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CNN IN THE MONEY

Donald Trump's "Apprentice" Big Hit; Interview with Dr. Laura Schlessinger; Roy Disney Wants To Oust CEO Micheal Eisner

Aired February 28, 2004 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR, IN THE MONEY: Welcome to the program. I'm Jack Cafferty. Coming up on today's edition of IN THE MONAY, how to build a hot ticket. It takes charisma, political clout to make a powerful running mate. We will find out who the Democrats might put up for vice president.
And Dr. Yes, working guys have needs. Dr. Laura Schlessinger says the wives ought to satisfy the man. Nodding his head vigorously. See why she thinks a happy man means a happy marriage.

And Trumpasouarus Rex, you thought he was extinct. Nay nay, they wrote him off in the '80s as a dinosaur, but he's back big time. We will tell you how the "Apprentice" the TV show gave business icon Donald Trump a second act.

Joining me today, two of our regulars on IN THE MONEY, CNN correspondent Susan Lisovicz, and "Fortune" magazine, editor at large, Andy Serwer. You have to love Washington D.C.

The last thing the Democrats or Republicans needed this week was for Alan Greenspan to come along and say guys, while you're arguing about who will run the country for the next few years, let me just point out that the Social Security System is going to go broke if we don't start cutting benefits, raising taxes, or doing something.

If you want to make politicians leave a room like cockroaches, just say Social Security. They run for the exits like the building is on fire.

ANDY SERWER, FORTUNE MAGAZINE: It's like Greenspan goes wild. That's sort of the headline. Day one he goes on a rampage about Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae, those government mortgage institutions, saying they are a systemic risk.

Then the next day he blasts Social Security, Medicare and says you have to put more money in those or their not going to pay it. The question that I think is interesting is, why is he doing it now? I think it's because it's the election season and a lot of people are paying attention. Everyone has to respond to it.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think the real headline was that you could understand what Alan Greenspan was saying this week. For me, I already knew. I knew that I was going to be working until I was 85, no Social Security. I saw my AOL/TimeWarner shares plummet. I was already conditioned to believe that. CAFFERTY: The thing that is troubling is that this is not an issue that Mr. Greenspan discovered yesterday or last week or last month. We have known, and the mathematicians have told us for decades that when the baby boomers retire, there won't be enough people left working to support the people retiring. It's simple math.

The government has been borrowing money out of the Social Security trust fund like it's their own private piggy bank. And the day of reckoning is 2008 I think they said when the baby boomers start to retire. And nobody wants to do anything about it.

LISOVICZ: He sets a good example. I think he's past the age of retirement. He is saying that, raise the age.

CAFFERTY: Raise the age, lower the benefits. We'll see what happens. Probably nothing until after the election.

Super Tuesday is days away meantime. For the Democratic presidential candidates it's the biggest battle so far. Party primaries taking place in ten states including big places, New York, California, Ohio, lots of delegates at stake. Whoever scores highest will be looking for a running mate with the right mix of strategic connections and political majo (ph).

On the Republican side the only question is whether or not George W. Bush will stick with Dick Cheney as his vice presidential running mate. To help us understand what makes a potential vice president stand out from the pack, if in fact that is at all possible, and I have my doubts, we're are joined from Washington D.C. by John Zogby. The President and CEO of Zogby International. A respective public opinion holding for Mr. Zogby. Nice to have you with us.

Before we talk about vice presidents, since we are on the weekend ahead of Super Tuesday, what are the Zogby polls telling you about what might be happening? Everything I have read suggests that John Kerry has not lost any momentum at all, and that he is virtually unstoppable here. Are you seeing anything different?

JOHN ZOGBY, ZOGBY INTERNATIONAL: That's certainly how it looks from the vantage point of this weekend. John Edwards is a good closer; he has a good issue on trade and jobs and in some areas like Georgia, Ohio, and New York. But really I think we're looking at a Kerry blowout. I think for all intents and purposes, that it will be over finally this Tuesday.

LISOVICZ: John, has this been a period of humility for pollsters like yourself? We had the Iowa caucuses where Dean came in third; everyone thought he would do much better. That really changed the tone of the campaign, certainly his campaign.

Then you have Wisconsin where Edwards came in second. It was -- the reaction to it was like a coronation for Edwards. And the media was sort of led by what the pollsters were saying, what is your response to that? ZOGBY: I'm just a humble guy any way to start, but given that, no, I mean I think we captured the trend in Iowa ourselves. That's all you can do. Capture a trend and then there's horse-trading afterwards. But we certainly got the order of the finish correct.

