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CNN TALKBACK LIVE
Talkback Live
Aired October 4, 2002 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE's "Free-For-All Friday."
Are there terrorists among us? Today, law enforcement officials announced charges against six people accused of being part of an active terrorist cell right here in the United States. We're going to talk about that.
And Taliban American John Walker Lindh will have a message for the American people at his sentencing hearing today. We'll get the details from our correspondent outside the court.
Then stay tuned, as we find out whether police in Maryland are any closer to tracking down that sniper who killed five people.
And later: juicy details what Florida Governor Jeb Bush said when he thought the media weren't listening. Oh, juicy.
OK, listen, our panel will join us in a moment, but first, John Walker Lindh is in court as we speak. His sentencing hearing is under way in Alexandria, Virginia. And Walker Lindh is planning to address the court and the American people.
CNN's David Ensor is outside the courthouse to fill us in with the latest -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Arthel, he may be addressing the court as I speak.
He's in a courtroom in the building behind me here in Alexandria, the American Taliban as he's been known. There were a lot of charge brought against him originally. But it came down in the end to just the basic charge of serving in the Taliban, which is a crime since 1999, and, in so doing, holding a rifle and hand grenades in that service.
So that is the crime he's agreed in a plea bargain to serve time for. Under the plea agreement, it's a 20-year sentence. He could get time off and serve only 17 for good behavior. So that is really where we are. And we expect to hear shortly. CNN's Susan Candiotti is in the room now with John Walker Lindh. And we'll hear from her what he had to say -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: OK, David, thank you very much for the update. And I know you will keep us posted.
All right, everybody, time to meet our panel. Greg Knapp is host of "The Greg Knapp Show" on KLIF in Dallas, big D; Valorie Burton, author of "Rich Minds, Rich Rewards, 52 Ways to Enhance, Enrich and Empower your Life." She is a columnist for BlackAmericaWeb.com.
Hello, Valorie.
VALORIE BURTON, AUTHOR, "RICH MINDS, RICH REWARDS": Hello.
NEVILLE: Brian Whitman, who hosts his own show on KABC Radio in Los Angeles.
Hey, Brian.
BRIAN WHITMAN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Arthel.
NEVILLE: And Joyce Kaufman, radio show host on WFTL and WDGA in Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and Palm Beach.
Hello, Joyce.
JOYCE KAUFMAN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hey, Arthel.
NEVILLE: All right, welcome to all of you.
Greg, you are up first.
GREG KNAPP, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Great.
NEVILLE: OK, how much time is enough time -- prison time we're talking about -- for John Walker Lindh, 20 years, 17 years, more than that?
KNAPP: I would love to have seen him get life, Arthel, because if you look at the stuff that is coming out now -- and CNN is reporting this, as many others are -- this guy was a lot more involved in knowing what was going on with terrorism against America than he led on.
He said that he turned down the opportunity to launch suicide attacks against America. He was told that 50-some people were going to be in America attacking America. He didn't tell us whether there were other Americans training at this terror camp. Maybe it could have been some of the people that were in Buffalo that we arrested.
He saw Osama bin Laden five times, met him once, never thought to alert the FBI, the CIA, the police. Who knows what kind of terrorism he might have been able to prevent in the United States of America? This was not just a guy who was following his religious calling and going to fight jihad. This is a guy who knew a lot more about what was going on in America.
Now, the reason he got 20 years, I think, Arthel, is because we looked at this and said, hey, his lawyers -- you got to love defense lawyers -- are going to try and bring back some of our special forces troops from Afghanistan to testify in court. They are going to have to be pulled away from the war on terror to protect us to do this. And you might even have a situation where some of the intelligence is compromised because we're trying to get this guy. So they figured 20 years was, I guess, the best we could get in a bad situation.
NEVILLE: OK, Brian, what do you think?
WHITMAN: I have to say, I essentially agree with Greg.
To think that John Walker Lindh, in his late 30s, would be a free man roaming America -- and I have to say, he does come from California, please but don't hold that against us here in California. This man is a traitor. We need not look upon him with leniency because he is an American. We should be more outraged at what he has done because he is an American.
He continued to fight for the Taliban after he knew the close association between the Taliban and Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda. I agree, 20 years is not enough. This man has the blood of 3,000 Americans on his hands. And we need not take that lightly.
NEVILLE: Valorie?
BURTON: Yes, I completely agree. I think it is complete unbelievable that, even after September the 11th, that he continued his alliance with the Taliban, continued fighting for them. And so I think he's a very fortunate man; 20 years is nothing, considering that he could have possibly stopped the terrorist attacks if he had let our government know what was going on.
NEVILLE: Joyce.
KAUFMAN: Well, I think probably the person best qualified to talk about whether this is a just sentence or not is Mike Spann's family, the young man who lost his life fighting for this country, while Johnny Walker Lindh chose to fight against this country.
