CNN LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL
Special Report: America Strikes Back
Aired December 9, 2001 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Judy Woodruff in Washington. Welcome to a SPECIAL REPORT: AMERICA STRIKES BACK. We begin with a check of the hour's latest developments.
Among the latest developments we're following, a new videotape of Osama bin Laden has emerged. It has not been released. What you are seeing now this is file footage. But in the new tape, bin Laden allegedly discusses the September eleventh attacks in detail.
U.S. military officials say captured American Taliban fighter John Walker is giving them useful information. Walker is the custody of U.S. Marines in southern Afghanistan while U.S. officials decide what to do with him.
and there was no let up today in the fierce ground and air assault on the White Mountains near Jalalabad. Afghan tribal commanders say as many as 1,000 al Qaeda fighters may be defending the caves and tunnels there.
More now on the latest bin Laden videotape to emerge, in it, he reportedly describes the damage to the World Trade Center as worse than he had expected. One senior administration official says, quote, "it confirms everything we've known about him already." CNN White House correspondent Kelly Wallace has more.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice-over): President Bush, returning from Camp David, and facing a decision: whether to release to the public a new videotape U.S. officials have obtained of Osama bin Laden, a tape the vice president says leaves no doubt bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's pretty clear, as it's described to me, that he does, in fact, display significant knowledge of what happened and there's no doubt about his responsibility for the attack on September 11.
WALLACE: The new tape, according to the vice president, shows bin Laden, seen here in a different tape first aired in November, meeting with a cleric about the terrorist attacks. U.S. officials told the "Washington Post," that on the tape, found in a house in Jalalabad, bin Laden indicates the total collapse of the World Trade Center was more damage than he had anticipated. He also claims to have told a group, after learning the first plane hit the north tower, that more is coming.
The deputy defense secretary says the tape should put to rest any doubts in the Muslim world about bin Laden's culpability.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: I hope people might quit with these wild conspiracy theories that suggest it is someone else, and you know they get pretty wild around the world.
WALLACE: Meantime, the Bush Administration believes bin Laden remains in Afghanistan, holed up south of Jalalabad, in the White Mountains near Tora Bora.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: We are still on the hunt for all the al Qaeda leadership and UBL is part of that, but not the only part of that. In the hunt up there we think we know in general where he is. We can't be sure, but we think we know.
WALLACE (on camera): U.S. officials have been reluctant to release evidence about bin Laden, concerned that making such details public could compromise future intelligence gathering, but now they have to weigh that concern against the benefits of releasing what some view as the strongest evidence yet linking bin Laden to the attacks.
Kelly Wallace, CNN, the White House.
WOODRUFF: Britain's defense minister says if his country captured Osama bin Laden, it would extradite him to the U.S., but only with promises he would not face the death penalty. Execution is banned in Britain and in most of Europe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEOFFREY HOON, BRITISH DEFENSE SECRETARY: We do extradite people to countries with the death penalty. Obviously subject to certain undertakings that are given, we have extradited people in the past to the United States, and I so see no reason in principle, why that shouldn't happen. But it would mean, of course, that certain undertakings would have to be given about any penalty that he faced.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we get into that it's no different.
HOON: Well, that is the position, but I think what is important, given the appalling horror this man perpetrated on United States on the 11th of September, he faces justice in the United States.
WOODRUFF: After those comments, another British official said that British troops would likely hand over bin Laden to the U.S. on the battlefield, making extradition questions moot.
Now the latest on John Walker, he is a 20-year-old American who fought with the Taliban. One U.S. military official says Walker was, quote, right in the middle of it, and is providing useful information. Walker is being held by U.S. Marines at Camp Rhino in southern Afghanistan. Reporter David Wright is there.
DAVID WRIGHT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Walker Lindh was dehydrated when he arrived here Friday. According to Marine officers, he is now in good health. The 20-year-old American who, six months ago, left home to join the Taliban, is receiving medical treatment for the gunshot wound he suffered during the recent revolt of Taliban prisoners in northern Afghanistan.
Walker is being given the same rights an enemy prisoner of war is entitled to under the Geneva Convention.
CAPT. STUART UPTON, U.S. MARINES: Walker is a "battlefield detainee." He's being held here awaiting disposition by higher headquarters.
WRIGHT: It's not clear where Walker will go from here. He may face trial in the U.S., but Marine officials say that decision will be made "at the highest levels of the U.S. government." The Marines say they here no intention of turning Camp Rhino into a prisoner of war camp. They're building this detention and transshipment facility to house anyone they deem to be a threat.
