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CNN CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT
Interview With Family of Louisiana Sniper Victim; Princess Diana's Butler Cleared of Theft Charges
Aired November 1, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, HOST: Good evening.
Tonight, police around the country are looking at unsolved shootings to see whether they, too, might be connected to the sniper suspects. Police have tied deadly shootings in five states and the District of Columbia to accused snipers John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo.
The latest is Louisiana, where police say a September 23 killing was committed with Muhammad's rifle. They have charged him and Malvo with the murder of Hong Ballenger, a mother of three, at her beauty supply store. The Korean native was shot in the back of her head with a single bullet as she got in her car after closing up the store.
Joining me now from Baton Rouge: her husband, Jim Ballenger, and her sister, Kwang Im Szuszka.
Thank you both for joining us at such a difficult time for you.
Mr. Ballenger, let me start with you, if I could.
You say that, when you started hearing about the sniper shootings in the Washington area, you somehow knew the same person had killed your wife. How did you know that?
JIM BALLENGER, HUSBAND OF VICTIM: I just felt it in my heart. And that's the way that God let me know that they were involved in it. After I saw how they were traveling around in different areas and shooting and killing, I just knew in my heart that they were the ones that killed my wife. But I had no proof.
TOOBIN: Was the kind of shooting similar? Did you feel like the M.O. was similar?
BALLENGER: No, it wasn't the shooting that was similar. It was just a feeling in my heart that they had something to do with it.
TOOBIN: Did you know that John Muhammad, the lead suspect here, comes from Baton Rouge? Did you know him or recognize him in any way?
BALLENGER: No, sir. I didn't know him at first, until I saw the second news flash, when they put both the pictures up on there. And my brother from Des Moines, Iowa, called me. Some friends from Houston, from Colorado, from Kentucky, they all called me, and from Fort Polk, some of my friend where I was stationed in the Army up there.
They said: "Jim, look at this. This guy fits the description that they said the man looked like. And he was small, light-colored skin and lightweight. And he just fit the description." And I said to myself, "That's him." That's when I called the police and told the police that, could they do a ballistic check on the bullet to see if it belongs to the snipers?
And that's when the police told me they don't have no bullet to do a ballistic test with. I said, "Well, could you look into it?"
And he says, "Well, we got other suspects, other things we're doing." I said OK. So I called the Crime Stoppers and told them the same thing. And they practically told me the same thing, that they got other suspects and they are looking into other things. So I was a little upset, because they didn't really talk to me and communicate with me. So I called the FBI.
The FBI told me: "We'll look into it for you, Mr. Ballenger." She says, "That sounds like it could be." And she says, "We'll let you know something by next Friday." Well, this Thursday, I found out that they did a ballistics test on the fragments of the bullet. I found out it did come from the snipers. So my theory was right.
TOOBIN: So, did you feel, Mr. Ballenger, that the police and Crime Stoppers and FBI, they didn't take you seriously, they kind of gave you the brush-off?
BALLENGER: That's what I felt like, whether they did or didn't. I can't say they brushed me off. I am just saying how it felt to me when they say: "It don't fit the M.O. We got other suspects. We're doing other things."
They could have said: "Yes, Mr. Ballenger, we're looking into it for you. And we'll check that out, too." They could have said something like that and I would have all the faith in them. But the way they went about it, they don't care about -- they're just drawing a paycheck. You'll have to forgive me for that, because I am hurt right now, because my wife has been killed.
So there are so many murders in Baton Rouge that haven't been solved. And if you look across the nation, everywhere , there's murders that have not been solved for a long time in other places. But a majority of them are being solved because the police are acting right up on everything. And I'm just saying, why couldn't this be done?
TOOBIN: If I can just ask Ms. Szuszka, how do you feel about the investigation of your sister's murder? Do you think the police did the best they could?
KWANG IM SZUSZKA, SISTER OF VICTIM: At first, they wouldn't give to us a lot of information, so I was kind of frustrated. But then later, I know there was a reason they couldn't give us all the information. So I would like to thank Detective Carson (ph) and then Sergeant Brooks (ph) and the Crime Stoppers, Ms. Donna (ph), and law enforcement, FBI. I really would thank for catching this guy that I know they did kill my sister. So I really appreciate it.
TOOBIN: Now, Ms. Szuszka, as you know, both of these suspects face the death penalty in five different states now. Is it your view that, if they're convicted, they should get the death penalty and be executed?
