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CNN LIVE SATURDAY

British Troops Clash With al-Sadr Supporters; Lynndie England 7th Soldier Charged In Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Scandal

Aired May 8, 2004 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is noon at the Pentagon, 11:00 a.m. in Macon, Mississippi, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in Atlanta, welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. In this hour, prisoner scandal and why the worst may be yet to come.
Also, the art of interrogation, in-depth on what's legal. And later:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A few things that you'll see were really tugging at your heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just sympathize with them so much, you know, and I just want to make sure that...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: A side of the war rarely see, a mercy flight bringing injured soldiers home for urgent medical care, but first the headlines for this hour.

Expressing outrage, President Bush vows that justice will be done in the Iraqi prisoner treatment case. In his radio address today, Mr. Bush says the seven military personnel charged in the case do not reflect the U.S. military as a whole. And, while he says the case stains the country's honor, Mr. Bush says it will not deter the mission to bring democracy to Iraq.

Nearly a month after he was captured and held captive in Iraq, Thomas Hamill is home in Mississippi. Family and friends greeted Hamill with cheers as he arrived in Columbus, near his hometown, earlier today. Hamill was a truck driver for a Halliburton subsidiary when his fuel convoy was attacked near Baghdad. He escaped from his captors and last Sunday caught up with U.S. soldiers.

A German teenager suspected of creating the "Sasser" computer virus is in police custody. The 18-year-old high school student was arrested yesterday in Germany. The virus raced around the world this week infecting hundreds of thousands of computers. It caused computers to crash and reboot.

We begin this hour in Iraq and the prisoner treatment scandal that has drawn worldwide outrage. In an effort to repair some of the damage, the new U.S. commander of Detention Operations in Iraq said the military police is currently receiving new training. With more on the new leadership and the latest on the fighting in Iraq, Ben Wedeman joins us from Baghdad -- Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Fredricka, well, in the southern part of the country, British troops in Basra clashed with supporters of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr. Now, the clash has occurred during demonstrations in several spots around the city. Hospital sources in Basra say that at least two people were killed and five wounded in the fighting. Two British soldiers also received injuries, as well. The clashes follow a call yesterday by a local religious leader associated with Sadr in which he offered monetary rewards to anyone who kills or captures British soldiers in that city. There were also several -- rather, in several towns around southern Iraq. Members of Sadr's militia, the so-called "Mehdi army" clashed with coalition forces.

In Baghdad, the Abu Ghraib Prison abuse scandal continues to reverberate with many Iraqis, essentially brushing aside Friday's congressional testimony by U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. But here in Baghdad, a new head of the Abu Ghraib Prison, Major General Geoffrey Miller, told reporters that pledges to clean up house at Abu Grairb will be followed up with action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. GEN. GEOFFREY MILLER, U.S. ARMY: What we must do now is not only use words, but our actions must demonstrate our continuing focus on this, our adherence to the Geneva Conventions, and the principles of dignity to each of those individuals who are protected individuals under the Geneva Convention. And I give you my personal guarantee that we will continue to do that seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEDEMAN: And as the uproar over the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal shows no sign of abating, the U.N. special envoy to Iraq, Lakhdar Brahimi, is in Baghdad meeting with Iraqi leaders and others trying to forge what he hopes to be an effective interim Iraqi government for the June 30 handover of power. Now, some members of the U.S. appointed Iraqi governing council have criticized Brahimi for not adequately consulting with them. Brahimi has met with a wide spectrum of Iraqis. He's trying to put together a government -- an interim government as representative as possible, Fredricka, of Iraq's very diverse society.

WHITFIELD: And Ben, what kind of reaction are Iraqis exhibiting post-the General Miller's comments today and Secretary Rumsfeld testimony yesterday?

WEDEMAN: Well, really, many people brush them aside, as I said before, but others really are waiting to see if these promises are actually brought to fruition. They are waiting, for instance, to see if these prisoner releases that Mr. General Miller has promised, he promised to release 300 this week, 400 next week. They want to see if that's going to happen. Many -- some people I've spoken with actually are impressed, those who watched the congressional hearings, I think, kind of grilling that Secretary Rumsfeld did get, this is the sort of spectacle that was simply unthinkable in the days of Saddam Hussein. But really, this abuse scandal has left a very bitter taste in the mouths of many Iraqis who, of course, a year ago thought that atrocities at Abu Ghraib had come to an end of the, but many will tell you, they don't think they have -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Ben Wedeman in Baghdad, thanks very much.

