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Eric Rudolph Captured

Aired May 31, 2003 - 09:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: They have, of course, been spearheading this campaign, this investigation, along with the Georgia Bureau of investigation and a host of other state, local, and federal agencies.
That is what we know at this point. We do not know if Eric Robert Rudolph is in custody, but that has been the indication that we have been given.

There is still a lot to talk about on the phone, and we have Duke Blackborn (ph) with the Georgia Department of Corrections. We also have Charles Stone, formerly with the Georgia Bureau of Investigations, he -- formerly the deputy director of the task force. We're also talking to Henry Schuster, a senior producer here at CNN who has been following this investigation for us, really, from the early days of it.

And Henry, I want to talk to you a little bit about -- and also bring in Charles Stone on this -- what drove this man, as far as we know?

HENRY SCHUSTER, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER: Well, it's very interesting. When he was a boy living in Florida, his father developed cancer, and the story, as was then told to Charles Stone and other investigators, was that his mother wanted to use an experimental treatment called Laetrile, which had been proven by the government to have absolutely no effect. They wanted to use that to treat Eric Robert Rudolph's father.

What happened was that they were not allowed to do that by the doctors. An order had gone out in the '70s from the FDA saying that they were not allowed to use that. So the theory was that, true or not, that this was where the Rudolph family had developed this hatred of the federal government, and that this was a festering sore in Eric Robert Rudolph.

And all of these places that he went along the way with his mother, out to Missouri, to the compound, the Christian Identity compound, when they moved to North Carolina and their next-door neighbors were survivalists, that all these reinforced this belief with Eric Robert Rudolph.

But real question is what -- if he did the bombings, what triggered him off? And that's a good question for Charles Stone.

COOPER: Well, Charles, do you have a sense of this man, of what drove him?

We probably lost Charles Stone. Let's go to Arthel.

ARTHEL NEVILLE, CNN ANCHOR: But we -- yes, Anderson, we do have someone else interesting on the phone with us now. We have -- actually, I understand Agent Stone is still on the line with us.

And Agent Stone, we are trying to find out if you have an idea of what drives or drove Eric Robert Rudolph.

CHARLES STONE, FORMER FBI AGENT: Thanks to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) evidence and some educated speculation, the Olympics in 1996, if you listen to the far right, they believed that the Olympics was going to be used as an excuse for the, in quotes, "new world order," end quote, to come into power. Eric had been exposed to the militia groups. Couple bits with his dislike of the federal government. I believe that's what actually triggered the course of actions that occurred later on.

SCHUSTER: Dr. Charles, it's Henry Schuster. Remind us also that one of the events that his former sister-in-law believed might have also helped trigger this was that the family house in Topton (ph), North Carolina, went up for sale before the Olympics.

And Eric almost became a rootless person, and that his father's ashes were buried at this house, and that he -- his former sister-in- law thought that he might be -- have been a little bit at sea at that point, a little bit odd. And that might have helped, if he indeed did the bombings, that that might have been one of triggers.

STONE: Yes, you're correct in what you stated. That, you know, that was the same information we had received. And his mother had moved away. She was no longer at home. Other family member had moved away. And I believe Eric probably perceived himself as being adrift.

NEVILLE: We have some new developments, actually, on this story. Alan Duke, what do you have for us?

ALAN DUKE, CNN WRITER: Well, I've just been told that there's going to be a news conference in Cherokee County, somewhere in the Murphy Andrews area, but around 1:00 today. That's from an FBI source working on the case in North Carolina, just told CNN that a few moments ago.

And while they're not ready to absolutely tell us that they think or that they know for sure that they got Eric Robert Rudolph, every indication that they're giving us, as far as telling us if we need have a crew at this news conference, and how serious the announcement that they might make would be, indicates to us that they do have something to say.

NEVILLE: OK, and we have actually on the phone now former FBI agent Jack Dalton, who was actually in charge of the task force in Atlanta and during this search for Eric Robert Rudolph.

And Mr. Dalton, good morning. You just heard the news that in fact there will be a news conference 1:00 Eastern time. Why wait?

