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CNN THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN
Should Saddam Hussein be the Next Target?
Aired November 27, 2001 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: The search for bin Laden goes on, but is Saddam Hussein next? Should he be? President Bush has left us wondering. The man I'm about to talk to is not wondering. He made bombs for the Iraqi president.
Joining me here in Washington, Khidir Hamza, the author of "Saddam's Bombmaker." Khidir, thank you for joining me tonight.
KHIDIR HAMZA, AUTHOR, "SADDAM'S BOMBMAKER": Thank you.
VAN SUSTEREN: OK, Khidir, what kind of bombs does Saddam Hussein have?
HAMZA: He has already the full range of the chemical weapons. He has most of the biological agents he needs. And he is on his way to making nuclear weapons.
VAN SUSTEREN: And you have no doubt about this?
HAMZA: I have no doubt.
VAN SUSTEREN: Did you make these bombs for him?
HAMZA: I was on the nuclear side. We did make one bomb mock-up without a core for him. We didn't have enough material for the core at the time on the onset of the Gulf War. Then we had to scrap it because of U.S. bombing started.
VAN SUSTEREN: Now you left Iraq in 1994, right?
HAMZA: Yes.
VAN SUSTEREN: Do you know if he has, since 1994, any information from any of your former colleagues that he now does have a nuclear bomb?
HAMZA: He doesn't have the bomb yet, but he has a fully functional nuclear weapon program right now.
VAN SUSTEREN: Where did he get the equipment for this program?
HAMZA: Actually, most of it is done locally. Some of it imported, smuggled in, and some left over, not delivered to the inspectors. VAN SUSTEREN: When you say smuggled, who is it smuggled from? What countries and was any of it sold knowingly by any country?
HAMZA: After the Gulf War, I doubt that anybody knowingly sold it. But before the Gulf War, yes. When we used to go to Europe, even in the U.S., people usually accommodate us. There are very little doubts expressed.
VAN SUSTEREN: And who are these -- which countries are the ones that did this?
HAMZA: Germany mostly. We bought easily from Germany without any question. Most of the European, like Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, England a lot, and some in the U.S.
VAN SUSTEREN: Now Khidir, you knew Saddam Hussein, right?
HAMZA: Yes.
VAN SUSTEREN: In all your time that you spent with him, did he ever indicate to you a willingness to use these weapons?
HAMZA: Actually, he did, just before the Gulf War. That's why we dragged our feet in making him one nuclear weapon. We have the material in the form of a French reactor fuel. And we had enough. We had 31 kilograms. And it was enough to make 18 kilograms out of them to make one nuclear weapon, but we didn't.
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, when you say you had a willingness to use it, was it offensively or defensively?
HAMZA: I think if he is cornered, he'll use it. If he is cornered and if his life is at stake, he'll use it.
VAN SUSTEREN: What about anthrax?
HAMZA: Anthrax, he would use offensively also, not just defensively. He would use it to disrupt. He would use it redirect attention somewhere else. He would use it against his perceived enemies, including especially the U.S.
VAN SUSTEREN: Now do you have any sort of any thought in your mind whether or not he has any remote involvement in what happened in this country on September 11?
HAMZA: I think he has.
VAN SUSTEREN: What makes you say that?
HAMZA: For some of the defectors who left said they saw training camps with Islamic extremists in them. The Mohamed Atta trip from German to see (INAUDIBLE) in Prague. And after that, go back immediately, which shows that the trip was meant to coordinate.
VAN SUSTEREN: And that's with an Iraqi intelligence official?
HAMZA: That's the Iraqi chief of station, actually in Prague.
VAN SUSTEREN: What was Saddam Hussein like?
HAMZA: In private, he's terrible. He is heavy. He comes as a bully. He's threatening. And he want to show is power, openly. He is not even nice about it. In public, he's the father figure, smiling, gracious, but it's really not his reality.
VAN SUSTEREN: What's the worst thing you saw him do privately?
HAMZA: Privately? Personally, I did not, but some of my friends did. One of the officers objected to an attack on the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq War. And during the meeting, he brought out his gun and shot him in the face.
VAN SUSTEREN: Why isn't anyone ever within Iraq or I guess they have, they've made attempts on his life?
HAMZA: Yes.
VAN SUSTEREN: Why haven't they been successful?