Daily patrols continue in the desert south of Kandahar on the lookout for threats.
UNIDENTIFIED MARINE: The Taliban and al Qaeda are -- don't like Americans on principle, let alone the fact that we're here specifically to deal with them.
WRIGHT: Today, a few Marines took time out for a chapel service, one of the few comforts, for servicemen far from home.
John Walker Lindh, as we mentioned at top of this report, in good condition here at Camp Rhino. But the Marines are very eager to get him off their hands. They, as you can imagine, have no love lost for someone who decided to join one of the enemies of the United States and privately many of them grumble about what exactly he was thinking when he joined the Taliban.
WOODRUFF: David, are they treating him differently from the way they are at treating any other prisoner in these circumstances?
WRIGHT: Well, he is, right now, the only prisoner on this base, so sort of a test case for them. And they are not quite sure what to do with him. He is being considered a battlefield detainee, but as far as we know, that is a fairly new designation.
They are sort of giving him the benefit of the doubt and giving him the privileges that would be afforded to an enemy prisoner of war. But technically, that's not what he is. And it is possible that he could be reclassified down the road as something called an illegal combatant, essentially a terrorist as opposed to soldier. And if they were to do that, then he would some of the privileges that he is afforded under the Geneva Convention as it stands. Now, we are told that his family and his lawyer in San Francisco want very much to meet with him and to talk with him. But at the moment they are not allowed to do so, so long as he is here. At the moment, the only people that are allowed to see him would be representatives of international committee of the Red Cross.
So far as we know they have not yet made any request to see his conditions or talk to him.
WOODRUFF: Do we know who has been questioning him?
WRIGHT: Well, the only person, a very high ranking officer here, who asked that -- early on, in our stay here at Camp Rhino, not to quote him directly, is the only person that we have talked to that has actually had first-hand contact with John Walker Lindh. He is being kept in seclusion on this base. Presumably the doctors at the medical tents here have also had contact with them. We have not spoken to them about him.
But he said he is in fairly good spirits, that he is talkative, and, of course General Myers said yesterday, that he has been cooperative with their efforts to find out more about what he knows about the al Qaeda organization and about the Taliban. And he was very helpful to authorities early on in terms of understanding what happened during that the four-day prison uprising in northern Afghanistan.
So there is some hope that he will be able to share some useful information. And that is very much what the Marines here are busy doing in terms of interdiction efforts. They are trying to capture people who may have useful knowledge that will help them to understand and track down Osama bin Laden.
WOODRUFF: All right. David Wright, reporting for us from Camp Rhino in southern Afghanistan where it is now Monday morning. Thank you, David. We appreciate it.
It's been days since the Taliban abandoned their spiritual home of Kandahar, but the situation inside the city continues to be tense. Tribal commanders today argued over who should rule Kandahar with Afghanistan's interim leader playing a key role in the negotiations. CNN's Nic Robertson reports.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chaos and confusion as tribal leaders and their government gather for a meeting to bring security to Kandahar. For a moment it all looks off when with egos bruised in the jostle for power, one group prepares to pull out before the start.
Finally, with all the courtesy that is customary here, greetings are made, and under the chairmanship of the head of Afghanistan's new interim government, talks begin, but don't expect a quick solution. HAMID KARZAI, INTERIM AFGHAN LEADER DESIGNATE: You will have for a while some chaos in Afghanistan. It's inevitable. We have to establish a fresh order. Until that comes, there will be here and then some difficulty.
ROBERTSON: Kandahar's problem for now is that tribal commanders disagree who should have power in the city. However, they play down the potential for violence.
GUL AGHA SHERZAI, TRIBAL COMMANDER (through translator): We want to resolve the situation most through talks so there will not be any reason for the use of arms or violence.
ROBERTSON: If the number of people on the streets and the number of traders doing business are an indication of Kandahari's faith in that message, then all here may seen well. However, the abundance of armed men still roaming the streets, hints at violence that could be around the corner despite the best intentions of the country's new leader.
KARZAI: The kind of Afghanistan that we should make should be one that's not ruled by warlordism. Warlordism must finish. If it does not finish, Afghanistan will not be made. Terrorism would come back.
ROBERTSON: The day's meetings took place among the bomb damage ruins of Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar's sprawling housing complex, a reminder for all here of what's at stake.
(on-camera): If a symbol of the end of the Taliban rule were needed, it could be found here among the rubble of Mullah Omar's home. And although negotiations now underway are likely to be long and arduous with various factions jostling for power, most leaders here now agree the country should be rebuilt through peaceful means.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Kandahar, Afghanistan.