JACK DALTON, FORMER FBI INVESTIGATOR: Well, I -- they have got to get all the right people together to have a news conference. It's not something they are going to do without all the represented parties available. And I, and I -- you know, I think that's going to be probably pretty significant announcement (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NEVILLE: But again, we were talking earlier to Charles Stone, a former GBI, Georgia Bureau Investigation, agent, who was saying that in fact the fingerprinting process could take an hour, it could take hours or it could take a day. Explain to us why there is such a difference in the time.

DALTON: Well, it depends on the availability of the technology. If they are part of the Avis (ph) system, they can certainly do it within minutes. If they have to go to the North Carolina Bureau of Investigation, it may take a little longer. If they have the fax the fingerprints, they have to be read and analyzed, and I assure you they're not going to make a mistake with these, and -- this time. So I would assume that there are a variety of factors at play here.

NEVILLE: And before...


NEVILLE: Sir, before I ask you about what your search entailed, I want to get your thoughts when you did hear the news that Eric Robert Rudolph might be in the custody of authorities.

DALTON: Well, actually, I kind of had a chill. I mean, it was obviously great to hear. But I was -- it was actually a surprise.

NEVILLE: Why surprised?

DALTON: Well, I didn't ever think that he was going to leave North Carolina or western North Carolina. He knew that area probably better than anybody. But I certainly did entertain the possibility that he might have -- might be dead.

NEVILLE: And talk about the search, what it entailed, and your involvement, sir.

DALTON: Well, my involvement started well before we who was responsible for the bombing, before we knew it was Eric Rudolph. I came to Atlanta from Chicago following the second bombing, the Sandy Springs abortion clinic.

And the focus for the first few months was trying to tie these bomb -- those two bombings, the Olympic Park and Sandy Springs, as well as the subsequent bombing, together. And then the -- when the discovery was made after the Birmingham bombing as to who the suspect was, we really went to North Carolina looking for what -- really looking for Eric Rudolph, but looking for whatever evidence that we could also find.

NEVILLE: And tell us about the evidence that in fact was linked to the first three bombings.

DALTON: Well, I'm not going to really get into a lot of detail about the evidence, because obviously we -- it's an ongoing investigation and we have a suspect. And I don't think it's appropriate.

But it was -- extensive amount of work was accomplished and done, and it was pretty astounding stuff, I think. And a lot of people need to take credit for a lot of good work.

SCHUSTER: Arthel, it's Henry. One of the things that Jack is not talking about, but what we can say, is that the -- there was evidence, there was a steel plating in the Olympic Park bombing and in the Sandy Springs bombing.

And they took this -- they tracked this back to a lot from a mill in North Carolina. And one of the ways that they were able to do that and figure the probability that it had come from that one place was, they sent it to the Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and they did a metallurgical analysis of it in their laboratories.

But there was also timers linking the second and the third bombings, same timers were used, Westclox (ph) were used in the second and third bombings, the bombing at the nightclub and also the bombing at the Sandy Springs Family Planning Clinic.

COOPER: Now, he has already been -- Eric Robert Rudolph was indicted already for the Birmingham clinic bombing?


COOPER: And indicted as well for the Olympic Park bombing, as well as for the Otherside bombing?

SCHUSTER: Correct. What he has not actually been indicted out in state court, and that would also have to be in state court, is murder charges for...

COOPER: So there are no murder charges at this point (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

SCHUSTER: Not exactly murder charges. Jack Dalton, maybe you can speak to that a little bit more, if you're still with us, about how the law that makes that distinction that Eric Robert Rudolph was indicted but not for murder. He was charged with using explosive devices that led to the death of Officer Sanderson in Birmingham Alice Hawthorne in Atlanta, but not actually charged with murder itself. Is that correct?

DALTON: That's correct this time. I suspect that may change, though, with finding him. I think there's going to be a -- probably a move by some state authorities to make sure that they get a piece of this, and may a statement about this.

SCHUSTER: And again, in Birmingham, there was an eyewitness who saw him fleeing from the scene, so that makes the Birmingham case, at least the reasoning that had him going to Birmingham first, was that that made that case stronger, and then if they were able to prove that case, then they could then tie him from the Birmingham bombing, they hoped to tie him from the Birmingham bombing to the Atlanta bombings.

DALTON: Correct. And when I left the bureau four years ago, that was the thinking. And I haven't been that close to the case in the last four years, but I assume that is still the thinking. That still seems to be the strongest link.