HAMZA: He has several intelligence networks. And he is, if there is a doubt, he'll kill. He would never take any risk. So usually every six months, there is a purge. And the list in the purge, some people who might even thought a little or expressed an opinion or were disgruntled about something, he'll kill them just to be on the safe side.
VAN SUSTEREN: In your book, which I've read, there's a story about a radio personality person. Tell us what happened to her and when that was.
HAMZA: Well, all she did, actually, she didn't like Saddam.
VAN SUSTEREN: Who was she, first of all?
HAMZA: Analu Moderis (ph). We grew up listening to her voice. She has a beautiful voice. And she was number one announcer in Iraq, radio announcer. And one day -- she didn't like Saddam's wife. She kept calling her to say this and say that. She was unused to it. And the old...
VAN SUSTEREN: Saying that on the radio?
HAMZA: On the radio. Just -- she was controlling the news, Saddam's wife indirectly through this woman. And so one day, she just said something bad about her in front of her friends, She said she doesn't look like a First Lady. She's unfit to be a First Lady of Iraq. And that was enough to get her killed.
VAN SUSTEREN: And how was that carried out?
HAMZA: Oh, terrible. They cut her tongue. They hanged her and cut her tongue. VAN SUSTEREN: What do you think Saddam Hussein is thinking these days, as he sees the American bombing mission in Afghanistan and at least some suggestion that Iraq could be next?
HAMZA: He is moving, the news we've got, he is moving his men, troops into Tikerit (ph), his birth town north of Iraq, about something like -- less than 100 miles. And there he's safe. It's all on his side, all Tikerit (ph) lands, all parts of the government.
And he is regrouping. He's appointing officers as governors of the various provinces in Iraq. So he is taking Iraq into a military camp.
VAN SUSTEREN: In your opinion, is it important for the United States to go into Iraq and take out Saddam Hussein?
HAMZA: Actually, it's terrible if it didn't because Saddam will be really a major threat to the U.S. interests in the region, if they don't.
VAN SUSTEREN: In what way?
HAMZA: Because by 2005, according to various intelligence agencies, including the German intelligence, he should have at least two or three nuclear weapons. And he already has...
VAN SUSTEREN: With a delivery method though?
HAMZA: Yes. And he already has the full range of chemical weapons, most of the biological weapon agents. So he's weaponizing fiercely. All Iraq's resources are into weaponizing now. So if he is allowed to continue and be fully armed, he'll be a serious danger to his neighbor and the U.S.
VAN SUSTEREN: Khidir Hamza, thank you very much for joining me this evening.
HAMZA: Thank you.
VAN SUSTEREN: Next on THE POINT, the Attorney General says he has no apologies, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: While bombs continue to fall in Afghanistan, part of the focus on the war on terror has moved back onto U.S. soil. Authorities are making it clear the manhunt at home is far from over.
CNN national correspondent Eileen O'Connor has more from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the Attorney General, no apologies to critics who charge people are being held illegally and in secret. JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The Department of Justice is waging a deliberate campaign of arrest and detention to protect American lives.
O'CONNOR: Still, he did give out some numbers. 104 people have been charged with a federal offense stemming from the investigation into the September 11 attacks. Of those, 55 are in custody. Some have appeared in court. A few released on bond. Others are still being sought. 548 more are in the custody of the Immigration and Naturalization Service for possible visa violations.
ASHCROFT: We believe we have al Qaeda membership in custody.
O'CONNOR: In addition, a nationwide effort is underway to talk about September 11 to some 5,000 mostly young, Middle Eastern men in the U.S. on temporary visas. The Justice Department says some of the areas to be covered are their possible involvement in armed conflicts, knowledge of terrorism, and familiarity with weapons.
In Michigan, letters of invitation were sent out. Arab American groups say it's nothing short of racial profiling and harassment.
IMAD HAMAD, AMERICAN ARAB ANTI-DISCRIMINATION CMTE.: I don't think that guilt by association bring any justice to any, or bring us safety, the way we are trying to ensure.
O'CONNOR: The Attorney General says these measures and a refusal to release more information are steps designed to protect law-abiding people.
ASHCROFT: And the question has to be asked. Are people going to accept their responsibility to help us prevent additional terrorist attacks or not?
O'CONNOR: But some legal scholars say the question is not that simple.
DAVID COLE, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Here you've got the government locking up hundreds and hundreds of people and no opportunity for the public to assess, will the government, as the Justice Department says, doing the job right? Or as many are concerned, overstepping its legal authority?