Wisconsin was a different story. Most of us polled until just Sunday. And then Edwards really closed very, very well. There's no denying that. He got two important endorsements on Monday morning. He won the debate Sunday night. And he tightened it up. And all we did was capture a trend at least up as far up to Sunday afternoon.

CAFFERTY: John, let's switch over to this vice presidential issue. For the number one guy, picking the number two, that's unusual. You saw that with Reagan and Bush, the elder. You saw that going back with Kennedy and LBJ. If Kerry picks Edwards, what can really Edwards deliver? Can he really deliver the Carolinas for instance?

ZOGBY: No. This is a red state blue state election. A lot of the red states in the south I really don't think are up for grabs. Choosing Edwards might be interesting, in that it has possibilities for the jobs issue in Ohio or Missouri or West Virginia. But other than that, I think we saw in the debate on Thursday night that Edwards is starting to get under Kerry's skin a little bit. So I don't really put Edwards on the short list for vice presidential nominee anyway.

CAFFERTY: Does it matter? The one exception to my question perhaps would be Dick Cheney based on the war in Iraq and all the things that happened on September 11, and that he went back to the Secretary of Defense and President Bush's father's administration, et cetera.

It's interesting to understand how he could have played a pivotal role in the last two or three years. But does it really at the end of the day matter who these people are? I mean does anybody remember or care about the Dan Quayles and the this ones and that ones back down through the years? Nothing disparaging about them, but at the end of the day nobody pulls the lever based on who the number two on the ticket is, do they?

ZOGBY: Not really, no. At the end of the day, no. At the beginning of the day, the first 72 hours after the choice, you want someone who does no harm to the ticket. Also there are people who watch the vice presidential debate, though for...

CAFFERTY: Really?

ZOGBY: For all intents and purposes, their minds are already made up any way. What you look for is someone who does no harm, someone who supplements a weakness that the nominee has. And then someone who ultimately could deliver a state or a region. That's the general rule.

LISOVICS: John, I do watch the vice presidential debates, much to the dismay of my co-hosts here. Last question two words. Ralph Nader, does he matter? Will he make a difference? ZOGBY: He matters, and he'll make possibly a small difference with only a quarter of the vote that he got last time. I think when push comes to shove Nader will probably be out of this race well before November.

LISOVICS: John Zogby, President, and CEO of Zogby International. Thanks for joining us.

ZOGBY: Thank you.

LISOVICZ: Coming up on IN THE MONEY, madre (ph) U.S.A. With more an more American jobs getting outsourced to India; we will speak with a guy who has found a way to cash in big on the trend.

Plus men who work hard, and the women who work hard pleasing them. We will get Dr. Laura Schlessinger's take on how to make a marriage happy.

And the your history channel. NBC has a huge hit with Donald Trump in "The Apprentice." See why so many people are lining up to get fired by a billionaire.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LISOVICZ: The loss of US jobs to overseas markets is fast becoming one of the hot bun issues of this election year. Despite the anxiety outsourcing is causing, there are some firms that have found a way to make money off the trend. One company particular is called Office Tiger. The firm was set up five years ago by two Americans, and joining us today is one of them Randy Altschuler, one of the co- founders, welcome. Co-founders. Welcome.

RANDY ALTSCHULER, OFFICE TIGER: Thank you very much.

LISOVICZ: One of the astonishing things that we have seen in the outsourcing is that we have seen increasingly sophisticated jobs exported overseas; historically it's just been confined to manufacturing, now we see really huge meteoric growth in IT. Your staff in India has advanced degrees. Is that correct?

ALTSCHULER: That's right. In fact our entire staff has graduate degrees, one-third of them having post-graduate degrees. Seven percent of them have PhDs. So it's a very highly educated staff.

LISOVICZ: Where have they been educated? I'm just curious.

ALTSCHULER: At universities in India, as well as some people have spent time in the United States and the United Kingdom, and then come back to India.

SERWER: Randy, obviously this outsourcing thing has become a tremendous hot-button topic. A lot of people are pointing fingers. I'm a real free market guy. I don't have a problem with what you guys are doing. But how do you respond to people who say you are un- American? What do you have to say about that? ALTSCHULER: There are two trends in outsourcing right now. One is all about cost cutting, and taking a job here, firing somebody here and moving it off shore. That's not what Office Tiger does. We are involved with the second trend, which is how can we enhance the services and the jobs that Americans are doing here domestically? And that's what we're really focused on. It's a very different kind of outsourcing.

