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Panel Discusses Marilyn Monroe

Aired August 5, 2003 - 21:00   ET


MARILYN MONROE (singing): ... rocks don't lose their shape, diamonds are a girl's best friend.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Marilyn Monroe died 41 years ago today. Her mysterious death still fascinates us, and the world will never forget her tragic beauty.

Tonight, remembering Marilyn Monroe, with her first husband, Jimmie Dougherty. He was 21 when he married his 16-year-old neighbor, Norma Jean Baker, in 1942.

Jeanne Carmen, Marilyn's closest friend in Hollywood, Mickey Rooney, who co-starred with Marilyn in one of her earliest films, 1950' "The Fireball," Cyd Charisse, the brilliant, beautiful dancer who co-starred in Marilyn's unfinished final film, 1962's "Something's Got to Give," and columnist and author James Bacon, first reporter on the scene when Marilyn's body was found, and so close to Marilyn, he was once her lover.

They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

KING: 41 years ago today, August 5, 1962, Marilyn Monroe passed away in unfortunate and still circumstances that bear questioning, and people believe may have been a suicide, may have been a murder, a lot of talk about that.

She still lives on, incredibly. And we've got fine panelists who knew her, and we're going to talk with them about her and take your phone calls as well.

We'll start in Auburn, Maine, with Jimmie Dougherty. He was Marilyn's first husband.

How did you meet Norma Jean?

JIMMIE DOUGHERTY, MARILYN'S FIRST HUSBAND: She used to come back to the house with her foster sister, Bebe Goddard (ph), and I'd take them home from school. I worked nights, and they'd sit there and wait until I woke up and got dressed, and then I'd drive them out to the suburbs of Van Nuys.

KING: How long did the marriage last? DOUGHERTY: We were married in June, and the marriage lasted four years, until September the 13th.

KING: What ended it?

DOUGHERTY: We had a -- She had to get a divorce to be a -- get a contract with 20th Century-Fox, I think it was. And she wanted to live together, she didn't want to separate. I told her no, I wanted a family, I wanted to have children and so forth. And she said OK.

KING: Yes, good-bye.

DOUGHERTY: But I heard I heard later that she was very...

KING: Mickey, how did you first meet Marilyn?

MICKEY ROONEY, CO-STAR AND FRIEND OF MARILYN: Well, I first met Norma Jean at Vaughn Monroe's house way out in Hollywood, and she arrived by helicopter. And she was slinky and this and that, and got out, and everybody went, Ooh, ooh. And the press were there, and so and so. And I knew that they wouldn't leave her alone, so finally I said, Norma Jean, come with me. I mean...

KING: She was still Norma Jean?

ROONEY: Norma Jean, yes. And I said, Will you come with me? And everybody thought, Oh, Mickey Rooney you know? And I said, Come on. She said, Where'll we go? Let's go bye. I said, Let's go to your place. So we went back to her apartment.

And I said -- she said, What do you want? I said, I think you should change your name. She said, What do you mean? I said, from Norma Jean Baker, it should be -- and the name came to me Marilyn, Marilyn Miller, was one of the big stars many years ago. And I said, Marilyn's your name.

And the phone rang, and I picked it up, and it was my buddy Vaughn Monroe. I mean...

KING: De Vanley (ph).

ROONEY: ... Monroe -- no, Monroe Manning...


ROONEY: -- no, Manning, a writer that I used to write with. And I said...

KING: So you gave her the name?

ROONEY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), yes, I did. So finally she said -- he said -- I said, I can't talk now, Monroe, but I'll call you back, if you don't mind, I don't mean to be rude. And so I hung up the phone.

And I had this strange look on my face. And Norma Jean said to me, What's the matter? I said, I was just talking to your last name. Your name should be Marilyn Monroe.

KING: Did she like it right away?

ROONEY: Yes, she did. She liked it.

KING: Jeannie, how did you first meet her?

JEANNE CARMEN, MARILYN'S BEST FRIEND: I met her in New York City. I was at the Actor's Studio. And I had -- one night, I had my scene to do, my first scene, so I was a little bit nervous. And I stopped in at the -- a bar next -- near the Actor's Studio.

I looked over and I thought, OK, shall I, you know, sit next to this girl over here, who had black hair and black horn-rimmed glasses, or with these guys over on the other side? Well, if I sit with them, I'm never going to be able to look at my script and get with the program.

So I sat down by her. And she said, Hi, I'm Norma. I said, I'm Jeanne. She said, Are you with the Actor's Studio? And I said yes. She said, Are you doing your scene tonight? And I said, Yes. She said, Do you want me to help you? And I said, Sure, why not?

So we ordered another wine. And -- well, I ordered my first, she ordered another.

KING: Did you hit it off with her right away?

CARMEN: Right away. Had no idea who it was. She was speaking in a normal voice like I'm speaking. She had a voice very much like mine, as a matter of fact. It was deep and very nice.

