voters from writing his name in today's primary ballot, and they didn't. No more than 2 percent of Democrats wrote Giuliani's name in. The Republican primary did produce a clear winner. As expected, billionaire businessman Michael Bloomberg won the GOP race. Fifteen percent of his fellow Republicans wrote Giuliani's name in.

So is Giuliani out of it? Well, not necessarily. The mayor says he's considering the possibility of running in November. Now, what would happen if his name were on the November ballot? Well, 41 percent of Democrat voters today said they would vote for Giuliani. Remember, only 2 percent actually wrote his name in. And 80 percent of Republicans said they would vote for Giuliani if his name were on the Republican ballot.

So yes, Giuliani could still be a contender, but not if he has to rely on write-in votes. He would have to get his name on the November ballot. And that can't be done unless the state legislature and the governor or the city council take extraordinary action -- Aaron.

BROWN: Bill, we'll talk more about that possibility and some other things that came out of the exit polling that are fascinating to us, as we go along tonight. So we will be seeing you in a little bit.

We might tell you as well, it's been a very slow vote count in New York tonight. We're not sure we'll have a final tally before we go off the air. But the exit poll data, we are pouring over, and as we said, we'll have more on that coming up.

Now, in Washington, where the president and his team were working this new war on several fronts, we go to our senior White House correspondent John King for more on that.

John, good evening again.

JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron. You know, more than a decade after the end of the Persian Gulf war, still a debate in Washington: did the former Bush administration, the first Bush administration make a mistake leaving Saddam Hussein in power in Iraq? This campaign is just beginning, but already across Washington and even within the administration, this question is being asked. No matter what happens to Osama bin Laden, can this President Bush claim victory if at the end the Taliban still rules Afghanistan?


KING (voice-over): More coalition building and a blunt appeal for a revolt against Afghanistan's ruling Taliban.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And the best way to do that, and one way to do that is to ask for the cooperation of citizens within Afghanistan who may be tired of having the Taliban in place, or tired of having Osama bin Laden, people from foreign soils, in their own land, willing to finance this repressive government. KING: The Taliban's supreme leader joined the war of words. In a statement to the American people, Mullah Mohammed Omar said -- quote -- "Your government is perpetrating all sorts of atrocities in Muslim countries." The statement went on to say that U.S. policy was to blame for -- quote -- "the sad events that took place recently."

The White House says toppling the Taliban is not an explicit goal of the operation.

BUSH: We are not into nation building. We are focused on justice.

KING: But in just the past few days, the administration has urged Russia to increase military sales to the Northern Alliance opposition, intensified its own contacts with the Northern Alliance, held talks in Rome with Afghanistan's 86-year-old exiled king and encouraged his efforts to organize opposition to the Taliban, and communicated through a third party with Abdul Haq, a former Afghan rebel leader who says he will return to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.

ROBERT MCFARLANE, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: It makes good sense for the United States to give it a try for these grassroots Afghan commanders to bring down the Taliban, form a government, kick out bin Laden, before the United States tries on its own.

KING: But the president also left no doubt he would have no problem targeting the Taliban.

BUSH: Because if you harbor a terrorist, if you aid a terrorist, if you hide terrorists, you're just as guilty as the terrorists.

KING: Mr. Bush stopped by FBI headquarters to thank some of the agents leading the investigation. And Congressional leaders who had breakfast with the president say Mr. Bush wants to wait a bit longer before deciding if the government needs to pass an emergency economic stimulus package.


KING: These pictures we're showing you tonight, a very rare scene. This is a president who likes to eat at home at the White House, but he went out to dinner in Washington tonight, all part of his effort to try to convince the American people it's safe outside, go back about your daily routines.

But at the same time, more evidence things are anything but normal. Mr. Bush scheduled to go next month to Asia. That trip was penciled in for as long as two weeks. The White House tonight announcing that trip being drastically scaled back, just two days. A summit meeting in Beijing, stops in Tokyo and Seoul being canceled. Aides say the president needs to be back in Washington to run this campaign against terrorism -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, for the last week there has been a steady parade of foreign ministers and prime ministers to the White House. Are there concrete signs that a coalition is in place?