CAFFERTY: Are you an American company or an Indian company?

ALTSCHULER: We are an American company.

CAFFERTY: Why can't you do this in America?

ALTSCHULER: The question is, if American companies are going to become more competitive, they need to focus on providing higher value added services to their clients. So you want the professional here doing different kinds of things than he or she is doing today. Office Tiger allows them to take some of the more traditional tasks and outsource that offshore.

CAFFERTY: I don't quite understand though, why it is with computer technology, and satellites, and phone lines and everything. Why do you have to be over there? Why do your employees have to work in a foreign country?

ALTSCHULER: Let me give you an example. Talk about an investment banker like I used to be, I'm working on a merger and acquisitions transaction. I used to spend a lot of my time as an investment banker doing basic research and financial analysis, and not focused on my client and trying to add value there.

Now, if I'm working on a mergers and acquisitions transaction, I use Office Tiger to research about those companies, to do financial analysis about those companies, and help us create presentations that I, the investment banker can give to my client. Meanwhile as an investment banker, I can focus on thinking of new strategies for them and really evaluating what acquisitions make sense. So it's adding more value to the customer.

LISOVICZ: And more value to you, and the people who work with you. Obviously you have exploited the trend very favorably. No less credible a source other than Alan Greenspan said recently that the United States has historically exported jobs overseas and done very well.

New jobs, new industries will be created. Do you buy into that idea? If so, where is the next source of jobs for Americans?

ALTSCHULER: I think it's a question if companies that are outsourcing right now are they going to take the savings from that, and are they going to invest that in their own employees and skill them up and allow them to focus at highly value added services for their clients?

That's where Office Tiger, and companies like Office Tiger can add a lot of value. Enhancing what those companies are doing today. I think American companies have just cut costs and don't do anything with those savings; they are not going to work.

SERWER: Randy, let's get down to brass tacks here. What we're talking about, is you are paying employees less money because they are in India. And again, I don't have any problem with that, but shouldn't you just say that? And how much less are you paying people over there than you would be paying them here?

ALTSCHULER: I think the question is what are American companies focused on? And how can they become more competitive?

SERWER: But how much less are you paying them?

ALTSCHULER: It's less expensive than here domestically. Obviously that's one of the reasons why people are using off shore. But I don't think that's the point. The point is, how can American jobs add more value to their customers so their companies can be more competitive? That's why people should be outsourcing, not just to cut costs and save money by shipping jobs off shore.

CAFFERTY: But it is an emotional point here, in light of the fact this economy has lost 2.5 million jobs over the last three years. It's become a sore point here in the United States. Besides people that interview you on television, are you getting heat from friends and family because you have outsourced jobs to a foreign country?

ALTSCHULER: Again, just to go back to what I was saying before. There are two different kinds of outsourcing. One is taking a center job here, or a data entry job here, and moving it off shore. That's not what Office Tiger does.

Office Tiger is actually trying to make the professionals here more productive and grow their job responsibilities. So in fact, it's actually enhancing what professionals do here. It's very different than just shifting jobs off shore.

SERWER: All right. Randy Altschuler, we appreciate you coming on and giving your perspective. He's the CEO and co-founder of Office Tiger. Thank you.

ALTSCHULER: Thank you very much.

SERWER: Up ahead on IN THE MONEY, Martha Stewart cooking or cooked? With her obstruction trial entering it's final days, we will have a wrap-up. Plus, food, sex, and fun. I guess that's the big three. Get Dr. Laura Schlessinger's take on what makes a marriage tick.

And business boot camp. See why people are tuning in to watch Donald Trump weed out the raw recruits on "The Apprentice."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LISOVICZ: Big news from the Martha Stewart trial this week was the defense that wasn't, or at least it might have looked that way. Joining us with more on that and a look ahead as to what is next as the trial winds down, is CNN's Mary Snow. Hi Mary.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there Susan. You know, before jurors even get this case they won't have to consider the most serious charge against Martha Stewart. The judge in this case dropped the securities fraud charge which carried a maximum of ten years in prison.

This is not a big surprise. This is a charge that was based on Martha Stewart making statements in June of 2002. Prosecutors saying she was trying to prop up her own stock by proclaiming her innocence.

In terms of what happened this week, the defense presented and rested its case in just 43 minutes with one just witness. The defense signaling confidence behind their brief defense strategy, and for not calling Martha Stewart on the stand.