NEVILLE: And then Mr. Dalton, given that we are working with more than one jurisdiction here, how does that all play out in terms of, if, in fact, this is Rudolph, and in terms of the prosecution?

DALTON: Well, that's going to remain to be seen. They are going to have to line him up and make some very, very good decisions, and probably a lot is going to be based on what Henry was talking about, who's got the best case, and the strongest case, and then proceed from there. And depending on what happens on the prosecution for that case, then we'll roll through the other jurisdictions.

NEVILLE: I want to get back to something you said earlier, Mr. Dalton, that you thought that Rudolph might be dead. Why do you say that?

DALTON: Well, it's kind of -- I hated to -- almost hated to say that, because that just leads to so much speculation. But, you know, there -- for a long period of time, there seemed to be indications of interesting, unusual things happening in Andrew, around Andrew and Murphy. And those things seemed to dry up.

And that's one of the reasons the task force just was disbanded largely, was because there were not any significant leads of any sort.

[audio interrupt, covering this in caption file: and it kind of leads one to think, well, he either left the area or he's dead. I was never out of the mind that he left the area. He would not do that. He knew that area better than anybody and]

Also, one of the reasons I thought he could have possibly been dead was only because he could have gotten injured or sick in one of those caves, and who knows?

NEVILLE: And that you mentioned that he knew the area better than anyone. What did you have to do, you and your task force have to do, in order to try to understand the area better?

DALTON: Well, we did a number of things. We actually used the FBI's HRT team for a number of months to search for Eric Rudolph. We actually did grid searches of the Nantahala (ph) Forest, the mountains up there. And, you know, we covered hundreds of miles.

And in the words of one of the HRT members, this is some of the toughest terrain they had worked in. You could walk by the entrance to a cave within two or three feet of it, and not even see it because of the -- just the way the mountains, the undergrowth, the outcroppings of rocks. It's just an astoundingly difficult area to work in.

NEVILLE: Of course, we've been talking about the possibility that authorities might have in custody Eric Robert Rudolph. And we would like to say, he of course is on the FBI 10 most-wanted fugitive list.

But right now, we want to take a -- take time to go ahead and get in the investigation timeline, if you will. We're going to get a story now from John Pruitt, who is of CNN's affiliate station WSB.


JOHN PRUITT, WSB CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two people died as a result of the blast at Centennial Olympic Park in July of 1996. One woman died in the explosion, a Turkish photographer died of a heart attack trying to cover the event.

No one died in the January 1997 explosion at a Sandy Springs abortion clinic, but several people were injured.

One month later, in February, a bomb exploded outside the Otherside Lounge, a gay nightclub in Atlanta. No one died in that blast.

Eleven months later, on January 29, one person was killed, another injured, in a bombing at a Birmingham abortion clinic. Details surrounding that case emerged within days.

Eric Rudolph was named a suspect in that bombing after his pickup truck was seen leaving the clinic the morning of the bombing. On February 7, his truck was found in the woods near his last known address.

One week later, federal agents say they want to question Rudolph in connection with the three Atlanta bombings. The link, similar materials used in all four explosions.


COOPER: That was a look at some of the charges, some of the incidences that Eric Robert Rudolph is believed or has been indicted for, at least, indicted on several counts in the Birmingham clinic bombing, the Olympic Park bombing, as well as that club, the Otherside bombing, also here in Atlanta.

We are joined by a large number of people here. I'm talking right now to senior producer for CNN Henry Schuster, who has been following this investigation, really, since its early days.

You had told me about this secret room that authorities believed about...

SCHUSTER: Yes, well, we found out about it when a crew of ours went up to see Frank Sauer (ph), who is the man who bought Eric Rudolph's house in Topton, North Carolina. And Frank Sauer went down -- when Eric Rudolph was showing him -- and we've got a tiny bit of videotape about this, it's incidentally the only videotape that seems to be out there, the FBI has some, about Eric Rudolph, of pictures of Eric Rudolph -- and he takes Frank Sauer down into the basement. And when they're in the basement, then they go into this room with a sump pump.

And from what we learned subsequently, this room is where Eric -- It had Gro-Lites (ph) in it. They later found Gro-Lites when they searched his trailer -- when they searched not only his trailer but a storage shed in North Carolina.