SZUSZKA: Yes, absolutely.
TOOBIN: Why is that?
SZUSZKA: They are cruelly murdering people for no reason. They have no feelings. They killed my sister, not only my sister. Plus, there's 10 more other people they killed, three wounded. And there was probably a lot more that we don't know about. And we don't need to save their lives or anything, no chance. There shouldn't be no chance at all.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: I'm sorry. I just wanted to ask Mr. Ballenger.
You have a different view about the death penalty in this case, don't you?
BALLENGER: Yes, I do. We both believe in Jesus. She's a good Christian. I got nothing against the way she feels. It's just the way I feel in my heart.
TOOBIN: Which is what?
BALLENGER: I go by what I learned in the Bible, that, when Jesus died on the cross, he said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." And if we can't forgive people, as we're taught by Jesus, then how can we be forgiven for the sins that we do?
We commit sins every day, overeat, overdrink or do something like that. And a sin is a sin, no matter if it's a murder or if it's gambling or whatever. But what I'm looking at is, I learned that you have to forgive in order to be forgiven.
And, therefore, if they're killed by the death penalty, they can't be forgiven, because now, if they go to prison for the rest of their life -- which I hope they do -- that they will have a chance to go into counseling, that they will see a chaplain, and maybe they can accept Jesus as their lord and savior, as I did, and be forgiven.
It is better to take punishment here on Earth from man than it is to face God and go to hell for all eternity. And I am praying for their souls. I hate what they did. I am upset, because I lost my wife. I don't like what they did. But I have to forgive them, because that's how I was taught and that's what I believe right now. And the death penalty is not the answer. TOOBIN: Mr. Ballenger and Ms. Szuszka, we really appreciate you both taking the time to talk with us and share your thoughts with us at this difficult time. Thank you very much.
Also in Baton Rouge, police there are seeking DNA samples from Muhammad and Malvo to compare with samples in the case of a serial killer who has stabbed and strangled three women there. Police right now say they have no links between the two men and the three killings. But there has been a break in their search for that serial killer.
And CNN investigative correspondent Art Harris has that and some background on a case that has baffled police.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ART HARRIS, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Homicide detective Tommy Rice.
TOMMY RICE, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: I have been involved in multiple murders, but not necessarily as a serial killer category.
HARRIS: On the trail of his first serial killer, who has haunted Baton Rouge for over a year.
RICE: People ask me, "What we should do?" I just simply tell them, "This isn't Mayberry anymore."
HARRIS: Three men brutally murdered, all white, upscale -- police reexamining 37 unsolved murders of women here over the last decade for any possible clues.
RICE: We're really under a lot of pressure to solve this.
HARRIS: With almost 7,000 tips and no arrests, women keep buying guns and locking doors, while cops like Tommy Rice retrace the killer's steps.
RICE: Obviously, you're deep in Baton Rouge. And the capital is just right over to our right. This is kind of like a warehouse business area in Baton Rouge.
HARRIS: This is also the place where police found evidence stolen from victim No. 1, Gina Green, a nurse, strangled in her home last September.
RICE: So we are certain that the killer visited this area.
HARRIS: Nine months after Gina Green, Charlotte Pace.
RICE: You had Mrs. Green and Mrs. Pace that lived here at one time, fairly close to each other. That's the connection that we believe is between those two victims.
HARRIS: Pace, a 22-year-old MBA student. Police say she fought the killer hard when he surprised her at home in May. No witnesses, but damning evidence: the killer's DNA found at both crime scenes. (on camera): Do you have to start thinking like a killer to find him?
RICE: Pretty much. You have to do that. You have to place yourself in that situation. What is the motivating factor here? That's where your profile comes in good. What is the motivating factor? Is it a hate for women in general? Is it a retaliation to women for something that has occurred in this individual's life? Is it a game with the police?
HARRIS (voice-over): Or some kind of game with the victims?
RICE: I think that he enjoys the surveillance of the victims.
HARRIS: But no one has seen his face or provided the clue that could crack the case -- until now, a new witness who ties a white pickup to the killer.
RICE: We have received additional information regarding a white truck and a possible license plate that was observed on the night of the Pam Kinamore abduction.
HARRIS: According to police, that white truck was used to ferry Pam Kinamore, his third victim. July 12, the 44-year-old mother, wife and former beauty queen was snatched from home.