Legal experts point out though, that it carries a risk. It puts extra pressure on Stewart's defense attorney to make his compelling case in closing arguments. And the defense has been trying to do that by pointing out that this case hinges on circumstantial evidence.

And really what is at the heart of this case is did Martha Stewart and her stockbroker have an agreement to sell Inclone stock in late 2001 because of an agreement to sell once it hit $60? The government says no such agreement existed. And it's their burden of proof to prove that it didn't exist.

The star witness, Doug Faneuil a big part of this case, said he handled the trade. There was no such agreement. But the defense has argued that Faneuil was on vacation when this agreement was reached and he wouldn't have known any way.

The co-defendant in this case, Peter Bacanovic also did not testify. Part of the case against him involves ink. His proof that there was an agreement was a sheet with -- at 60 notation listed next to Inclone stock. But the government brought on an ink expert to say that that notation was made with a different pen than the rest of the page.

All part of the evidence that the jury will have to consider. Closing arguments are set to take place Monday and Tuesday, and then the judge has told the jury she will instruct them on Wednesday. Back to you guys.

SERWER: Time for our "Stock of the Week." This Wednesday the Walt Disney Company will hold its annual meeting, but you might as well call it a showdown, that's because (UNINTELLIGIBLE) shareholder Roy Disney and a growing list of powerful investors are trying to get rid of CEO Michael Eisner. Christine Romans has a look at the push to push out the king of the Magic Kingdom.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pirates of the Caribbean is the movie, Pirates of the boardroom is what is happening at Disney right now. Michael Eisner on the hot seat. Next week we will get a good idea of just how many shareholders are going to essentially vote against his leadership at Walt Disney. He has been under the gun for some time now, and the list of shareholders expressing dismay at his leadership is growing. Calpers, the nation's largest pension fund, Calsters, also number three-pension fund. You have other states lining up.

The New York Comptroller, Institutional Shareholders Services, and Glass Lewis & Company. Glass Lewis is an independent proxy service that said essentially, the company gets a C for pay for performance. It needs to make more ground headway in better corporate governance and that leadership there needs to change.

At the same time you have a hostile bid from ComCast. So the board, the shareholders of Disney have a lot of work ahead of them.

LISOVICZ: And Christine, you and I, we all remember quite vividly when Calpers came out and denounced Dick Grasso NYSE and called for his head. He had withstood a wave of criticism. But within 48 hours, he was gone.

ROMANS: These are important shareholders. Together they count for some two or three percent of the outstanding shares. And 30 percent -- a Disney source says they expect maybe 30 percent of the shares that are voted next week will be voted against Michael Eisner.

CAFFERTY: Have they reached the point, this is just too big a distraction for the company? We don't talk about Disney anymore, we talk about Disney, and what are they going to do about Eisner? Disney, and who will replace Eisner? There's a point of which the company just cannot function with this kind of thing going on as a sidebar.

SERWER: I really think they have. There's no question in my mind, Jack and Christine, because all they're doing now is defending the CEO. All the CEO is doing is defending himself. Eisner has been lobbying pension funds, going out there. Even if he survives this, then he has to fend off the ComCast bid, that's in large part because of the weakness of the company because of his leadership. It's all about Michael Eisner. That's not a good thing.

ROMANS: One thing about Michael Eisner that is so amazing is over the past ten years alone, he has made more than $1 billion running this company. It comes out to something like $825,000 a month running this company.

CAFFERTY: For himself.

ROMANS: For himself. That is a lot of money. When you are paid that much money you start to come under fire from folks who want to see changes in corporate governance, want to see pay for performance.

Disney, they honestly have came out today with a big full-page ad in the "New York Times," and said look, double digit returns for investors over the past year. We have earnings growth forecasts, double digit returns for the next couple of years, but California pension folks say we have a negative return for the past five years, that's all we care about. CAFFERTY: Potentially this ComCast deal could be a blockbuster deal if it works. If the idea of marrying content to a system to deliver it, if that business model would prove to be good. Do you buy the stock based on what happens to Eisner, the fact he will probably be out at some point, and not in the to distant future, and maybe this deal goes together, and maybe it does work, unlike AOL and Time Warner?

ROMANS: The company dismissed it (UNINTELLIGIBLE), though.

CAFFERTY: That does not mean anything.

SERWER: I think the stock is a good value over the long terms. It's gone nowhere for a long time. Eventually this thing will sort itself out. They will get this company back on track. I think overtime, you are starting a low base. That's what it is all about in investing.