And if you have ever heard his father or his wife speak, they make a real compelling argument. He doesn't have a life to live. And John Walker, at 36 or 37, will come out and have a chance to live his life. It's just not fair.
NEVILLE: And what do you think about that, Joyce?
KAUFMAN: I think it's unfair. I think this man should have been made much more of an example of. There are a lot of disenfranchised people in this country. And if they think that it's a light sentence when you betray your country, what's to stop them? We don't really stand for much anymore, do we?
NEVILLE: Why is he getting such a light sentence?
KNAPP: Arthel, there's one last thing on that, too, is that, when this jail outbreak/overthrow thing happened and Michael Spann lost his life, right before that happened, Mike Spann and the other CIA operative had John Walker Lindh in front of them and said: "This is your chance. This is your chance to talk. We can't save everybody. We might be able to save you."
There were no other Taliban around him. He couldn't say he was afraid they were going to kill him. They could have saved his life if he had given them information on what was going on. And you are telling me he didn't know that they were planning to overthrow that prison and he could have saved Mike Spann's life? I don't buy it for a second.
NEVILLE: I'm going to get -- is it Fabian or Fabian?
FABIAN: It's Fabian.
NEVILLE: OK
FABIAN: I just think this John Walker Lindh guy -- I actually was in the World Trade Center on September 11 and survived, thank God. And I just don't think that 20 years is long enough. I thought that the penalty for treason was death. I was there. And I've seen things that I never wanted to see. And I think this guy should die, personally.
NEVILLE: What were you doing there? Were you working?
FABIAN: Yes, I was working.
NEVILLE: I'm surprised that you are so calm about this whole John Walker Lindh sentencing and 20 years having -- knowing that you were there firsthand and you saw the horrific -- it was just horrible, unthinkable. I can't even imagine what happened and what it was like to be there.
And this guy, as we we've been talking about, he is going to be 36 years old walking around, not those people who died in the World Trade Center.
FABIAN: Right. I definitely think he should get death, personally. Unfortunately, my opinion on that doesn't count.
NEVILLE: Listen, we have an e-mail that came across here. And we want to share it with everybody. It's from Greg in Massachusetts: "Twenty years? Why not just send him to his room with no TV for one night?"
Well, OK, Larry, let's see if we have something else over here. Stand up for me, sir.
LARRY: OK, let the old guy stand up.
I find it funny that, you know, divide and conquer. This John Walker thing, they want to have us divided against each other, American against America. I don't buy it.
NEVILLE: So you think that it's not fair for John Walker Lindh to go to prison at all?
LARRY: Yes, I think he should go to prison. But I think it was so convenient, of all the prisoners that they got, that this guy came up so fast, you know? It's just like, hey, we got an American trying to...
(CROSSTALK)
KNAPP: Wait a second here. There is absolutely a difference. It's worse when an American citizen betrays his nation like this. This guy is a traitor. He has committed treason. He should have received the death penalty. We didn't the cajones, I guess, to go after that, which I think we should have.
LARRY: Uno momento.
KNAPP: I guess we felt like the defense lawyers are so good now that we might have lost. So we'd rather get 20 years than nothing on this guy. But he absolutely should have received the death penalty, I think.
LARRY: Young man, you talk very fast. But what I'm saying is, why did you find him so fast and you can't find -- who's this guy -- bin Laden?
(CROSSTALK)
KNAPP: Bin Laden is dead. Bin Laden is underneath a cave somewhere. We'll have to find his DNA. We found this guy fast because he came forward.
LARRY: Divide and conquer, young man. Divide and conquer.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITMAN: I have to tell you, Arthel, I'm often amused by folks like this gentlemen who say, oh, divide and conquer. And it is somehow our fault that John Walker Lindh maid the conscious decision to go and fight for the Taliban.
Sir, this is a decision that he made. And now he's being held accountable for it. And for some reason, you don't like that idea. So I wonder a lot about you, sir, with all due respect.
KAUFMAN: You know what is really fascinating about this is that you listen to the American people talk. And I do a talk radio program. And we have talked a lot about John Walker Lindh. The country is unanimous in wanting a stronger sentence against this man. And yet we don't get any reaction from our public leaders, from our elected representatives.
They have all stayed very quiet about this. And I'm fearful that the will of the people doesn't really get done anymore.
NEVILLE: In the meantime, an alleged terrorist cell inside the United States has been neutralized. That's according to Attorney General John Ashcroft. Ashcroft announced charges against six people, five of them American citizens, all of them believed to be part of that cell. Arrests took place in Portland, Oregon, and Detroit. Two suspects are still at large overseas. And Ashcroft says five of the six tried to go to Afghanistan to train with the al Qaeda network after the September 11 attacks.
Brian.
(CROSSTALK)
KNAPP: This is very important. These are the people that are dividing and conquering. These are the American citizens dividing and conquering. I don't know what that guy in the audience is talking about.
