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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Did Olympic Judges Throw the Decision in Pair's Skating Competition?; Has Mike Tyson Found his Match in Georgia?
Aired February 13, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALISON STEWART, HOST: Today on TALKBACK LIVE, winners, losers and also-rans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to use that word "fixed" until the referee from (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tells me otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART: Did the Olympic judges throw the decision in the pair's skating competition?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the Russians have been the alleged victims of this, how much outrage would there be?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART: Also, has Mike Tyson found his match in Georgia?
And how far will some people go to win.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have seen woman put cheese in their...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cleavage?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. And then, they get hot, it winds up melting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART: Can you spot the hot dogs?
Hello and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Alison Stewart, and I'll be your host for the rest of this week.
Today, competition and controversy. From figure skating to boxing, and upset at the Westminster dog show. Say it isn't so! Let's start with the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, and what would the games be without some sort of controversy. This year it's over ice skating. Chances are you have heard about the debate over who deserved the gold in Monday's pair skating event. The Russian team -- well, they got it, but the crowd and many commentators insist the Canadians should have won it. Olympic judges are being second- guessed, even accused of collusion. Let's find out more about this from CNN's Rusty Dornin in Salt Lake City. Hey, Rusty, how are you.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alison, this controversy all the makings of a drama equaling that of what happened with Tanya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan and during that scandal.
During a press conference this afternoon, the International Skating Union President Ottavio Cinquanta was grilled by reporters from around the world for more than an hour about that incident. Now, he says the Skating Union will conduct an assessment, not an investigation, of that incident. And they will have a council looking into a formal response later.
Now, Cinquanta did say that it looks like the rulings will stand, and the Canadian pair cannot expect to see any gold.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OTTAVIO CINQUANTA, ISU PRESIDENT: First off, the competition has been completed, with the awards have been made also. That means that after the competition, there was no remark from the involved -- official involved body, that is the jury and the referee. Then, the skaters, they went back to the Russian room, and awards were made. This, the declaration of the IOC that you are Olympic champions (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is effect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DORNIN: Now it's interesting that it was almost an hour into the press conference before Cinquanta did stay that it was a referee who made an allegation that there might have been some impropriety with one of the judges. The judge was confronted, and denied any improper conduct. And that is what they will be assessing, that's what they will be investigating.
Now, Cinquanta did say that they want to look into some kind of future change in the process for the way the judging is handled in figure skating, but he did bristled when reporters kept asking if this, you know, questioned the credibility of figure skating. He said he felt it didn't. He also felt there was no urgency to try to do any kind of formal response or meet with this Skating Union council before the 18th.
So, we'll have to just wait until then to see what their formal response will be and to see if there will be any further investigation -- Alison.
STEWART: Rusty, is it fair to say -- I watched a bit of that press conference -- that the official was testy, you might say. He really didn't like being put in that position.
DORNIN: No. He was grilled for, like I said, for more than an hour. And he did not like -- you know, reporters indicating that possibly they were at fault, that there is something wrong with the way the International Skating Union sets up their judges. And he really bristled, as you say, at many of those questions.
Although he did say that this was embarrassing and did hope that some good would come out of it, and perhaps there would be some change in the way this judging can be handled.
STEWART: All right. From what I understand also, that press conference was a standing-room only crowd, that it was just packed with reporters. Which always leads to you wonder, is this a reporter's story? Are we all just jumping on this because we have talked about security almost so much that you can't say anything else about it. Are reporters really focused on this, or is this the buzz of the Olympic village?
DORNIN: Well, I think it really is the buzz. I mean, you only had to look at the crowd that night to see how they felt about the results of what happened. I mean, the results were booed by many people in the crowd. And figure skating, of course, by its subjectivity, invites controversy in many ways. And people really have focused on this, and a lot of people that do feel that it was unfair.
And of course, reporters have taken off on this, and it is now the big controversy in the games.
