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NEWS FROM CNN
Hot Topics With Kellyanne Conway, Katrina Vanden Heuvel
Aired November 3, 2003 - 12:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: October was a very deadly month for U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. This past weekend, the situation got even worse. Only within the past half-hour or so the president of the United States spoke out about the recent casualties.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have got a great United States military. And some of the best have fallen in service to our fellow Americans. We mourn every loss. We honor every name. We grieve with every family. And we will always be grateful that liberty has found such brave defenders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The president of the United States speaking in Birmingham, Alabama just a little while ago.
Let's pick up where the president left off. Time now for our "Hot Topics" segment. Today's topic: the tragic loss of more American lives in Iraq. How is public opinion changing, if it in fact is changing, in the wake of the weekend disaster? How is that affecting the president's political future?
Joining us now from New York, two guests, the Republican pollster, Kellyanne Conway and Katrina Vanden Heuvel. She's the editor of "The Nation" magazine. Thanks so much for joining us.
Kellyanne, what about the political cost the president may have to pay if this near daily death toll in Iraq continues?
KELLYANNE CONWAY, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: It seems that it is a cost that this president is willing to pay. He has based his presidency on the continuing liberation and democratization of Iraq and that region. He has made very clear -- he's asked Congress for the money, they've backed it up on a margin of three to one, despite all the criticism. And this is some of the early bellwether.
See, the fact is that those who would criticize the administration are disrespecting the age old adage to allow partisanship to stop at the water's edge. And I am very concerned that some of the president's critics haven't even paused for that moment of silence in respect to the newly dead.
The fact is that the administration does need to be more visible and vocal and consistent in explaining to the American people that this is now going to be a way of life for the short term, that we are going to have to be more vigilant. And this is something -- it's not like a grocery list, Wolf. You don't just put it down and then cross it off when you've completed the task.
BLITZER: What I hear, Katrina -- what I hear Kellyanne saying is that critics like you should stop being so critical.
KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, EDITOR, "THE NATION": On this tragic day, Wolf, I think a majority of Americans believe that the human and financial costs of this military occupation are growing too high, and that this is a president who has failed to level with the American people, with the troops, about why we went to war, and the realities on the ground. We have seen a growing credibility gap, that even Senator John McCain and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld have pointed out. This administration seems to live in a la-la land in so many ways that are detrimental to the troops and citizens of this country.
Last week, at his first press conference in many, many, many months, President Bush was asked a critical question for the American people. Would he talk about reducing American troops come next year? His reply was, that it is a trick question.
That is a fundamental question this nation faces. And we need a defined exit strategy so that the Iraqis will be more secure and this country will be more secure. Because military occupation like this breeds resistance that we're seeing, and it is a terrible cost to the troops, the brave men and women on the ground, who deserve better, as do the citizens, who should be leveled with.
BLITZER: All right. Kellyanne, go ahead.
CONWAY: Except people disagree with you. A majority of the American people disagree with that. And I would appreciate, in the future, if you are going to invoke others who agree with that type of position, that you invoke them by name, because you could probably name the people on the left who feel this way.
Don't say a majority of the people do, because one place where the president's numbers have remained strong, including in the CNN polling, is on the matter of trusting him -- very important word, Katrina -- trusting him to do the right thing in Iraq. And we can't go blip by blip. I mean, these approval ratings shouldn't be looked upon as a cardiogram because the larger task is much more important than any one man's presidency.
VANDEN HEUVEL: But Kellyanne, I mean, this administration seems out of touch. There is definitely a credibility gap between the reality on the ground and the rhetoric. You noticed that President Bush yesterday was not discussing the casualties, because he can no longer blame the media.
The negativism that he attributes to the media is one that citizens from New Hampshire to Wisconsin to Ohio now feel very strongly. They want to know why we went to war and why we are paying these costs. But, most important, Kellyanne, it is not just the left, as you say so scornfully. It is the nation, which needs an exit strategy, which needs to be leveled with by an administration that mislead us into war and its failed post-war occupation plans of putting men and women under fire.
CONWAY: You keep saying that.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Do not tell me that this administration failed to plan for an occupation. Every piece of evidence now coming out from "The Washington Post" to other local papers show what Donald Rumsfeld and the neo-con cabal that hijacked this country's foreign policy have done to its citizens.
CONWAY: Oh, Katrina, are you done yet? I mean, the level of vitriol. I mean, you people often look...
VANDEN HEUVEL: It is anger about what has been done to our country.
BLITZER: Hold on. Katrina, let Kellyanne respond.