This is where it is believed, and according to other people who have told us, that it's believed this is where Eric grew marijuana, one of the places where Eric grew marijuana. But it was also a hiding hole, it was a secret room. And for investigators like Charles Stone, that was a tipoff. Eric had a hiding place in the house. And they also thought Eric must have a hiding place out in the woods somewhere.

So this was not just a physical location, but it took them into his mind.

NEVILLE: We have now, Henry, if you let me jump in here, we have Deborah Rudolph, who is joining us on the phone right now, who is actually the ex-sister-in-law of Eric Robert Rudolph. We have been trying to get touch with Ms. Rudolph for a little bit now. And she is now joining us on the phone.

And Ms. Rudolph, first of all, what did you think when you heard that authorities might have in custody your ex-brother-in-law?

DEBORAH RUDOLPH, FORMER SISTER-IN-LAW OF ERIC ROBERT RUDOLPH: When you're involved in a case like this, your mind goes in all different directions. I never thought Eric was dead. I was hoping for the family's sake that he would be alive.

I think that I am happy for the families whose family members were killed or injured in all of the bombings. But my heart really goes out to Eric's family. And I know a lot of people wouldn't understand that, but I know the family firsthand, and it's -- they suffered through a lot when the investigation first started against Eric.

But, you know, they're going to have to go through it again, and it was very, very hard on the family to be involved, knowing that (UNINTELLIGIBLE), knowing that your son is accused of doing such a heinous act.

So, you know, my mind is -- you know, and I know -- I mean, my life hasn't been the same, and, you know, I was just married into the family.

NEVILLE: So who were you married to, Deborah?

RUDOLPH: I was married to Eric's older brother, one of his older brothers, Joel. NEVILLE: And tell me, what sort of family was this Rudolph family, or is?

RUDOLPH: Well, you know, a lot of people are under the false assumption that they're a, you know, an ignorant backwoods type of family. But they are not. They are very, you know, organized, very clean, very organic people, they're, you know, very literate. They're well read. Very smart, crafty people. All of the men in the family can build and work with their hands.

NEVILLE: Deborah...

SCHUSTER: They have different views on things, though.

NEVILLE: Yes, so that's what I want to get to about those views. What are you talking about there?

SCHUSTER: They have very significant views on race. They don't like the media, that's probably why they haven't spoken with the media during this whole thing.

NEVILLE: Different views on race, what does that mean, Deborah?

RUDOLPH: You know, we'd be sitting around for a family gathering, and the conversation would always go towards, you know, the Jews. And I think that's one of reasons that they've been against the media, because they feel that the Jews run the media. They run TV. They run our banks. They run our government.

Probably why they don't like authority. They're against, you know, any form of government or the form of government that we have in our country today.

Eric was pretty outspoken. He was more your revolutionary-type person. When I first got to know Eric, he would read these mercenary magazines, and that was his deal. He wanted to be a mercenary. And he would read all about it.

So they're -- you know, they are different. They, you know, they believe in the right to carry firearms, which a lot of people do, but they don't act out on those beliefs.

NEVILLE: Deborah, a couple of things, how many siblings does Eric have?

RUDOLPH: OK, he's got one sister and four -- OK -- there's (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

NEVILLE: But a fairly large family, is that right?

RUDOLPH: Yes, yes.


RUDOLPH: I think there are six of them. NEVILLE: Let me get back to this talk of race and anti-media, anti-authority, anti-establishment, if you will. How is it, do you believe, that Eric perhaps could have taken those sorts of conversations beyond the dinner table?

RUDOLPH: Well, I think -- you know, the authorities have asked me why an abortion clinic, OK, and why the Olympic Park. I think the Olympic Park more because, you know, he was against the "one world order." And I think all the nations coming together in peace during the Olympics, I think that's probably why the Olympics.

And then as far as the abortion clinic, he didn't believe in abortion. You know, he thinks people should be true to their (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

NEVILLE: But, I mean, that -- how did he take his beliefs and turn it into such radical behavior?

RUDOLPH: He has strong beliefs. It's not somebody that has an opinion. It's, you know -- he was very animated about his beliefs. He would hear things on TV or through the news or read about it, and he got very animated about it. He was very -- he would act out only in his home about it.