KING: Certainly in the public statements and in the early pledges of military cooperation, the administration is more than happy. They say things are going as well as could be expected. The big test now, the president yesterday, as we reported, tried to crack down on the financial support. He urged banks around the world to do the same, targeting Mr. bin Laden and his supporters. That will take a week or so, for those banks to act. That will be the next big test.

And obviously, more and more, as the president reaches out to the moderate Arab nations. They are concerned the Taliban trying to foment anti-American sentiment in the Arab world the next week or so, as this campaign intensifies. Those are the countries to watch the most to see if the president can hold this coalition together -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. John King, our senior White House correspondent tonight. And as John reported, the president went to the FBI, in part to thank the agents and in part to call for new, tougher laws to fight the war on terrorism.

The Attorney General John Ashcroft was doing the same thing this time before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Mr. Ashcroft said the Justice Department has discovered that several people trying to fraudulently obtain licenses to drive tankers. The theory is that this might have been part of some sort of chemical weapons attack.


JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We cannot wake for terrorists to strike to begin investigations. The death tolls are too high, the consequences are too great. We must prevent first, prosecute second.


BROWN: Prevent first, prosecute second is far more complicated than a simple slogan suggests. The United States has had this dilemma many times before in its history, and has cracked down. And history has not been a kind judge of the decisions made. More on that from CNN's Garrick Utley.


GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If all the flags, the stars and bars across the land, stand for one transcendent belief, it is to defend the freedoms under attack, including the freedom from fear.

(on camera): Which brings Americans to that central question being debated across the country, and which will be decided in Washington: To preserve the freedom from what happened here September 11th, which individual rights are the nation prepared to trim, to compromise?

(voice-over): Those who have been detained, more than 350, are not the first. Back in 1798, when the young United States feared attack, Congress passed emergency laws allowing the detention and deportation of foreigners without evidence or trial. In the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln suspended that most basic ride of habeas corpus.

RANDOLPH MCLAUGHLIN, PACE LAW SCHOOL: That gives individuals who are being detained the power to come into the court and say, "I'm unlawfully detained. You shouldn't hold me any longer."

UTLEY: In World War I, socialists who tried to persuade Americans to peacefully oppose the draft were convicted under the espionage act. The case reached the Supreme Court, where Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes issued his famous opinion: that the defendants had no more right to oppose the draft in war time than a person had the right to shout, "fire" in a crowded theater.

MCLAUGHLIN: The courts had bent over backwards in those periods to give the executive branch and the legislative branch the latitude it needs to function, and to shut down the problem.

UTLEY: And so the Supreme Court also upheld the internment of 120,000 Americans of Japanese descent during World War II. Were they a security problem, or merely guilty by ethnic association?


ANNOUNCER: Calling the House un-American Activities Committee to order...


UTLEY: And then, in the early years of the Cold War, there was the guilt by association of those caught up in the McCarthy investigation of communist activities in the United States.

Throughout history, Americans have found that some inalienable rights have been more inalienable than others. Still, when the founding fathers drafted the Constitution and the Bill of Rights more than 200 years ago, they guaranteed freedoms that remain broader than in many other democracies.

In France today, citizens are required by law to carry national identity cards, which the police can inspect at any time. In Germany, citizens are required to register with local authorities when they move to a new address, and from age 16, they, too, must carry a government-issued identity card.

(on camera): Of course the United States is not Germany. It is not France. But at the same time, it has not been above or beyond re- balancing the scale between basic human rights and basic human security.

(voice-over): So now, the nation searches again for that balance, decides which rights will be buried in order to preserve other rights in this new war.

Garrick Utley, CNN, New York.


BROWN: One senator searching for that balance, Charles Schumer, Democrat from New York. He sits on the judiciary committee, amongst others. We also know now the senator has just taken his first commercial flight since the attack. We're delighted that Senator Schumer joins us this evening.

Good evening, Senator.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Glad to be here.

BROWN: Tell me truthfully, were you nervous when you got on that airplane?

SCHUMER: Yeah, I was nervous, no question. I had taken the train back and forth from New York to Washington for the previous two weeks. But I'll tell you, the security was a lot tighter than it had been. There were U.S. marshals and U.S. customs agents at the check-in point, the security point. There were dogs who sniffed the luggage. It was a heck of a lot better, and everyone was more careful. I won't be at all worried the second time I fly, and I urge all Americans to do it.