RICE: The husband finds that his wife is gone and the water is warm in the tub.
HARRIS (on camera): He takes a nude woman from her home. That is pretty bold.
RICE: Yes, it is.
HARRIS: What does that tell you about the killer?
RICE: He is a risk-taker.
HARRIS (voice-over): He may have taken too big a risk by taking Kinamore just three days after police announced they had concrete proof, his DNA linking the first two victims. The mystery white pickup, with Pam Kinamore naked inside, was spotted hours after she was kidnapped on this lonely stretch of Interstate 10 outside Baton Rouge.
RICE: She was placed in there, right off of this little trail right here.
HARRIS: Police believe he was trying to prove his prowess this time by hiding Kinamore's body and any DNA. But a state road crew found her. And the police found more of the same DNA found at earlier crime scenes. But officials here say the public needs more than DNA to know what to look for.
(on camera): Are you saying you have to hold back information that might trigger him to kill again? RICE: We don't know what his triggers are, so we have to be careful.
HARRIS: But by not knowing..
RICE: Presuming that.
HARRIS: ... it could?
RICE: That's correct.
HARRIS: Police are hoping they'll get lucky and find out the killer is someone they have already questioned. But, for now, they're running down every lead, because what they do know is, he is out there, waiting and watching and possibly thinking he's smarter than they are by getting away with murder.
Art Harris, CNN, Baton Rouge.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Next: The former butler to Princess Diana is off the hook. What role did the queen of En gland play in the case?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TOOBIN: If you're on trial, you really can't ask for a better witness on your side than the queen of England, as we saw in London today.
Princess Diana's former butler, Paul Burrell, was declared not guilty of stealing more than 300 items from Princess Diana's home, everything from clothing to CDs to personal letters, shortly after her death. The reason? Queen Elizabeth said Burrell had informed her he would be holding some material for safekeeping.
It is a stunning end to a case that has given the public a rare glimpse into the lives of the royals.
And CNN's Robyn Curnow has been covering it -- Robyn, hello.
So, it is just a really remarkable end to this case. The queen, did she not know this trial was going? How come it took this long for this information to become public?
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The million-dollar question. That's what everybody is asking here in Britain. There's widespread speculation.
What took so long? We're two weeks into the trial, two years into the investigation. The palace and many other people siding with the queen are saying that she has been on a royal tour of Canada, that she didn't realize that the information she had was so important. Other people say that it's just a perfect time for the royal family to come out with this information, just as Paul Burrell was about to take the stand and maybe reveal some more salacious tidbits about the workings of the royal family.
Obviously, though, much questioning, much speculation is going to be coming out in the next few weeks about the timing of this absolutely astounding piece of information.
TOOBIN: So, that's what particularly extraordinary, is that he was right about to take the stand. That's the stage of the trial it was, right?
CURNOW: Absolutely. He was going to take the stand this week. We don't know what he was going to say.
This is also one thing that has come out of this. The trial has now collapsed, the queen saying that they had had a meeting in the weeks after Diana's death, where Paul Burrell essentially told the queen that he was taking some of Diana's papers for safekeeping. This goes against the entire prosecution's case, which was based on the fact that Paul Burrell had no legal reason to have any of those things that were in his house, so that effectively collapsing the trial.
But the one thing, obviously, that everybody is saying, that we'd gone through two weeks of the prosecution really taking apart Paul Burrell's character and a variety of other things. He was about to take the stand. The defense was about to launch its argument. We're now never going to hear what Paul Burrell had to say -- so many more questions than answers tonight.
TOOBIN: How about the scene in the courtroom today? This really was sudden and unexpected. What was Burrell's reaction?
CURNOW: Well, this is also the extraordinary thing. He burst into tears and hugged his solicitor, absolutely shocked himself. He is said to have uttered the words, "The queen came through for me," what an astounding statement. Not many royal servants can lay claim to that sort of statement, British monarchs coming out in defense of a royal butler -- quite astounding.
TOOBIN: Interesting. He said, "The queen has come through for me." This trial has been coming up for a long time. He himself had never said that he had this conversation with the queen. That is sort of surprising, in and of itself, isn't it?
CURNOW: Well, what has emerged is that he did mention the fact that he had had a private meeting with the queen weeks after Diana's death in 1997. This was in a 30-odd page statement that he gave to the police. He all along has said that the police were pursuing what he called a trophy trial.