So then went to the bathroom. I said, I have to go, looked at my watch, said, I have to go. I'm going -- I don't want to be late for the -- my scene. So we went to the bathroom, I went to the johnny, and she stayed out there.

And I came back out, and I looked around, and I thought, Well, where did my friend go? There was a girl standing there with blonde hair that looked similar to Marilyn Monroe, and I thought, Oh, well.

So I walked -- started out the door, and she, in her Marilyn Monroe voice, said, Jeannie -- and I don't want to imitate it. But...

KING: Why?

CARMEN: ... I looked back, and I said, You're Marilyn Monroe? And she said, Yes.

And you know what? I think we became good friends because I found her and knew her before she -- I knew it was her.

KING: James, did you...

CARMEN: She didn't trust women, by the way.

KING: ... did you meet her as a columnist?

JAMES BACON, AT MARILYN'S HOUSE THE NIGHT SHE DIED: Yes, I -- a press agent by the name of Milt Stein, worked for Columbia Pictures, called me up one day, and he says, I'm working on this picture, "Ladies of the Chorus." He says, I got a beautiful blonde here. And we met on Gower (ph) Street at Naples Restaurant.

I look back, I've had thousands of interviews with stars. And I still think that was the most exciting one I ever had.

KING: Because?

BACON: Just Marilyn, just something about her. I knew right away she was going to become a big star.

KING: You did?

BACON: Oh, absolutely. God, yes.

KING: You mean, she had it all.

BACON: Oh, she had it, boy.

KING: Were you also attracted to her?

BACON: Very much, yes.

KING: And you wound up dating her.

BACON: Yes, I had a little fling with her for a couple months.

KING: What was that like?

BACON: Oho-ho, sensational.

KING: You don't forget that.

BACON: I'll say not.

CARMEN: No details.

KING: Did you meet her on a film?

CYD CHARISSE, CO-STARRED WITH MARILYN: Well, actually, we were doing this film, "Something's Got to Give," when I first met Marilyn. And she was charming and fun and nice and terrific.

KING: But the film never got finished.

CHARISSE: No, it never got finished.

KING: What happened?

CHARISSE: Many things.

KING: Like? CHARISSE: Well, for example, Marilyn was really never on time. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), never. And Dean Martin was our star. And, of course, she had a coach with her, Miss Strasberg, Paula, which was wonderful. And so she was with these people all the time, and usually she kept a lot of people waiting on the set because she was never quite ready, I mean, she didn't show up.

So that became one of the big, big problems with this particular film.

KING: A problem throughout her career, right?


KING: A problem throughout her career?

CHARISSE: Well, yes, I guess it was.

KING: James, what was it? Why was she always late?

BACON: Oh, she had such a unhappy childhood, I think, you know, she was in foster homes, everything, it made her very insecure.

CARMEN: Insecure is good.

BACON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the last of "The Misfits" talking to Clark Gable, and we're sitting there in a studio at Paramount. And he turned to me, he says, What's wrong with this girl? And I told him about her childhood, and then he understood, yes.

KING: She was a truly tragic figure, right?


KING: A truly...

We're going to take a break and come back with more. We'll be including your phone calls as we discuss the late Marilyn Monroe.

Don't go away.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): In the early months of 1962, Marilyn Monroe was set to go before the cameras for her 30th film.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five-oh-three. Five-oh-four.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She'd been absent from the screen for over a year, and the light comedy, "Something's Got to Give," would offer something of a comeback.

MONROE: Come on, you want to swim in (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But only eight weeks after production began, Marilyn Monroe was fired. Two months later, the star was found dead of an apparent sleeping pill overdose.




MONROE: Ooh, do you feel the breeze from the subway? Isn't it delicious?

TOM POSTON, ACTOR: Sort of cools the ankles, doesn't it? Well, what do you think would be fun to do now?

MONROE: I don't know, it's getting pretty late.

POSTON: It's not that late.

MONROE: The thing is, I have this big day tomorrow. I really have to get to sleep.

POSTON: What's the big day tomorrow?

MONROE: Tomorrow I'm on television. You remember, I told you about it, "The Dazzledent Hour."

Ooh! Here comes another one!


KING: One of the famous scenes in movie history, from "The Seven Year Itch." DiMaggio, he was married to her then. He went nuts over that, right, Jim?

ROONEY: Yes, he didn't like that.

BACON: He beat her up that night.

KING: Beat her up?

BACON: Absolutely, yes. Marilyn told me.

KING: Because of that scene.

BACON: Yes, because he was there with Walter Winchell, and the dress blew up, and it showed a little bit too much, and Joe just went berserk, Marilyn said, that night.

KING: Why do you think, Jimmie -- this for everyone on the panel, we'll start with you. Why do you think the public is still fascinated with her, Jimmie?

