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Q&A WITH ZAIN VERJEE
Q&A
Aired August 23, 2002 - 12:30:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to Q&A.
Tonight, a look at the rise of Hind Nationalism in India. Just how much support is there for it, and what's fueling it?
CNN's Suhasini Haidar has our report from New Delhi.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUHASINI HAIDAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Early on a holiday morning, these young men could be asleep or at play, but instead these members of the RSS, a Hindu nationalist group that is the ideological grandfather of India's ruling party, the BJP, come here to exercise, sing songs and salute a saffron Hindu flag.
RSS instructor Hemant Balraj says it's also essential for these Hindu boys to be able to defend themselves in a country where religious tension is on the rise.
"It's because Hindus have been weak," he says, "that they've been attacked in the past."
Some of their songs bear a strong message: "Throw away your sticks," sing these volunteers, "and pickup your sword."
Balraj says the numbers attending these meetings are increasing. There is no independent way of verifying his claim. The RSS, which counts Indian P.M. Vajpayee and Deputy P.M. Advani in its ranks, says it doesn't maintain membership records.
But a recent survey published by the "India Today" magazine does indicate that the strong Hindu nationalism the organization preaches has risen sharply in the last year.
SWAPAN DASGUPTA "INDIA TODAY" MAGAZINE: There is a very strong sense of Hindu identity which is emerging. You could call it Hindu nationalism. You could call it Hindu extremism.
HAIDAR: In a country where 80 percent of the people are Hindu, but almost 200 million are not, that's cause for concern.
In Hindu-Muslim riots in the Western Indian state of Gujarat earlier this year, more than 1,000 men, women and children were killed, mostly Muslim. Though BJP Chief Min. Narendra Modi denies it, many human rights activists accuse him of not doing enough to protect the victims and of promoting an aggressive Hindu anti-Muslim line for votes.
KAMAL MITR CHENOY, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: So there is a political mentality linked to the rise of this militancy. It's not something which is happening on its own. It's the politicians abuse of religion, which is used for patricidal discord, to gather vote banks on the base of religion.
HAIDAR: A vote bank whose growth may soon be tested as more than a dozen Indian states, including Gujarat, hold elections early next year.
Suhasini Haidar, CNN, New Delhi.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: Joining us now from New York is Shabnam Hashmi. She's an Indian activist and co-founder of the Summit Organization.
Thank you, Shabnam, for being with us.
First question: what's your sense? Is Hindu nationalism on the rise in India?
SHABNAM HASHMI, SUMMIT ORGANIZATION: There has been a consistent rise of the right-wing, especially over the last 10 years, since the whole movement for building the temple started in Ayodhya.
But if we look at the last five years, especially '99 October, when the BJP came to power in India, there has been a very rapid growth of the right-wing. And they are attacking every civil institution in India.
What is happening in Gujarat right now, the genocide, very meticulously planned genocide, where more than 2,000 Muslims were killed, but there is a history to that, because the first thing that they started was an attack on the artists and intellectuals. A large number of artists were attacked in India over the last three years. There were films, like "Water and Fire," which were attacked because (UNINTELLIGIBLE) or the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which are the right-wing organizations, did not think that these films should have been made, so they went and just burned down the film house.
Similarly, they were attacking all of our research and educational institutions. The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) have been replaced. So this has been going on consistently. Even in Gujarat, if we look at 1998 and 2000 Gujarat, you'll see the first attacks came on the Christians. There were large number of Christians who were attacked, their churches were demolished, and there were rape cases on nuns.
And now I consider all these as danger signals in a society, and if this is not stopped, if in a country today books are being burned, if paintings are being burned, then it leads to a situation where people are being burned, and that is what is happening in Gujarat right now, from February onwards.
VERJEE: Joining us now, from New Delhi, is Balbir Punj. He represents the BJP party in the Indian parliament.
Mr. Punj, we're going to get to some of what Shabnam said in just a moment, but first, to you, how much support do you believe Hindu nationalists have in India?
BALBIR PUNJ, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Hindu nationalists surely enjoy a lot of support. But what Shabnam Hashmi has said, she has said normally what the left would be saying, and the left parties in India, they have a history -- and not only in India, elsewhere also -- of talking straight lies. And this is what Shabnam has said.
I do not know of any nuns being raped by Hindu nationalists. The nuns were raped by the Christians themselves in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and subsequent (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that out of the 12 people arrested, at least half of them were Christians.
