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CNN CROSSFIRE

Bush Vs. Kerry?

Aired January 30, 2004 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE: He's here. He's there. He's doing well in the polls. But if John Kerry finds himself at the head of the Democratic ticket, will President Bush find an easy or difficult opponent, especially if the administration can't find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want the American people to know that I, too, want to know the facts.

ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Senator John Kerry leads a host of elected officials, including Republican Senator John McCain, in demanding an investigation into why the Bush administration got its story so wrong before the Iraq war. The president says Iraq was a growing danger. That's a quote from Mr. Bush. He has yet to explain how Iraq threatened the United States now that we know it had no weapons with which to threaten us.

But U.S. weapons inspector David Kay says Iraq was likely telling the truth when it claimed that it had no weapons of mass destruction.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Do the Democrats really think they can win the White House by apologizing for getting rid of Saddam Hussein, on top of promising to raise everyone's taxes? It's a no-brainer.

But we'll debate it right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Howard Dean no longer leads for the presidential nomination, but he is still far in front in gaffes committed. In last night's debate, he lied by denying he fired Joe Trippi as his campaign manager. And then he denied that Trippi's successor, Roy Neel, ever lobbied. In truth, Neel, who was Vice President Al Gore's chief of staff, later was a big-time lobbyist, most recently for Verizon, SBC Communications and BellSouth.

Earlier, Dr. Dean said he did not have to win any primary elections next Tuesday to be nominated, but collect enough delegates as a runner-up. Let me tell you something they don't teach in medical school, Doctor. Candidates who lose every primary election not nominated.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: That is true. But what they say -- and I have talked to the Dean high command, the new Dean high command.

NOVAK: Yes.

BEGALA: And they say they're going to jump over next Tuesday's primaries and make their stand in Michigan and perhaps the Washington caucuses after that.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: ... isn't it?

BEGALA: I think it's not wise.

NOVAK: Yes.

BEGALA: I think they should go and contest. He went to the debate in South Carolina. He can't pretend that those primaries don't matter.

NOVAK: How could he lie and say Roy Neel didn't lobby, when he's a registered lobbyist? That's one of few debates...

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: ... that's not a debate.

BEGALA: Roy Neel is a friend of mine. Roy Neel is a lobbyist.

NOVAK: OK.

BEGALA: There's just no two ways about it.

Well, Republicans are trying to shift the blame for President Bush misleading the country into war on to the intelligence community. They claim that the president is the victim here. He was misinformed. Baloney.

A thorough chronology compiled by the Center For American Progress showed that Mr. Bush was warned that he was overstating the threat from Iraq. In February of 2002, the CIA reported that Iraq was not engaged in terrorism and was not arming al Qaeda. The Defense Intelligence Agency warned that White House that there was no evidence of Iraqi chemical weapons.

The departments of Energy and State warned that Mr. Bush was inventing an Iraq nuclear threat that was not real. There is more. You can look it up for yourself. The report is at AmericanProgress.org. Read it and you'll never trust George W. Bush again.

NOVAK: Let me...

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Let me make two points -- two points of fact.

No. 1, David Kay, the weapons inspector who's been quoted all over the place, you neglected to mention, when he testified before the Senate, he enraged Teddy Kennedy and the other senators by saying it wasn't the president's fault. It was the CIA that misled him. It wasn't the Republican campaign that said that. It was David Kay.

Secondly, the Center For American Progress, which you're hyping, is a left-wing Democratic think tank. It's not nonpartisan.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... the CIA.

NOVAK: It is...

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: It is headed by Clinton's former chief of staff.

BEGALA: Yes, and it's quoting the CIA, the DIA, the Energy Department and the State Department.

NOVAK: Democratic senators brought in an expert to advise them behind closed doors yesterday. It was master finagler Bill Clinton.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Among the senators was his long-suffering wife, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: What did she think of her husband's performance? She replied -- quote -- "He is the master. I, just like everybody else, watched and listened with admiration" -- end quote.