BROWN: You flew from here -- from New York to Washington?

SCHUMER: To Dulles, yes.

BROWN: To Dulles.

SCHUMER: The shuttle can't go to National, of course.

BROWN: There were -- I want to -- I'm very mindful here not to try and scare people, but we saw two reports today, one out of Atlanta and the other out of Philadelphia, where people successfully cleared security -- in one case, with a handgun, one case with box cutters, again.

I just wonder here, if the security in New York, all things considered, might be much tighter and much more different than the security around the country two weeks after the attack?

SCHUMER: That's possible. I can just tell you my own experience at LaGuardia, and it was really tight. I felt very comfortable being on the plane.

BROWN: Let's move to these new laws the attorney general has asked for. Anything specifically give you problems in this laundry list of laws that the administration is seeking?

SCHUMER: Yes, you know, I think the key word here is going to be balance. I think that was mentioned by Garrick Utley, and there is balance. You know, there are some who just say, hey, we're in an emergency situation, undo everything. They're wrong. But there are some who say we don't have to bend for technology or anything else. Let's just keep things exactly as they, and they're wrong, too. Let me give you an example of a couple of those. The idea of detaining immigrants indefinitely without any kind of court proceeding, that's wrong. Should we be able to detain them maybe for a few days -- immigrants don't have the same rights as American citizens -- until they're checked out, and then, if the authorities feel this is a potentially really dangerous person, go to court and get some kind of order for a longer -- significantly longer period of detention? Yes, and that's the way to balance that one. So, I think that one goes too far.

On the other hand, the administration has asked for this trap and trace, which makes a great deal of sense. In the old days -- and wiretap changes. In the old days we tapped the phone number, because the only time you changed that phone number would be you call up the phone company and they would tell the FBI and they could then put the tap on the new phone. These days, there are cell phones.

And unless you're able to tap the individual, it takes such a long time to switch the tap that the terrorists and others, drug dealers and others, know that they can elude detection by buying a new cell phone every three, four days. That's probably what these people did.

And some of the civil liberties union people say we shouldn't do that -- they're wrong. That's new technology. You keep the same standard, you still have to go to court, but you're tapping the person rather than the individual.

BROWN: Just a final question on this, sir. Are you -- in your heart, are you absolutely confident that 50 years from now we won't look back on the changes made in the law, in the way we look back on internment and some of the other things that Garrick mentioned in his report?

SCHUMER: Well, internment was clearly wrong. That was guilt by association. The analogy, of course, would be depriving Arab-American or Muslim-American citizens of their rights. That would be abhorrent.

Updating the law to -- keeping the same standards, but updating it so it meets with technology, we should be doing that. There's an imperative to do that. And there are rigid people on both sides of this argument, and I don't think we should give one a white hat and one a black hat. I think balance, being in the middle, is where we ought to be.

BROWN: Senator Schumer, thanks. Thanks for your time tonight. We appreciate -- on both subjects, it was interesting. Thank you, sir.

SCHUMER: Thank you. Appreciate it.

BROWN: Senator Chuck Schumer of New York.

Still to come from us, a live report from CNN's Christiane Amanpour in the Pakistan capital. Also, a rare look inside the Taliban and Taliban-controlled territory today. And then governors from around the nation join us tell us how their states are handling the ripple effect from the attack two weeks ago.

And in our next hour, one airline that's a standout in security, from one nation that's known terror for decades. What's Israel's El Al doing right?


BROWN: Pakistan remains the focus on the diplomatic front in this new war on terrorism. Today, a delegation from the European Union arrived in Pakistan's capital to offer the country its support for joining the international coalition against terrorism. The latest now from Pakistan, and CNN's Christiane Amanpour, who is in Islamabad.

Christiane, good morning, there.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. Well, that delegation has now left and is in Iran, and it's going on to Syria and Saudi Arabia and Egypt, essentially trying to persuade the United States allies and antagonists in the Moslem world to join this campaign.


AMANPOUR (voice-over): Pakistan is now fully on the front line in the new global coalition. President Musharraf receives almost daily visits aimed at shoring up his position here at home.

The latest, a high-level delegation from the European Union that's come to relaunch aid, trade and economic relations.

ABDUL SATTAR, PAKISTAN FOREIGN MINISTER: We consider it as an -- as a manifestation of the solidarity of the European Union with Pakistan at this difficult moment.