So, you know, it's possible he took that outside the home and acted on those beliefs.

NEVILLE: I know we just are getting this news just a couple of hours ago that authorities might have Eric Robert Rudolph, your former -- your ex-brother-in-law in custody this morning. Have you had a chance to speak to anyone in his family this morning?

RUDOLPH: No, I think I pretty well severed those ties, or they did, when I started to talking to the media. So I haven't really -- I haven't spoken to the family in probably three years.

COOPER: Yes, Deborah, if you could just hang on, we got a breaking information right now. Sources in Washington are confirming it is a match. The fingerprints are a match.

We can now say Eric Robert Rudolph is in custody in a sheriff's office in Cherokee County, North Carolina. That is where he was picked up in Murphy, North Carolina, yesterday. This news just coming into CNN. Sources have confirmed Eric Robert Rudolph has been caught.

NEVILLE: And Deborah, now that the confirmation is in, how do you feel now?

RUDOLPH: You know, I'm a little shook up. You know, I didn't think I would get this emotional. But it's -- you know, I know that it's -- that I will be a part of the trial. I've already testified on one grand jury, and I know that, you know, that I will be involved in this in some way. And it's -- you know, it's a little -- it makes you a little nervous.

NEVILLE: Why is that? Are you afraid of anything in particular? RUDOLPH: No. I never -- the only time I would really get nervous was when I would do a news program or, you know, a documentary or work with the media or the FBI. But I would just pray that I was doing the right thing.

And I -- you know, I feel that I have, and I feel like I've done it in a respectful way towards the family. But it just -- you know, just like when you first hear that, you know, a family member or someone that you're close to or that you knew, someone that was in your house, has done something crazy, somebody that's killed somebody or taken someone else's life, you know, it makes you a little weak in the knees.

COOPER: Deborah, this is Anderson Cooper in Atlanta with Arthel. How do you think the rest of the family is going to react? As you said, it's a large family, several brothers and sisters, or at least one sister. And we know one of Eric's brothers cut off his hand...


COOPER: ... and sent it in a videotape to authorities. What sort of reaction do you think they're going to have to this information that's just come in that he has in fact been caught?

RUDOLPH: I think they're going to be sorry. I think they're going to be disappointed. I think they'd rather have the mystery out there that Eric's out there somewhere. I don't think they ever believed that he was dead. You know, I think they're going to be, you know, disappointed that Eric was caught.


RUDOLPH: You know, just like any mother, you know, they -- you know, she never spoke to the media. She -- you know, I think she's defended Eric...

COOPER: We got -- we're going to...

RUDOLPH: ... throughout.

COOPER: I'm sorry, we're going to just break in here. Deborah, thank you for talking to us, appreciate it.

We're going to go to Kelli Arena now, justice correspondent, with some further breaking news -- Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, one source within the FBI has confirmed that there has been a fingerprint match, and that indeed the man in custody is Eric Rudolph. However, FBI headquarters is not confirming at this point, as you could well understand, Anderson. They want to make sure that all the information is completely accurate before they come out and make any official statement.

So we are still waiting for an official statement from the FBI. But there is one source within the FBI who has told me that there has indeed been a fingerprint match, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Kelli, obviously following that story. We are going to just join us whenever you have any other developments. Kelli, appreciate it.

We're going to go to Doug Jones, who's on the phone with us now. He's a former U.S. attorney in Alabama.

Mr. Jones, first of all, your thoughts upon hearing this news?

DOUG JONES, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, NORTHERN ALABAMA: Well, I tell you, it's exciting. I have felt all along that Eric Rudolph was alive. The office here, and law enforcement throughout the southeast, spent such an incredible length of time and intense efforts in trying to track him down. And as importantly, in building the cases that are sure to come now that he has been captured.

And it is very exciting. Patience pays off for us sometimes in these cases and sooner or later, you bring these people to the bar of justice. And that -- I'm happy that that's going to happen with Eric Rudolph.

COOPER: And in terms of what Eric Robert Rudolph will face now in terms of prosecution, where will he go first?