STEWART: All right, Rusty Dornin, thanks so much for joining us today from Salt Lake City. For more on the skating controversy, tune into "LARRY KING LIVE" at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time tonight. He will have the Canadian figure skating team on the show, along with skater Nancy Kerrigan, someone who knows a little something. Remember that Tanya Harding lady?
All right. With us now is Ivan Lebedev, a Washington-based senior correspondent for the Russian wire service TASS, and we have invited Mark Lund, publisher of "The International Figure Skating" magazine to join us again. You might remember that yesterday Mark came on this show and said quite bluntly the skating decision was a fix. Thanks so much for joining us.
Ivan, how is this playing out with the Russian populace? They must be very thrilled and just think the Canadians are sore losers.
IVAN LEBEDEV, TASS WIRE SERVICE: Well, first of all, I think that the Russian figure skaters deserved this victory, and it's very natural that the Canadians were upset.
But both pairs -- I should say that both pairs were brilliant. They were very good. Probably the Canadians were a little bit better during their long program, but I would say that there were not enough better to win the gold medals. And don't remember, please, that the Russian pair was also in first place after the short program, and -- moreover, if I'm not mistaken, seven of nine judges gave to the Russian pair high marks for their artistic performance at the long program. And I think it says something.
STEWART: All right. Mark Lund, you have just heard what Ivan has to say. Do you still stand by your idea that it was fixed and the Canadians were robbed, eh?
MARK LUND, "INTERNATIONAL FIGURE SKATING" MAGAZINE: Oh, I completely stand by my idea, and I disagree with Ivan completely. I mean, there obviously is something going on. They are having their assessment, their internal investigation. They're having their council on the 18th. And there have been just more suggestions of these improprieties. So I disagree with Ivan completely.
STEWART: Ivan, something I want to kind of get at, this is the 11th consecutive time that the Russians have won the gold medal in skating. Is there a lot pressure on either the judges or the skaters to come home with that gold this time, and next time, and next time?
LEBEDEV: Well, I think that of course there is pressure on the athletes as on any one athlete that takes part in the Olympic competition, because it's considered to be the most important, the most prestigious competition.
Speaking about judges, I don't really know whether there is any kind of pressure there. There are a lot of rumors about the subjectivity of the judges in the figure skating. It's not a secret to anyone. But I examined today all the publications in the American and Canadian press, and I can say that all these rumors about some kind of a trade-off or some kind of a camps -- Eastern camp or North American camp -- among the judges, they are nothing more that rumors and allegations. And nobody has yet provided any credible confirmation that there was or could be any kind of a trade-off.
STEWART: Mark, it seems like obviously the Russian skaters aren't really in the spotlight, under the hot light, I should say, it's more the judges. What would you want to see changed about judging, if this really does come down to a judging issue?
LUND: Well, what President Cinquanta said during the press conference is that he proposes that anyone that wants to present an independent evaluation of the judging system, to do so through the member federations, and it will be presented to the ISU council in June in Japan.
I mean, changes can happen at the ISU. Cinquanta wants to double his efforts to make changes. I still disagree with Ivan. I mean, you know, this kind of thing has happened before in figure skating. This is nothing new. We have to go back yet again to examine 1998 in Nagano, what happened in ice dancing.
STEWART: All right, Mark and Ivan, we are going to get back to that and get some feedback from the people who are sitting in our audience. But right now, we'll take a quick break, get out of here, and we will continue on with the ice skating controversy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STEWART: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. We are talking about the skating controversy. We've been talking to experts, so let's talk to some real people. This is Roman (ph), and you are really from Canada?
ROMAN: I am from Canada.
STEWART: I bet you have an opinion about this, don't you?
ROMAN: I do. I do. I'm very, very concerned that when you go to the Olympics and you are supposed to be given an award for a flawless performance, in this case Jamie and David put in a flawless performance at the Olympics, and they failed to clinch the gold medal. And the skaters that did win the gold medal did not put in a flawless performance.
I can understand that judges may be sympathetic to Yelena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze, because...