WOODRUFF: Just a little bit later, we'll talk with Robert Oakley, former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, about the U.S. role in Afghanistan's new interim government.
Well, it was another day of intense U.S. bombing in Afghanistan's White Mountains. War planes made repeated passes over the Tora Bora area, leaving huge plumes of smoke rising from those hills. Vice President Dick Cheney said today that intelligence reports indicate Osama bin Laden is in the area.
Well, for more now on the hunt for Osama bin Laden and the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan, we're joined by retired general and CNN military analyst Wesley Clark. General Clark, good to see you here in Washington.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Nice to be here, Judy. WOODRUFF: General, these reports today that Osama bin Laden is himself leading the battle, he's in the forefront a way, is that plausible?
CLARK: Well, it's plausible that he's still there. I think the word will get out, when he pulls out, that thing's going to collapse, just like it did in Kandahar when Mullah Omar became frightened and basically gave in. But I would doubt that Osama bin Laden's actually in the front carrying an AK-47 anywhere. He may be somewhere in one of those caves, but he's hoping to get the Americans to commit ground troops there, that he wants to kill some of our troops, he wants to make a stand, he wants to make a demonstration of force before he tries to escape.
WOODRUFF: But any doubt in your mind that if he is there that there isn't a way he can get out? I mean, or what are his prospects?
CLARK: I would say that he probably believes there is a way out. And this is tough terrain. And even when you put a lot of troops around it, at night, in difficult weather conditions, with the nooks and crannies there, it's possible for a small party of people on foot to escape unnoticed. I think we have to always keep in mind that possibility.
WOODRUFF: What sort of terrain are we talking about?
CLARK: We are talking about fighting over something that looks like the front range of the Rocky Mountains going up to Pike's Peak, as far as I can tell by looking at the map and the geography and some of the photography we've seen. This is very tough terrain.
WOODRUFF: Now, they describe it -- I'm asking you this because they have described -- one of the -- one of the commanders described it as they were having to dug themselves into the forest of a place call Spin Gar after leaving Tora Bora. So, I mean, we are talking rugged, rugged territory.
CLARK: It is rugged, and it is forested, and of course that does present us certain disadvantages in terms of our intelligence collection capability. We do a lot better in open deserts than we do in forests.
WOODRUFF: If this war -- let me put it this way: Is this war a success for the United States, as long as we still don't have Mullah Omar and we still don't have bin Laden?
CLARK: Well, it might be. I don't think we should excessively focus on those two people, but we do have to break up the network, the al Qaeda network. And so, according to the unclassified information, maybe five or six of the top 20 have been taken out so far. We have got to do better than that, and we've got to run this network down in many different countries, because as long as it exists it can be reassembled, it can pose a threat to America and to American citizens abroad and to other countries as well.
So, I don't think it's so much one individual, but it is the network, and I think the general feeling is that network hasn't been totally destroyed yet.
WOODRUFF: Well, the administration has made it clear that this war against terrorism will move on to other locations. We don't know where yet. What about the U.S. role inside Afghanistan? Once the fighting per se is over, what is role there for the U.S., in your opinion?
CLARK: Well, I think the fighting -- the major fighting is dying down right now, but I think we are going to have to take an interest there for some time. It will take a long time to track down the bits and pieces of al Qaeda and the hard-core Taliban supporters who might be there. And as long as that is a threat, then we are going to want an American presence on the ground.
What form that presence takes is yet to be defined. I think the peacekeeping force that we are talking about internationally is going to be much different than the kind of peacekeeping force we had in Bosnia, but I think there will be an American role to provide information, to assist in providing the muscle if need be and to make sure that when all is said and done, we are able to accomplish our objectives there.
WOODRUFF: All right. General Wesley Clark, good to see you. We appreciate you coming by.
CLARK: Good to be with you.
WOODRUFF: Appreciate it.
Coming up, as temperatures drop in Afghanistan, the need for humanitarian aid -- we've just been talking about it -- goes up. We will talk to an expert about how the war is affecting efforts to feed millions of people.
And another suicide bomber targets Israel as Palestinian militants make an offer.
WOODRUFF: Israel firmly rejected a cease-fire offer today made by four militant Palestinian groups. They offered to halt suicide attacks through the end of Ramadan, if Israel would agree to stop assassinating their members. Israel says it does not negotiate with terrorists. This offer followed another suicide bomb attack in Israel. A man blew himself up at a Haifa bus stop, leaving 29 other people wounded.