So -- yes, that's crimes. And this is a very, very familiar Communist technique. And I saw you reporting just now. You talk about Gujarat, but how did the Gujarat start? It started from Godra and I didn't see a single shot about burning of 58 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at Gujarat.
And how were the people in Gujarat burned? They were burned alive because of the generalization of the Hindu nationalists in this country by people like (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They are the people who (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They are the people who have been generalizing the Hindu nationalists and with the result, a section of Muslims, they got enraged, and they burned the Hindu (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and the rest of the story is history now.
And it's not that criminal violence is something new to India, yes, and this has been there for the last at least 200 years. There's this history of criminal violence, much before the birth of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in 1925, and if there is one political party which has supported (UNINTELLIGIBLE), it is the left party, the Communist party in India, which supported the demand from Pakistan.
VERJEE: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
VERJEE: All right. I want to give -- I want to give Shabnam a chance to respond to some of your comments -- Shabnam.
HASHMI: Well, first of all I would like to say that Hindu nationalism still does not have the support of the majority of Indians.
The majority of Indians are still secular. I have very big hope from the Indians, and most of the Hindus are secular. This is a right-wing, extreme right-wing fringe of the Hindu nationalists or the fascist party. That is one.
Secondly, What Mr. Balbir Punj is saying, that everything started with Godra, unfortunately, Mr. Balbir Punj does not follow the news. There have been a forensic report, and only on 17th of August the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ministry has released a list of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Out of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), so far they were saying that these were (UNINTELLIGIBLE) who were killed. Out of those 52 people, 41 were traced in their houses.
So these were not the people who were killed. They are already a large number of question marks around Godra.
As far as Gujarat is concerned, two of the ministers from the government, Omar Parti (ph) and George Fernandes, they got up and said that there are only two rape cases. I have spent three months in Gujarat. I have been to 25 villages. I have recorded gang rape cases, and I have spoken to more than 60 gang rape victims. I have the records with me. There are audiotapes available, and the report is available online (UNINTELLIGIBLE) dot-org. Mr. Punj is most welcome to go and see the report.
Every single gang rape victim who has survived has spoken about another five to six women who were gang raped in front of her. There are cases where -- there's the case of a 16-year-old girl, Shabana (ph), who was gang raped by men, and then her breasts were cutoff. There is a rape of Corsobano (ph), whose stomach was split open and the unborn child taken out and thrown into the fire, and then she was burnt alive.
There are cases in Shaharlam (ph) Camp, which was the biggest camp, where 30 women arrived absolutely naked.
VERJEE: OK.
HASHMI: So, Mr. Balbir Punj has this thing of saying oh, these are all Communists. I have nothing to do with any Communist party. I am an activist. I am, as a mother, as a woman, I am shocked at what is happening and what RSS and VHP is doing in India.
VERJEE: Balbir Punj, if Hindu nationalism enjoys so much support, as you said just a moment ago, why is it that the BJP has been losing election after election after election? Many suggest that the majority of Indians, both Hindu and Muslim, are just disgusted by the way your government handled the whole Gujarat issue, and they went to the polls, and they spoke.
PUNJ: India is a democratic country, and the elections are not decided on one issue. We have been losing elections -- we have been winning elections. We won in Goa.
And I'd also like to refer to what just now was said. They have a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) called (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and she wrote recently an article in "Outlook," a seven-page article (UNINTELLIGIBLE) recalling a couple of rape cases. And when we investigated, one woman, who was supposed to be the daughter of a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- she was supposed to have been raped while she was all the time in the United States.
There was another woman mentioned by name, when we investigated, there was no woman by that name.
The left is known for spreading falsehoods, white lies against their political opponents. They have mastered this expertise right from the Soviet Union days, from China.
(CROSSTALK)
VERJEE: Balbir Punj -- OK.
The RSS is viewed by many as the ideological father of the BJP and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, an ideological offshoot of off that. Now, in the state of Gujarat, many members belonging to the RSS and the VHP have been charge sheeted, accused of burning people alive, and other atrocities like that. And being connected, at least ideologically, to the BJP, is this, and many suggest it is, a direct consequence of Hindu nationalists beliefs?
PUNJ: Hinduism doesn't believe in all these things. We are the most accommodating religion. And, you know, BJP is definitely an independent organization, but all the same, we do, many of us, including myself, we draw inspiration from RSS.