CONWAY: Well, I am not sure I will respond to that level, or, as it is, that nadir of sort of volume and tone, but I will say that we continually hear Katrina and others like her, who I know are intelligent, patriotic Americans, just saying as a matter of course that the president lied, that he mislead people into war. And I just need to know what the evidence of that is, because it is a very serious charge, Katrina.
Are you saying that this president, who took us to necessarily, had to put on his domestic agenda the economic growth at the time? He's risked his entire presidency on this. So what is the evidence that he entered into war to result in a loss of American and international lives, for what, because it is fun? I mean, what is your evidence that he mislead us?
What is it? I'm listening. We are all listening.
VANDEN HEUVEL: I would refer you to the growing volume of reports showing that there was no imminent threat posed to this country's security. That there was no nuclear program...
CONWAY: But that is hindsight.
VANDEN HEUVEL: ... being reconstituted in Iraq. And yes, it is -- the fact that Saddam Hussein's regime is gone may be a good thing for this region and for the world. But the fact that Americans were mislead is a fundamental discrediting of the democracy that I believe we as citizens should uphold and believe in the fulfillment of its promise. This administration, I believe, has failed that promise. And it's a sad day for America.
BLITZER: All right. Ladies, hold on one second. I want to take a quick commercial break. But we have a lot more to talk about. This debate is only getting started.
The recent violence in Iraq very much on the minds of a lot of people. What should be the next steps for the Bush administration? We will be taking some of your phone calls, your questions. Call us right now: 1-800-CNN-1896, or email me at wolf@cnn.com. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. More now on our "Hot Topics" debate.
We are focusing on the situation in Iraq. What should the Bush administration be doing right now? Our two guests, the GOP pollster, Kellyanne Conway, and Katrina Vanden Heuvel, the editor of "The Nation" magazine.
I think we have a caller in Pennsylvania. Jackie, are you still on the air?
CALLER: Yes, I am.
BLITZER: Go ahead with your question.
CALLER: Hello. First of all, the mission as it was explained to us, is over. There are no more -- or there's no sight of any mass destruction weapons. Now the mission is to give peace to the region, give peace to our military families, many of whom are reservists and are not equipped or trained to be doing the terrible job they have there. And not only bring in the U.N., but give control to the U.N.
This is what the Bush administration says that they want to do. So this is what they should do.
BLITZER: Are you saying, Jackie, that the U.S. should simply pull out of Iraq?
CALLER: Of course not. Nobody pulls out. I think we have to stop talking about these extremes.
I am an Independent voter. And I don't consider myself critical if I don't "support" the president. I am waiting for him to support me and our military young men and women that are over there.
What I think we need to do -- nothing will be pull out, as you well know. What we're talking about is you can't expect the U.N. to give money, to give troops if they don't have any control. Is this now a peacekeeping mission or not?
BLITZER: All right. What about that, Kellyanne?
CONWAY: Well, I like the fact that the caller agrees with so many of us, including, I think, this administration, in that we would love to have gotten the U.N. involved. We tried that. In fact, the delay of going into Iraq, as we'll all recall, several months, was precisely because of that point.
We waited for the United Nations to act. We took votes in the Security Council. Secretary Powell briefed them many times. And we again and again were rebuffed by our so-called allies. I would point out, many of whom we helped in the world wars and elsewhere with economic support. They have tasted democracy and have certainly flourished under democratic rule, but yet they would deny the region the same.
BLITZER: All right. Katrina...
VANDEN HEUVEL: I think your viewer put it as well as anyone could.
BLITZER: Hold on one second, Katrina. Specifically, what do you want the Bush administration to do right now in the next few days and weeks?
VANDEN HEUVEL: Wolf, we are living in a Bush box because this administration put us in the mess we are in. Your viewer put it very, very well.
If this administration had been wise after it went to war, it would have internationalized the situation. It would have brought in the United Nations. It would have seated...
CONWAY: Who?
VANDEN HEUVEL: ... political and military control. This administration wouldn't give up control. It wanted it to be a military U.S. operation.
CONWAY: Who in the U.N. wanted to do that, Katrina? Who?
VANDEN HEUVEL: We are now as isolated as we have been in decades. We cannot bring in troops. The administration is in a box of its own making.
It cannot bring in international troops or get any money because of the way it treated the United Nations. What it should do, Wolf, I think, is something that many in the region believe and in the international community. It should return sovereignty to the Iraqis as quickly as possible under U.N. auspices. Maybe bring in the Arab League and hold elections and begin a very expeditious withdrawal of U.S. troops and not leave that country in chaos...
CONWAY: It sounds great.
VANDEN HEUVEL: ... but resistance will increase with military occupation.