AMANPOUR: And solidarity is the buzz word. Indeed, this delegation is traveling to other Moslem countries to reassure them that this is not about targeting Islam.

LUIS MICHAEL, BELGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: These attacks have been attacks on all of the international community of every faith and culture. The heads of state and government, explicitly rejected any equation of groups of fanatical terrorists with the Arab and Muslim world.

AMANPOUR: But there were more demonstrations by hard line Islamic groups, determined to turn this into a clash of faiths -- denouncing America and their government's decision to stand with her. Other groups say they'll hold rallies in support of that decision on Wednesday.

With the crisis mounting, some refugees are heading towards Pakistan, but U.N. aid officials say there is a humanitarian disaster looming inside Afghanistan. About two million people face hunger. Women and children were especially at risk, even before the current crisis. CHULHO HYUN, UNICEF SPOKESMAN: One in every four children born in Afghanistan today will die before turning the age of 5. Every 15 minutes, a mother who gives birth in Afghanistan dies due to preventable causes.

AMANPOUR: The only thing the U.N. says it can do now is put emergency supplies on the border to be delivered the moment this crisis breaks.


AMANPOUR: Now, adding to the U.N.'s considerable worries is the fact that the local staff in Afghanistan, the only workers that remain there now for the aid community, are almost unable to work because the Taliban have basically threatened their security and their ability to operate by closing down all their communications with the outside world -- Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, go back to the European Union for a second. What are the chances that Iran and Syria will side with the United States in this fight?

AMANPOUR: Well, you've heard from both those countries, who have been variously accused by the United States in the past, of sponsoring terrorism. You've heard in the wake of this vast attack on the United States, them condemning terrorism. And I believe what the E.U. and certainly what the United States is trying to do, is get them to sort of coalesce around the United States in this fight. And presumably, we're hearing from officials, that from now on they must have nothing more to do with state-sponsored terrorism, and if they do, then they may have to pay a price for that.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. Christiane Amanpour in Islamabad, Pakistan, thank you.

One veteran of the Afghan Soviet war described Afghanistan this way: "It's like God took all the rocks in the world and dropped them there." The terrain is among the toughest in the world, and right now we know very little of what the Taliban are actually doing, how many people have been mobilized.

Earlier, we got an exclusive and fascinating glimpse of what is actually happening on the ground. Here's some of our talk on the phone with CNN journalist Kamal Hyder, reporting from Taliban- controlled areas.


KAMAL HYDER, CNN, AFGHANISTAN: What I can tell you right now is that in the East, most of the population which is in the rural areas of Afghanistan, are seen more and more with weapons, something that the Taliban would not allow in peacetime, because they de-weaponized Afghanistan. But there is a feeling there amongst Afghanistan ruling population that the country may be under threat of an attack, and people are gearing up for a long guerrilla war.

BROWN: What kinds of weapons are you seeing? Are you seeing small arms, or are you seeing larger weapons?

HYDER: Basically, these are small arms like AK-47 rifles. There are some small cannons on portable cannons, which are on mountain tops, which are normally carried away. This is very difficult terrain here in the east, an ideal country for guerrilla warfare. So at this moment, you don't see any movement of heavy weapons, because there is something which the official government forces use.

These are tribal, and there is always a risk that tribals, if the tribals throw the support behind the Taliban, then obviously, it becomes a new ball game. At this moment in time, the decision of whether the Afghan nation will go with the Taliban or not hangs in the balance, and that will be decided if and when Afghanistan is attacked.

BROWN: And how will that be decided? Is there some structure for that to be decided within these tribes or these groups, or will it just be apparent by what they do?

HYDER: The Taliban have been able to muster the elders of the counsels and the districts, including the religious college. They have called them in. They have put their input. They have told the government that Afghanistan is a tribal society. Tribes do things like the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tribes, most of these people, including tribes from the Pakistan side of the border, the Orogai tribe, these people are now siding with the Afghan government, because you must not forget, the tribes live across both borders, into Pakistan as well.

And most people here feel that the United States is attacking Afghanistan without substantial evidence against Osama bin Laden. So these people are now becoming more and more aggressive, and they are saying that if Afghanistan is attacked, then of course, Afghanistan ruling population will resist. Whether that becomes a reality or not will be very clear once Afghanistan is attacked.