STEWART: I'm glad you said that, not me.
ROMAN: Yelena had to overcome some very difficult personal challenges and obstacles, with her physical injuries in the past for years, in order to perform at the Olympics. However, the Olympics is not about being sympathetic to what you could have done, it's what you actually did at that second on that day, and that's not what happened.
STEWART: Just so people know, Ivan or Mark, whoever wants to take this question, can you tell people a little bit about Yelena's past, because that's actually kind of getting overshadowed in all this, what she has accomplished over the past few years, considering her injuries. Explain the injury, either one of you.
LUND: Well, Yelena had a very serious head injury, if I remember the history right -- and maybe Ivan knows a bit more than I do. It was one of her original pair partners, there was an injury resulting in I believe a rather gaping hole in her head. And she was in the hospital for some time, the recovery lasted for quite some time, and I think there was even a question whether she would even come back to skate.
STEWART: Absolutely. Mark, let me ask you this, one that is sort of interesting: I don't think anyone really knew Dave and Jamie's name necessarily. Now everybody does. Will they actually get some sort of a bounce off of this? They are sort of sweethearts now, compared to the Russian duo.
LUND: Well, I hope they get some sort of a bounce out of this. They are greats kids and all that. I do know, it has been confirmed to me, that prior to these games they weren't scheduled to skate in either Stars on Ice or the Champions on Ice tour, so right now there's -- well, there was, prior to the game, limited opportunities to them. But now I suspect they are going to have even more opportunities available to them, which is good for them.
STEWART: Absolutely. Ivan, what stands for the Russian pair once they get home?
LEBEDEV: Well, I think they'll come home as real Olympic champions. They will be greeted by Russian fans, by Russian public, because, as I said, I think that they really deserved this victory.
And I would like to add some more things about that. Frankly speaking, I don't like all the coverage by U.S. or Canadian press of all these events, and I think that this controversy...
STEWART: Ivan, what don't you like? What don't you like about the coverage? What is it that you don't like about the coverage?
LEBEDEV: Well, I'm just trying to explain what I don't like about the coverage.
LUND: Yeah, please.
LEBEDEV: I don't like that this controversy is spun off by American and Canadian press. And by the way, it was driven by primarily by NBC commentator who is the former Canadian figure skater, and it was very natural that she was rooting for Canadian press.
But I think there was kind of a lack of objectivity in this coverage and these reports. And if I may, I would like to add also that I don't understand my American and Canadian colleagues who are trying to find out some kind of a political background in all of this story.
STEWART: With all this, let's -- let's get away from the politics...
(CROSSTALK)
STEWART: I want to give Mark a chance.
LUND: Ivan, I still have to disagree with you, you know. I mean, if this -- anyone that watched these two programs, anyone -- I mean, my 11-year-old niece called me the other day and said to me, "uncle Mark, I don't understand." I mean, how do I explain this to 11-year-old when the worst of the two teams wins, and the better of the two teams loses? It doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, so someone has to explain this, you know.
STEWART: What about the difference -- you know, there is a subjective nature to ice skating. You kind of have to deal with that, if you are going to have that creative part of the sport, you got to deal with it.
LUND: Well, that's interesting. You know, figure skating has always been a subjective sport, it always has pretty much been judged along these lines, you know. You know, usually the deciding mark is in the presentation factor, you know. And you know, some events have been close in the past, you know, and people have different opinions of how things are. For example, I go back to Skate America this year, when everyone thought Sara Hughes should have beat Michelle Kwan. Some people thought that, some people didn't, but at the end of the day if was just everyone's opinion. It was nothing like this.
STEWART: All right. Mark Lund and Ivan Lebedev, thank you so much for presenting both sides. I really appreciate it.
And it's time to move on to our next stop, which is Atlanta, Georgia, right here, and Mr. Mike Tyson. We will be back.
Coming up on TALKBACK LIVE, Las Vegas rejected his advances. Now does Iron Mike have Georgia on his mind?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STEWART: All right. We are back.