BLITZER: All right. Kellyanne, I want you to respond, but listen to this email first we got from Pat in Georgia.
"If it is only terrorists and Saddam loyalists who are attacking our soldiers and Iraqi police, why are so many ordinary Iraqis openly demonstrating and celebrating after the attacks? And why are so many saying they now see America as occupier, not liberator?"
CONWAY: Yes, it would be difficult to quantify to so many. I'm sure those are the people who grabbed some of the camera time, and they should be taken very seriously. We're never going to have 100 percent agreement on anything. We, this country, the world's greatest democracy of 230 -- almost 230 years now, is still a 49 percent nation, as we know, as we've all talked about. So I would expect there to be protests, and I would expect those to gather the attention of cameras.
But the fact is, I think what Katrina wants, Wolf, the question you asked her, it seems like what people like that want is just for George W. Bush to get booted out of the White House and for all of this to sort of turn back the time.
What exactly would be the strategy of the Democratic nominee or perhaps the next president a year from now, Katrina, in that region? Would we in fact just pull out the way that caller that you credited so glowingly said we should not?
What would our strategy be? And who in the U.N. was willing to take this up? Did I miss something? Please don't confuse jealousy and cowardice around the globe with a lack of internationalization outreach.
BLITZER: Katrina, hold that thought, because I'm going to let you respond to that specific question. But let's take another quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Katrina, we ended the last segment Kellyanne asking you, if the Democrats do capture the White House a year from now, there's a Democratic president, what does that president do in Iraq then, assuming the situation is more or less as it is right now?
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, let us hope that this administration, this current one, has the wisdom to understand that, unless it returns sovereignty to the Iraqi people, internationalizes the situation, goes back to the U.N., that we will not see the stability in Iraq that this administration professes to want.
I think that America's reputation so sadly has fallen to a new low in the Arab world, around the world, because of the unilateralism of this administration. Any Democratic administration would work with the world in a multilateral way with the United Nations and will bring more security to this country.
BLITZER: All right.
VANDEN HEUVEL: And that is what I hope.
BLITZER: Steve -- hold on. Let Steve in California weigh in. Steve, go ahead.
CALLER: Thank you, Wolf. I am a military professional, and my job is to protect the Constitution of the United States, and that includes the First Amendment and people's right to free speech and free expression. And it really bothers me that people like Maryanne (ph) say that the people who use that right to criticize this president or question his policies are unpatriotic.
We have a Constitution that I defend. A lot of my brothers and sisters in arms defend it and have died for it very recently. And it really bothers me that the document that we are paying for with our blood is being undermined by the people who are saying that we are unpatriotic for questioning this president.
BLITZER: All right. Kellyanne -- not Maryanne (ph) -- but Kellyanne, go ahead.
CONWAY: I guess it's his personal right to get my name wrong. But anyway, I didn't say that people were being unpatriotic. I have heard other people say that on other shows. He may be confusing the two.
At the top of this show, what I did say was that I find it to be very unpatriotic to not even stop for a moment of silence from that criticism in honor of people like you, sir, who do give up their time and, in this case, their blood, for our freedoms under that document, the First Amendment and otherwise.
Back to what Katrina was saying, I think she should be the tenth person running for the Democratic presidential nomination. In fact, she could probably fare much better than these other folks, because she says exactly what they say.
There's such a temptation to just criticize the administration and then throw a little footnote at the end of that very long vitriolic-filled paragraph about what is wrong with this administration, a little footnote about what the next Democratic president would do. And I don't know who you think is going to take Howard Dean or Al Sharpton seriously around the globe, Katrina. Don't we realize to stop what we are doing now would be a legitimization of those extreme elements throughout this world who hate America and prove it day in and day out?
BLITZER: All right.
VANDEN HEUVEL: This administration has undermined, by going to war in Iraq, undermined the real battle against terrorism. It has depleted the resources needed for that fighting. And at home, it has failed for the first time in decades to ask for shared sacrifice.
It's tax cuts for the top one percent are a scandal at a time when this country has the highest jobless rate since Herbert Hoover. And finally, this is a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) age for contractors. A recent report last week showed that top Bush supporters are reaping the benefits of reconstruction in Iraq with no transparent contract.
BLITZER: Kellyanne, you've got 10 seconds for the final word.
CONWAY: She proved my point. They just can't help themselves to start every sentence and every sentence with Bush and the administration. That obsession is actually going to help him get reelected next year. BLITZER: Well, we'll soon find out a year from now. That is still a long time to go between now and then. The economy can certainly change, get better, get worse. The situation in Iraq the same.
We'll all watching. No one will be watching more closely than our two guests, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Kellyanne Conway. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
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