Why did the normally attractive Senator Clinton look so funny? Because her tongue was sticking out of her cheek. Everybody knows Hillary thinks she is smarter, better organized and more focused than Bill and would make a much better president, which would not be hard. That may be why she is so anxious to become our very first female president of the United States.

BEGALA: Well, I can't wait until Hillary's the first female president of the United States. I love her. She would be a great president. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: As was her husband. He was the best president in my lifetime. He came in and promised to cut the deficit by half. He eliminated it. He created 23 million new jobs, cut welfare by 60 percent, cut the crime rate, and left George W. Bush the greatest economy ever, which Bush has now tossed into the dumpster.

(BELL RINGING)

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: You had to -- you had to get -- you had to get a kick at Hillary saying he is the master.

BEGALA: He is. And I love her. And I love her husband, too. They're great people.

NOVAK: Yes.

BEGALA: Well, "The New York Times" reports that the Bush administration is considering a move to stop paying for certain cancer drugs for critically ill patients under the Medicare program. The drugs, which are used in extreme experimental cases, have shown promise in some studies, but not enough is known about them yet to approve them for broader use.

So they're used by the very sickest of patients. We're talking about the most vulnerable and deserving people in our society, senior citizens, who have worked their whole lives and paid into Medicare and other federal taxes for 40 years or more. President Bush finds the money to double arts funding. He wants Halliburton to have billion dollar-no-bid contracts, wants to spend billions of your dollars to go to Mars and trillions for tax cuts for the rich, but if you're old and desperately ill, and your only slim hope is an expensive experimental cancer drug, tough luck.

I guess compassionate conservatism only goes so far.

NOVAK: You know, there's one interesting aspect of this, Paul, I'm sure you didn't overlook, because you're a very thorough fellow. You may just have withheld that information from our audience. And that was that, in the "Times" story, it says that it -- that this change could pressure the drugmakers to make these drugs available at lower prices, because it would reduce the markup.

I don't know if you understand how the markup works. But if fewer people are buying it, they may have to drop the cost.

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: Have you considered that?

BEGALA: It's rare cases of cancer, Bob. And the Bush administration is not big on trying to lower profits for pharmaceutical companies, believe me. No, they're trying to hurt old people who are sick. And they ought to be ashamed of themselves.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Senator John Kerry says President Bush has failed the test of a commander in chief, strong words. As Kerry emerges as the front-runner in a campaign to challenge our president, what role welcome the continuing casualties in Iraq, the absence of weapons of mass destruction and claims that Iraq was an imminent threat play in the election? We'll debate all of that in a moment with two top strategists.

And then, two of the Democrats running for president will have a very strong interest in Sunday's Super Bowl. That story and our predictions coming up.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: President Bush today said that he, too, wants the facts about apparent intelligence failures that led the United States to believe Iraq had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. Democrats on Capitol Hill are in a lather to force an independent investigation, which they certainly hope will embarrass the president and make it easier for their presumed nominee, Senator John Kerry.

In the CROSSFIRE, Kerry campaign senior adviser Michael Meehan and former Republican National Committee communications director Cliff May, now with the Foundation For the Defense of Democracies.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Gentlemen, thank you for joining us.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Mr. May.

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Sir.

BEGALA: It seems to me, actually, that the president was prudent in believing that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. He was wrong, it turns out, but it was not unreasonable.

What was unreasonable was his characterization of the threat to the United States. Lots of countries have weapons of mass destruction. The question was, did Iraq threaten us? And the right now is saying, well, Bush never said it was an imminent threat.

MAY: Yes. That's true.

BEGALA: Here's what he did say. Let me just rip through this quickly: "The danger to our country is grave and it is growing," "the unique and urgent threat posed by Iraq," "a significant threat," "a real and dangerous threat," "a serious and growing threat," "a threat of unique urgency."

MAY: Right.

BEGALA: "A grave threat," "a much graver threat than anybody could have possibly imagined."

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Vice President Cheney called it a "mortal threat."

MAY: Yes.

BEGALA: That is, they'll kill us if we don't kill them.