This is another thing: allegations perhaps that the police investigation was really not up to scratch. They maybe should have followed through with that. Paul Burrell was saying that he had actually said that this meeting had come about, never specifying what he actually had said with the queen -- but the fact, also, many questions really about how good and how successful this investigation was and what more the police perhaps could have done.
TOOBIN: Now, speaking of unanswered questions, we now are left in a mystery about: Was he really authorized to have all this? Or is that now clear, that he did have permission to have 300 personal items, including things belonging to the princes, Prince Harry, Prince William? Is that what this means or is that somewhat mysterious?
CURNOW: Still obviously a gray area.
What we're getting from Buckingham Palace sources is that the queen has said says that Paul Burrell said that he some papers in his possession that he was keeping for safekeeping. Obviously, what was found in his house stuffed in attics, in his study, up the stairways, were photographs, CDs, clothes, obviously much more than just papers.
But despite this difference between what the queen says and what were found in his house, the entire case has been chucked out of course, essentially. So, we're still a little bit hazy as to why exactly he had all this stuff. And another question, then, obviously, is: What's now going to happen to all these 300-odd items, such intimate, personal possessions and mementos from Diana's life?
TOOBIN: Robyn, it is good question, indeed, but for another day.
Robyn Curnow, in London, thank you very much.
Still ahead: some other big names with some big-time legal problems: Winona Ryder, Jack Welch, Martha Stewart. It's going to be fun.
ANNOUNCER: Next: an Oscar-nominated actress, a crush of paparazzi, and a former studio head, a new holiday blockbuster? Not quite. The shoplifting trial of Winona Ryder in the spotlight -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TOOBIN: For the record, although I'm a lawyer, I'm not one of Dave's legal friends, or an illegal friend, for that matter. But I do have something in common with Dave. We both have been paying a lot of attention to the Winona Ryder shoplifting trial.
As Jonathan Karsh reports for CNN, we're not alone.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN KARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a different stage 31-year-old actress Winona Ryder finds herself on these days. And while celebrity trials seem almost as common as stars on the Walk of Fame, this one offers its own peculiar set of plot twists.
LINDA DEUTSCH, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Screenwriters talk about a great script as being about a fish out of water, someone who is in a place where you didn't expect to see them. And that's where we are now, seeing Winona Ryder in a courtroom as a defendant in a shoplifting case. KARSH: Since her arrest last December, the Ryder shoplifting case has not been your average trial, not even by celebrity standards. In the media crush on the way to court, Ryder fractured a bone in her elbow. She's advertised her innocence and took shots at herself "SNL."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE")
WINONA RYDER, ACTRESS: People have been acting a little strange around here. There is like a lot of like locking of doors and shifty eyes and a lot of frisking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARSH: But what distinguishes the Ryder case of Saks, clothes, and videotape from previous celebrity run-ins with the law is the cast. On the bench, we have Judge Elden Fox, who, more than a decade ago as a prosecutor, beat Zsa Zsa Gabor in the then-famous cop- slapping case. And there is juror Peter Guber, former chairman of Sony Pictures, which produced three films starring Ryder.
KIM MASTERS, CO-AUTHOR, "HIT AND RUN": These were big movies. This was Martin Scorsese's "Age of Innocence." This was Francis Coppola's "Dracula." This was Gillian Armstrong's "Little Women." All of these were high-profile movies. And she is a high-profile movie star. So Peter Guber, as the chairman of the company, would have caused millions of dollars to be paid into Winona Ryder's bank account.
KARSH: As actor Robert Downey Jr.'s former defense attorney, Daniel Brookman knows what it is like to stand by a celebrity facing jail time.
(on camera): What do you think? Does the prosecution just want to make an example of her because she is a celebrity?
DANIEL BROOKMAN, ATTORNEY: I think that's part of it. Unfortunately, her celebrity status in this particular is working against her. Usually, these cases are evaluated and lesser charges are filed.
KARSH (voice-over): The plot thickens when you consider, celebrity or not, Ryder could lose this trial.
(on camera): What does a felony really mean to a celebrity?
BROOKMAN: It does have ramifications. A felony means that they could conceivably be sent to prison. To somebody in the industry, having a felony conviction may impact their ability to be insured, for production purposes, for the movies, for travel, that type of thing.
KARSH: While Ryder continues her legal battles inside the courtroom, it doesn't seem to affecting her popularity with audiences.