Nevada didn't want him. Georgia does. Mike Tyson's recent run- in with Lennox Lewis at a New York news conference -- oh, there they go, hey, good afternoon -- conference didn't stop Georgia from awarding the boxer a license to fight in Atlanta. Down, boys, down. But it's not really a done deal yet. Other cities are also considering hosting a Mike Tyson/Lennox Lewis showdown inside of a ring this time.
Here to talk about is Terry Moore, a sports columnist at the "Atlanta Journal Constitution." He was actually at a fight where Tyson bit Evander Holyfield's ear. And Bert Sugar, a boxing writer and historian. His latest book is "Sting Like a Bee, the Muhammad Ali Story." Welcome, our guests, everybody.
All right, Terry. Nevada said no, Georgia said yes. What's with Georgia?
TERENCE MOORE, ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION: Georgia is smart, Nevada is stupid. I mean, we are talking about possibly $400 million to the local economy. That's huge. And I'll tell you something, you got a guy named Dickie Coles (ph), who is the head of the Texas Boxing Commission, and he's got it just about right. He said that no one has ever held a church in a boxing arena. This is called boxing. This is a cruel and vicious sport. Mike Tyson is a cruel and vicious person. Perfect fit for an imperfect sport.
STEWART: So now you don't believe that Nevada is actually taking the high road in this, and Georgia is just taking the financial road?
MOORE: No, no. Well, I think that Georgia is taking the smart road. And right now, I think Nevada is probably regretting the decision as we speak.
STEWART: All right. Let's talk to Bert Sugar. What do you think about the decision that was made by Georgia? Is it a smart one, or is Nevada correct?
BERT SUGAR, BOXING PROMOTER/HISTORIAN: I don't know who comes up with $400 million, I think it's probably Arthur Andersen. All I think that is Georgia is asking for problems, Atlanta is asking for problems. They are getting a man who basically -- it's not just what he does in the ring. At his last two fights in Nevada, he -- his crowd had a riot at a casino, and basically Tupac Shakur, if you can find him, didn't get out so well. He was shot dead in front of one of these casinos.
I think Georgia is asking for trouble, and I know that it focuses on -- all eyes of the world will be on Atlanta, just as all eyes of the world were on London, when Jack the Ripper was running around. They've got to ask questions. Nobody asked Jack the Ripper, why don't you ever date the same girl twice? And Atlanta is going to find out.
STEWART: Now, is it fair to really equate Mike Tyson with Jack the Ripper, a man who (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people?
SUGAR: No, Hannibal Lecter would be closest. Hannibal Lecter would be closest.
MOORE: Everything that Bert says is exactly right. There is no question about that. But you know what, we're in the real world. In the real world, people love car crashes, people love train wrecks, people like -- it's like the gladiators of old. People love that sort of thing.
And I'll tell you something, if this fight takes place here in Atlanta, in the Georgia Dome, you are talking about 72,000 seats, you're talking about 85,000 people crammed in there, to this crash, this car crash, this train crash named Mike Tyson.
STEWART: Now, there have been a report that the Atlanta Dome has put about $12 million already for insurance and the like. Isn't that quite a gamble, considering this guy could implode?
MOORE: No.
STEWART: It's not a gamble?
MOORE: No, it's not. It's not a gamble at all. When you have a chance to get something -- this is a once-in-a-lifetime type of situation.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm saying that I agree with Bert, I think that this guy is a maniac, this guy is crazy. But you know what? If you look at human nature, this is what sells. And particularly in this time in Atlanta, when people get into flash and that sort of thing, this will be huge.
STEWART: So Bert, if this guy is crazy -- I have heard crazy, insane, he's on and off of all kinds of depressants and mood altering drugs, why isn't someone stepping in and saying to him, you know what, Mike, step out of the ring, let's get you some help, let's get you in a hospital?