New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani visited Israel today, along with other officials from his state. They toured the ground zero of another suicide bombing a week ago, this one in Jerusalem. The group is there to show U.S. solidarity with Israel and to thank Israelis for their help after the September 11 attacks. CNN's Chris Burns has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The mayor and mayor-elect of New York City and the governor of New York State visit Jerusalem's Ground Zero with the city's mayor Ehud Olmert.
Under heavy police guard, they pay their respects at the site where a triple bombing killed 11 young Israelis. They tour blast victims in a hospital. Laya Nathan (ph), a volunteer medic, was treating the wounded when she was injured in the second bombing.
"All of my clothes were on fire and God saved me" she says. The visit underlines the harder U.S. line against terrorism since the September 11th attacks in the United States, even if Palestinians make up most of the 1,000 people who have died in the 14-month-old uprising against Israeli occupation.
RUDOLPH GIULIANI, MAYOR OF NEW YORK: The more that countries and people embrace freedom, democracy and the rule of law, then we'll see an end to violence. The more they move in the direction of supporting, defending, and extending terrorism, the more of this we're going to see.
BURNS: At the bombing site, the mourning goes on by day and by night. Some come to pray. Some come to cry. The wreaths and bouquets multiply around the flames kept alive in honor of the dead.
One week after, here at Jerusalem's Ground Zero, are victims, survivors, loved ones who've come to face their fear, face their sorrow with a lot of courage and more than a little defiance.
Shrapnel tore into the back of Yohi Azarowyl (ph) who left a hospital to mourn a friend who didn't survive.
"It helps me to come back here" says Azarowyl (ph). "It helps me to fight back, to combat that fear."
Nahman Rosenberg (ph), a New York native, had just packed up his vans when the blasts went off where they had been playing.
NAHMAN ROSENBERG: Why do I come back tonight? I'll be honest with you. I'm a human being and I have fears, but at a time like this, I can not afford to be fearful.
BURNS: But fear endures among many here. The suicide attacks weren't the last, nor is the suffering on both sides of the conflict.
Chris Burns, CNN, Jerusalem.
WOODRUFF: A train carrying much-needed wheat rolled into Afghanistan today across the only bridge coming from Uzbekistan. It is the first traffic crossing the bridge into Afghanistan in four years. The Friendship Bridge was shut down when the Taliban came into power. Its reopening is expected to speed aid to Afghan refugees before the brutal winter season ahead. From the United States today, a plane loaded with humanitarian aid took off for Afghanistan. It's the first shipment of food and supplies being sent to Afghan children with the help of American school children, who have raised more than $1 million for the relief project.
Well, as relief supplies work their way into that war-battered country, there is concern that the much-needed relief is not getting to the thousands of people who need it, if not millions. And here to talk about the difficulty in distributing the material is Ken Bacon. He is president of Refugees International. Ken Bacon, how bad is the humanitarian situation?
KEN BACON, PRESIDENT, REFUGEES INTERNATIONAL: Enough food is getting in to feed six million people, but it's not reaching all those people. About a million people aren't getting the food they need, so for those people the humanitarian situation is desperate. The reason they are not getting the food is because the conditions are very insecure and unsafe in places like Mazar-e Sharif in the north, which is very close to the Friendship Bridge you mentioned.
So, it's better, and the food is getting in better than a month ago, but not good enough because there is not enough security.
WOODRUFF: What exactly needs to be done?
BACON: I think there should be an international stabilization force put in immediately. The French, the British, the Germans, the Turks, the Jordanians, the Bangladeshis and other countries who are willing to participate. The U.S. has been reluctant to allow its peacekeeping force to go in.
If there were peacekeeping forces in cities like Mazar-e Sharif and Jalalabad, I think we could do a much better job of distributing the food to a million or more people that need it now.
WOODRUFF: What is the reluctance on the part of the Bush administration, as you understand it?
BACON: I think part of it is they don't want -- they don't want to forces, a peacekeeping force and a military force operating at the same time. It's complex, it sets up two potential chains of command, that's messy from the military standpoint. They have always wanted to concentrate on getting bin Laden, getting Omar, getting rid of the al Qaeda network and the Taliban.
WOODRUFF: But you are talking about two different parts of the country.
BACON: I'm talking about two different parts of the country now. There has been another problem, which is until recently the Afghans themselves, the Northern Alliance, has not wanted peacekeepers in. But the Bonn agreement called for sending in a force for stability and security, so I think that that's been cleared away.
Also, the U.N. Security Council on November 14 called for a stability force to go in and improve security. This is very important. We should do it. We should do it urgently.