For us to punish the people who are treasonous to America, that is not dividing and conquering. That is getting rid of the people who want to kill us off. These people are dividing and conquering.
WHITMAN: The report that you just shared with us, Arthel, is very, very important, because now you have got a number of Americans involved in a terrorist cell on our soil.
The point is, it is worth making right now. If we treat John Walker Lindh as severely as he deserves to be treated, maybe it might deter future incidences of Americans working on behalf of terrorists and al Qaeda cells on our soil. It's very timely that this story would be shared with us by you this afternoon, Arthel, on the day that John Walker Lindh is given a light sentence.
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: OK, listen, that is the bell, which means we have to move on.
Up next: There is a killer on the loose. We're going to find out if they are any closer to finding that Maryland sniper.
And don't forget, I want you to join our "Free-For-All," so give me a call at 1-800-310-4CNN. Or, of course, you can e-mail TALKBACK@CNN.com
We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: On today's "Free-For-All Friday": Iraq challenges President Bush to a duel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: In the past, when Iraq had disputes, it invaded its neighbors. There were no duels. They were invasions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: Jerry Falwell lets everyone know what he thinks of the prophet Muhammad.
And will New Jersey's election ballot be decided by the Supreme Court? Sound familiar?
Join the "Free-For-All" right now on TALKBACK LIVE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody to TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
People in Rockville, Maryland, are being told to go about their daily business. But you can bet they are on edge with a killer still at large. Police say whoever shot five people to death in that Washington suburb was a skilled marksman and probably used a high- powered hunting or assault rifle.
CNN correspondent Kathleen Koch joins us now with more information about that investigation.
And, Kathleen, are authorities any closer to finding the shooter?
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They aren't at this point, Arthel.
And they are under a lot of pressure. This is a county that last year had 19, just 19 homicides. And in a 16-hour period alone, you have five people violently killed by someone, again, who used sniper- like techniques. Police today showed off an array of high-powered rifles, some military-style assault rifles, some hunting rifles that they believe that the type of bullet that was used could have come from.
Now, this is one of those bullets that could have been used, this type in the shooting. This is a .223. They are also saying other high-caliber bullets, .221, .222, .225 could have also been used. And they say that the person who shot these rounds from one of these high- powered weapons was someone who knew what they were doing, someone who very skilled, who had some sort of training in this. But they don't want to narrow all the possibilities. They are keeping all their options open.
Now, the real new development, Arthel, is that they think there may have been a sixth killing. There was a man, a 72-year-old man who killed last night not in Montgomery County, but across the border, just south of the border, in Washington, D.C. He was shot in the chest, was killed. It was a single shot again, like these others. And the bullet from that killing is going to ballistics right now. They're going to try and find out if that is linked to these shootings.
NEVILLE: Kathleen, how is the community holding up?
KOCH: The community is just pulling together and trying to get back to life as normal. Everyone went back to school today. Just like yesterday, the schools were open. But again just like yesterday, children didn't go outside for recess. So middle schoolers and high schoolers couldn't leave campus for lunch. Everyone had to stay inside.
But they did have track meets today. They are having football games tonight. And people are trying to go about their daily life, but they know that there is a killer or killers on the loose. And that makes it really tough.
NEVILLE: Kathleen Koch, thank you very much for the report.
I want to talk to the panel now.
Valorie, when you heard about this story and continue to hear about this story, what goes through your mind?
BURTON: It is just so unbelievable. My heart, first of all, goes out to the families and the friends of those people who were shot.
But I think the bigger issue, especially right now, there is so much in the news that I think is so stressful to the average American. There's so much that's beyond our control. And it's senseless. It's things that we really can't put together. From looking at war on terrorism, the possibility that we're going to war with Iraq, when you look at things like a hurricane, and then things like this, people are really stressed, I think, about the things that are going on in the news right now. And this is just one more example.
(CROSSTALK)
KAUFMAN: I have a question, though. Why are we avoiding the word terrorist?
KNAPP: Thank you.
NEVILLE: I'm sorry. Repeat that, Joyce.
KAUFMAN: I feel as though the American people are being terrorized. And we're afraid to say that word.
KNAPP: Absolutely.
KAUFMAN: If this is not a terrorist act, I don't know what is.
KNAPP: Look at this right now. We have recovered manuals from al Qaeda and videotapes from al Qaeda where they actually train people to do drive-by shootings. They had planned to do drive-by...
(CROSSTALK)
KNAPP: Hold on -- do drive-by shootings in America with vans and trucks. Now, I'm not saying it is. There is no way we know for sure. But the fact that we're not even talking about, as if we've got to avoid it, is ridiculous. This may very well be terrorism. Let's just look at it.
WHITMAN: Yes, I think that, no doubt, the people in Maryland -- it's a heartbreaking story -- are feeling terrorized by this.
The definition of the term terrorism -- not that I at all seek to diminish, but just point of information -- terrorism is violence acted out against people in an effort to coerce governments or societies.