DOUGHERTY: Well, she was such a pure and innocent soul. The movie industry abused her and used her. And everybody has sympathy and empathy for her. I think that there has been so many stories told about her that are untrue, men who have imagined that they had a love life with her. And some people even think that they named her, which is not true. She named herself.

KING: You're saying Mickey Rooney didn't name her?

DOUGHERTY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- No. No, the day that I signed the divorce...


DOUGHERTY: That chatty Irishman doesn't know what he's talking about.



KING: Well, the question was, why are we still fascinated -- why do you think, Jeannie, we're still fascinated with her?

CARMEN: I think that she had this innocence, this sweetness, this vulnerability that made everybody just want to baby her and marry her and other things, of course.

KING: Yes, but it's been 41 years.

CARMEN: They're never going to give up, because you're never going to see her an older woman, you'll always going to see her as that little girl that is so vulnerable.

KING: Cyd, why do you think?

CHARISSE: Well, I think that she was loved by a lot of people, and people enjoyed watching her, and she was terrific.

KING: Yes, but why would there still be an interest? That's a was, why is this...

CHARISSE: Well, because she stays in your memory. You know, I don't think anyone ever knew anyone like Marilyn, really. I've never known another girl like Marilyn Monroe.

KING: Mickey?

ROONEY: I think the same way I think that she was a better actress than she thought she was, and I think that the people will remember her pictures and the talent that she had.

KING: But she wasn't regarded as a great talent. Critics...

ROONEY: Well, she didn't consider herself. But everybody that sought final cut of the pictures that she made, they liked what they saw.

CARMEN: And she's so beautiful.

KING: James, why do you think we're still... BACON: Oh, she's bigger today than when she was alive. This is about the 150th show I've done on Marilyn Monroe, believe it or not. And she's just...

KING: So what do you think it is?

BACON: Well, I think Jeannie summed it best, she was very sweet and vulnerable. And...

ROONEY: And gorgeous.

KING: ... kids today, you know, who are born after Marilyn died, identify with her for that. And that's why she's so popular today, yes.

KING: What was she like as a mate, as when you were going with her?

BACON: Oh, she was very sweet. Yes, very sexy girl.

KING: Smart?

BACON: Yes, Marilyn was -- you know, didn't graduate from high school, and it bothered her. I remember once when she found out I'd graduated from college, I was like God to her. And she asked me what she should read. And I gave her Dr. Mortimer Adler's list of great books, and I think she read them all.

She was just hungry for education, that's why she married Arthur Miller.

KING: Yes. Wasn't it annoying, Cyd, to have someone late all the time? I mean, didn't it bother you as a fellow performer?

CHARISSE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), we had a director, George Cukor, who was such a wonderful man and a wonderful director. And he'd worked with Marilyn before and liked her very, very much. And he would -- you know, when we were waiting for her, he would say, Now, look, this is the way she is, it's the way she's always worked. We must have patience, and we'll just work like she usually does.

KING: Didn't it get on your nerves?

CHARISSE: Well, what can you do?

KING: Mickey, you worked with her. What was she like to work with?

ROONEY: Well, she was fine when she worked with me.

KING: That was in "Fireball."

ROONEY: In "Fireball." Yes, and Borzegi (ph) directed the picture.

KING: But she was on time, she was... ROONEY: Oh, yes, everything was fine.

KING: So this, this (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

ROONEY: She had a small part. I think she had one line in the picture.

KING: Oh, so she was just starting.

ROONEY: That's right.

KING: All right, we're going to take a break and come back and start to include your phone calls.

By the way, the scenes that you are seeing are from the 20th Century-fox DEVELOPED box, "Marilyn Monroe: Diamond Collection." It includes a reconstructed version of the scenes that were shot along with five of her most popular films.

Jimmie Dougherty, Jeanne Carmen, Mickey Rooney, Cyd Charisse, and James Bacon are the guests. Your calls after this.



MONROE (singing): A kiss may be grand, but it won't pay the rental on your humble flat, or help you at the Automat. Men grow cold as girls grow old, and we all lose our charms in the end. But square- cut or pear-shaped, these rocks don't lose their shape. Diamonds are a girl's best friend.


KING: Wow. Marilyn Monroe, dead 41 years ago today.

Before we go to phone calls, Jeannie, the stories about her and the Kennedys, true?

CARMEN: True. Very true.

KING: Both of them?

CARMEN: Both of them.

KING: Had affairs with both Robert and John.


KING: Cared for both of them?

CARMEN: She cared -- she didn't love John. She loved Bobby. I mean, she -- with John, it was wanting to get to be first lady. With Bobby, he was adorable. He was sweet. He was kind. He was nice. And he was playful. She loved him.

KING: Do you buy any of the rumors that they were somehow associated with her passing?


KING: What do you think?

CARMEN: Well, I really can't say what I think, because Peter Lawford told me the story, and I believed him, even though he was drunk as a skunk. Johnny Roselli told me the same story. I had to leave town for 18 years, you know.