WOODRUFF: But these things don't happen overnight. I mean, we are talking days, weeks...
BACON: We are talking days, actually. There are already some French soldiers on the ground protecting an airport in Mazar-e Sharif. There's some British soldiers near Kabul. The British were willing to send in 6,000 people on 48-hour notice three weeks ago, but they backed down.
WOODRUFF: The Northern Alliance said no.
BACON: The Northern Alliance and the U.S. said no. There wasn't agreement on either of those parties. Now I think there is agreement from the Northern Alliance, and there should be agreement from the U.S. soon.
WOODRUFF: For whom is this situation the most dire, Ken Bacon?
BACON: Well, I think it's most dire for about a million people in the central highlands of Afghanistan. These are people that are in the mountain areas, winter is setting in. They can't get snow (sic). Hundreds of thousands of them are leaving.
WOODRUFF: Can't get aid.
BACON: They can't get aid. Sorry. They can get snow, they can't get aid. Hundreds of thousands are leaving their homes, and they are going to Herat, they're trying to go to Mazar-e Sharif. They're living in miserable conditions. Their tents are weighed down by snow. So, they need food, they need blankets, they need shelter, they need medical care. And all of that can't happen unless there is more security.
WOODRUFF: It's too late for some of them.
BACON: For some of them, it's too late; I still think there's time to get it in there. World Food Program has done a great job of getting food in. They're also pre-positioning snow plows and bulldozers so they can -- they can open up mountain passes and get food to people in remote areas. But they have to be able to stage that in places like Mazar-e Sharif, get the food in and begin distributing it from that. That requires more security.
WOODRUFF: Ken Bacon, the head of Refugees International, thank you very much.
BACON: Thank you, Judy.
WOODRUFF: It helps to understand all of this.
WOODRUFF: Good to see you. We appreciate you stopping by. BACON: Nice being here. Thanks.
WOODRUFF: Thank you.
When we come back, the latest developments in the war on terrorism, and the designated leader of Afghan's interim government on the recent chaos in Kandahar.
WOODRUFF: Now again our latest developments. U.S. warplanes continued bombing the Afghan mountains outside Tora Bora today. That region is thought to be the possible hiding place of Osama bin Laden and other al Qaeda members.
John Walker -- or rather, a newly discovered videotape of Osama bin Laden reportedly shows that he knew about plans for the September 11 attacks. Vice President Dick Cheney says the tape leaves no doubt about bin Laden's responsibility. Now, what you're seeing now is not that video, the government has not released it yet.
If British forces capture Osama bin Laden, that nation may not be willing to extradite him to the United States without an assurance that the U.S. would not seek the death penalty against him. CNN's Hala Gorani in London explains.
HALA GORANI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a bump in what has otherwise been a smooth road of cooperation between two strong allies. And it came from British Defense Minister Geoffrey Hoon in an interview with the BBC. He says, if Osama bin Laden is captured by British forces his extradition to the United States is not 100 percent guaranteed. The hold-up? The possibility that bin Laden could face capital punishment in the U.S.
GEOFFREY HOON, BRITISH DEFENSE SECRETARY: We do extradite people to countries with the death penalty, obviously subject to certain undertakings that are given. We have extradited people in the past to the United States, and I see no reason why, in principle, that should not happen. But, it would mean of course, that certain undertakings would have to be given about any penalty that he faced.
GORANI: The European Union and British national law forbid extradition of fugitives to countries where they may face the death penalty. It has caused friction on both sides of the Atlantic. As recently as July, France threatened to release American fugitive Ira Einhorn until assurances were made he would not face capital punishment.
After a long battle, he was returned to Pennsylvania for a new trial. Those same concerns are now surfacing in the U.S.-led war on terror. Spain, France and Italy are holding dozens of suspects accused of terrorist activities. British lawmakers say the same rules apply to them as to America's public enemy No. 1, Osama bin Laden. ERIC AVEBURY, BRIT. HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP: There would have to be cast-iron guarantees that the person wouldn't be executed. I think there have been some cases where people have been extradited to the United States from European countries, not from Briton, but I was told of one from France, which was a couple of years ago, so I think it would be possible to frame some guarantees so that it would be satisfactory to the secretary of state and he would then allow the extradition to go ahead.
GORANI: So far, there's been no official response from the White House. Hala Gorani, CNN London.
WOODRUFF: Late today, a British official who wouldn't give his name publicly, told CNN that if British troops captured bin Laden alive, they would probably hand him directly over to the United States, sidestepping the extradition problem.