BROWN: Have you heard people talk about Osama bin Laden in particular? Are they aware of what happened in New York and in Washington?

HYDER: They are very much aware of what happened in New York and Washington. Most Afghans I spoke to, most Afghans that talk on their own, will tell you that they do not condone acts of terrorism. You must remember that Afghans themselves, they have never been involved in terrorism. They say, we have never hijacked aircraft. They say we have never put bombs in foreign capitals, that we are a peace-loving country.

It must be remembered, that this is an introverted country. Afghans by nature are introverted. They do not carry acts of terrorism overseas. They also say that the people of Afghanistan need to see evidence brought forward by the United States. You cannot try someone or try to kill someone before holding him accountable, before bringing him before a judicial system. We feel that the evidence may not be adequate, and therefore, they feel that they cannot hand over this man.

BROWN: So they don't necessarily believe at this point that the government of Afghanistan is harboring terrorists or in any sense sponsoring terrorism?

HYDER: There is, I mean, that feeling may be emerging. Some people are beginning to question the wisdom of the government, but overall, the majority of Afghanistan is still very conservative. And they therefore believe that they stand by their government. Most of the people in Afghanistan are not particularly happy with foreign interference in Afghanistan, either Arabs or anybody else. This must be remembered, that Afghanistan is a tribal society which has always been introverted. So most people are not aware. Most people do not even know what Osama bin Laden looks like. Since photographs are banned in this country, people do not even know what he looks like. And if he were to walk amongst the people, the chances of anybody spotting him are very remote.


BROWN: That conversation earlier today. When we come back, the terrorist attack and the states. We'll talk with four of the nation's governors.


BROWN: The terrorists of September 11th killed thousands of people and set off a chain of events that every politician in America is struggle to deal with. There are layoffs, new security measures, a massive decline in tax dollars and an alarming drop in tourism, and that's just the start.

Tonight we're bringing together governors from four very different states with different problems, to talk about how they are handling it all and what they need. In Honolulu, governor Benjamin Cayetano of Hawaii. Governor Gary Locke of Washington joins us from Seattle tonight. Governor Frank Keating, who know terrorism firsthand is the governor of Oklahoma, joins us this evening from Oklahoma City. And in Indianapolis tonight, not the governor of Indiana, but the governor of Illinois, George Ryan.

Gentlemen, welcome all of you. Let me start in Hawaii, we'll go west to east, here. I suspect, governor, that the tourist industry has already seen all of the bad news it can handle.

GOV. BENJAMIN CAYETANO (D), HAWAII: Aaron, as you know, Hawaii, being isolated in middle of the Pacific, we are very, very dependent on air travel. The only way you can get here is either by air or boat. You can't drive or take a railroad here. And so, we were very, very concerned.

Now, so far our Japanese tourist, which is about 30 percent of our tourism market, is about 50 percent down. And West Coast tourist traffic is about 30 percent down.

We have had some layoffs. There is a great deal of concern in the tourism industry about what has happened, but we have already taken some measures to try and deal with the issues which confront us. And I think that the federal government's bailout of the airlines is a very big step in our view. BROWN: I want to talk more about that in a minute. Governor Locke, we used to say in Seattle when Boeing catches cold, the whole state sneezes. Boeing's got a cold.

GOV. GARY LOCKE (D), WASHINGTON: Boeing definitely has a cold and, of course, when the airlines are suffering, they're not able to make good on their purchases of airplanes. They want to delay their delivery of airplanes or not even buy airplanes, and that means we're looking at perhaps 30,000 Boeing jobs being laid off in just the next year.

And this comes at on top of a downturn in the economy with the bust of the dot-com companies. And also, our tourism is down by some 30 percent as well. So, this is going to be a tough time for our state. We really depend on a lot of consumer spending to pay for our schools, our colleges, universities, and police and fire protection.

BROWN: Because there is no, excuse me, income tax in Washington, right?

LOCKE: We have no income tax in the state of Washington. We really depend on people having good incomes and shopping in the malls and going to the restaurants, as well as the spending by tourism. And so, all of that is going to be significantly effected.

BROWN: Governor Keating, I'm curious how Oklahoma is feeling all of this. My guess is there's some military component to what you are seeing. Is there more than that?