(CROSSTALK)
KNAPP: And an act to terrorize people. That's why it's called terrorism.
WHITMAN: Of course.
The idea, Greg, is, terrorism is to terrorize and instill fear with the hopes of coercing a government. I don't know if this person is some sort of wacko with a manifesto who hopes to alter our government's position on various domestic and international issues. If he is, then certainly it might qualify as terrorism. We don't know yet.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Panel, hang on for me, because I have Tamisha here.
You live nearby. And you're from Maryland. What are your thoughts?
TAMISHA: I think it was a horrific act yesterday. And I believe that it's sad. After trying to deal with September 11, how do you teach your kids to go about your daily activities? How do you feel safe to go about your chore and go about your business?
NEVILLE: Absolutely. I'm sure a lot of the people who live near you feel the same way. Thank you very much. Thanks for speaking out.
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: And that is the bell, so Tamisha had the final word on that one.
Up next: Could Jerry Falwell's comments touch off a religious war of words? Find out what the Baptist minister is saying about Islam and the prophet Muhammad when we come back.
Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Is Islam a violent religion? Evangelist Franklin Graham suggested as much. And now the Jerry Falwell is stirring things up, saying he thinks the prophet Muhammad was a terrorist? In a "60 Minutes" interview, Falwell told correspondent Bob Simon -- quote -- "I think Muhammad was a terrorist, I read enough by Muslims and non- Muslims to decide that he was a violent man, a man of war" -- end quote. Joyce, you're up first on this one.
Falwell, of course, could have said no comment. Why is he speaking out, considering the climate? And is this helpful over damaging?
KAUFMAN: But I think that Jerry Falwell represents a substantial number of Christian thinking in this country. And probably the one thing I don't know a lot about is the religion of Islam. And that's odd.
In a country that has as much media as we do, why is it that Muslim clerics haven't successfully gotten out in front of the American people and describe what the religion really stands for and how we should be interpreting the acts of a handful of radicals?
NEVILLE: So, Joyce, what's behind your question?
KAUFMAN: I guess the fact that Jerry Falwell dared to say something that probably millions of Americans are thinking. And are we going sit here and chastise him for admitting that he feels that way? Or are we going to question Muslim clerics?
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Let me let Brian jump in, please.
KNAPP: OK, go right ahead.
WHITMAN: You know what? I think we do need to chastise Jerry Falwell. Jerry Falwell, talk about dividing and conquering, like we did before, this is what he does for a living. Jerry Falwell, on the heels of 9/11, agreed with Pat Robertson that feminists and gays were responsible for the attacks against America.
This man is -- pardon me, but this man is a jerk. And he acts like a jerk. And he says stupid things. And he makes Christians like myself feel ashamed for being a Christian. The fact is, this is divisive. This is nasty stuff. I've had Muslim clerics on my show out here in Los Angeles on KABC speaking out against the acts of terrorism. Muslims are, for the most part, a peaceful people.
And if you don't know a lot about Islam -- as Joyce so, I think correctly said, a lot of us don't know about Islam...
(CROSSTALK)
WHITMAN: Excuse me, Greg. Excuse me.
When you have the University of North Carolina several months ago trying to educate students about Islam, you get folks like Jerry Falwell standing up and saying, "Oh, no, no, don't do that." So they just want to attack Islam, but they want to come out against
(CROSSTALK) NEVILLE: Apparently, Falwell was saying two things, though. He was saying that it's the fringe radicals. It's not the ones who are carrying on the bloodshed.
(CROSSTALK)
KNAPP: Sir, let some other people talk here.
If you look at what Falwell actually said, the part that he's absolutely wrong on is to call him a terrorist without giving some awful good evidence that he is a terrorist. Was he a man of war? Sure. Lots of people are. Lots of our soldiers are. That doesn't make them terrorists.
I think that he absolutely went too far. I had some imams on my show, too, KLIF here in Dallas. And you're right. The vast majority of Muslims do not support Osama bin Laden, do not support terrorism. They say this is a twisting of the religion into a radical militant bent. And more people need to stand up and say that. I agree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
KAUFMAN: All the cheering in crowds in Palestine and all the cheering crowds in Egypt and all the cheering crowds in various other Muslim nations, if they all don't support Osama bin Laden and those terrorist acts, why were they celebrating in the streets on September 11 and 12? No one has ever explained that to me.
KNAPP: I think there are millions who do support it. And that's the problem.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: Guys, I am going to jump in now, because I have Shamika (ph).
Valorie, I know you want to say something. I'm going to get you in a second, OK?
Shamika, you wanted to speak out. And I'm curious as to why.
SHAMIKA: Because this man has no basis for what he said. It was basically an accusation. And he's supposed to be a man of God. And he's casting judgment out on one of God's children. He shouldn't do that unless he has basis for it. Did he have this man on tape doing it? No, he just made an accusation. He has no proof. He can't show it. And he wouldn't like it if the man did the same thing to him.