O'CONNOR (on camera): The Attorney General says there will be public scrutiny, via congressional hearings.
Eileen O'Connor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAN SUSTEREN: No bail for the Algerian pilot accused of training some of the September 11 hijackers. Lofti Raissi was arrested September 21 in London on a request from the FBI. Today, just hours after the U.S. asked for is return, he was also indicted on a host of charges that he conspired to help another Algerian submit a false asylum application to the U.S. embassy in London. But as CNN's Jim Boulden explains, U.S. prosecutors may be standing on shaky ground.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BOULDEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It would have been the first chance for the United States to detail allegations that Lotfi Raissi helped the September 11 hijackers. Instead, the U.S. formally requested his extradition for failing to disclose information on a Federal Aviation form about a prior misdemeanor conviction and knee surgery.
Raissi appeared before a judge at this high security prison in South London, where he has been held since he was arrested at his house near London's Heathrow Airport on September 21. He was indicted last month in Arizona, accused of making the false statements.
But all along, the U.S. has said he knew and may have helped train Hani Hanjour, the hijacker pilot of the plane which hit the Pentagon. The two men attended Sawyer Aviation School in Arizona. Raissi's lawyer says the U.S. has no proof of any connection.
RICHARD EGAN, DEFENSE LAWYER: His treatment at the hands of the United States government is nothing short of outrageous. He's been held in custody for two months on a wholly false basis.
BOULDEN: In a previous court appearance, the British prosecutor said there was a video of Raissi with Hanjour. The defense team says British police now admit the man on the tape with Raissi is not the alleged hijacker. All the more reason for his release on bail, say members of Raissi's family, who were with him in court.
But prosecutors hinted 11 more charges against Raissi may be forthcoming. And said the prosecutor Raissi has a connection with another man now being held by the U.S. in Arizona, who in turn, has connections with this man, Abu Doha, whom the U.S. wants extradited from Britain for his alleged role behind the millennium plot to bomb Los Angeles Airport.
Doha happened to appear in the same courtroom just before Raissi on a procedural matter. Raissi will appear again in mid-December, after the British government studies the U.S. extradition charges. Charges so far, not at all connected to September 11.
Jim Boulden, CNN, London.
VAN SUSTEREN: Next, is being unpatriotic in wartime a crime? And could it cost you your job? THE POINT is coming right back, after this quick break and tonight's "MONEYLINE" update.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: He says he's had four death threats and was suspended from his job for speaking his mind. Get ready for tonight's "Flashpoint."
War of words. Joining us from Los Angeles, Jonnie Hargis, a U.C.L.A. library assistant who has asked us to protect his identity. And Albert Carnesale, the university chancellor.
Jonnie, first to you. You sent an e-mail that's at the bottom of this problem. And let me read the e-mail to you.
And it says, "American taxpayers fund and arm an apartheid state called Israel, which is responsible for untold thousands upon thousands deaths of Muslim Palestinian children and civilians. So who are the terrorists any way." Why did you send that e-mail and to whom did you send it?
JONNIE HARGIS, U.C.L.A. LIBRARY ASST.: Well, I sent that e-mail -- first, it must be acknowledged I sent that e-mail in a response to an e-mail I received, along with perhaps two dozen other individuals at U.C.L.A. This unsolicited e-mail we received was a -- what I considered a jingoistic, chauvinistic and over-the-top e-mail that contained many factual errors and was something that I felt was actually a call for debate.
I received this e-mail. It looked like an opinion was being expressed. I felt it necessary to express an opinion that you just read, even though you only read very little of the actual opinion. But the e-mail I received, I felt was a call for debate. And I responded.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, from whom did you receive this e-mail?
HARGIN: I received the e-mail from another individual in the library where I work. And she, at the same time, copied me in on it, all the other people in the library, a number of other people who are somehow associated with the university. And then when I sent my response, apparently there was some displeasure at my singling out the apartheid conditions of Israel.
VAN SUSTEREN: And so, what happened to you?
HARGIS: This all occurred on September 12. I was suspended from my job for one week on September the 12 and told to leave the premises. And the suspension notice was basically pretty cryptic. I had forwarded earlier to your staff. I could give it to you, if you would like to hear it.
VAN SUSTEREN: Well, let me ask the chancellor, the view of the university.
Chancellor, what's the university's position on this?