(voice-over): Her latest release, "Mr. Deeds," is currently No. 1 at the rental counter. Jonathan Karsh, CNN, Beverly Hills.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TOOBIN: The prosecution rested its case yesterday.
And Pat LaLama has been lucky enough to be covering the entire trial from the start for "Celebrity Justice."
Hi, Pat.
PAT LALAMA, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Hi. And you know what? L.A. is screaming for you, Jeffrey.
TOOBIN: Well, I am screaming for L.A., too. OK.
LALAMA: Get down to business.
TOOBIN: Of course, this trial couldn't possibly go on long enough for me, but how long do you think it really is going to go? When's it going to wrap up?
LALAMA: Well, originally, they said about two weeks. And what's going to happen is that Mark Geragos has said that he will start today his defense. And he expects to finish up by Monday. And then it goes to the jury on Tuesday. And then you know it is all in their hands after that.
TOOBIN: Having covered many trials in California, I expect it will go in fact much slower than that. But let's move on.
Now, what is the defense strategy? What is Mark Geragos' strategy? How is he going to beat this case?
LALAMA: I think the best way to define it, at least as far as I have been able to see by what he has been saying, is that he wants to prove that you can't trust the prosecution; you can't trust the Beverly Hills Police Department; that, early on, right after her arrest, they were running around on the steps of the police department, saying "We have got videotape of her cutting off those sensors."
And then, lo and behold, a few weeks later, it was found out that they didn't actually have that particular evidence on tape. And so they had to backtrack, and that includes the DA's office and the Beverly Hills PD.
So, interestingly enough, his first two witnesses are expected to be Lieutenant Gary Gilmond of the Beverly Hills Police Department and the press information person for the Los Angeles County district attorney's office. And I think what he is going to try to do is say: "Look, these guys had it in for her from the start. So, if you can't believe these people, these members of the hierarchy of Beverly Hills, how can you trust any other witness who's been on the stand?"
And all this week in cross-examination, he has been trying to prove that they are all embellishing on behalf of the prosecution, because the prosecution needed a bigger case.
TOOBIN: And one of the themes of many celebrity cases, including this one, is that some of the witnesses are trying to cash in off of their brush with a big case. And that came up in cross-examination this week, didn't it? Tell us about that.
LALAMA: It did yesterday. It was really something, because a big part of the cross-examination of Colleen Rainey, who was one of the head security people for Saks, was that she wanted to capitalize off of this, that two weeks after the arrest of Winona Ryder, Mark Geragos claimed that she and her husband opened up a writing services company and that suddenly there was an infusion of $50,000 worth of cash.
And he tried to nail her and tried to prove that she intended to sell this story. And it got really, really heated, Jeffrey, I'll tell you, because, at one point, he had a document in his hand, where he said, all right, something to the effect of, "Before you tell me that this is not your signature and you further perjure yourself," oh, my gosh, Judge Elden Fox went ballistic on that one, to use the expression, and told him he would hold him in contempt of court if he ever did that again, and then, later on, basically was as angry or if not angrier when Mark Geragos called a witness for the prosecution, a Beverly Hills detective, a liar.
It got ugly yesterday.
TOOBIN: OK, but what about my favorite part of the case, which is, apparently, Winona Ryder's claim when she was stopped with this stuff that in fact she was researching a role and learning about shoplifting by doing it? How does the evidence come in on that?
LALAMA: Does that qualify as method acting?
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: I thought it was method acting.
LALAMA: I have heard that, that they actually have to live the event.
TOOBIN: Kind of Robert De Niro.
LALAMA: Yes, she did -- absolutely. Absolutely.
But she told -- according to testimony in court, she told three different people -- there were three different stories, or three different examples -- excuse me -- of where she had talked about practicing for a potential role, but she discussed two different movies.
And then, finally, at the end of the day, it was the Beverly Hills detective who said she also told him that she was studying to be a kleptomaniac -- those were his terms -- for a role. And that's when everything got really nasty on the part of Mark Geragos, the defense attorney, and the Beverly Hills detective. TOOBIN: Is there any sign at the defense will actually produce a director who says, "I sent Winona in to shoplift so she could be a better actress down the road"?
LALAMA: Oh, gee, I certainly hope so, just for the sheer fun of watching such examination. I really don't know.
We have all been asking, is that going to happen and does he really think he needs it? If you think about it, Jeffrey, they made such a big deal out of this "Was she preparing for a role?" business, maybe he would be forced to. You could perhaps address that, as a legal expert.