NEVILLE: Joe from Oregon is standing by on the phone.
Thanks, Shamika.
Joe, what do you say?
CALLER: I'm a born-again Christian. And I have been for 25 years. And I am highly offended by what Reverend Falwell said.
I think a person in his position that has the influence in the Christian community that he has is extremely out of line to say something like that. I think he is labeling himself as a terrorist himself by doing that. Muhammad, I'm not a follower of, I never have been a follower of. But I believe he was a holy man who was doing what was right.
And it's no more correct to blame him for things that his people are doing in the 21st century than it would be to blame Jesus Christ for the Inquisitions in Europe back in the 15th century. And I'm very offended by that.
WHITMAN: The caller is right when we he says we should expect more from religious leaders. And you don't hear Jerry Falwell -- or at least I have the heard it. Maybe he has said it. You know what is terrorism? Terrorism is when you get far right-wing so-called Christians who go and blow up, for example, abortion clinics. That is terrorism.
(CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: And it's Valorie's turn to speak, everybody. Go ahead, Valorie.
BURTON: I think one of the most important points here is that, as Americans, we really need to begin learning about other cultures and other religions, so that when we hear things like this, we can actually argue intelligently. We can find out, what is he basing this on? And we can refute those comments.
I think the other thing that is really important here -- and the caller brought it out -- is that he is a minister. And ministers should be held to a higher standard. And he really needs to pay attention to the consequences of what he says.
(BELL RINGING)
NEVILLE: Thank you, Valorie.
Up next, we are going to Florida. Governor Jeb Bush takes heat from gay-rights groups for what he said when didn't know the media -- oh, they were there and he didn't know it. We're going to give you the so-called juicy details when we come back.
Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.
Florida Governor Jeb Bush is taking some heat from gay rights groups over something he is reported to have said when he thought the media weren't listening. Bush reportedly took a group of lawmakers he had, "juicy details" about the caretakers of Rilya Wilson, the little girl in Florida who had been missing for just short of two years now. Essentially he suggested the two caretakers now under arrest for fraud are lesbians, and then he said, "Bet you don't get that in Pensacola."
The caretakers say they are sisters, and a lawyer for one of the women called Bush's comments "outrageous and disgusting." OK. Greg, first of all, shouldn't the focus be on Rilya Wilson and her case?
KNAPP: Absolutely.
KAUFMAN: And DCF.
KNAPP: Hang on a second. Absolutely. But when you are talking about a case like this and you do have some interesting details -- remember the van Dam case, the little girl kidnapped and murdered, her parents were swingers. Now who in America didn't talk about that around the water cooler perhaps insensitively? And these are heterosexual people.
Look, the woman said "Tell my wife I've been arrested." OK? So she was implying she was a lesbian.
President Bush said it. He didn't think a reporter was around. He didn't use a slur, he didn't talk about discrimination.
NEVILLE: You mean Governor Jeb Bush.
KNAPP: Governor Bush. Excuse me, I apologize. He didn't use a slur; he didn't make any kind of discrimination. This is a non-event that the media is making a big deal about.
KAUFMAN: It is not a non-event.
KNAPP: And the Democrats want to use it to try to get Governor Bush out of office by trying to whip the people up...
BURTON: I don't think it's about what he said.
KAUFMAN: This is not a non-event. This is the chief executive of the state that I live in. And instead of putting the blame where it is, on the Department of Children and Families, who lost this little girl 18, 19 months ago. He wants to worry about whether or not the two people who were arrested are sleeping together. I want to know...
KNAPP. Joyce, you're telling me if you heard about this you wouldn't tell a friend: Hey, by the way, did you know these two were lesbians? Did you hear that? You're telling me, around the water cooler you wouldn't say that?
KAUFMAN: Wait a second, you just attacked Reverend Falwell for saying something that I believe millions of people in this country say all the time, that Muslim is a violent religion.
KNAPP: He said it publicly. Governor Bush did not say it publicly. He didn't think anybody was there.
WHITMAN: People talk differently publicly and privately.
(CROSSTALK)
BURTON: And the fact is he's the governor of (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And as the governor as the state, there are certain things that he certainly shouldn't say.
WHITMAN: Sure.
NEVILLE: OK. But, Valorie, if he thought that he was just talking to people in a room, he didn't realize the reporter was there, is it OK for him to say...
KNAPP: Arthel, during the breaks, don't you say things that you'd rather not have said on TV?
BURTON: No, I don't think that it's OK.
WHITMAN: You would be amazed what elected officials say.
NEVILLE: Greg, the only thing I do, by the way, during the breaks that I wouldn't do on television is I joke around a lot with the audience to keep them entertained when I'm not reading wire copy.
KNAPP: Well I'll tell you, if you had the cuts of the "Greg Knapp Show" during the break on KLIF, we couldn't put all that on the air.
WHITMAN: Very good. Here -- look, the governor...