And the White House press secretary, speaking for his boss, Scott McClellan, says, "This is about an imminent threat."

That's the big lie here, wasn't it, Cliff?

MAY: Not at all.

And, as a matter of fact, Dr. Kay, if you listened to what he said, he did use the word imminent threat in regard to Saddam Hussein.

BEGALA: How would they threaten us without weapons? Were they going to make prank phone calls?

(LAUGHTER)

MAY: It's very simple.

BEGALA: They had no weapons of mass destruction. How were they going to threaten us?

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: Well, you and I don't know what happened to the weapons of mass destruction after 1998. We do know what happened to the anthrax. We do know that ricin was being worked on.

What we also know is, there were weapons scientists in the country who had no supervision whatsoever. There were terrorists in the country who were being trained to kill Americans. And there were weapons around that we have never found that may have been destroyed, buried, hidden. We still don't know.

NOVAK: Mister...

MAY: And Dr. Kay said, it wasn't an imminent threat. It was probably worse than what Bush said, based on the intelligence he

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: All right, Mr. Meehan...

MAY: That's what Dr. Kay said. And I believe him.

NOVAK: Michael...

MAY: Don't you?

BEGALA: No.

NOVAK: Michael Meehan, all the Democrats are supporting their new best friend, Dr. Kay. I'm going to give you a little secret. You don't have to tell anybody else. Kay is a real hard-liner and a hawk. So this...

MICHAEL MEEHAN, SENIOR ADVISER, JOHN KERRY CAMPAIGN: He's a realist, I would say.

NOVAK: He's a hawk.

MEEHAN: He's a serious man.

NOVAK: And let me tell you what he said. They drove -- he drove them -- he's driving them nuts.

Let me tell you what Dr. Kay -- what David -- Dr. Kay said: "I think if anyone was abused by the intelligence, it was the president of the United States, rather than the other way around." And he said there is no evidence of this canard the Democrats are putting up that Dick Cheney went to the CIA and bullied the people at the CIA.

If you quote David Kay as saying there was no threat, you've got to say who misled who, don't you?

(CROSSTALK)

MEEHAN: Well, Dick Cheney did go over to the CIA. It's just a question of whether he was bullied or not or how he worked the information around. Whether the aluminum tubes were really for what they claimed they were or whether the mobile homes were what they claim they would be, there was a lot of false information that was given.

(CROSSTALK)

MEEHAN: That was given and portrayed around the time of this vote to members of Congress and to the country.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: As you know, in 1998, Clinton believed that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. He was right. And he said, sooner or later, he will use them. Clinton passed -- I guess you were in the White House then -- the Iraq Liberation Act. That was the official policy of this country, that Iraq needed to be liberated from Saddam Hussein. It was the correct policy under

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: And so does Cuba and so does communist China.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: But we don't want and invade them, either, Cliff.

MAY: No, no, no.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. One at a time.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: We do not have a China liberation act. We do not have a Cuba liberation act. We passed, in 1998, under President Clinton, and rightly so, the Iraqi Liberation Act.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: It made it the official policy of this country to secure regime change in Iraq.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Let's get Mr. -- I want to get Mr. Meehan in on this.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: And I want to get Senator Kerry in on this.

Senator Kerry has had a very firm position upon this. I looked up quote after quote after quote of saying the need to disarm Saddam Hussein. Let's just take one just about a year ago, January 23: "We need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator leading an oppressive regime," nothing of this left-wing stuff that Begala is giving you.

If -- if Paul -- if George W. Bush was wrong about him, John Kerry was equally wrong, right?

MEEHAN: Well, there's no great debate that Saddam wasn't a thug. He's a thug. He's a man who killed his own people, clearly, John Kerry said. And that's why he authorized the use of force, to give the president a way to do that.

But what he disagreed was about the way that this president took us in a preemptive way, did not -- did not exhaust everything available to him

(CROSSTALK)

MEEHAN: ... before he went in.

(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: He said we need to disarm him.

MEEHAN: Sure, absolutely.

NOVAK: All right.