And if some people belonging to RSS or VHP, as you say, they have been named, definitely the law will take its course. But in a riot, nobody is a saint, and.
VERJEE: Nobody is saint, certainly, but.
(CROSSTALK)
VERJEE: Nobody is a saint, as you say, and there was an enormous amount of criticism and outrage against Narendra Modi in Gujarat for not really taking any action when the violence was going on, when the Muslims were being persecuted, and the BJP government itself criticized for really not doing anything about it, many saying this was state-sponsored, sanctioned by the state.
PUNJ: I don't think anything could have been farther from the truth than what you are saying. And if it was so, there is outrage. Why are these people getting away (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It's the Gujarati people who know who is at fault, and we want people to make a decision. And these are the people who are running away from (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
VERJEE: There is a parade that Narendra Modi wants to have in Gujarat, the Gujarat Pride Yatra, wants to have it, he does, I believe, on September 4th. Many people are asking, does Gujarat really have anything to be proud about? And what they're saying is that this pride parade is really a way for Hindu nationalists in Gujarat to intimidate voters. What's your response to that?
PUNJ: See, people like you, and people like Suhasni, they are confusing the people from Gujarat. They are leveling all sorts of false allegations against people of Gujarat, and it's for the people of Gujarat to restart their pride and bring the truth before the people of India and before the people of Gujarat.
VERJEE: Let's move from Gujarat to the issue of Ayodhya. Why is it that the issue of building a temple in Ayodhya is so important when millions of people in the state of Uttar-Pradesh are impoverished, they don't have water, they don't have access to healthcare. Why is it that there is more interest, then, in putting up a temple in Ayodhya and not focusing, some would argue, on the real human issues in this state?
PUNJ: I'll ask a counter-question: when there are so many problems in the state of Uttar-Pradesh, why are these people ganging together just to stop reconstruction of a temple? They've nothing else to do? Why can't they go and educate the illiterate? Why can't they go and arrange water for the people who don't get drinking water? Why can't they arrange for medical facilities for those who can't get medical facilities?
Their entire energy is concentrated on one thing: how not to allow the temple to come up. Is this the biggest problem this country is facing? I ask a counter-question.
VERJEE: Well, I'm not here to answer your questions, but I want you to address another issue.
PUNJ: No, I'm not asking you to.
VERJEE: OK. I'll have that addressed by our guest later in the show, with due respect. I want to bring forward another argument that's often put forward when people look at Hindu nationalism, that India is a country that's built on secular values, and that views Hindu and Muslims as coming from the same ethnic stock in spite of different modes of worship. And the question to you is, is Hindu nationalism destroying the very values on which the state of India was established?
PUNJ: Hindu cannot be but secular. India is secular, not because of the constitution. India is a secular country because 85 percent of its population is Hindu, and secularism is ingrained in the Hindu psyche.
We believe in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and we want to protect that. And there cannot be any danger to an Indian state, as a secular state, from Hindu nationalism. In fact, they are the biggest protection for India to remain a secular society.
VERJEE: We'll have to leave our conversation there. Balbir Punj, representing the BJP party in the Indian parliament, thank you so much for being on Q&A.
Coming up, more on what's behind the rise on Hindu nationalism.
But as we go to break, let's hear what some residents of New Delhi have to say on this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Violence and uncontrollable element is on the rise, which makes Hindus like me feel uneasy. I'm not comfortable with that. I'm certainly not happy with that. I'm not happy with things in Gujarat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not a good thing. After all, you know, human beings are human beings. After that, they become, you know, Muslims or Hindus or anything like that. A child is a child, a woman is a woman. It makes no difference. I think it's not a good thing for people who are basically decent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hindus were always nationalists, and we still are. We want that India should prosper.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody is becoming conscious about the nationalism, because of this Pakistan and Indian relations also. This nation is feeling (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERJEE: Welcome back.
On Q&A, the growth of Hindu nationalism in India, and what's behind it.
Still with us from New York is Shabnam Hashmi, the co-founder of the Summit Organization. Joining us now from Washington, Gautam Adhicari. He's a senior fellow at the National Endowment for Democracy. He's also a senior consultant at the Asian Center for Democratic Governance and a former executive editor at "The Times of India" newspaper.
Thanks for joining, Gautam.
How do you think we should understand Hindu nationalism in India?