SUGAR: Well, to go to the point that was made, he is money. He's money. I just don't think this fight is ever going to happen. I -- you know, I think it has about as much chance happening as my twin brother forgetting my birthday. This fight doesn't happen.
First of all, it cannot happen in April, because they have already passed the date. Secondarily, as the original contract was written, Georgia is not one of the jurisdictions in it. They must now go back to a new contract. Lennox Lewis does not want to share 50/50 with Mike Tyson, as he had in the first contract. He wants his piece, if you will, of flesh that Mike got out of him in the press conference.
And last but not least, is anybody considering the fact Mike Tyson is soon to be up on two rape charges in the state of Nevada? How does NOW, and the other citizenry of Georgia feel about that?
STEWART: All right. Commentary?
MOORE: It will make people more excited to see this fight.
STEWART: We're going to talk to...
(CROSSTALK)
SUGAR: Good. A serial rapist.
STEWART: We're going to talk to people about just some of those subjects in a little bit, but we got to take a quick break. We'll be right back with more of TALKBACK LIVE and Mike Tyson. Not here, though.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STEWART: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Alison Stewart.
And the discussion on the table right now is about Mike Tyson, whether he should fight, that he was granted a license to fight in Georgia. We are talking to Terry Moore and Bert Sugar.
You believe that it is OK for him to fight, period. Some people in our audience have said Mike Tyson just shouldn't be fighting; he is dangerous.
MOORE: Well, you know what? We are the United States of America. This is not Afghanistan. You can do whatever you want to do.
If Mike Tyson wants to fight, he should be allowed to fight. We are talking about a sport that just is not a holier-than-thou sport. What is wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with that. And what gets me is, all the people to say that they do not want to go see the fight, that he shouldn't fight, they will be among the first people in line to get up there to see him possibly bite somebody or kick somebody or do whatever.
SUGAR: Terry, Alison, may I just say something?
I will not be one of those. I am not covering the fight. I don't cover circuses. Terry, you cover for me.
(LAUGHTER) STEWART: We have got a fellow on the phone from Canada who says he doesn't even really think Mike Tyson wants to fight, but not necessarily because he does not think he can win, right?
CALLER: That's right.
I got a couple of concerns here. I was listening to you guys talk. And, Bert and Terry, you guys brought up a lot of good points. I wanted to ask you guys, what do you think about the fact that, rather than discuss about Georgia being the smart one and Nevada being the dumb one to let go of the fight, what do you guys think about him actually wanting to fight, because if he did want to truly want to fight, then obviously he would not have done that at the press conference? Is that right or wrong?
SUGAR: No, that was a theory. That was a theory that came out of something that happened in the Mike Tyson ear-bite contest with Evander Holyfield, the theory being that he now knew he could not win in the ring. He reverted to form, if you will, so he could go out on his own shield, on his own basis saying, "I am still the baddest man on the planet."
That was carried over by some people into thinking, well, he didn't want the fight because he is acting the same way. I don't know if that's a carry-over that I can sustain.
MOORE: And, you know, the other thing about that, it is amazing to me when people say that. Mike Tyson is not that smart. I do not think he is sitting around calculating, all right, if I do that, if he does that, I am going to do this and I am going to get out of the fight.
He is a guy that just reacts out there, which is what makes him very appealing to the masses, rightfully or wrongfully. He is what he is.
STEWART: Well, on Monday -- Texas was one of the states they were thinking about possibly going for a license. And the Motor Speedway said Mike Tyson does not fit into our values. He is not wholesome entertainment. Is this not about sport anymore when you are talking about Mike Tyson? Is it about circus and entertainment and spectacle? And what does that do to boxing?
MOORE: Well, you know what? I'm going to let Bert finish this, because Bert has been around a lot longer than I have.
(LAUGHTER)
MOORE: But I will tell you one thing. I think boxing has always been about circus and it's always been about entertainment. And for people to pretend otherwise, they are just fooling themselves. It's got the nice name, the sweet science, but you know what? It is a vicious, barbaric sport, always has been, always will be.