BEGALA: But wait. We did, in fact, disarm him with sanctions, with bombing by President Clinton, with inspections.

NOVAK: This was a year ago, Paul.

BEGALA: He did respond. And it worked, that the Clinton policy actually worked.

And, by the way, let me come back to this point about Dr. Kay saying that the intelligence misled President Bush. I don't believe it. I believe that the president picked and chose among the intelligence. Let me give you some examples.

"The CIA," reported in "The New York Times," "has no evidence that Saddam Hussein provided chemical or biological weapons or related terrorist groups." This was before the war, this was reported in "The New York Times." The DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, said, "There is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing or stockpiling chemical weapons." The CIA again voiced "strong doubts about a claim President Bush made that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Africa."

And, "The Air Force sharply disputed the notion that Iraq's UAVs," which is unmanned aerial vehicles, "were designed as attack weapons." Again and again, the president made these false claims.

MAY: No.

BEGALA: His intelligence agencies tried to warn him. When he wouldn't listen, they leaked it to the press. So the intelligence agencies did their job, but they just couldn't dissuade President Bush from misleading us.

(CROSSTALK)

(APPLAUSE)

MAY: You and I know that President Clinton and President Bush both had the same intelligence and came to the same conclusions.

BEGALA: No, they didn't. Clinton didn't go to war.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: What's more -- Clinton did go to war. He went to war Against Milosevic twice. Now, Milosevic did not have weapons of mass destruction. Milosevic was a thug.

BEGALA: And Clinton never said he was a threat to America. MAY: Saddam Hussein killed 10 times as many people as Milosevic. If you were in favor of the war against Milosevic, you have to be in favor of the war against Saddam Hussein.

NOVAK: Let me -- let get back to...

MAY: You have to be.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Let me get back to Senator Kerry. I feel very badly we're neglecting Senator Kerry.

Today, Ken Mehlman, the director -- or the campaign manager for President Bush said something very...

MEEHAN: Not for President Bush. OK, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're right. You're right.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I said President Bush. Keep on track.

MEEHAN: All right.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Ken Mehlman said -- made a statement -- and, please, Michael, don't write him off just because he's a Bush guy.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: I want you to listen -- I want you to listen to what he said. And I think it's all factual. And I want to -- I'm just desperate to know...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I'm just desperate to know how you can explain it.

Let's listen to Ken Mehlman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN MEHLMAN, BUSH CAMPAIGN MANAGER: We salute Senator Kerry's honorable and heroic service in Vietnam, but we question his judgment in consistently voting to cut defense and intelligence funding critical to our national security.

Even after the first World Trade Center bombing, Senator Kerry voted to gut intelligence spending by $1.5 billion for five years prior to 2001. In 1996, he voted to slash defense spending by $6.5 billion. Both bills were so reckless and so out there that neither had any co-sponsors willing to endorse his plans.

(END VIDEO CLIP) NOVAK: What's your response to that, Michael?

MEEHAN: Well, it's flattering that the Bush administration honors John Kerry's service in the military.

NOVAK: Well, I'd like you to respond to that. Respond to that.

MEEHAN: Well, that was the first thing he said.

And the second thing that he said was that John Kerry voted against all kinds of defense programs. And it's clear that the Republicans haven't met a defense program that they don't want to increase. The president puts something down in Congress. The Republicans in Congress jack up the cost of it. And then they kick it back to the president and they blame each other why the costs go skyrocketing.

NOVAK: So, you endorse -- you condone this cutting of defense, when nobody else would co-sponsor his bill?

MEEHAN: I'm going to finish my answer.

NOVAK: Please.

MEEHAN: Senator Kerry also voted for the defense authorization that John Warner, the chairman of the Republican Armed Services Committee, says was the biggest increase in defense spending since the early '80s in 2003. And he supported it again in 2004.

What John Kerry does have a problem with is our over-reliance on the different -- different types of mechanical programs and not enough emphasis on the human intelligence. And he wrote a back in the 1990s about this from his effort there.