President Bush's message today, the mission in Iraq goes on. Mr. Bush focused on the prisoner issue in his weekly radio address just two hours ago. Let's go to the White House now and Dana Bash.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Fredricka. Well, the White House attempt to try to quell the outrage that is still going on, as Ben was talking about, around the world, and of course here at home over the Iraqi prisoner abuse. Scandal does continue and you mentioned the president's radio address. He devoted the entire radio address to talking about this, he repeated comments that he made later this week about the fact that these acts were shameful, and a stain on America, but he also tried to do what White House aides say they understand is the bottom line here, and that is, answer the question, or at least address the question of what America is going to do about it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Shortly after reports of abuse became known to our military, an investigation was launched. Today several formal investigations led by senior military officials are under way. Some soldiers have already been charged with crimes. We will learn all the facts and determine the full extent of these abuses. Those involved will be identified; they will answer for their actions. All prison operations in Iraq will be thoroughly reviewed to make certain that similar disgraceful incidents are never repeated.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BASH: But even some Republicans here in Washington say this makes it much, much harder for the president to continue to make the claim, as he does, as he travels around the country, that it was morally important to go to war in Iraq, because it was important to close Saddam Hussein's torture chambers, as the president often says. And democrats are saying that the abuse scandal in the Iraqi prison is not just about that, it's about much more, and goes to the very heart of the American mission, there.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, U.S. ARMY (RET.): We came to free, not to imprison. With our character, we don't torture or maim or coerce. And if the mission was endangered by the prospects of our use having force against insurgents in Fallujah and Najaf, and it was so endangered, it is no less endangered by the loss of credibility caused by the misconduct of a few American soldiers. This is a mission in trouble.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BASH: Now, the president for his part did acknowledge the fact that these are difficult days, as he put it. And that the -- America does intend to stay the course, intend to transfer sovereignty back over to the Iraqis, still on June 30, but as Secretary Rumsfeld said yesterday, the White House, the Pentagon, they're all bracing themselves, they say, for this to get much worse because there are more pictures and even a video out there somewhere. They are trying to devise a strategy to figure out if they could do to get out ahead of it, at this point they say there's not -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right Dana Bash, from the White House, thanks very much. Well, one of the seven American's charged in the prison abuse case is Private 1st Class Lynndie England who is not at Fort Bragg North Carolina. Among other things she's accused of committing an indecent act and of assault. The latest on that story from Elaine Quijano at the Pentagon -- Elaine

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Fredricka. Well, as this investigation continues to unfold, new charges now against another soldier, as you said, 21-year-old Private 1st Class Lynndie England now included among those who are facing charges filed by the military. As you said, multiple charges against England, including committing an indecent act, assaulting Iraqi detainees on multiple occasions, and conspiring with another soldier to maltreat the Iraqi detainees.

Now, England is the seventh soldier charged in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Her face appears in the now infamous photos taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. Her family maintains that England did not act on her own, they continue to defend her and suggest that unnamed superiors were also involved.

JESSICA KLINESTIVER, PFC LYNDIE ENGLAND'S SISTER: Certain people in the Army have told her to do what she did, I mean, she follows orders, that's what her job in the military is to do, to follow orders of her superior officers.

QUIJANO: Now, her family also says that England did not have training as an MP, a military police officer. They say this is not illustrative of the type of person that Lynndie England is. She is, now as you said, Fredricka, a soldier at Fort Bragg in North Carolina -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Elaine Quijano at the Pentagon. Thanks very much.

Well, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld dropped a bombshell on lawmakers during his testimony yesterday. He says there are more pictures, and video of prisoner abuses in Iraq. As Jamie McIntyre found out, those abuses include more humiliation and torture.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Pentagon says there are many more photographs, even videotapes of prisoner abuse. Which Defense Secretary Rumsfeld described as "blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman."

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Apparently the worse is yet to come, potentially, in terms of disturbing events.

MCINTYRE: But there are no plans to release them.

DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse. That's just a fact. I mean, I looked at them last night, and I -- they're hard to believe.

MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld said it was his personal failure not to insist on seeing the pictures months ago.

RUMSFELD: I see no one in the Pentagon had seen the, and they were part of that investigative process. It is the photographs that gives one the vivid realization of what actually took place, words don't do it.

MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld still hasn't seen the videos, but report by an army general who investigated the abuse, gives a hint of what's on them. It refers to videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees, and forcing male detainees to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped. Rumsfeld critics say it's a mistake to allow the bad news dribble out.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: With all due respect to investigations ongoing and panels being appointed, the American people deserve immediate and full disclosure of all relevant information, so that we can be assured and comforted that something that we never believed could happen, will never happen again.

MCINTYRE: Among the abuses still under investigation: beatings, a possible murder, and even the rape of an Iraqi female prisoner by an American military police officer. Allegations that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today described as "radioactive."