GOV. FRANK KEATING (R), OKLAHOMA: Well, Aaron, we're open for business. Tonight Oklahoma passed Right to Work, the first state since 1958 to do so, and I'm going to try to catch up with Gary and abolish our income tax this fall.

We understand that this is going to be a long process. We are all Americans, but we have despaired or given up. We are very confident that in the administration, Dick Cheney and Colin Powell, who helped lead us through the Persian Gulf War; Don Rumsfeld, who I think is an outstanding secretary of defense, Condi Rice, the president, obviously. These are serious minded people.

We have first rate individuals helping us through this and we, I think I can speak for the other governors, intend to work with Tom Ridge to make our states prepared in the event that we have a similar incident at home.

But people are obviously very uncertain. They want to see some kind of stability. But we're Americans. We know that we had our version of Pearl Harbor on September 11th and it's going to be awhile before we pick ourselves up.

BROWN: And Governor Ryan, I would assume, to one degree or another, you're getting all of these problems. You're getting airline problems, you're getting tourist problems, you're getting tax problems. GOV. GEORGE RYAN (R), ILLINOIS: Well, that's true. You're absolutely right. We've had, as a result of the grounding of the airlines, a cut back in our convention business. The good news is that the conventions didn't cancel, they merely changed their dates. And now that the airlines are back flying again, our convention business has picked up. It's a $6 billion business in Illinois.

Tourism, of course, is a $25 billion business, and that's started to pick up. But the retail sales in the city of Chicago and around the state have also started to gain a little momentum, so we're somewhat encouraged, but we are concerned about the effects of layoffs through the airlines and some other industries. And we're going to have to make some adjustments with our state budget.

BROWN: Governor Ryan, are your economists telling you that the state is headed for a recession?

RYAN: Well, What they're saying is -- the first prediction was last week, I met with the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board from Chicago and he said that he thought maybe there was going to be originally some slow increases in the economy in the fourth quarter. They're now saying that that probably won't happen in the fourth quarter, but early next year we'll see some increases and some growth.

BROWN: And Governor Locke, I'm curious what the state of Washington's economists are telling you. It can be a fragile economy in Washington state.

LOCKE: Well, we've always lagged the rest of the country in terms of any type of economic downturn, but when you have the confluence of both the high-tech industries laying off people, the downturn there, along with the Boeing and tourism related industries, we are very concerned.

But, you know, we're a very resilient people and we're much more diversified than over before, so we're going to really work to help Boeing workers land on their feet. I very much support the assistance to the airlines. As soon as the airlines are healthy, as soon as people feel comfortable flying, taking to the airplanes again, then I think Boeing orders will pick up again.

So, we're all in this together, as Governor Keating said. We're all Americans and we're all united behind our national leaders. We're going to get through this.

BROWN: Gentlemen, I need to take a break. When we come back, I'd like to talk more about what the federal government can do to help each of your states, but let me take a break and we'll be right back.

We'll continue our conversation in just a moment.


BROWN: Continuing now our conversation with the governors of Hawaii, Washington state, Illinois and Oklahoma. Governor Cayetano, is there anything specifically you would like the federal government to do for the state of Hawaii it is not now doing?

CAYETANO: Well, I think what's really important to us is that the federal government act quickly to stabilize the airline industry and develop the security measures that we expect them to develop. We would like, of course, to have input as they develop these measures. For Hawaii, keeping the flow of airplanes coming to and from Hawaii is critical. It's our lifeline and without it, we will really suffer.

BROWN: Governor Locke, same question; what would you like the federal government to do to help Boeing, I guess would be the first thing?

LOCKE: Well, first of all, we are in discussions with Department of Labor officials and the various cabinet agencies to really make sure that there is adequate job training and retraining for Boeing workers who are going to be impacted. Just in the next year alone, we're looking at perhaps some 30,000 unemployed who will be laid off because of the downturn in the airline industry.

But actually, our problems go beyond Boeing workers. We really need help for a lot of workers in a whole host of industries that will be effected by these terrorist activities that have really softened and weakened our nation's economy.

I think that's what all the states are looking for. We need to help all of our workers. And in our state of Washington, we also have thousands of job openings in information technology and, whether it's at banks or insurance companies and so forth. We need help in providing some minimal level of training to get people moving from one sector into these good-paying jobs.

