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NEWS FROM CNN

New Hampshire Primary

Aired January 23, 2004 - 12:38   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're following presidential politics. Our latest CNN tracking poll shows the top three candidates here in New Hampshire to be Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, former Vermont Governor Howard Dean, and retired General Wesley Clark. This is our first tracking poll done entirely after the Iowa caucuses showing an important race under way.
We have supporters for all three campaigns joining us now live. The former State Department spokesman, Jamie Rubin, he's going to join us in a minute. He's a senior foreign policy adviser to Wesley Clark.

Former Senator Gary Hart of Colorado is joining us. He supports Senator John Kerry.

And Steve Grossman is joining us, former chairman of the Democratic Party. He supports Howard Dean's campaign.

Steve, let me begin with you. How much trouble is Howard Dean in right now because of that -- I guess the third place finish in Iowa, followed by that highly publicized concession speech?

STEVE GROSSMAN, FMR. CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC PARTY: I think what Howard clearly needs to do is to go back to basics. And I think that's what you've seen. I think you saw that in the debate last night, I think you saw it in the interview with Judy with Diane Sawyer.

I mean, this is a man who ,long before he was a governor, long before he was a politician, he was a doctor, he was in family practice. And I think the signature issue that got him into the race in the first place is the pioneering work he did on health care and improving quality of life. He's got to talk to the people of New Hampshire about those issues and build a relationship in these last few days so that they take a look at him and say, this is somebody we trust to improve the quality of life issues that we're all about, and that our concerns are based on at this moment in our personal lives.

BLITZER: The polls here in New Hampshire, Gary Hart, clearly showing that the slip that Howard Dean is suffering is helping your candidate, John Kerry. I mean, he's surging dramatically right now. What's your assessment?

GARY HART, JOHN KERRY SUPPORTER: Oh, well I think the voters both in Iowa and here and beyond are beginning to focus on two issues. One is, who can win, electability. The second is, who can govern. And on the governance standard I think John Kerry is head and shoulders above the others. BLITZER: Well, he's certainly taller than the others.

HART: In every respect he's head and shoulders.

BLITZER: But I'm sure Jamie Rubin would disagree.

You support Wesley Clark. His numbers are sort of flat, although they're going down a little bit in these tracking polls. I don't want to make too much out of them. But the surge that John Kerry seems to have had seems to be hurting Wesley Clark to a certain degree.

JAMIE RUBIN, ADVISER TO WESLEY CLARK: Well, he stayed pretty flat, I think, generally, if you put them altogether. Look, John Kerry is the senator from Massachusetts. Everybody in New Hampshire knows him. Governor Dean was the governor of the neighboring state. They are the front-runners, they've always been the front-runners.

Wesley Clark has never run for president before. But I think with the message coming out of Iowa and over the next few weeks, it's going to be they want, as Gary said, someone who can beat George Bush. But there's only one candidate in this race who has the positive message of John Edwards, the southern roots of John Edwards, who did well in Iowa, and the national security experience and being a veteran that John Kerry does.

So he's the one I believe is best positioned to beat George Bush. And John Kerry has been a senator. I think we all respect that. He's been in service. We all respect that. But in terms of getting down and being able to get us out of the mess in Iraq, by building a coalition, there's only one guy who sat across the table from world leaders all across, not debating, but actually doing.

BLITZER: All right. Let me bring back Steve Grossman. And we've got a lot of e-mails coming in. I want to go through a lot of these with all three of you, because our viewers are really anxious to pick your brains.

Marjorie in Arizona writes this: "As a four-star general and supreme allied commander, Wesley Clark also supervised health, education, and other social services of members of the armed forces, as well as their families. General Clark brings much more to the table than his well-known military expertise."

Steve Grossman, what's your assessment of General Clark and his threat to Howard Dean for coming in second in New Hampshire, because there's a significant battle under way for second? If Howard Dean comes in third once again, that could be a serious, serious setback.

GROSSMAN: Well, I would agree with that. But I also want to come back to what the person who wrote you said, and also what Gary Hart said.

He talked about leadership. It's not lost on me that four of the last five presidents have been governors. People in this country like governors with strong, decisive, executive leadership. They like governors like Howard Dean, who is a doctor, went to the governorship, home visited every new mom in the state of Vermont, reduced child abuse and sexual abuse of children. Leadership is about real problems, real solutions and real answers. And it is not lost on me that not a single member of the Congress in the United States, not a single senator has been elected president since John Kennedy was elected 44 years ago.

So I want to focus just as much as Gary on strong, decisive executive leadership, because that's what Howard Dean brings to this. And he brings that relationship with the people of New Hampshire. And I think he's counting on that in his last few days. The people of New Hampshire knowing what he's done across the border and believing in him, and coming back to that personality and that warmth and that humanization that I saw last night with Judy on Diane Sawyer.