(CROSSTALK)
BURTON: And it's about what he said, it's about how he said it.
WHITMAN: Right.
BURTON: It's the spirit with which he said it.
WHITMAN: If I may for a moment, the governor of Florida sounds like a reporter for the "National Enquirer" when he says, hey, I've got some juicy details on some lesbian activity. I mean give me a break.
NEVILLE: So, Brian...
WHITMAN: Governor Bush may not be governor much longer, but at least while he is, act like one.
NEVILLE: Yes. So, Brian, that's what you're saying. You are saying it is one thing for an average American to go ahead and say something like that: Guess what I heard, but not for the governor, unless he is at home with his wife and kids.
KAUFMAN: And particularly since the governor has some culpability in this. He promised to come into the state and fix DCF.
NEVILLE: Yes, that's right.
KAUFMAN: He has not done that. He needs to take the responsibility for what happened to that child.
(CROSSTALK)
KNAPP: He's in his own private office talking to people who are...
WHITMAN: Stop it, Greg. Stop it.
KNAPP: ... governor delegates and some aides. And all he is doing is talking to them.
WHITMAN: Arthel, to answer your question, for the governor to say to these legislators: Bet you don't get that in Pensacola. Ha-ha- ha. Not funny, Governor Bush. There is a missing six-year-old girl here. Act responsibly or resign.
KNAPP: Brian, did you ever tell a joke about the van Dam case? Did you ever kid around about the swingers in that case at all even though a girl died?
WHITMAN: No.
KNAPP: You're lying. You are lying.
WHITMAN: I'm lying?
KNAPP: Yes.
WHITMAN: Greg, well you should listen to my show.
KNAPP: I didn't say on your show. Anywhere ever? You never kidded about the swingers?
WHITMAN: I am telling you that as it relates to the van Dam case -- excuse me, if I may respond.
NEVILLE: Go ahead.
WHITMAN: As it relates to the van Dam case, and the murder of a little girl, no, don't make jokes about that, Greg. Maybe you do, but I don't.
KAUFMAN: And I don't either.
KNAPP: Oh, yeah, right, Brian. Never made a joke about the swingers, sure you didn't.
KAUFMAN: Never.
NEVILLE: Here's what's going on. We're going to pop up an e- mail right now and share that with everybody. It says -- it's from Jamie in California. "Jeb Bush's comments show just how childish he is. The sexual orientation of two women is of no significance to the case. A decent person would not be such a gossip.
KAUFMAN: And Governor Bush has some things going on in his own life right now, which he wouldn't like people joking about or making fun of.
KNAPP: And guess what, people are.
KAUFMAN: Well I'm not. I'm not.
NEVILLE: All right. Listen...
KNAPP: Well I guess everybody is a saint except me on this panel. At least I'm being honest.
NEVILLE: Greg, listen. Speaking...
KNAPP: I'm saying what everybody else says behind closed doors.
(CROSSTALK)
WHITMAN: Excuse me, I want to address that Greg. If you're the governor of the state of Florida...
KNAPP: You can defend it all you want but you know it's true.
WHITMAN: Greg, in your words, give someone else a chance to speak here. If you're the governor of Florida, and you have a 6-year- old girl that's missing and child protective services has dropped the ball, you don't make a joke about it. That's not all he ever said about this.
NEVILLE: All right. We are taking a break right now. And, Greg, we are taking a break.
By the way, also during the breaks here on TALKBACK LIVE we also do continue to talk to the audience. By the way, in case you are interested. Greg, all right?
Up next, Rosie is mad and she is fighting back. She's going to court, but says it's not about the money. Find out who she's trying to say is damaging her reputation next as TALKBACK LIVE continues.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Arthel Neville.
Rosie O'donnell is counter-suing the publisher of her namesake magazine, "Rosie." What started out as creative differences ended up with O'donnell pulling herself and her name out of the venture.
Publisher Gruner & Jahr are suing for damages in excess of $300 million; Rosie is counter-suing, saying the publishers should have known what they were getting into when they took her on. OK? Now here's part of what she told CNN's Paula Zahn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA ZAHN, ANCHOR: Let's talk about what they brought on, the specifics of the lawsuit. Among other things, it claims that you and your entourage became increasingly abusive and insulting to magazine management and staff.
ROSIE O'DONNELL, TALK SHOW HOST: Paula, how long have you known me? I'm a loud person. Did you ever watch my stand-up? I can get loud.
In the venue of stand-up comedy I curse. Sometimes when my kids don't do their homework I go, "Paco, what are you on crack? What are you doing? Finish your homework. You go into your room."
You know what, that's the kind of person I am, that's the mother I am, that's the woman you saw on TV every day for an hour, five days a week for six years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: OK. You can catch the rest of that interview Monday on "AMERICAN MORNING." And Valorie, let's talk to you about this one first. Doesn't Rosie have the right to disassociate herself from a magazine that doesn't represent who she is?