BROWN: Governor Locke, did I read correctly that you would like the, as a requirement of the airlines to get this bailout money, that they have to buy new jets from Boeing?

LOCKE: Well, I think that we may not be to legally require them, but I would hope that the administration would talk with the airline officials and get some sort of commitment form the, a moral commitment. Because here we are, offering billions of U.S. money, taxpayer money, to help the airlines. And when they become healthy, and they must become healthy, it seems to me contradictory for them to turn around and buy airplanes from a foreign country while other Americans are out of work. Not just Boeing, but just thousands of other companies, aircraft manufacturing companies, that make parts that go into Boeing airplanes.

BROWN: And Governor Ryan, Boeing is now in your state...

RYAN: Right.

BROWN: They've relocated in Chicago. Is there anything you'd like the federal government to do for the state of Illinois that it's not current doing or isn't being talked about? RYAN: Well, the big thing for us, I guess, maybe like Hawaii and everybody else, is to keep the airplanes flying. Re-instill the confidence in the American people that it's safe to fly. That's what brings people to our state. That's what creates the dollars that we need for the conventions and tourism.

Boeing is a situation that they have no manufacturing plant in Illinois, but across the river in Missouri they do. There could be some ripple effect from the Boeing -- from the suppliers in Illinois. But in the long run, they may expand their manufacturing in St. Louis, and that would help us in Illinois.

So, those are some of the things that I think the federal government can do, is to keep the airlines flying and make sure that they have plenty of money to do that.

BROWN: And Governor Keating, let me change the question a little bit with you, if I may, sir, because of this group you are probably closest to the administration of anyone here. Do you think there is a danger that people will ask too much, expect too much, particularly when they start talking about dollars and billions of dollars from the federal government out of this?

KEATING: No. I think we're united as a people, Democrats and Republicans alike. We know that this needs to be responded to, and we will. But let me tell you, Aaron, we are not seriously prepared, the states are not, to respond to a terrorist incident. We know how to respond to bullet wounds. Our doctors and nurses know how to do that. We know how to respond to earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes, but what do you if there's a small pox attack or an anthrax attack? What do you do if a plane hits a building?

I knew, in Oklahoma City, that when you blew it up you went ruining into the build and try to save people. If someone hit it and spilled 22,000 gallons of jet fuel, you don't run in to that building. We need to have all those things thoroughly vetted and discussed. We need to have an action plan for every conceivable potential hit on us. That's something that under Tom Ridge I know we will do, but as a country we are woefully unprepared.

BROWN: I saw you all nodding. I will leave it at that, that you all agree on that point. Thank you very much for joining us. It's nice to talk to you all again. Thank you. The governors of Hawaii, Illinois, Washington state and Oklahoma with us tonight.

Coming up, the man the French call Mayor Hero. New York is fine Rudy the rock, the hottest name not on today's primary ballot, as this special report continues.


BROWN: We told you at top of the hour, New Yorkers voted today, the first stage in a primary election to pick a new mayor. This was an election that was scheduled for September 11th and canceled. So much has happened since -- it wasn't canceled, it was postponed until today. The vote has been sort of slow to come in. So, let me begin by going to our senior political analyst Bill Schneider, who has the latest numbers. Bill, are you there?


BROWN: What you can tell me?

SCHNEIDER: What I can tell you is that the democratic vote looks very likely to be a runoff between the two candidates that were expected to be the top contenders: public advocate Mark Green, the top elected Democrat in New York, and Bronx Borough president Fernando Ferrer; both were the front-runners before September 11th.

And, on the Republican side, there was a likely winner, billionaire businessman Michael Bloomberg appears to have run the G.O.P. race and only about 2 percent of Democrats took the trouble to write in the name of Rudy Giuliani. He specifically said he didn't think it made any sense to write his name in, in either primary. Something close to 15 percent, 15 percent of Republicans, seem to have written in the name of their fellow Republican, Mayor Giuliani.

BROWN: I want to come back to a Giuliani question in a second, Bill, but let me ask you one more. As you look through the exit polls, two weeks after the attack, was terrorism the thing that concerned New York voters the most?