TOOBIN: But, as a legal expert, there is another matter I would like to address, which is Winona's wardrobe. Now, tell us, how is she looking in court every day? I understand that is a big part of the case.
LALAMA: Gee, I know that's such a big part of the case.
Well, actually, let me be serious here. We actually spoke to experts who did say that how a celebrity chooses to dress for a shoplifting trial is really a fine line. On the one hand, you don't want to look like fashion queen clotheshorse. On the other hand, you don't want to play it so far down that people don't believe it, because they know you got money and they know you got nice clothes.
I have to say, I think she has been pretty elegant, pretty understated and really classy in her dress. There was one day when somebody made a big deal how you could see through one of her dresses. But I can speak from having been in the courtroom everyday. That was completely unintentional, if that happened, because she seems to wear a lot of very thick wools and sweaters and that sort of thing. And it might have just been under a particular light as she was coming in one day that maybe you saw something.
But, really, I think she's played it really, really down the middle in how she dresses. And she looks quite nice, darn her.
TOOBIN: OK, Pat, thank you very much. I guess the defense theme is, if it does fit you, it must acquit -- so, anyway, a little reference to the past there.
LALAMA: Oh, gosh. And remember...
TOOBIN: Thank you, Pat. Got to run -- Pat LaLama, following the search for justice in Beverly Hills.
LALAMA: OK. Bye-bye.
TOOBIN: Keep on that story.
Still ahead: new meaning to the term birthing class.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TOOBIN: Continuing on our theme of famous people with legal troubles, we have got a two-shot right now: first, Martha Stewart.
The SEC had already told her it plans to recommend charges of fraud against her. Then, yesterday, she acknowledged that her personal legal problems are hampering her company's performance, flattening profits faster than a bad souffle. It is a bad thing.
And then we're going to look at the Jack Welch divorce. This week, the proceedings gave up a new glimpse at his spending habits.
My friend Andy Serwer of "Fortune" magazine is joining us to go through the lives of the rich and the embattled.
Welcome, Andy.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE": Thanks, Jeff.
TOOBIN: OK. Now, Martha Stewart announced this week that she is launching a new food magazine. And it is called "Everyday Living," no mention of the CEO. Is that intentional?
SERWER: I think it absolutely is intentional, Jeff.
It is part of a strategy, I think, to distance her name from the company, from the company's products. And it is a real gamble, because, of course, traditionally, she has been the entire company. So, it's hard to say whether taking her name away will work. How do you roll out a product with this company without her name on it?
TOOBIN: How do you do it? Answer your question.
SERWER: Well, I think it's a mistake, actually, because I think, for the American public, they have not lost faith in her ability to tell them how to entertain and cook and decorate all sorts of mundane things in their house.
So, while people on Wall Street and media people may be upset at her, and certainly the feds are, I don't think the buying public has given up on Martha Stewart. So, I think it might be a mistake to take her name off of the product like that.
TOOBIN: Let's just listen to how Martha Stewart described her situation in the company right now. She spoke to a meeting on a conference call for analysts yesterday. And this is part of what she said.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MARTHA STEWART, CHAIRMAN & CEO, MARTHA STEWART LIVING OMNIMEDIA: MSO has to combat a great deal of negative publicity surrounding my personal affairs, which has unfairly overshadowed the great work being done at the company. The fact that MSO has managed to increase quarterly revenue in this environment is a testament to the strength of our business and the superb work of hundreds of our employees. (END AUDIO CLIP)
TOOBIN: What does that say about the company? Is the company in pretty good shape, notwithstanding her problems?
SERWER: Well, that's like, "Besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" Really, you can't separate...
TOOBIN: But not really. She says the company is doing pretty well.
SERWER: Well, the company is doing OK.
And, of course, Jeff, it is a very tough environment for media companies right now. The advertising market is very, very soft. She puts out a wonderful product. The magazine is the core product. The magazine is a great magazine. People get it all over the country. Advertising has held up fairly well.
But she is in such a unique situation. Again, how do you separate this person from the company? She is the CEO, the controlling shareholder. And she is the product.
TOOBIN: What do you think about the fairness of the whole process? This is a woman who has not been accused of anything. The SEC has said they might do something in the future. She has not been accused of anything.