BURTON: Well you know I think one of the biggest problems here is that we're dealing with a personal brand. And I think that she -- if you look from the outside, it looks like Rosie has built her brand on one image and then over the last year or so it's like she's had a personal transformation, and that image has begun to change. And I think that that may be part of the problem with the magazine.
The second thing is that when you get into a business partnership, a 50/50 partnership, it's a very difficult situation. It's like a marriage. And it seems like she's gone in one direction and they're continuing in another, and they're basically headed for a business divorce, and sometimes that can be expensive.
NEVILLE: Joyce, is that -- who is speaking? Is that Greg? Go ahead, Greg.
KNAPP: That would be me. Yes.
I mean when you look at the fact that the magazine was called "Rosie," that her show was based on her being the queen of nice, that she had a certain image that American people were buying, for her to then change that image -- and she has changed it radically, anyone who has been watching her knows that -- and for her to then pull out when the magazine is named after her, I can see where they're saying, hey, this is a breach of contract. The whole magazine is based on you. You totally changed who you are. We lose our audience.
If all of a sudden, you know, I went on my show and did a 180 on all my views, I would be fired because we have a format on our station that people follow.
KAUFMAN: But her objection was not that they wanted to retain her old image, but that they were becoming much more like "Glamour" and "Cosmo" and "Elle," which was never "Rosie's" image. WHTIMAN: Listen, Rosie -- excuse me, if I may. Rosie has gone off the deep end, and it needs to be said. She is really is out there now.
You know the chubby little cute Rosie with the cute hair cut who was pining for Tom Cruise -- I hope you didn't believe that, America...
KAUFMAN: But nobody ever believed that.
WHITMAN: Well, that's not true. A lot of people did believe that. And she has gone into business, as some of you have said, and has cashed in on this image. She has built a media empire on being the queen of nice and she's not that anymore.
For her to suggest to Paula Zahn that: I'm today the same woman you saw on television for the last six years, well let's start with the hair cut. You've changed a lot, Rosie, and you have every right to do that. This is your life.
But when other people make a living selling the image that you pushed on America quite successfully, I understand them getting a little upset when you suddenly become something completely different.
KNAPPS: Absolutely.
NEVILLE: OK. Let's see what Tony (ph) has to say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a little bit torn, Arthel. Because it reminds me very much of Pepsi-Cola and (UNINTELLIGIBLE). He no longer represented what they wanted to push, therefore, snatch him out.
The magazine has her name. However, she's not the same Rosie that I knew.
NEVILLE: I'm going to cut you off. I do apologize. But I'm going to go to Arlington, Virginia, now, where David Ensor is standing by outside the courtroom with an update. Go ahead, David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, we have now the written statement that John Walker Lindh has read in the courtroom a short time ago. It was brought out to us during a break. It took about 14 minutes for him to read. He sniffled a little bit and paused sometimes to collect himself.
A couple of things he said that are worth hearing, I think. He said, "First, I made a mistake by joining the Taliban. I want the court to know, and I want the American people to know that had I realized then what I know now about the Taliban, I would never have joined them."
And there's this about Osama bin Laden: "Bin Laden's terrorist attacks are completely against Islam," says John Walker Lindh. "Completely contrary to the conventions of jihad and without any justification whatsoever." "His grievances," Walker Lindh goes on, "whatever they may be, cannot be addressed with acts of injustice and violence against innocent people in America."
He also says, "I did not go to fight against America and I never did." He said, "I have never understood jihad to mean anti- Americanism or terrorism. I condemn terrorism on every level, unequivocally."
Now, as I speak, the court is going back into session, Arthel. And we gather that Johnny Spann, the father of Mike Spann the CIA officer who was the first man killed in the fighting in Afghanistan, and one who actually interviewed John Walker Lindh minutes before he was killed during an uprising there, has asked to speak to the court, and the judge said he may do so.
The Spann family is not happy that there has been this plea agreement under which we understand John Walker Lindh will be getting 20 years or less solely for the crime of serving in the Taliban in an armed way. He's not -- the other charges, charges of terrorism, charges of conspiracy, have been dropped against the young man. And if he gets time off for good behavior, the 21-year-old John Walker Lindh could be out by the time he's 38 -- Arthel.
NEVILLE: David, so Mr. Spann is going to get a chance to address the court, you are saying?
ENSOR: He is. And he will probably say that he is not happy with what is happening here today. They lost their son, they feel that John Walker Lindh is a traitor, and I'm sure he'll use that word in the court today, Arthel.
NEVILLE: And David, I know you -- Susan Candiotti is inside the courtroom, so you are standing by for reaction outside the courtroom as well. So we do appreciate your getting that information to us. And, of course, you will keep us posted on the developing news from Arlington, Virginia.
ENSOR: You bet.
NEVILLE: Thank you, David Ensor.