SCHNEIDER: Not really, and that was the biggest surprise that I found. When we asked Democrats, who are most of the voters in New York, what was the top issue in their minds as they cast their vote for mayor, the number one issue was education. 33 percent. Followed by the economy, now that of course is related to the terrorist attacks, because among other things, it had a devastating impact on not just the financial industry of New York, but tourism and entertainment. Terrorism came in a rather poor third at 13 percent.

In a way, of course, that's not really the mayor's responsibility. It's more the president. So, it didn't seem to be an issue in the mayoral race.

BROWN: All right, let me turn to Jeff. I don't know that I have a question exactly. Why don't you just tell me what you think of what played out today. How's that?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: I think what played out today is almost irrelevant until we find out what Rudy Giuliani is going to do. In other words, if he says OK, I have decided term limits are term limits, I'll step aside, then this plays out, you know, in a kind of conventional and not very interesting mayor's race.

The betting is that Mark Green would top Fernando Ferrer in a runoff and would win in a city with five to one Democratic registration, even though Mike Bloomberg has more money than God.

BROWN: Or, someone. GREENFIELD: Or someone. Now, if Rudy Giuliani were to say in 24 or 48 hours, you know, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to the city, and if the state legislature gives me a way to legally do it, I would like to be the mayor again.

BROWN: Now, I read in the post today, that Mr. Bruno the assembly -- senate majority leader...

GREENFIELD: He's the Republican senate majority leader.

BROWN: ... said, that's not going to happen. Now, there is an important voice to be heard.

GREENFIELD: If that's what he means, if either he or this democratic speaker of the assembly...

BROWN: Mr. Silver.

GREENFIELD: Mr. Silver, say I will not let this happen, then that makes it almost impossible. It would require a firestorm from New York voters to say otherwise.

But, you know, that's why I say that while these numbers are interesting, you've got to wait to see (a) what Giuliani says he want to do and (b) whether that produces enough of a genuine movement in New York to force the hand of the politicians.

BROWN: All right, back to Bill. Looking at the exit polls here again, what can we see say about a Giuliani candidacy if one were to happen?

SCHNEIDER: Well, that's exactly what was asked in the exit poll. The question was: if Rudy Giuliani were able to run in November, were able to run in November, a condition contrary to fact right now, would you vote for Giuliani or for the candidate you just voted for?

41 percent of Democrats, that's a very high number, that's not his party, he's a Republican. 41 percent of the Democrats said yes, they would vote for Giuliani, and 80 percent of Republicans, he is, of course, a Republican.

Let me point out that when Giuliani first got elected in 1993, he got support from just 33 percent of Democrats. So, that indicates that, yes, he would be a formidable contender if he were able to run in November.

BROWN: Jeff, go ahead and slap me down on this, but am I the only one who is thinking, look, this is in some ways the peak moment of the mayor's popularity, right about now, and that maybe there isn't, as we go out a couple of months, really the interest there seems to be right now?

GREENFIELD: Well, look -- history does say that when crises ebb, the great figure is often slapped around by the voters. Winston Churchill was thrown out of office about six or eight weeks after VE day. The Solidarity party in Poland has now ceased to exist. You know, they were the heroes back in the early days.

I just -- I just think it depends on whether by November if, if Giuliani says he wants it, if the state legislature somehow says go ahead, then the question is, by November 6th, will people decide we're still in a crisis? Or, you know, there was a lot about that guy I didn't like before all this.

BROWN: We will talk to you more later. Stay around.

Bill, thank you very much for joining us as we take a look a New York politics. We'll continue in just a moment.


BROWN: There was another big event in New York City tonight besides the election, a homecoming in the Bronx. The New York Yankees, the world champs, played their first home game since the disaster. A packed house. Singer Michael Bolton singing "Lean On Me" before the first pitch.

ANNOUNCER: In many ways, Jordan's climatic moment...

BROWN: In Washington, some big but not surprising news, Michael Jordan, the best basketball player on the planet, or at least he was, is back. He didn't appear before cameras today. He simply said in a statement, "I'm returning as a player to the game I love. He will donate his salary, a bit more than a million dollars, to the victims of the tragedies and give us his minority ownership of Washington Wizards, who will now automatically become one of the hottest tickets in professional sports. Michael Jordan is back, and that ends an hour. It would have begun one two weeks ago.

CNN's continuing coverage continues right after this.



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