KING: But they're all, they're all dead now.

CARMEN: They are all dead, but they didn't...

KING: Do you think it was a suicide?

CARMEN: No. Absolutely, positively not.

KING: You think she was -- John, James?

BACON: I think it was accidental suicide. She took one pill and one drink too many.

KING: Mickey?

ROONEY: I think it was an accidental suicide.

KING: Accident, didn't mean to kill herself.

ROONEY: Yes. No.

KING: Cyd?

CHARISSE: I believe the same thing, it was accidental.

KING: Jimmie...

CARMEN: But she called me for, she called me for sleeping pills, so she had -- she didn't have enough sleeping pills to kill herself that night. I couldn't go over because I was hammered.

KING: Jimmie, what do you think?

DOUGHERTY: I've been involved in situations similar to this when I was a police officer, where they come home and they've sleeping pills, and they forget how many they've taken. And eventually they take too many. In one case I'm speaking of, the young girl worked at Universal, and she was calling to her son to bring her another pill. And the boy was dumping them out in the toilet and giving her the empty capsules.

And I asked her if she was trying to commit suicide, she said no, she just had to get some sleep because she had to go to work.


KING: So you think it was accidental. You think it was accidental.

DOUGHERTY: Absolutely. She had done it before.

KING: All right, let's go to some calls.


KING: Leesburg, Florida. Hello.

CALLER: Good evening, Larry.


CALLER: My question is for Mr. Bacon.

KING: Yes.

CALLER: Mr. Bacon, is there any truth at all to Bobby Kennedy being there the night that she died?

BACON: I don't believe it, myself, personally. I've heard that story. But I talked to Lawford right after she died, and he said Bobby was up north, some guy's farm up there, yes.

KING: You were the first one on the scene?


KING: How did you know about it?

BACON: Well, I -- one of our photographers had a police radio in his car.

KING: You were with the A.P.?

BACON: I was with the A.P. And he called me about 2:00 in the morning, says, The cops are up at Marilyn Monroe's house, she's apparently committed suicide. I was there in about 15 minutes, because I knew where she lived. I'd been there about five days before.

And I got there, and the cop was on the door, and he says, Who are you? And I says, I'm from the coroner's office. And he waved me in. And I walked in, and there was Marilyn, sprawled out on the bed.

KING: You saw the body.

BACON: Yes, yes.

KING: All right, having dated her, were you taking it personally?

BACON: Yes, I felt very sad, because -- especially when they brought her out to the coroner's station wagon, they put a cheap cotton blanket over her. And you know, reporters are companions of disaster. But when I saw her come out with that cheap blanket on her, I wiped away a tear, I really did. I felt very sad.

KING: Frazier, hello.

CALLER: Good evening, Larry, how are you doing?

KING: Hi. Fine.

CALLER: Is the Mick there, please?

KING: Yes, Mickey can hear you.

CALLER: Yes, what would you compare Marilyn Monroe's acting ability to Judy Garland? And, by the way, we share the same birthday on September 23. Happy birthday.

ROONEY: Thank you. But I -- that's hard to compare the two. Judy Garland was a different type of entertainer. She was a dancer, a singer, and an incurable romantic. And...

KING: Both tragic, though.

ROONEY: Yes, she -- but she was a wonderful girl, and Marilyn was a wonderful girl too.

KING: Selma, Alabama, hello.

CALLER: Selma, California.

KING: Selma, California, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

CALLER: Hi. Larry, I was watching an interview with Jerry Lewis the other night, and he was stating that Marilyn couldn't have been with the Kennedy brothers because he was -- she was with him. Can the panel comment on that?

KING: That wasn't on this show, but I heard -- I read somewhere that he said that. Anyone want to comment? Jeanne?

BACON: I can't imagine.

CARMEN: No, I -- my brother told me that, and we were all laughing.

KING: Did she ever date Jerry Lewis?

CARMEN: No, no.

DOUGHERTY: I know nothing about it.

CARMEN: Not that I know of.

KING: Cyd, did you know -- did she ever mention Jerry Lewis to you?


BACON: Never.

KING: The Bronx, New York. Hello.

CALLER: Oh, hello?


CALLER: My question is for James Dougherty.

KING: Go ahead.

CALLER: I would like to know if he knows how her sister, Bernice, and her niece are doing these days. No one ever mentions them.

KING: Jimmie?

DOUGHERTY: Bernice has passed away last year from too many cigarettes. She -- I think it was last year, the year before last. She just smoked herself to death.

KING: And her niece?

DOUGHERTY: Her niece? Bernice. That was her name, Bebe.

KING: Oh, no, but I think the caller mentioned that she had a niece, too, Marilyn had a niece.

DOUGHERTY: I don't know the niece.

KING: No? OK, does anyone know about her niece?

ROONEY: I don't know.


Stanley, Louisiana. Hello.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Yes, go ahead.