OK. Boy, I'm going to go with you, Brian, first on this one. John Walker Lindh says, "I made a mistake. I would not have joined the Taliban had I known what I was getting myself into, had I known now what I knew then." Or had I known then what I know now." He says that bin Laden is against Islam. What do you make of his statements?
WHITMAN: Well I think that he has now got 20 years to think about the mistakes he's made in prison. The fact is he should have a lot longer than 20 years. This is an outrage that he would stand in that court and lie like this and expect us to believe this nonsense is just nothing less, Arthel, than outrageous. This man should, is as we all agreed on earlier, should go away for a lot longer than 20 years.
This is an American traitor. Too little, too late, Johnny. Sit in solitary as far as I'm concerned.
KNAPP: You know a mistake is spray painting your girlfriend's name on the water tower. A mistake is not going and joining the Taliban, knowing that they've been training terrorists, because you went to the terrorist training camp.
Seeing Osama bin Laden there five times. That's not a mistake. His dad said he loves America? No way. He should have gotten the death penalty.
KAUFMAN: I'm just glad that they're going to let Mike Spann's father address the court so that there will be somebody with a reasonable viewpoint getting a chance to speak. And I think he speaks for the American people.
BURTON: You know I really think that our action always have consequences. You know, it's nice, I suppose, that he said these things. It doesn't really matter right now. But I think we think have to go back to actions have consequences, and that's that.
NEVILLE: OK. Jimmy (ph), go ahead and stand up for me, and tell me what's on your mind?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that Walker Lindh isn't sorry, he's just sorry he got caught and he's sorry that he was just a pawn in their game.
KNAPP: Yes, it's easy to be sorry after you get caught. Absolutely, good point. You know everybody is sorry once they get their hand in the cookie jar.
KAUFMAN: And if he didn't know what he was doing, where were his parents during all this? That is a question that still hasn't been answered.
KNAPP: They encouraged this!
KAUFMAN: Well, I think they certainly didn't help this young man to make good decisions. And now they want him close to home. I think they should put him as far away from those two as possible.
WHITMAN: Look, I live in California. Get him out of here, as far as we're concerned.
NEVILLE: And Joyce, I know that you're happy to know that Mr. Spann will, in fact, address the court. In fact, we are standing by, of course, in Arlington, Virginia. Susan Candiotti and David Ensor are both there. And when we have that information and we have those comments, we of course we'll bring them to you live right here on CNN.
In the meantime, don't go anywhere, because TALKBACK LIVE will continue after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody, to TALKBACK LIVE.
Just moments ago in Arlington, Virginia, John Walker Lindh, Taliban-American, addressed the court and the American people, saying that he made a mistake. If he had known then what he knows now, he would not have joined. And we are getting reaction right here on TALKBACK LIVE, starting with Teddy (ph) from Kentucky.
CALLER: Oh, I think this is ridiculous. I think he was caught with a group that clearly defined what they were doing, and he knew exactly what he was doing. He's sorry he is caught now.
KNAPP: Mike Spann's family is also going to have to worry and live with the rest of their life: could Johnny red have told Mike Spann what was going on in that prison and prevented him from being killed.
We also have the e-mail that he sent to his dad saying the USS Cole bombing was justified. This guy knew what was going on?
NEVILLE: Yes. Rupah (ph), from Texas, what do you say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to know how old is he? Was he at that impressionable age to have done what he did or not? You know?
NEVILLE: Nineteen, 20. He's not...
Panel what do you think?
KAUFMAN: I have a son his age, and he doesn't have any intentions of joining forces fighting America.
NEVILLE: Let me go to California, guys, where Angel is standing by -- Georgia, right here in Georgia. Angel (ph), what do you have to say about this?
CALLER: It's Angel (ph). Yes. We live in a country where our president was the former governor of Texas. And we all know the way that they feel in Texas about the death penalty. We're offering the guy 20 years for heinous, heinous crimes that I would never even imagine in a Stephen King book against our own people, our citizens of the country that we live in.
And we're giving him 20 years, 17 with good behavior. You get more than that for going across the state line with a pound of dope in this side of the country.
WHITMAN: This man is right.
CALLER: I think that this country has a serious problem with priorities.
NEVILLE: OK. Angel (ph), thank you very much for calling in.
I want to remind everybody we're waiting for Mr. Spann to address the court there in Virginia. Of course, when we get those comments, we will bring them to you live right here on CNN. TALKBACK LIVE continues after this break. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NEVILLE: Welcome back, everybody. Again, we are waiting to hear from Johnny Spann. He is actually going to come out of the court and address the press, and we're going to bring those comments to you live. Of course, Mr. Spann is the father of Johnny, Michael Spann, who was killed in the prison uprising in Afghanistan. And we are standing by for those comments.
I am out of time today. Greg Knapp, Brian Whitman, Valorie Burton, Joyce Kaufman, thank you very much for joining me..
I'm Arthel Neville and we'll see you on Monday with more TALKBACK LIVE. Have a nice weekend.
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