BLITZER: All right. Here is another e-mail from David in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. "The real concern of Democrats is to nominate a person who can beat George Bush."

Senator Hart, is Howard Dean capable of beating George W. Bush?

HART: Well, I think that's for the voters of this state to decide.

BLITZER: What do you think?

HART: Well, I would put it the other way around. I think the likely successors to this president, John Kerry, is the best. I would just quarrel with the idea of the governor.

We've got a governor in the White House now and he's not doing very well by I think both Democratic and Independent voter standards. So just being a governor doesn't qualify you to be president.

The job of president means managing the domestic economy, managing the foreign policy of the United States, and being commander in chief of the military forces. I think far and away in all three categories John Kerry is superior.

BLITZER: Jamie, you heard the debate last night. I'm sure you were watching all two hours, as all of us here in New Hampshire were. There was this question that came up involving a supporter of General Clark, Michael Moore, the well known filmmaker. He's a very, very liberal critic of President Bush. And Michael Moore, in the presence of General Clark, said some very, very disparaging comments about President Bush.

And General Clark refused to distance himself really directly from that, causing some concern about what President Bush did when he was in the National Guard and whether he went AWOL or whatever. Explain to our viewers the criticism that General Clark is getting for supposedly aligning himself with what Michael Moore was saying.

RUBIN: Well, General Clark speaks very directly. He answers the questions. If he wanted to call George Bush a deserter, he's perfectly capable of doing that.

And what he said today, and I think what he's been saying all along, is he's not interested in the subject. He never looked into it. What he's interested in -- and if he wanted to say what Michael Moore said, he would have said it. He doesn't agree with that approach to this campaign.

The approach he wants to take is, George Bush as commander in chief, has he done the right things for the country? Wes Clark believes that George Bush has harmed our reputation in the world. And if he were president, he would focus all the resources of our government, intelligence, law enforcement, economic, diplomacy and ultimately the military, on the al Qaeda organization, and not have been diverted from that primary task.

BLITZER: But don't you think he has a responsibility to tell his supporters, you know, Michael Moore, I welcome his endorsement, he's an important guy, he's an important constituent potentially in the Democratic Party. But for him to call President Bush a deserter and for him not to look into it afterwards and even question what Michael Moore was saying, doesn't that raise questions about General Clark?

RUBIN: No, it doesn't. It raises the questions that you are asking and that others have asked. I acknowledge that. But if he wanted to say it, he could have said it.

He is not interested in the subject. He doesn't agree with Michael Moore's approach to define the issue that way. His approach to this campaign is to focus on what's happened now with President Bush, how he's armed our nation's reputation in the world, and what the future lies.

Wes Clark is the only candidate in this race who can stand up to George Bush in the fall as a four-star general, Vietnam veteran, coming from the South, who can tell him that Democrats are for family values and patriotism. And that he's the only one in this race who can take this issue of Iraq and negotiate directly with the leaders of other countries, get us out of the mess with honor. That's what he's putting forward.

BLITZER: All right. You don't think, though, President Bush was a deserter, do you?

RUBIN: I've never looked into it. Have you?

BLITZER: I'm the one that's asking the questions. You're giving the answers.

RUBIN: OK.

BLITZER: We're going to take a quick break. We're going to have a lot more to talk about with three supporters of three very different presidential candidates here in New Hampshire. They're still standing by for your phone calls, so give us a call, send us an e-mail, and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Let's continue our conversation.

Steve Grossman was the national chairman of the Democratic Party. He's now the national co-chairman of Howard Dean's presidential campaign. Gary Hart is a supporter of the Kerry campaign. Jamie Rubin an adviser to Wesley Clark.

Steve Grossman, the whole need right now for Howard Dean to get his act back together to try to regain some of that momentum, what's the most important thing he needs to do right now? Because time is running short and there's a potential, as you well know, and all the pundits are suggesting, his campaign could simply collapse.

GROSSMAN: I think the most important thing Howard needs to do is to connect with the people of New Hampshire. Look, New Hampshire voters are an independent fair-minded group of people. And I believe by anybody's analysis, probably 30 to 40 percent of the voters in New Hampshire are really undecided. They could go any way over the next four days.

And I think what Howard needs to do, and I think he's done it in the last few days, and will continue to do it between now and Tuesday, is to connect with people on the quality of life issues that matter in their lives. Health care is the signature issue that makes him a pioneer.

You know, I heard John Kerry the other day come out with a plan for prescription drug coverage. In 19 years in the Senate, there's not a single piece of legislation that bears John Kerry's name that moved health care of the American people forward. But Howard Dean has been a pioneer again and again.

Five years ago, favoring open borders with Canada to drive down the cost of drugs. That's the kind of leadership and courage that people want in their president. That's what the people of New Hampshire are going to take a look at in the next four days.

BLITZER: Let's ask Gary Hart to respond. You heard what he said about your candidate.