NOVAK: Very quickly.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: Well, just -- look, human intelligence is one of the things that's been lacking. What we've got to look are those -- and Kerry, I'm afraid was among them -- who voted to cut intelligence spending and also to shackle, to hog-tie the intelligence agencies since the end of the Cold War. That was a mistake.

NOVAK: That will have to be the last word.

Thank you much, Cliff May. Thank you, Michael Meehan.

MEEHAN: Thank you.

NOVAK: Just ahead, our audience gets a chance to fire back at us about all things political.

And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the hunt for Osama bin Laden.

(APPLAUSE)

ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Even though John Ashcroft's office is just a couple of miles down the road, there's still a place in Washington where people can speak freely, speak their mind, voice their opinion.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Ask any question they want. We call it "Fireback" right here on CROSSFIRE.

Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My name is Rachel (ph). I'm from Las Vegas, Nevada. And my question is for you, Paul.

Is the race for the Democratic presidential nominee over? What would it take for someone to pull ahead of Kerry right now?

BEGALA: No, it's not close to over. Senator Kerry has worked very well in the first two primaries. Congratulations to him. But if he were here, he'd tell you the same thing. They've got a long way to go. Al Gore is the only person to win every primary with a serious opponent. I don't see anybody doing that this year. It's too tough. We've got good -- good candidates.

NOVAK: Las Vegas lady, you can double-down on this bet.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: It is over. Believe me, it is over. He's the nominee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. I'm Richard from Manhattan.

And my question is, which New Englander do you think is going to prove most popular in 2004, Kerry, Dean or Tom Brady?

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: It depends who wins the Super Bowl. If they win the Super Bowl, it's Tom Brady. If they don't, it's John Kerry.

BEGALA: Yes. But before the game, Tom Brady. We were up there in New Hampshire. They've got Tom Brady jerseys. Every kid in New England is wearing them. It should be an exciting game. I'm looking forward to it.

Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My name is Lori (ph). I'm from Meadville, Pennsylvania.

My question is, how will Dean's lack of military experience come into play as we move to the primaries in the Southern states?

BEGALA: It might. It might. But don't forget that George W. Bush is in the White House and he was AWOL from his National Guard duty for a whole year. And that didn't seem to stop him. So...

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Well, of course, Bill -- Bill Clinton, his predecessor, wanted to apply for the ROTC band playing the saxophone.

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: They disqualified him. So he was no veteran either.

BEGALA: That's a good point. That's a very good point. It's a fair point. But while Clinton's refusal to serve in the ROTC got a lot of press, Mr. Bush's refusal to even show up for

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... has not.

NOVAK: Maybe it's because -- maybe because he didn't -- because he learned to be a jet pilot in the Reserve and Bill didn't even play in the ROTC band.

BEGALA: That's a good point. But then, once he agreed to be a jet pilot, he stopped showing up. I think being AWOL is a legitimate issue, particularly up against guys like Wes Clark and John Kerry, who

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: How did we get on -- I thought we were talking about Dean. Presidential...

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Presidential candidates have been known to fumble a question or two. But when it comes to the Super Bowl, hometown connections can lead to some real pigskin politics, the candidates and their teams next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Presidential candidates, from John Kerry and John Edwards, keep playing nice with one another during the presidential debates. Maybe their home football teams will show them how to really tackle an opponent and throw them for a loss.

Kerry's New England Patriots face Edwards' Carolina Panthers in Sunday's Super Bowl. Who's going to win?

BEGALA: Patriots by 14. You watch. Bill Belichick, the head coach, don't ever bet against him.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: And they got Adam Vinatieri, who is the best field goal kicker under pressure I've ever seen.

NOVAK: Let me tell you what's going to happen. It's going to be a great defensive struggle. And, at the very end, there will be a 13- 7 lead by the Patriots. There will be a long pass by that by Carolina, kick the extra point. They win 14-13.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Wow, excellent. Very exciting. Go, Patriots.

From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.

The CNN Election Express hits the road again next week. Join Paul and me from South Carolina for Monday's edition of CROSSFIRE.

"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.

(APPLAUSE)

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