LISOVICZ: You know why drama, because the annual shareholders meeting is in Philadelphia. Headquarters of what company?

ROMANS: It will be very interesting.

LISOVICZ: ComCast!

CAFFERTY: They dismissed it out of hand perhaps because there probably isn't enough money on the table yet. But we'll have to wait and see. That's a look of the "Stock of the Week."

There's much more ahead on IN THE MONEY as we continue. Coming up next, CPR for a dying marriage. Dr. Laura Schlessinger says she knows how to bring husbands and wives back from the brink. We will see if you agree with what she has to say.

Later on, Reality TV puts on a suit and tie. We will look at "The Apprentice" and what it has done for Donald Trump. He is suddenly hot again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: Our next guest has spent her career talking to people about how to improve their relationships, And sometimes with more bite and candor than they want to hear. Dr. Laura Schlessinger has become a household name. That's the doctor on the right. The other guy is Larry King.

Household name with her syndicated talk radio program and six "New York Times" best sellers. Her latest round of advice is a book entitled "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands," of which I am one.

She's raised a lot of eyebrows especially among working women, who say it's a throw back to the 50's. Joining us now from Los Angeles, Laura Schlessinger. Nice to have you with us. Welcome.

LAURA SCHLESSINGER, TALK-RADIO HOST: Thank you. Good morning. CAFFERTY: I'm all ears about "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands," because I want to learn what's not being done at my house. But, in this age of two income families, kids, soccer practice, trying to get the rent paid, and all of the things that are going on, is it naive to think that one partner in the marriage can take that kind of time and energy to care for and feed the other one?

SCHLESSINGER: Well, if you don't, you probably are going to lose your marriage.

CAFFERTY: Okay.

SCHLESSINGER: I would say the most common piece of feedback I have gotten in the two months since the book has been out, is my gosh, I was into my school, my studies, my work, my exhaustion, my kids, my this, my that, and the other thing, you know, I admit it. I can't believe it. But I have not given any thought at all to him as my husband, my hero, my partner, my lover, his needs, his feelings. I have been so centered on myself.

But still demanding that he do something wonderful for me on Valentine's Day. What I'm trying to remind women is that frankly ladies, we have the power to transform our men, our marriages, and our lives just by our sweetness, our thoughtfulness, our kindness, and understanding that there's a male/female polarity. We aren't just two people earning money.

SERWER: Dr. Laura, keeping it coming. You are preaching to the choir here. Amen to that. I'm a married man, if my wife is watching I'm just sort of kidding. But --

CAFFERTY: If your wife is watching you won't get in tonight.

SERWER: I want to ask you is something that really struck a cord with me, and that has to do with the differences in the way men and women talk, and what they talk about. You are talking about the fact that women need to talk as a sort of catharsis, men talk just for communication. Where do I need to go? What do I do? Why is that? How can men and women improve on that?

SCHLESSINGER: I don't think it needs to be improved. It needs to be understood and accepted. I tell women all the time when they call me, if you want to go on and on and on about something and not resolve it, talk to your girlfriends. If you want a resolution, talk to him. But he is not going to sit there and talk about feelings; he will show you his feelings by what he does.

It's not a matter of femininizing men, which makes me sick. Do not ever get in touch with your feminine side. That is so annoying, that is our job.

LISOVICZ: No worries here. I have a question for you that I know Andy or Jack will not ask. It's about sex. It's been reported that men sometimes are in the mood more than women. And you are of the belief that women should be more submissive? SCHLESSINGER: Submissive? No, they should be more in tune and loving with their husbands. Again, that's communication. One of the big surprises it would seem that women had from reading this book and writing to me is that they thought their guys just needed it. They didn't understand that when men are married and love their woman, that that is how they get their feeling of approval and acceptance. That's how they show their love.

I ask women all the time if every time you put your hand on him and fluttered your eyelashes he slapped your hand down and said, no, I'm not in the mood, how happy would you be, and how long would you stay in that marriage? It's part of loving. If you are to tired, and to stressed all the time to feel like it, then you better change your life because that is a part of the covenant.

CAFFERTY: There's a lot of women out there probably getting ready to throw something at the front of the TV set now, Doc, no offense.

SCHLESSINGER: Then they are missing out on their own chuckles.

SCHLESSINGER: There's a new term for it. Andy, would like to ask the next question? I'm out of stuff over here.