GAUTAM ADHICARI, FMR. EXEC. EDITOR "TIMES OF INDIA": That's a large question, but if I may just list a couple of points here, one is that I think Hindu nationalism, as being interpreted by the RSS in particular, though not necessarily by the BJP's formal leadership -- it goes against the spirit of the Indian constitution, which is strictly secular, which means it separates religious activity from the affairs of the state.
And here we have a party, and groups associated with that party, which are actively promoting one religious view at the expense of others, and using state power to do that. That really goes against the Indian constitution. There's nothing against nationalism, but nationalism in India is Indian nationalism, it's not Hindu nationalism. It's not Muslim nationalism or super-nationalism either. But that's one.
The second point that I would like to make is that in a way, the RSS and the BJP viewpoint goes against the very spirit of Hinduism itself, as the way I see it, which is I see it much more as a civilization than as a singular religion. And in a way, I agree with Mr. Balbir Punj when he says that Hinduism is the most accommodating religion. Sure, that's the point. And that's exactly the point where we defer -- where some of us, at last secularists, defer from the interpretation given by the RSS.
VERJEE: OK.
Shabnam Hashmi, would you agree with Balbir Punj -- and he does raise -- he did earlier, a fair point, that there is also violence committed on the other side by Muslims against Hindus. The attack by the Muslim mob on Hindu extremists on a train in Godra is one example of it. And also, he said that the BJP can't really be held responsible, essentially, for what a few members of the RSS and the VHP do.
HASHMI: You see, I agree with what Gautam said just now, that Hinduism, as a religion, is a secular religion. And I think most of the religion does not preach hatred.
But what RSS and VHP are doing, or the other organizations, they are not Hindus -- I don't call them Hindus. They are right-wing fascist forces who are spreading hatred all over India and dividing people.
I'm not disputing the fact that there are extreme right-wing organizations of Muslims also. I mean, there are other problems that also have to be fought equally, and we have been fighting that. But there -- but the only difference is that when we talk of terrorism, which is confined mostly to Kashmir and to northeast, there is a different way of dealing with that. That has to be fought -- every single Muslim fundamentalist organization has to be condemned and fought against.
And as far as Summit is concerned, I think it is one of those few organizations who have stood up against the Taliban in Afghanistan, or when the Buddha's were being -- you know, when they were destroyed in Afghanistan, or when (UNINTELLIGIBLE) freedom of expression was challenged.
So Summit was one of those few organizations who stood for that freedom of expression and.
VERJEE: OK. OK. I apologize to cut you off. We just have a few moments left.
To Gautam Adhicari, do you believe that Hindu nationalism has united or divided Indians?
ADHICARI: I think it has the potential of dividing India, and that's what needs to be recognized by at least the saner and moderate elements of the BJP leadership, because the fact is that that kind of interpretation of Hinduism may not be accepted by most of the rest of India.
And, secondly, this kind of militant support of a certain religious viewpoint may be pushing people away from the BJP. After all, the BJP is not really the ruling party of India. It's the leading member of a ruling coalition, and even within that coalition there are differences.
And as you rightly pointed out earlier, that the BJP has been losing many elections in recent months. Yes, they won Goa, but actually the point is that the only seriously, you know, important state that they control at this point in time is Gujarat.
VERJEE: OK. The groups, like the RSS, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Vishwa Hindu Parishad, are we to look at them and say, look, they don't really represent the genuine voice of India? And if that's the case, what is the genuine voice of India?
ADHICARI: The genuine voice of India is multi-ethnic, multi- religious, multi-cultural. And that's the brilliance of the Indian experiment. Indian experiment has succeeded for 50 years because it symbolizes in its constitution a recognition of this fact, that it is a diverse country which is united, not on religion but on completely secular values, and this -- if you overturn that, then you overturn the whole Indian experiment.
VERJEE: Shabnam, in the moments that we have with you -- if the BJP were to lose power, would that change the landscape in India on the issue of Indian nationalism?
HASHMI: Well, to some extent it would. Right now, India is at a very dangerous moment, when -- especially when we see what has happened in Gujarat. And if -- especially if Gujarat goes to BJP, then we fear that they are going to repeat this all over India.
Losing -- if BJP loses power, it will definitely give a breathing space to the secular forces to save the country.
VERJEE: We're out of time. Thank you, both of you, for being on Q&A -- Shabnam Hashmi, Gautam Adhicari -- appreciate your time.
That's Q&A for now.
END
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