HART: Well, I think John Kerry has his name on as much legislation as Howard Dean or anybody else. I don't think it is a quantitative issue. I think the question is, who has been active not only on health care issues, but education, the environment, energy. John Kerry, to my knowledge, has got a more comprehensive energy independence plan than anybody in this race.

Finally, there's the issue of homeland security we haven't discussed. John Kerry has laid out a very detailed plan to make this country secure. That's something I happen to care very deeply about, as all Americans do. And I know somebody about it. And that's part of the reason why I'm supporting John Kerry.

BLITZER: All right. Let's take a caller.

Mike in Texas, go ahead.

CALLER: Hi. President Bush has recently suggested a program where he's going to be cutting down the overtime pay of a certain number of workers simply by reclassifying them. These include people who work at McDonald's and other cooks, let's say, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and all that. None of the presidential candidates is talking about this. Can I know why they're not talking about this and if they're going to?

BLITZER: All right. Let me ask all of them.

Do you want to talk about it, Senator? Are you familiar with the overtime issue?

HART: No, I'm not.

BLITZER: Are you familiar, Jamie?

Steve, are you familiar with this issue?

GROSSMAN: Yes. I mean, look, it's very simple. And President Bush is trying to roll back the clock. Every American worker, in Howard Dean's view, works regular time. Let's assume it's whatever number of hours they work. They're entitled to time and a half for overtime.

And that George Bush is trying to put his hand in the pocket of the American worker as a gift to his supporters who are funding a more than $100 million campaign is morally reprehensible. And Howard Dean believes that and he has spoken out against that. He will continue to speak out in support of the American worker.

BLITZER: Jamie, you know that there's a lot of e-mail circulating on the Web and every place raising questions about Wesley Clark. Did he support the war, did he not support the war? What exactly was his position going in? He wrote that famous article in the "London Times" after the war in April, suggesting it was a brilliant job, thank god for President Bush.

Clarify to our viewers where exactly Wesley Clark stood, because there seems to be some contradictory statements coming out of his mouth.

RUBIN: Well, you're a fair minded journalist. I'm sure you'll give me more than a couple seconds to explain this. This is war and peace. It's not simple. It's not a yes-no.

From the beginning, he believed that the al Qaeda threat was the larger threat to our country. He was concerned that by diverting our military intelligence and diplomatic resources, Special Forces to Iraq, we would lose focus on al Qaeda. That's why he argued we should pursue this problem.

It was a threat. Not an imminent threat from Saddam Hussein. A threat. It should be done through diplomacy backed by force. And the resolutions in Congress he supported embodied that idea, diplomacy backed by force.

But only use force after you've actually really exhausted diplomacy. Only use force after you've really built an international coalition. Only use force when you had a realistic plan for success.

The article you referred to, he's a four-star general. He's been in the military a long time. You think commenting on this network about a war going on he didn't want us to succeed? Of course he did.

BLITZER: All right.

Let me ask a final question to Steve Grossman. In addition to being former chairman of the Democratic Party, Steve, you were also former chairman of the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee, the very pro-Israel organization in Washington. And there are e-mails circulating all over the place raising questions about Howard Dean and his commitment, his support for Israel. I'm sure you've seen some of the statements...

GROSSMAN: I have.

BLITZER: ... that have been made, raising questions, would he go back toward a so-called even-handed policy which would raise questions about the level of U.S. support for Israel. What do you say about Howard Dean and Israel?

GROSSMAN: Well, I think Abe Foxman, the head of the Anti- Defamation League, was moved by that e-mail to say this is misinformation, this is disinformation, this is wrong. And he asked people to disregard it. And I think people should disregard it.

Look, Howard Dean, on Israel and on foreign policy, is very simple and straightforward. We need to have a strong, robust, muscular American foreign policy that takes this country into battle when there is an imminent threat.

John Kerry has been all over the lot. Wesley Clark has been inconsistent. Howard Dean is the only person who has been consistent. You can agree, you can disagree, but Howard has the courage of convictions on the war, on health care, on civil rights for gay men and lesbians in his own home state.

I ask the people of New Hampshire to take a look at Howard Dean's courage, his straightforward approach, his authenticity, as Tom Harkin said. Even though he may make an occasional mistake, look at Howard Dean, look into the man's heart. This is the man who has shown it in Vermont. He can show it to the people of this country.

And once again, just to mention to Gary Hart -- and Gary was in the Senate of the United States -- I would ask Gary Hart and the Kerry campaign to show me a single piece of legislation in 19 years that John Kerry was the principal sponsor of on health care issues that became the law of the land. BLITZER: All right.

HART: We'll get back to you. We'll get back to you on that.

BLITZER: Unfortunately, we are all out of time, gentleman. I want to thank all of our guests, Steve Grossman, for joining us, Gary Hart, Jamie Rubin.

GROSSMAN: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

BLITZER: We'll continue this conversation. This primary only days away.

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