CALLER: OK, this is a two-part question for her best friend, Jeanne. Jeannie, my question is, did she ever ask you for any advice you may have on her relationships with Bobby and John F. Kennedy? And my second question being, did you ever try to get her any kind of help for her problem with pills, or did you know it was that severe?

CARMEN: She did ask me many times about all kinds of things, and I tried to advise her. I even tried to advise her the night before she started -- you know, well, before she got killed, or died, or whatever, you know, comes out. She wouldn't listen, she was very stubborn.

For the first time in my life I heard her say, I heard her say, I'm Marilyn Monroe, and I will talk tomorrow morning. I never heard her say that before, because she was so insecure that she absolutely would not talk about that kind of thing. She would -- she didn't, she didn't think she was beautiful, she didn't think she was grand. She was scared to death...

KING: Help me with something, Jeanne...

CARMEN: ... so she just didn't -- did -- would never have said anything like that.

KING: Jeannie, you think she was murdered?

CARMEN: I do. Yes, I definitely do. She called me that night for sleeping pills. I couldn't go over.

KING: The police said -- what's the police version? What's the final autopsy?

BACON: The coroner's version was it was accidental suicide, and I think that some of the police thought that too, yes.

KING: Was that the Yamaguchi?


BACON: Yamaguchi, yes, he was the coroner in those days. And he...

KING: We'll be...

BACON: ... listened to -- I saw the death report, and it said accidental suicide.

KING: We'll be right back, reintroduce the panel, go to more calls on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

Tomorrow night, Kobe appears in court in Colorado. We'll talk about it with our legal panel tomorrow evening.

Don't go away.


MONROE: Did you see this fella I'm with?


MONROE: What's he look like?

GRABLE: Very nice for a one-eyed man.

MONROE: Is that is all he's got?

LAUREN BACALL: What do you think he's got that patch on for?

MONROE: I didn't know it was a patch. I thought somebody might have belted him. BACALL: Honestly, Pola, why can't you keep those cheaters on long enough to see who you're with, anyway?

MONROE: No, no, I'm not going to take a chance like that. You know what they say about girls who wear glasses.

GRABLE: Maybe somebody shot him in the eye.

MONROE: He sounds just wonderful. And I was naturally curious to know what he looked like.

GRABLE: Who is he?

MONROE: I don't know that either. But he hasn't mentioned anything under a million dollars yet.





KING: We're discussing the late Marilyn Monroe, dead 41 years ago today.

Our panel are in Maine, Jimmie Dougherty, Marilyn Monroe's first husband and author of a book, "To Norma Jean, With Love, Jimmie."

Here in Los Angeles is Jeanne Carmen, Marilyn Monroe's best friend.

Also in L.A., Mickey Rooney, a good friend of Marilyn's who starred with her in 1950's "The Fireball."

Cyd Charisse who co-starred with Marilyn in the 1962 film "Something's Got to Give." You never saw it because it never gave. It was the unfinished final film of the her life.

And James Bacon, columnist, author, good friend of Marilyn's, was the first reporter on the scene the morning her body was found.

Before we go back to the calls, you were just telling me, Cyd, that she wanted to start that film over?, right?

CHARISSE: Yes, she did.

Fox had stopped shooting and she called me on the telephone and she said, Cyd, would you be willing to go ahead with this if I could put it together? And I said, of course, Marilyn. Whatever you want to do is OK with me. And that's the last of it.

KING: Where were you when she died? How did you hear about it?

CHARISSE: Well, she had a P.R. woman called Pat (ph) -- and we had the same P.R. And she called me almost immediately to tell me about it.

KING: The enormous shock. Where were you, Mickey?

ROONEY: Well, I was working, I think and then I heard about and I felt just terrible.

KING: Jim, you were there. Where did you hear about it, Jeanne?

CARMEN: I was in bed. We were supposed to go golfing that morning, She had bought me three golf clubs and we were going to Monterey.

KING: Who called you?

CARMEN: Johnny Roselli (ph). So when I heard -- I heard the phone ring and I thought it was Marilyn. And it turned out that I was getting the bad news.

KING: How did you find out, Jimmie?

DOUGHERTY: Jack Clemens (ph) called me. ,He was at the scene and called me, told me that Marilyn had passed away from a possibly an overdose of sleeping pills. And -- excuse me -- anyhow, he didn't say that she committed suicide. He didn't say there was any evidence of murder. He just said looked like an apparent accidental overdose.

KING: Tampa, Florida -- we go back to calls -- hello.

CALLER: Yes, Larry. My question for the panel is actually two parts regarding Joe DiMaggio. First, is it true the rumor that he often left flowers at her grave site every year up until his death? And also, was it true that they were actually might be getting back together before her death?

KING: Two stories that have been constantly printed -- James.

BACON: Yes, Joe DiMaggio used to put a rose on Marilyn's grave site -- or rather, crypt site, every day.