SERWER: You know, I think you're hitting the nail on the head a little bit. I don't know, well, one question I do have, Dr. Laura, are we really that simple? Are men really that simple? There's something there about we just need a sandwich and some sex. Is that really us?

SCHLESSINGER: It's one or the other.

SERWER: Sports?

SCHLESSINGER: From your woman you need to know that you're her hero. It's very interesting. If you are not sure that you're simple, think of this picture. A woman has had a bad day, bad hair day, everything is stressed, and it's really terrible. She comes through the front door of the house, and her husband meets her naked and says let's go make love. You know she will say how insensitive of you, I have had a bad day. How can you just think about yourself?

Now let's reverse that. A man has had a really bad day. Maybe he doesn't even have hair, I don't know. But his wife meets him at the door, naked and says let's go make love. He has forgotten his day.

Yes, you guys are a lot less complex, that in part, your emotional dependency upon us and your lack of complexity here gives us the power to make our homes and our marriages so much more happier than we are. We are so much in sibling rivalry with husbands as a male, female; everything I give you is somehow servility. It's not. It's called love. The giving gets you back.

LISOVICZ: Dr. Laura, first of all, congratulations. I have never seen Jack Cafferty and Andy Serwer speechless ever. SERWER: We are loving this. We are basking in it.

LISOVICZ: Dr. Laura, the name of your book is "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands." Is there a sequel? The proper care and feeding of wives?

SCHLESSINGER: No, because men are born of women, they are raised by women they come to women to marry; we are training them all the time. As I said before, men are very easy. If you attend -- if you show them that you care, that you are interested, that you attend to their needs, frankly, they'll swim through shark-infested water to bring you a lemonade. We don't need the reverse book. We have the power to create it.

SERWER: Listen, I haven't remembered a guest that we've had on this program that I agreed with more Dr. Laura. Really, thank you very much for coming on. Dr. Laura Schlessinger. Author of "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands," thank you.

Stick around, there's more on the way here on IN THE MONEY, see how Donald Trump turned a reality show into business 101. We will look at "The Apprentice", and the mobile behind it.

And later, big sales on the small screen. Find out whether the Internet ad business is primed for a comeback.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SERWER: Donald Trump has worn many hats in his career, real estate mogul, casino boss, airline owner, and now reality TV star. Trump's new program, "The Apprentice" has become one of the hits of prime time television. The show is a competition between CEO Wannabes, and it's Trump who decides who hits the street and who hits the suite.

This week it helped to land Trump on the cover of "Newsweek" magazine. And joining us with more on the hits and misses of Donald Trump is the man who wrote the article, "Newsweek's" Keith Naughton. Keith Welcome.

KEITH NAUGHTON, NEWSWEEK: Thanks for having me out.

SERWER: I wonder about Donald Trump sometimes, because I think that the guy succeeds in spite of himself. He is crazy but maybe he's crazy like a fox. You spent time with him, what do you think?

NAUGHTON: Amazingly enough I thought he would be a hard edge, sort of tough guy. He was really very charming. The guy certainly knows how to make you feel comfortable and at ease. Perhaps that's how he has done all these deals through the years.

LISOVICZ: But Keith, he is also a shameless self-promoter. I have interviewed him a couple times. I remember I was involved in a series on gambling. While the other people involved would say just interview me at my office or at the casino, Donald Trump suggested we and the crew go on his private helicopter, which is this whole James Bond experience, with two pilots, and then when we landed it was on top of one of the Trump properties.

It was so loud that all of the people in the hotel nearby came to the windows to see Donald Trump get off with the cameras rolling. Reinforcing the Trump brand. That's part of his success, isn't it?

NAUGHTON: Yes, nobody promotes Donald Trump better than Donald Trump. When I got together with him for this cover story, he had me down to (UNINTELLIGIBLE), his estate down in Palm Beach, and just to go inside that world is extraordinary.

But the Trump brand actually has translated into real money for him. I mean, they talk about the Trump factor in New York real estate, where he gets 15 percent to 50 percent higher rents than anybody else just by slapping his name on the building.

CAFFERTY: The reason though Keith he is on the cover of your magazine is because of the success of this television show that he's doing, "The Apprentice." And unlike other reality shows that feature people eating little creepy crawly deals, or trying to tear each others clothes off on some desert island, this takes place inside the business empire of the Donald.

And the show is a runaway smash hit. The reruns on CNBC of this program outdraw all of the first run and live shows that they do. More people are interested in this than any other stuff on that particular channel. What is the secret of "The Apprentice"? Why do people get into this thing to the degree they are?