The designated leader of Afghanistan's interim government says despite some initial chaos, the overall situation in Kandahar is well in hand. As tension continued on the streets, Hamid Karzai huddled with various tribal leaders today and worked out a tentative plan for a governing structure in the city the Taliban abandoned last week. Afterwards, Karzai talked with CNN's Nic Robertson.
ROBERTSON: Who controls Kandahar?
HAMID KARZAI, LEADER, AFGHAN INTERIM GOVERNMENT: If you control Kandahar, that's Mullah Hasharzai (ph). He has Mr. Mullah Haeden (ph), these gentlemen. And that's it. Not the Taliban if that's what you mean. The Taliban are finished.
ROBERTSON: And where is Mullah Omar now?
KARZAI: Mullah Omar, I give him a lot of opportunity. I give him an opportunity since the day that I arrived in Afghanistan two months ago. I called on him to denounce terrorism. I called on him to distance himself from terrorism and to condemn the brutalities against Afghan people by terrorists. And I continued that for the past two months.
I, again, asked this when the delegation of the Taliban came to see me, which was three days ago, four days ago. The last chance was given the night they were transferring power. He didn't do that. He rather went into hiding.
From the day of the transfer of power, he is a fugitive, a man that's running away from law. He's treated as a criminal. I've asked people to watch for him and arrest him. He must face trial. He will see that he's punished for what he's done.
ROBERTSON: Some are people are telling us -- with all respect to Mullah Naqib that they think that he is not suitable to be the new governor or administrator of Kandahar and that's why the situation we're in now, where Mr. Gulazar (ph), Mullah Naqib...
KARZAI: Mr. Mullah Naqib is not the governor of Kandahar. He just helped with the surrender of power by the Taliban. Those things will be determined by the central government.
ROBERTSON: And what happens in the interim period because...
KARZAI: In tribal council, they appeared just now, a few moments ago, before your arrival. We were discussing that. There is no problem at all.
ROBERTSON: So what is the immediate sort of -- or what is immediate scenario for Kandahar then -- the two forces -- what happens?
KARZAI: We should talk about the immediate scenario for Afghanistan, sir. We are trying to bring peace to all of Afghanistan. We're trying to bring stability to all of Afghanistan. Kandahar is one city in Afghanistan and we'll do the same here. It's all good.
ROBERTSON: What are your priorities now as the head of Afghanistan's interim government?
KARZAI: Peace and stability for the whole country. Hunting down terrorists, finishing them completely in Afghanistan and cooperating to finish them elsewhere in the world. We don't want that. We have suffered tremendously because of these people, tremendously! e have lost thousands and thousands of lives. We have lost our orchards, our vineyards. They have brutalized our society. We want them finished. We want them to see international justice.
Along side that, I would like to have the Afghan people get a fair economic opportunity to live well, to earn decently. would like them to get education, and to live with neighbors with peace and respect and cooperation and for Afghanistan, to once again, be among the countries of the world the way it was many years ago, with dignity, respect and a good name.
WOODRUFF: Karzai told Nic Robertson that warlordism should not rule Afghanistan, because that would only invite the return of terrorism.
Joining us now is Robert Oakley. He is the former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan and to Somolia.
And you are also, Robert Oakley, someone who has known Hamid Karzai for how many years?
ROBERT OAKLEY, FMR. U.S. AMB. TO PAKISTAN: About 12 years. When we were in Pakistan, we kept up with him. We have seen him frequently almost every year when came to the United States. I'm glad to see he is there. He is a new generation of Afghan leadership.
WOODRUFF: What do you think the prospects are that he and the people around him are going to able to hold this interim government together and it will successfully lead to what is next for Afghanistan.
OAKLEY: They are a complete departure of everything we have known in the past. They are not warlords, from what I understand from my other friend Lakdar brahimi, the U.N. negotiator and representative, this new group, that are going to constitute new interim government are very dedicated to Afghanistan. They are not warlords, they are not fighting for themselves, and from their own interests. For the first time, they are trying to do something for the country.
WOODRUFF: But there are others, other tribal leaders, warlords if you will, that don't want them to succeed.
OAKLEY: Indeed and one of good things about the new interim government are the people that don't like it, because they are the old warlords who were there in the 1980s, but they will cause trouble. Dostom (ph), and Mazar-e sharif will probably not easily knuckle under to the new government in Kabul.
That is going to have to be a negotiated long term operation.
WOODRUFF: And do you believe that Karzai and the people around him can withstand that kind of pressure?
OAKLEY: If they get the same kind of assistance and support which is so essential in bringing about the creation of the Afghan interim government.