JONES: Well, that's -- you know, a few years ago, as this case has progressed and as the indictments were rendered, there was a lot of discussion in between Birmingham, between Atlanta and the Department of Justice, concerning the procedures that would be followed.

Obviously he's going to appear in court in the Western District of North Carolina for an identity hearing to make -- so that a court can confirm he is who he says he is.

A few years ago in these discussions, the decision had been made by the former administration that, based on the evidence that they had, that Eric Rudolph would come to Birmingham and face trial for a clinic bombing in Birmingham first. I am sure that that is going to be reviewed.

There are any number of possibilities. He could come to Birmingham or Atlanta, or they could try to try those cases together.

Again, those are going to be looked at. There's going to be a lot of activity within the Justice Department in the next few days.


JONES: Hopefully this process will start moving fairly quickly this week in the Western District of North Carolina.

COOPER: Well...

JONES: And he'll have to be brought back soon. So hopefully, I'm assuming he will probably still be brought to Birmingham. COOPER: Well, and as you well know, he's been indicted in Birmingham for that clinic bombing in which a police officer was killed, another person severely maimed. Would you seek the death penalty?

JONES: Well, I'm, you know, I am a former U.S. attorney. I am not involved in that process now. But I believe in this case, certainly, there's a process set up in which the Justice Department will review. I would assume that there will be a memo sent, and this case will be reviewed by the Justice Department, and the death penalty will be sought.

Ultimately, that decision will be made in Washington, D.C., but from this office's perspective, I feel quite certain that a death penalty permission will be sought in the case.

COOPER: Now, at this point, murder charges are not on the books. They've not been filed. Why is that? And what is the process for that coming under way?

JONES: You talking about state murder charges?


JONES: Yes. No, well, this case really, from an Alabama perspective, was really done as a joint federal-state investigation. We had state authorities, the Alabama Bureau of Investigation, just as the Georgia Bureau of Investigation did.

And it was decided fairly early on, that day, as a matter of fact, that the federal government had one death penalty statute available to it should he be apprehended and convicted. And so with the resources and the crossing state lines, it was felt that the federal government might be the best venue to take this case right now.

Always, state murder charges are possible down the road. Very similar to what happened in the Robert Vance -- Judge Robert Vance murder. You had federal charges brought. He was convicted. But then the both the state of Georgia and the state Alabama (UNINTELLIGIBLE) convicted Walter Leroy Moody in capital cases.

So that may come down the road. But I think at this point, you're going to look at the federal charges because of the interstate nature, and in Atlanta, the international nature.

COOPER: Mr. Jones, you're, of course, as you said, the former U.S. attorney in Alabama. Would you -- but you came back to prosecute the Birmingham church bombing case. Would you like to come back to be involved in this?

JONES: Oh, I would love to. I was telling somebody a minute ago, you just -- you know, one of your producers there, that it's the thing you want to just come and reenlist.

But they've got a very good team in place in Birmingham and in Georgia. They've got excellent prosecutors who have been working these cases since day one.

You know, I was on that scene very early, just by circumstances. But they're very good prosecutors. I feel very confident in the way the case has been built here in Birmingham. And I look forward to being able to just watch from the outside, knowing that I had some role in helping put that case together.

COOPER: Because I can hear it in your voice. It -- these things become personal for investigators, don't they?

JONES: Well, they do, they certainly do. And with all that you go through and all that you look and all the nuances that you have to track and the highs and lows, you know, there in July, just shortly after this bombing, you know, we felt like that we were on the verge of catching him, and so the adrenaline started pumping at that point.

You know, for me it was also a little bit different, just, you know, by -- it was just by happenstance I was in that area at the time.

I heard something on the radio about the explosion, went there, was one of the first people on the scene, and went -- came to a friend of mine, who was a Birmingham police officer, who was there, who had been there and helped move Emily and the body of a police officer was still there, and we had to keep him there. So we set that task force up.

So, yes, you get a personal stake in this. You get invested in cases like this. And you want so badly not only for the law enforcement, you have spent so much time and so much energy in this case, but for the families. You get to know Emily Lines (ph) and you get to know Felicia Sanderson. And you want this so much for them, just as you said, the 1963 church bombing, you get -- you know, it took 38 years for those cases to finally be brought to closure.

I'm glad that we're going to see some end to this case a heck of a lot sooner.


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