NAUGHTON: It has been an amazing success. I think it has even taken Trump a little bit by surprise, which is pretty extraordinary. Since he think everything that he does will be top rate.

CAFFERTY: That is a surprise.

NAUGHTON: But what it is, I think, it's finally a reality show that gets sort of close to real. It puts us in a place that we all inhabit every day, the workplace. I think we have all seen the sort of backstabbing pettiness, dirty dealing in our own work lives. And we sort of enjoy watching it on television.

Also, at these times when there's still nervousness about the economy, I think there is sort of a gallops humor effect in watching Donald Trump say those two magic words "you're fired."

CAFFERTY: Watching somebody else get it instead of us.

NAUGHTON: Exactly.

SERWER: Keith, let me ask you a little bit about the most important issue here on the table -- that is the hair. Is the hair real? You say the hair is real. I can't believe that. Come on.

NAUGHTON: This is one of my proudest moments of investigative journalism. I sat with him at dinner in his beautiful country club down in Palm Beach. And I said, you have to tell me about the hair, and the first thing he did was lean toward me, and lift up the hair to show me his hairline to show me that it's really his.

CAFFERTY: No.

NAUGHTON: To show me that it's not a wig and it's not a comb over. He went on to explain how he cares for it. Which is he washes it every day, lets it air dry for about an hour and a half while he reads the paper.

SERWER: Maybe too much information.

NAUGHTON: You asked, so you are going to get it. But here's the key, his barber is his wonderful beautiful girlfriend, Melina the 33- year-old former model. So maybe that might explain something? I don't know.

LISOVICZ: I'm not going to go there. I'm not that interested unlike Andy. But Keith, what I am interested in is whether the Donald has mellowed. I have actually noticed -- I'm addicted to the show. I don't watch any other reality shows. He actually admitted on one program that he was duped. He almost went bankrupt. I remember it well, with his Atlantic City properties. Has it changed him and has that made him more likable and has that again also partly translated into the success of the show?

NAUGHTON: I do think he has softened. It's so odd that his image is softer because of the show, when in fact; the punch line of the show is "you're fired." which is about as ruthless as it gets. But yes, I think he comes across kind of a little more paternal with these young eager beavers on the show.

He comes across as trying to teach them lessons, not just in a bad way, actually in a good way. And maybe he has been humbled by his brush with bankruptcy back in the early '90s. That's kind of hard to tell when you're with him. But I do think the show itself provides a broader image of Donald Trump. And I think it's an image that America is liking, has warmed to.

LISOVICZ: The kinder softer Donald Trump.

NAUGHTON: Exactly.

LISOVICZ: Keith Naughton, the "Newsweek" magazine Bureau chief in Detroit. Thanks so much for a very entertaining article.

NAUGHTON: Thank you very much.

LISOVICZ: Up next on IN THE MONEY, mouse bait. Online advertising is back and booming. We'll tell you why.

And don't just sit there, do something. And you can drop us an e-mail about the show at this address: inthemoney@cnn.com, you will hear back from Jake, our producer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: Well they say nothing succeeds like success. And for the online retailers, that is exactly what's been happening. It may also mean a return of the internet advertising business. Allen Wastler has more on that. And of course, the much-anticipated "Fun Site of the Week."

ALLEN WASTLER, MONEY.COM: Online retailing is actually taking off big. It's $52 billion business, double-digit growth last year, 20 percent. And they are saying it's going to keep on, keep on, keep on.

And with that, now comes all the advertising, something I know I really like. But the advertising is building up to $7.1 billion last year. That's still not hitting where it was at the top of the internet bubble. But you can read it two ways. Some people are saying this is it, man, it's back. We will be soaring up. It's because we have this great technology that helps you track people. We can really work with consumers, and just get value-added service. Isn't that great?

But there is the other side of the coin saying, no, this is a blip the same way you are seeing NASDAQ stocks get overvalued. A lot of people getting hyped up on tech this and tech that. Throwing money at latest venue and besides, the advertising is annoying. So why are you going to keep doing it?

SERWER: You are in the business Al, but let me ask you, does it really work? People question whether online advertising works.

WASTLER: What happens is -- this is part of the problem. There is no standard for measuring what is working, what's not. One year it's pages, how many hits were downloaded. Another time it's gross minutes of eyeballs on the screen. How much is that? There's no common currency to figure out what is working and what's not. Also every time something works it turns out that's very annoying. The pop-up ad for example.