ALBERT CARNESALE, UCLA CHANCELLOR: Well, the university's position on this is that Mr. Hargis has every right to express his views, no matter how frightened it may cause other people to be.
Remember, this was the day after September 11. And his supervisor, under those conditions, simply made a mistake. And contrary to university policy about free speech and even about use of our e-mail system, suspended him.
As soon as I learned about it, which was shortly after his suspension, he fails to mention we corrected the action, apologized on behalf of the university, restored his benefits and pay, and removed the suspension notice from his personnel file. So a mistake was indeed made by his supervisor and was corrected as soon as higher UCLA officials found out about it.
VAN SUSTEREN: Jonnie, is that enough? That seems to be -- I mean, the chance...
HARGIS: No, on the surface, that would sound very adequate to an average person. However, let me tell you about some of specifics of this and that are chilling.
First of all, in a response to my suspension, once the media got hold of it, in fact one hour after I was suspended, they issued to the library staff, an e-mail policy that was created after my suspension. And then said I violated that e-mail policy. My union and my...
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, let me stop right there. But Jonnie, I think, and I'll let the chancellor get in. But I think the chancellor has said the university didn't handle it right and said that there wrong. Chancellor, am I right?
CARNESALE: Yes, Mr. Hargis' supervisor did not handle it right. It was also correct, as he says, that a policy was issued telling people to stop sending inflammatory e-mails of all kinds. And too was in opposition to university policy and was rescinded. People do have the right to express their views and even to do so using the university e-mail system.
VAN SUSTEREN: Jonnie?
HARGIS: Yes. Well, that e-mail policy, if you'll read the text of that e-mail policy that was sent out, there's a canard here in the sense that it says we want to remind all staff about this e-mail policy. This was in existence at the time that I sent this e-mail. It's a fraud lie. It's a lie. We've asked...
VAN SUSTEREN: So you're saying they're lying, that basically the university tried to cover its tracks?
HARGIS: You're absolutely right.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, chancellor, did the university try to cover its tracks? If so, are you sorry? All right, go ahead.
CARNESDALE: Absolutely not. What Mr. Hargis refers to is an e- mail, again, sent out within the library, telling people that they could not send out e-mails that expressed political views, or were inflammatory.
That's contrary to university policy. It happened that it essentially the same time, it's contrary to the university's e-mail policy, which has been in effect for a long time. And indeed, we sent out a notice thereafter, saying the policy to which Mr. Hargis refers, that was sent out by a lower level official, is not university policy, and made clear what has been university policy for a long time, which is that people can express their views and even on the university e-mail system.
HARGIS: Well, once again, however, And if you'll check the record and the media, you will find the university did, in fact, cite this e-mail policy in defense of my suspension. There's some other points that I want to bring up too, which are also very interesting. There's been workplace retaliation in the sense that my job and my work given to me has been changed. My hours on what's called the reference desk have been cut at least by a half. Some weeks ever more.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, let me ask, Chancellor before we run out time. Chancellor, has, you know, have his hours been changed? Is his work conditions been changed?
CARNESDALE: Well, needless to say, Mr. Hargis is hardly the most credible witness on this matter. There's certainly a lot of things going in our library and elsewhere. Everybody knows there have cuts in public university funds, but there has been no retaliation against Mr. Hargis. And I will fight to my death his right to express his views as much as I may find them abhorrent.
VAN SUSTEREN: Let me ask both of you a question. Are the two of you willing to sort of sit down. I mean, it seems like a problem that could be pretty easily resolved. Or it could blow up into a huge lawsuit and a lot of problems.
Are you two willing to sit down together and sort of work this out?
CARNESDALE: This has been worked out.
UNKNOWN MALE: We have agreements in effect right now with the Coalition of University Employees, my union, has a grievance proceeding right now. In which there are certain remedies there requesting...
VAN SUSTEREN: All right. I guess the answer then, unfortunately, is no, I'm not to resolve. At least to -- but we've run out of time. Mike, thanks.
CARNESDALE: Well, we have a grievance procedure that Mr. Hargis is using.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, good. Well, I hope it resolves quickly.
My thanks tonight to Jonnie Hargis and Chancellor Albert Carnesdale for joining me.
Let me know what you think about Jonnie Hargis' e-mail message and U.C.L.A's reaction to it. Send an e-mail to askgreta@cnn.com. That's one word, askgreta. Next, "LARRY KING LIVE."
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