KING: Every day?

BACON: Every day, yes. Yes.

KING: Were they going to get back together?

BACON: Yes, in fact, Marilyn and Joe were going to get remarried, believe it or not, yes.

KING: Even though that was a very sad marriage for her. I mean, he hit her -- two different temperaments.

BACON: That's right and Joe, you know, spent all his time watching sports on television, which Marilyn didn't like.

KING: Jeanne, did you know that?

CARMEN: What? That...

KING: That she was going to remarry Joe.

CARMEN: No, he -- I don't think she was, to tell you the truth. The word was out, but she said she could not go through that again. I mean, he was really a not a nice husband.

KING: Hollywood, California, hello.

CALLER: Thank you for taking my call, Larry. It's a two-part question. First of all, I heard a rumor that Jimmie and Robert Mitchum had a fight over Marilyn when she -- while she was still Norma and she was working with Robert at Lockheed in Burbank. Second question -- second part, what about the rumors that the Strasbergs, Lee and his wife, had manipulated her into leaving her estate to them?

KING: First, Jimmie, did you ever fight with Robert Mitchum over Norma Jean?

DOUGHERTY: No. If I ever fought with Robert Mitchum, he would have whipped my butt. He was an ex-fighter. He and I were very good friends. And Larry, there is a film coming out called "Marilyn's Men" that's going to clear up a lot of these problems, the director, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- it's produced by Vallhall Productions (ph) and this should be out in December. And a lot of the misconceptions are going to be cleared up in the movie.

KING: By the way, Marilyn Monroe first posed for photographer Andre Deneas, by the way, and many of these pictures that we're going to be seeing are available in a special coffee table book of his Monroe photography entitled "Marilyn."

Birdsboro, Pennsylvania.



CALLER: Love the show, Mr. King.

KING: Thank you.

CALLER: I'm a huge Dean Martin fan and I understood that when they were making that last film, "Something's Got to Give," that she had been fired and he said he had actress approval and they wanted to bring in lee Remick and he said he wouldn't continue the picture without Marilyn and I wondered how she felt about that and how she felt about Dean and what their relationship was like?

KING: Cyd Charisse.

CHARISSE: Well, Dean Martin was trying to do a movie at Columbia. They were waiting for him to do a movie at Columbia and he was very upset about all this waiting and waiting and waiting and one moment it came along and it was last straw. She didn't show up and she didn't show up and finally Dean said, That's it, and he walked. And that was when 20th Century stopped...

KING: Was Lee Remick supposed to come in to the movie?

CHARISSE: Well, that was later, after -- we hadn't even stopped the picture at that point.

KING: Oh. But they were thinking about Lee Remick?

CHARISSE: I don't know.

KING: OK. Newport Beach, California.

CALLER: Hi, Larry, how have you?

KING: Hi. Fine.

CALLER: Love your show. Honored, honored to see your panel. And this goes to Jeanne Carmen, because Jeanne, we know each other and I know you know the answer to this. How many times was Marilyn Monroe pregnant?and if she had child, do you think she would have been a wonderful mother? And by the way, you look gorgeous!

CARMEN: Thank you.

I don't know if she was ever pregnant. She did tell me one time when we were hammered that she had had a baby but we used to say a lot of ridiculous things, so I don't know whether or not she ever had a baby or not.

KING: You use the term hammered. Did she drink a lot?

CARMEN: A lot. A lot.


KING: She did, Jim?


CARMEN: We drank champagne. I was never on champagne until I met Marilyn and then we were -- every time Joe would leave the house I would be over there.

KING: Was she alcoholic?


ROONEY: Yes, she was.


KING: Louisville, Kentucky, hello.

CALLER: Hi, What an honor to speak with you, Mr. King, and with your panel. My question -- because I always get absorbed whenever I see something concerning Marilyn Monroe and her memory televised or in print, My question is, the theories that perhaps her first husband, Jimmie, and her good friend Jeanne Carmen and the rest of the panel might have concerning her famous diary. What happened to it? Did anybody ever see it? Is it confirmed that it ever actually existed?

KING: All right. What do we know about it -- Jimmie.

DOUGHERTY: I have an opinion. It's a personal opinion about it. The person that probably found that diary was written in longhand and Norma Jean, in all her letters to me, she printed. And when they found out she printed, instead of longhand, this so-called diary disappeared.

KING: What do you know about it, Jeanne?

CARMEN: I did see the diary, yes.

KING: You saw it?

CARMEN: It was a red diary. I saw it.

KING: Was it printed or written?

CARMEN: The one I saw was written. And I saw it the day that Bobby came to see her. She was in the shower and I opened the door for Bobby and let him in and he was sitting there and he looked -- picked up this diary and looked at it and he got extremely angry. And when she came out, he threw it against the wall and he said, Get rid of this. And all she was...

KING: He was attorney general then?

CARMEN: Yes. All she was really writing was little things that they said so that she could remember and be part of the mix.