Basically, what she did was sell some stock because her stockbroker told her to sell stock, which is what millions of people do every day. Do you think she is being singled out? Do you think we, the media, or/and law enforcement are piling on?
SERWER: Well, first of all, there is a fascination here, clearly. She is a celebrity. She is not just like a CEO. Who had ever heard of Dennis Kozlowski of Tyco before that happened?
TOOBIN: That's right. True.
SERWER: I think that she may be singled out by the feds, by prosecutors, because she is a celebrity.
Deterrence -- you know this stuff as well as I do -- is a very powerful thing. And the studies have shown that, in terms of deterring white-collar crime, actually prosecuting and then jailing people really, really works.
But it is true, Jeff. She hasn't even been accused of anything yet. And we have been saying for weeks now that: Isn't it time that the federal government get on with it and either charge her with something or let it go? They have been taking a while.
TOOBIN: Based on what you know now, do you think she can hang on? Do you think she will still be CEO of Martha Stewart Omnimedia six months from now?
SERWER: If I were to guess, I would say no. I think that she is going to be forced, ultimately, to give up the CEO mantle.
But is that so terrible? It is really an ego thing -- not that there is anything wrong with that. We all want to achieve and have success and titles. She would still be the controlling shareholder and she would still be the product. I think that she should solve this and move on. And this is a theme here, when we talk about Jack Welch: Solve it and move on.
TOOBIN: OK, well, Jack Walsh is still battling over his divorce.
In fact, this week, there were sort of two signs this week. On the one hand, he hired a hotshot trial lawyer, Dan Webb of Chicago, which means he's girding for war. But a hearing that was scheduled for Monday got canceled because they made an agreement on temporary alimony, it looks like. Why isn't this case settled? Why hasn't he made this thing go away?
SERWER: It is a game of very, very high-stakes poker right now. These are two people who are very mad at each other. I'm talking about Jack Welch and
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: We're talking about divorce right now.
SERWER: We're talking about divorce, people.
And these people are not acting rationally. And I think they themselves might even admit to that. It all started out in the public eye when Jane Welch divulged Jack Welch's spending habits, his expenditures, and how his expenses were picked up by GE. Then Jack Welch was forced to come back and show what his expenses were.
TOOBIN: Right. Speaking of voyeurism, let's take a look at part of a court filing this week. What did Jack Welch's expenses look like?
Upkeep of five homes: $51,000 a month. Remember, this is monthly.
SERWER: Yes. I love that.
TOOBIN: Then we have: eating out, almost $9,000 a month; clothes, almost $2,000 a month; and gifts, $52,000 a month. That's a lot of gifts.
SERWER: I would like to be friends with some who has $52,000...
TOOBIN: We both were very interested in the gifts.
SERWER: Yes, absolutely.
TOOBIN: You have interviewed him several times for "Fortune." Tell me, how is his personality helping to determine how this thing is all playing out? SERWER: Well, I think right now his personality might be an impediment, Jeff. First of all, Jack Welch is an incredibly smart guy. But he is also a very stubborn guy and he's a very proud guy. And I think that is sort of getting in the way here.
He doesn't care that he's worth $400 million, $500 million. He earned it. That is his take on things. And he may be right. But he is also sort of taking the tack that, "I'm not going to pay Jane Welch, my soon-to-be-ex-wife, any more than she deserves." But at what price, Jack Welch, do you get peace here? Is it another $100 million? It might be worth that.
TOOBIN: Andy Serwer, thanks.
When we come back: You know that dream when you were in school naked? This is bigger.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TOOBIN: You're about to meet a schoolteacher whose baby girl just couldn't wait to go to school. In fact, she was born there Monday right in mom's classroom at Bear Creek Elementary School in Texas. You just can't make this stuff up.
Mom is Rhonda Schafer. And she joins us now from her home in Grapevine, Texas, along with her new daughter, Aurora.
Rhonda, you two look great. How you feeling?
RHONDA SCHAFER, MOTHER: Thank you. All things considered, we're feeling very well.
TOOBIN: OK, all things considered.
Well, Aurora was not due until November 6.
SCHAFER: Right.
TOOBIN: But Monday was a normal day until about noon. Tell us what happened then.
SCHAFER: Right. Right.
About noon, I started to think maybe this might be the day or maybe the next day. But I really didn't have any idea that it would be that very afternoon, and in just a couple of hours. About 1:00, I decided, "Well, you know, things are strong enough and often enough that I need to start writing things down." So I was ticking off on a sticky note the times that I was having contractions. And they were pretty uncomfortable.