SERWER: That works, though.

WASTLER: When you are over there, hey did you want to read this? Pop. Did you want to read this? Pop.

CAFFERTY: Plus they are getting a lot better at making you work to make them go away. When the ads first came along, there was a little X in the thing, and you clicked, now, you have to look for something that says in letters about this big, against two shades of pastels that make your eyes go like this, close window. You can't find it. By then, you know, you can't go back to what you were looking for to begin with.

WASTLER: What is getting more annoying is now with the spread of broadband, and all those high-speed connections, now they zap you with the video ads? The sound. All of a sudden your computer is going -- what's going on?

CAFFERTY: I come to work at 5:00 in the morning, I don't need that aggravation. I just want to go in and do my thing. All right, "Fun Site of the Week." What do we have? WASTLER: I heard you talking to Dr. Laura earlier. You know what? You don't need care and pampering. It's great to be a man any way. There is always a game on somewhere. That's great to be a man. Your new shoes never hurt your feet. If some guy is wearing the same outfit as you -- you're buddies. The remote is yours and yours alone. And your underwear is $10 for a three-pack.

CAFFERTY: You pay that much?

LISOVICZ: Here is one reason why it's great to be a man. Because you draw a bigger paycheck.

CAFFERTY: Listen to this. Where is my violin? Pete, get me my violin. We will need a little music here for Susan.

Just ahead, we will hear some of your car buying horror stories. And you can e-mail us your thoughts at inthemoney@cnn.com. First Susan has this week's edition of "Money and Family." Earn those dollars.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISOVICZ: Are you looking for a smart way to save for your child's college education? Investing in a 529 savings account gives you a lot of flexibility. Here are the basics.

A 529 savings plan is a mutual fund account. You set it up specifically to pay for higher education expenses. To qualify for certain tax breaks, the earnings must be spent on educational expenses at any accredited post secondary U.S. institution.

Qualified expenses include tuition, fees, room and board, books, and supplies. 529s are available in every state and anyone can open an account. There are no income prerequisites. And in many state there's is no set annual contributions. So you can begin with as little as $15 a month and increase your contributions as your budget allows.

You can contribute up to $11,000 a year, which is much more than the annual $2,000 per child cap on ESA accounts. A 529 savings plan allows you to choose from an array of investing options from aggressive to conservative mutual funds. And there's no time limit on when you have to divest your money. If your child does not need the money for higher education, you can roll the account over to another family member.

Next week we'll tell you about some of the tax benefits of 529 savings accounts. I'm Susan Lisovics for "Money and Family."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: All right. We asked you to e-mail us with your worst car buying experiences ever. Boy did you. Here is some of what you told us. Phyllis wrote, I signed the papers to buy a new car on a Monday. Then the dealer called three days later to say we needed to make a bigger down payment. They told me the papers I signed were not legal. I held my ground. Then they called back said someone took the car we bought for a test drive and crashed it. Then I called my lawyer.

Jim wrote this, I went to a dealership with accurate information on invoice prices. The salesman told me not to trust those figures and quoted me a much higher price from an obviously doctored document that still had whiteout stains on it. It was pure scam all the way to the bottom.

Gary in Phoenix wrote this; during our negotiations, the salesman got a phone call. He told me his sister -- this is unbelievable -- his sister had just been reported missing and he had to run, take care of the kids. Turned out to be a story designed to get to us feel sorry for him. Agree to a higher price and sign the contracts right away.

SERWER: That one does take the cake.

CAFFERTY: Isn't that unreal?

All right. E-mail question for this week concerns the way we choose our president in America. Should the Electoral College system be abolished in favor of a popular vote for president? Al Gore would like to have had this change in place four years ago. Send your answers to inthemoney@cnn.com. If you happen to be al Gore, don't bother writing, we know the answer.

Everyone should check out the show page on the web, at money.com/inthemoney. That's where you can learn a lot of extra things about this program including the address of the fun site of the week, 101 great things about being a man.

Thanks for joining us for this edition of the program. Appreciate you dropping by. Thanks to the gang, Susan Financial Correspondent Susan Lisovics, "Fortune" magazine Editor at Large, Andy Serwer, and money.com Managing Editor, Allen Wastler.

Join us tomorrow 3: 00 Eastern Time, when electoral math will be the topic. We will talk about which states will decide this presidential election. And what President Bush and the Democratic nominee need to do to win them. That's tomorrow at 3:00. See you then.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com



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