KING: Of course, and he didn't ever want that to come out.

CARMEN: Exactly.

KING: Did you know she had a relationship with him?

BACON: She told me the only time she saw Bobby was when he tried to talk her out of seeing JFK.

KING: So you didn't know about her involvement with -- were you shocked to see Bobby at the door?

CARMEN: Yes, very shocked. Very shocked. Because I lived right -- our apartments were attached, so I was constantly going over and...

KING: Did you hear all these stories, Mickey?


ROONEY: It's tough to believe, you know.

KING: It's hard to believe. ROONEY: Yes, it is.

KING: The attorney general of the United States is...

CARMEN: Because we -- I was right there all of the time. That's why I saw things that nobody else saw.


KING: We'll take a break and be back with more...



MONROE: Come on the water is so refreshing. You know after you finish doing, you know.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming honey, be right there.






KING: That's from the DVD collection from 20th Century Fox, Marilyn Monroe's Diamond Collection, collection of her more popular films. By the way, talking about Mickey Rooney, young people may not be aware but Lawrence Olivier considered Mickey Rooney the greatest American actor ever.

Denver, Colorado, hello.

CALLER: Hello. I just wonders, this is for Jeanne Carmen, and I wondered if Marilyn was close with the rat pack like stated earlier, you know, Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis.

KING: Were they pals?

CARMEN: No, they were not pals. She knew them all individually, but no they were not pals.

KING: She dated Sinatra, didn't she?

CARMEN: Yes, she did date him after I did.

KING: You dated him too?

CARMEN: Are you kidding? Seven years. KING: You weren't the only one during the seven, though?

CARMEN: Well. But I was the best one.

KING: Golden, Colorado, hello.

CALLER: Good evening, Larry. I would like to ask the panel if Marilyn were still alive, how long would she -- would her career have lasted and also who was her favorite co-star?

KING: Cyd, how long would her career have lasted?

CHARISSE: My goodness, depends on the life she'd have led and what she would did she do with her own life.

KING: How old would she be?

CARMEN: She would be 77. She's four years older than I am and yesterday I was 73.


KING: You're 73?


KING: Would she have lasted a long time, Mic

ROONEY: It's hard to say, because we'll all never know.

KING: I know. Hypothetical. Do you think she would have -- do you think she would have played roles older?


ROONEY: With here agent, I don't know.

BACON: I doubt it. Marilyn once told me she would never play grandma parts.

CARMEN: I think she would have stopped that nonsensical wave speaking because I know that she could speak the way I speak.

KING: That was phony?

CARMEN: Yes. I think she would have graduated to really, really good stuff.

ROONEY: I got through making a picture, and it was grampa Mickey and she played an agent and...

KING: Who, Marilyn?

ROONEY: No, Jan, my wife.

KING: What does it have to do with Marilyn? ROONEY: No, I'm saying, these are the pictures that we've made and I'm proud of that for Jan. But sorry for poor Marilyn, we'll never know.

KING: Columbus, Georgia, hello.

CALLER: This guy has a question for Jeanne Carmen and two-part question. No. 1, you are the only one on the panel whole believes she was murdered and I believe that. And I read Jimmy Haspill's (ph) book and I believe his scenario. And I wondered if you believed that they found the pills lodged up her esophagus after she was dead, they never reach her stomach?

And No. 2 , an ambulance driver who said he saw the doctor break a needle on her ribs, then inject her and then she died. The ambulance driver said she was alive when he got there.

KING: You know story -- Jean.

CARMEN: I know that story and I know another story I can't talk about that is probably more accurate.

KING: Jim Bacon saw the body, she was dead right?

BACON: She was very dead when I looked at her, yes.

CARMEN: What time was that?

BACON: About 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning.

KING: OK, Apple Valley, Massachusetts, hello.

Apple Valley, Massachusetts, hello.

CALLER: It's Apple Valley, Minnesota.

KING: I'm sorry, gave me the wrong state. Go ahead.

CALLER: That's OK. My question for Jeanne.

Jeanne, in your conversations with Ms. Monroe, did she ever indicate to you that she felt perhaps her career was maybe on the wane and that she maybe perhaps was quite depressed over that?

CARMEN: Maybe earlier on, but at this point right when she died, she was making a comeback. She never looked more gorgeous. She'd been studying acting. And here acting was never better. And she absolutely was not thinking of suicide. She was going with me to play golf the next day.

KING: As we -- you been insistent on that. As we go to break -- could have been accidental?

CARMEN: That's possible.

KING: As we go to break, here is Marilyn Monroe doing something she loved doing, entertaining troops in Korea. Marilyn Monroe as we go to break entertaining troops in Korea. Watch.





KING: Probably her best film. "Some Like It Hot."

New York City, hello?

CALLER: Hi. I would like to know, what religion did Marilyn Monroe follow?