About 2:00, I decided I needed to make some phone calls, because I thought, maybe in the next several hours, we would be having our baby. So, I called my husband on his cell phone about 2:15 and left him a voice mail, and said, "You might want to clear your schedule this evening, because things are happening and I'm getting ready to call my doctor."
TOOBIN: Now, you're a pretty cool customer, because this is baby No. 3 for you.
SCHAFER: Right. So I thought I knew what to look for.
(LAUGHTER)
TOOBIN: Right. OK.
SCHAFER: I called up to my doctor's office after that. And she said, "Well, if things are happening the way you say, you need to call over to labor and delivery and see what they want to do."
So, I made another phone call. And they told me that they needed to wait for a nurse. And some time in the process, I was cut off and dialed back. And this is all happening over about 10 minutes time, these phone calls I was making. And as I'm writing down the times that I'm having contractions, they're getting really close together, two, three minutes. And it was getting hard to talk through contractions.
And the labor-and-delivery nurse picked up. And I was describing to her what was going on when I felt my water break.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Right there in class?
SCHAFER: Right there in class.
The kids were playing at a table. My teacher's aide was helping me. She had the kids all at a table. And they were working together. And so they really had no idea what was going on.
(BABY CRYING)
SCHAFER: I'm so sorry. She's not being very patient.
TOOBIN: Oh, she's great. Keep going.
SCHAFER: Thank you. Thank you.
So, she was handling the kids. And, at that point, I told her -- she had been telling me all day: "Call the doctor. Call the doctor." And, at that point, I told her what was happening. And she got the school nurse. And they dialed 911. And I gave her the telephone. And she proceeded to talk to the labor-and-delivery nurse and relayed the instructions to the school nurse.
And there was also a kindergarten teacher that came over. Another teacher got the kids out of the room, so that they wouldn't be frightened or exposed to anything that they shouldn't be seeing. And she was born right on the floor at about just a little after 2:30.
TOOBIN: And the kids were how old? And how many of them were there, your class?
SCHAFER: Not very many. I teach a -- yes, I have a special education classroom. I teach 3- and 4-year-old children. And I just had five with me that day.
TOOBIN: OK.
And your husband, he didn't know any of this was going on, because you were trapped in voice mail, right?
SCHAFER: Yes, yes, something like that. I had left him the message. And then, when I was on the phone with the doctor, I hadn't had an opportunity to call him back and say things were happening. But he did have several messages on his cell phone, one saying, "Rhonda is having the baby," one saying, "Rhonda had the baby."
And I really didn't know until I got to the hospital. I was in the recovery room. And I was just picking up the phone to call him when he walked in and just had a look of shock on his face and concern. And he said that he gotten all the messages and ran out of work and came straight to the hospital. And he, unfortunately, missed...
TOOBIN: Missed the birth.
SCHAFER: ... the whole thing.
TOOBIN: How did Aurora do? How did she do on her first day of school?
SCHAFER: Well, that was my biggest concern, was how she would do. Her color didn't look good to me. I was very concerned, first of all, because it is not a very sterile environment.
And, second of all, she coughed a little bit and she didn't cry too much. Her eyes were open and she seemed alert, but her color wasn't good. And I was worried about her being cold. The paramedics arrived just shortly, just minutes after she was born. And they were able to warm her up. And by the time we got to the hospital, she was doing quite well. She was pink and wiggling and breathing. And everything was fine.
TOOBIN: Well, she is pink and wiggling and breathing right now. And we thank you for talking to us. And congratulations.
Still ahead: I have seen some pretty crazy scenes in court, but this one may take the cake.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TOOBIN: Even with all the courtroom stuff we have done today, we still have one story left. And it is something I have never seen.
A convicted killer was being sentenced to death in Dallas yesterday. And look at this. In a rage, he tosses a pitcher full of water right at the jury. You see defendants go nuts in court every once in a while, but going for the jury is pretty unusual. No one was hurt. And deputies triggered a stun belt to get the guy under control. Prosecutors said the courtroom outburst showed the jury made the right decision.
On Monday, you'll meet a man locked in the ultimate battle with his in-laws over the right to take his wife off of life support. You'll meet him right here with Connie on Monday night.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": more on the trial of Princess Diana's butler.
Connie Chung is back on Monday.
Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and have a great weekend.
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