STEWART: So why should we be surprised when the participants act in a vicious, barbaric way? MOORE: Thank you very much.
SUGAR: There are rules. There are some rules. I will admit to everything you say, up to a point. There are rules.
And when a man breaks every one of those rules, every one, trying to break arms, hit referees, bite ears, I am afraid it is no longer a sweet science, no. But it is not any science. It is not a sport anymore. It is pure and away simple assault and battery. And I think there are laws against that.
STEWART: All right, Doug, you have been sort of nodding and then sort of wanting to make a comment. So now is your chance.
DOUG: Well, I certainly agree it is a barbaric sport. It's one of the more exploitive sports. I think this man might not be capable of operating in normal society and he is being exploited because of that.
STEWART: What about the folks who say, if you make millions and millions and millions of dollars, you are not being too exploited; you are choosing your exploitation?
DOUG: That's true. He is making money, but he is also another disposable product. This human being has now become a disposable product. He is going being consumed. And it is just not fair to him, because he is not I think -- he has shown that he is not very capable of making rational decisions.
STEWART: All right, let's go to a fellow audience member, Daryn over there.
DARYN: Well, in addition to what he is saying, I think something to be considered, I think boxing's integrity is at question here. I mean, it's obviously a money thing, but I think it is getting to the point with Mike Tyson where it is more important than the money now, because boxing is going to come under fire as: Is it a sport or is it just another way to exploit people for money?
STEWART: All right, we've got somebody on the phone from New York.
Hello, New York.
CALLER: Hello, how are you?
STEWART: Fine, thank you. What's up?
CALLER: Yes, well, I think somewhere you have to forget about the money and draw the line. I think people are sick of this guy. And he gives boxing definitely a bad name. You have to remind yourself that he is a convicted felon. He is still facing rape charges. And if it were in another sport like baseball or something like that, he would be thrown out of the league. And to grant this guy a license I think does more harm than anything good.
STEWART: Terry, what is your response to that?
MOORE: You know something? One of the things I'm trying to keep from laughing here -- boxing, integrity in the same sentence? We're talking about a sport where Sonny Liston used to bust kneecaps for the mob. This has never been a sport about integrity. And people need to wake up about that.
Mike Tyson giving boxing a bad name and a black eye? These are things that are easy for people to say, but they are just not true. Mike Tyson is not a good person. But you know what? There has been a lot of bad people in boxing. That is just the nature of the sport.
SUGAR: Yes, I understand what you are saying, Terry. But the point is, boxing ran out of black eyes in 1910. I think that the state of Georgia takes part of this blame. For $10, he got a license. They just figured he was medically sane and medically pure. How about mentally?
And also, the state of Texas would have turned him down anyway, because they have a law on the books that says that all sex offenders must be registered. And he hasn't. Has Georgia got that rule? Are they going to ask the same questions?
STEWART: Yes, 10 bucks and being in physical condition does not seem like a lot to get a license for anything.
MOORE: There's a boxer in Texas by the name of Tony Ayala Jr. who was sent up the river in New Jersey for rape, who was also under house arrest. He is still allowed to fight in Texas. So I do not think sex is a...
SUGAR: I do not hold them as a paragon. But I just wonder, if Mike Tyson comes to Georgia, how well is he going to do in legs chains in the ring?
STEWART: You know what? We are going to end on that note. Everybody, thanks for all your opinions about Mike Tyson.
Terry Moore, Bert Sugar, thanks for joining us today.
Up next, we've got beauty and the beast. And they are together.
(APPLAUSE)
STEWART: Still ahead, inside the ring with the world's perkiest pooches. How do they get those dogs to do that?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He waits for cheese. He loves cheese.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have got a little bit of roast beef, prime rib, roast beef.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Marshmallows.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of you I know use lobster.
You want liver? You want liver?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART: Priming the best in show next on TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(INTERRUPTED FOR LIVE EVENT)
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