CARMEN: What religion? I don't think she had a religion. We never talked religion.

KING: Did she ever go to church or anything?

CARMEN: Never.

BACON: Never.

KING: Buffalo, New York, hello.

CALLER: Yes, first of all, I would like to say I'm a huge fan of Marilyn Monroe and how sad for Jeanne that she passed away on her birthday, because I firmly believe that she passed away a day earlier and there was a big conspiracy involved.

Also, I would like to know if anything is being done about the grand jury indictment? About 10, 11 years ago, I read something in the paper that they were investigating the possible murder, and I wonder if anybody on the panel knows anything about it?

KING: Was anyone ever indicted?

BACON: Not that I know of.

CHARISSE: No. No. They still talk about it, but everybody's dead. So -- talking is all they are going to be able to do.

KING: Toronto, Canada, hello.

CALLER: Yes, hi, Larry. This is for anyone, I guess, on the panel. With her music, what kind of music did she like? Did she like country? Did she like rock 'n' roll? And did she have a favorite artist, a favorite singer?

CARMEN: I wouldn't know, really.

CHARISSE: Frank Sinatra was her favorite singer.

BACON: Frank Sinatra, yes, yes, yes. CARMEN: We loved Frank's singing.

KING: Are there any albums other than film albums of Marilyn? Did Marilyn ever do an album, songs?

BACON: No, I don't think so.

KING: To Smith's Parish, Bermuda. Hello.

CALLER: Yes, good evening.


CALLER: This is for the panel. As far as her time of death, what did they say? What time did she die? Because it was a while before they found her body.

KING: James, you were there?

BACON: Well, I remember I was called on the scene about 2:00 on a Sunday morning, yes, and she had been dead for some time before that, yeah.

KING: What did the final report say her time of death was?

BACON: I think something like around midnight.

KING: Jimmie Dougherty, do you know?

DOUGHERTY: What time she died?

KING: Yeah.

DOUGHERTY: It was approximately 1:30.

KING: 1:30 in the morning?


KING: Napa, California, hello.

CALLER: Yes, good evening, thank you for taking my call, Larry. My question is for Jeanne. And I wanted to preface it by saying I was with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin two weeks before Marilyn died, and I wanted to ask Jeanne if she was aware that Marilyn was there up at Cal Neva, two weeks, this is approximately July 24?

CARMEN: Yes, I was aware, and I was supposed to be there but I got a cold and didn't really feel like going.

KING: Were they entertaining there?

CARMEN: Yes, they were.

KING: And she was up watching them?

CARMEN: She was.

KING: Deridder, Louisiana, hello.

CALLER: Yes, good evening, and thank you for taking my call.

KING: Sure.

CALLER: And this call is also to Miss Jeanne, and I'm wondering, Miss Jeanne, if you approximately know if and at what time did the maid of Marilyn's house let her last gentleman caller in that night?


KING: What time did a maid let her last gentleman caller in that night? Was there a gentleman caller?

CARMEN: Well, since I wasn't there, I have no clue. But I don't remember any gentleman callers that were supposed to come. You and I talked a few times, but...

KING: People will ever know the true story if there is one?

CARMEN: No, never. We'll never know.

KING: Everybody's gone now.

CARMEN: That's right.

KING: Did she ever tell you?

BACON: No, no.

KING: I mean, nothing -- you suspect nothing in this, right?

Mickey, no reason?

ROONEY: Nothing.

KING: No reason. Cyd?


KING: And Jimmy, you have your questions, right?

DOUGHERTY: Beg your pardon?

KING: You think we'll ever know the whole story?

DOUGHERTY: I think we know the whole story. I think that she died of an accidental overdose of narcotics and I don't think anybody killed her or I don't think her doctor was there breaking her rib, putting a needle in it. I think these are all fabrications of people's imagination, and it's unfortunate, because she had people there before when she took overdoses, and someone was there to take care of her. So, there was no one there this time and she passed away. KING: Jim, she'll be remembered into the next generation?

BACON: Oh, heavens, yes. She seems to get bigger every day. It's just amazing.

CARMEN: Such beauty, how can you forget it?

BACON: The secret in this business is to die young.


ROONEY: ... when my wife went to school with her in Van Nuys.

KING: Thank you all very much. Jimmy Dougherty, Jeanne Carmen, Mickey Rooney, Cyd Charisse, married 55 years to Tony Martin. It will never last. And columnist and author James Bacon. We'll come back in a minute and tell you about tomorrow night. Don't go away.


KING: Kobe Bryant makes his first court appearance tomorrow in Colorado in connection with the charges against him. You'll see the court appearance on CNN tomorrow at about 6:00 Eastern. And we'll do a whole show dealing with that tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE.

Right now it's time to turn our attention to New York, where sitting at his famed anchor desk is -- there he is -- the smiling, affable, congenial host of "NEWSNIGHT," the one and only, Aaron "The Bee" Brown.


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