For the first time we have had Iraq, Pakistan, the United States, Russia, India, other countries working together to bring about something sensible inside the country rather than working against each other and deciding the Afghan factions. And that will have to be extended outside of Kabul.
WOODRUFF: And how is that going to be done? Because the world is going to turn its attention away to some extent, once the war is gone.
OAKLEY: One of the techniques which was used to get the interim government in place was the promise of providing a lot of assistance and the threat of that assistance not materializing, they went through the same thing in 1990, '92 and they decided to fight with each other and the world turned its back. This time the world will have to continue, and everything the United States has said and everything other governments have said lead me to think they will continue.
They will hang in there as long as the Afghans work together. You have to take Kabul and gradually work it down to Kandahar and Mazar-e sharif and elsewhere with carrots and sticks and some military encouragement, but above all, we start rebuilding Kabul as an example of what can be done elsewhere.
WOODRUFF: Is Karzai, does he have the skills, the strength to make this work? OAKLEY: I think collectively this group of 30 that they have, do have the skills to make it work, provided they continue to get the right kind of assistance and the right kind of support. And it's going to be difficult but it's not impossible.
WOODRUFF: Is a U.S. military force on the ground going to be important in all of this?
OAKLEY: Well, you are talking earlier with General Clark about -- and also Ken Bacon about some kind of peace force. That is going to also be very important. It will have to be separate but it will be related.
And it starts in Kabul and the Afghans themselves, at least the interim government, have agreed to disarm Kabul and all the people in it as soon as the peace force gets there. It will be a multinational force, rather like the one which went into Kosovo or Somalia in the beginning. It won't be a U.N. force. And Brahimi (ph), in his report on the U.N., said the U.N. can't handle this kind of thing. It needs to be a multinational force under a separate command. Maybe the British will take the lead.
WOODRUFF: A lot of questions remain to be answered about that.
OAKLEY: That's right.
WOODRUFF: All right. Robert Oakley, thank you very much. We appreciate you coming by tonight. Thank you, sir.
Americans are showing unity against terrorism in surprising ways. The victims of September 11 receive a tribute in outer space.
The Viet Nam War threw college campuses into turmoil. Operation Enduring Freedom is having a far different effect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: American flags are flying high. "God Bless America" is ringing across the nation. But while America's patriotism swells, are larger global issues being overlooked?
MARTHA NUSSBAUM, AUTHOR: It's fine to love our country especially, but we should want a world in which all people have access to the basic goods of life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Professor and philosopher Martha Nussbaum has devoted her career to the study of international issues with a focus on problems playing the world's developing countries. But unlike traditional economists, she said her theories are not based on the bottom line.
NUSSBAUM: I think we have become known for promoting a richer, more humanistic approach to problems of development at a time when it is very easy to let the global market take over and only promote economic ends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nussbaum believes all human beings have a duty to not only educate themselves about other countries, but also to provide aid to those who are less fortunate, both in and outside our borders.
NUSSBAUM: Should we be having expensive luxury cars and SUVs when that same money could be given to support the basic education of children in a place where now, let's say only 50 percent of girls learn to read.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since September 11, Americans have gained a heightened interest and awareness of global problems and issues, a step in the right direction, says Nussbaum, but one that needs to continue.
NUSSBAUM: Before September 11 it was a real uphill struggle to get people to have any interest at all in anything outside the United States. I just hope this isn't a short-term thing motivated only by fear, but that it's an opening toward a sense of ourselves as members of a world that is interconnected through and through, where really there is no big problem that we are able to solve on our own.
WOODRUFF: The events of September 11 have been commemorated with a memorial in space. The crew members of the Space Shuttle Endeavour and the International Space Station held the memorial today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMMANDER FRANK CULBERTSON, EXPEDITION 3: Of course, we were flying aboard the station at September the 11th at 8:36 Eastern when the first attack occurred. We were informed of it fairly shortly after it happened. We were flying over North America at the time, so we were able to look out one of the windows and actually see New York City under attack. That was quite a disturbing sight, as you can imagine, to see my country under attack.
And we could see the smoke streaming off to the south, we could see the smoke pile over New York. And I believe all three of us were thinking how terrible this must be for the people that were at that point of attack and for their families, and all that was following.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: The Endeavor is also carrying flags and other items from the New York police and fire departments as a tribute.
The terrorist attacks on America have undoubtedly changed the mood at certain places, like airports and office buildings, among many others. But college campuses have also changed. Bill Delaney reports that the Ivy League is sporting red, white and blue more than ever.
BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Way over on the left bank of the main stream, Harvard, right? That bastion of hardcore East Coast pointy headed liberalism. Well, now hear this.
LAWRENCE SUMMERS, PRESIDENT HARVARD UNIVERSITY: It's particularly important to honor all forms of public service, including the service of those who wear uniforms.
DELANEY: A bit of old fashioned flag waving from former treasury secretary and now Harvard president, Lawrence Summers, who for weeks now since September 11th, has pitched patriotism in speeches and just around campus, to alumni, faculty, students at a place where the view from the Ivory Towers has not been colored in with all that much red, white and blue, for a generation.
SUMMERS: I think there were some cleavages created during the Vietnam War period, Watergate. After September 11th, I think there are some truths we can coalesce around.
DELANEY: And are coalescing. A Harvard study has found three of five college students nationwide now actually trust the federal government.
(on camera): Encouraging patriotic values at Harvard extents to ROTC, though it's been banned from the campus since the 1970's. If you're Harvard ROTC, you train here down the road a piece at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
(voice-over): President Summers praised the ROTC. Even though at Harvard it has never exactly been the 101st Airborne. This unit is a bit more brainy than brawny. But senior Charlie Cromwell says he and 40 or so other Harvard students in ROTC no longer get even the occasional dirty look.
CHARLIE CROMWELL, ROTC STUDENT: From the students, instead of being kind of skeptical of me walking around in my uniform, it's more appreciative and I really am thankful for that.
DELANEY: All of the uniformity does worry some.
JESSICA GOULD, INITIATIVE FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE: The voices that push us towards patriotism, while valid, also should be checked and should provide for a dialogue.
DELANEY: But right now, on campuses around the country, few are swimming against the tide.
Bill Delaney, CNN, Cambridge, Massachusetts.
WOODRUFF: Racial profiling has been getting more attention since September 11, usually in regard to people who are Muslims or who have Middle Eastern backgrounds. CNN's Brian Palmer looks at the particular problems of Americans who are black and Muslim.
BRIAN PALMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Since converting to Islam 10 years ago, social worker David Scott, now Da'ud Scott, has prayed five times a day and accepted the five pillars of the faith.
DA'UD SCOTT, AMERICAN MUSLIM: Declaring that there is only one God, no God but Allah and prophet, to pray five times a day, to give 2.5 percent of your yearly earnings, to fast the month of Ramadan, to take the hajj.
PALMER: Da'ud met his wife Laila Lake, a fashion design and business marketing student, at a Muslim students' conference in Virginia.
SCOTT: Actually, she met me because I pretended like I was break dancing on the floor.
PALMER: This is their third Ramadan together as husband and wife, a month of fasting during daylight hours.
LAILA LAKE, AMERICAN MUSLIM: For me, it means that fasting is cool. Fasting is in. It's totally in. It's the season to be fasting.
SCOTT: And also through the pangs, you know, you feel it, and it brings you down. It forces you to be humble, almost by force, because - and you're sitting there saying, "oh God!"
LAKE: And you eat everything on your plate as well, I mean.
SCOTT: Afterward, you're like -- and you're thankful for it, you know.
PALMER: But it is also the first Ramadan since September 11, which altered their lives as Muslims and as New Yorkers.
LAKE: It's like an instant punch to your heart, you know, to realize how many people just died in that explosion. It's like you can't even really comprehend.
PALMER (on camera): How have reactions to you as Muslims been after September 11, as compared to before September 11?
SCOTT: I would say more curious. More -- people have been wondering, what kind of a Muslim are you?
LAKE: All of a sudden now, like I'm public enemy number one.
PALMER (voice-over): There are between three and six million Muslims in the United States. Many of them -- some studies say most of them -- are American-born blacks. Islam has been called the fastest growing religion in the U.S. and the world. It may also be the least understood in this country. That, say Da'ud Scott and Laila Lake, must change, particularly in light of the murderous acts committed on September 11 in the name of Islam.
SCOTT: We have to come together as a team, as a unit and to try to dispel these negative images.
PALMER: But non-Muslim Americans must also work to understand the Muslim Americans among them, they say.
LAKE: I can speak as an American, OK? You're not sending me back anywhere, OK? This country, this soil, it belongs to me just as much as anyone else.
PALMER: The teachings of Islam are as compatible with the laws of this land as the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, they say. Problems and tragedies arise when man twists those teachings to his own ends.
Brian Palmer, CNN, New York.
WOODRUFF: A lot to think about.
A check of the latest developments is just ahead.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com