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Caring for the hurt, we'll give you a rare inside look at the MedEvac flights that carrying the wounded out of Iraq.

Plus, finding work: New jobs being created. But where are they? The details when CNN LIVE SATURDAY continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: The fire fights, attacks, and ambushes in Iraq have left thousands of American troops wounded. The medical attention they receive can be immediate, but often the wounded need more care than they can get in the field. CNN was given rare access to MedEvac flights that carry the wounded out of Iraq to medical treatment in Germany and, in some cases, back to the United States. Beth Nissen rode along to track the long and complex process of helping those hurt in war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Thirteen hundred hours, Ramstein Air Force Base in Germany. On approach, the day's medical evacuation flight from downrange, a C-141 Starlifter bringing in sick and wounded troops from Iraq.

CAPT. DAN LEGERE, MEDICAL CREW DIRECTOR: We continuously move patients out of theater. The patients that we see, most of them have trauma of one type or another from their battle injuries.

NISSEN: The war wounded, almost 20 on this flight, are all floated on to buses that will take them to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, the big Army hospital nearby. The plane is immediately reconfigured for the next MedEvac flight to carry another set of sick and wounded troops from Landstuhl to military hospitals in the U.S. for more surgery, treatment, long-term rehab.

SMSGT. RICKY SMITH, USAF PRIMARY LOADMASTER: These kids, they've done their job, and it is our job to make sure they get back to medical attention and get put back together, if you will.

NISSEN: Seventeen hundred hours: 37 patients loaded on to the plane for the long flight to the U.S. Their injuries are typical of those carried on MedEvac flights, especially in the last five weeks, gunshot wounds to the chest and abdomen, legs and arms fractured in mortar blasts, eyes ruptured by shrapnel. Two patients are in critical condition, both with spinal chord injuries. One is on a ventilator.

For the ground and flight crews, seeing so many so badly injured is hard, yet hardens their sense of mission.

LEGERE: A few things that you see will really tug at your heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just sympathize with them so much -- you know, and I just want to make sure that we do everything, everything possible for them.

NISSEN: That isn't easy on board a C-141 cargo plane, an inhospitable flying hospital. The challenges start on takeoff, especially for the critical patients.

DR. LARRY PUTNAM, USAF, CRITICAL CARE TEAM: The most dramatic thing here is when the airplane takes off and the nose pitches up, the head pitches down and kind of destabilizes things for us when that happens.

NISSEN: Changes in altitude, cabin pressure can cause drops in blood pressure. Turbulence can cause spikes in pain.

MAJ. STEVE GRIFFIN, AIRCRAFT COMMANDER: We try to watch out for it. We keep near the smoothest flight that we can for our patients. It's their comfort level we're concerned about, and we try to make it as comfortable as what we can for them.

NISSEN: Things are far from comfortable for the medical flight crew. Most crew members are Air Force reservists, Air National Guard. In civilian life, they are E.R. nurses, EMTs. At 30,000 feet, their work is the same, but working conditions are radically different. The light is dim, space is cramped, stethoscopes are useless in the roar of the C-141's engines.

TECH SGT. TIMOTHY MITZEL, MEDICAL FLIGHT CREW: We all have to wear ear plugs. We can't hear. We can't hear blood pressures. We can't hear lung sounds.

NISSEN: Crew members use monitors, use informal sign language, lean in to listen to patients. For nine hours, they work to control pain, to monitor mortar and bullet wounds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're OK.

NISSEN: To dispense comfort.

LEGERE: The kids that we see, they've all got still that great -- the spirit. You don't ever hear any of them complaining or whining or any of the things that you really would expect seeing the disfiguring and the severe injuries that these guys have.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

NISSEN: Twenty-two hundred hours: Andrews Air Force Base in Washington, D.C., patients are off-loaded onto buses bound for Walter Reed Army Medical Center or Bethesda Naval Hospital. It is hard for the flight crew, especially the older ones, to see them go.

GRIFFIN: You don't look at them as -- you know, some stranger that is on the other side of the world. You look at them as, wow, this could have been my son or my daughter.

NISSEN: There's little time for reflection. Within hours, the MedEvac missions go again, back to Germany, back downrange, back home with the latest casualties of war.

Beth Nissen, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, if you're looking for a new job this spring, things are beginning to look up. The economy is on a rebound, according to the employment report from the Labor Department, yesterday. The jobless rate for April fell for the second straight month. Nearly 300,00 new jobs were added, also the jobs number for March was revised, upward to nearly 380,000, more than 800,000 positions have been created so far this year.

Rajeev Dhawan is here with us, and he's director of the economic forecasting center at Georgia State University in Atlanta and he can help crunch the numbers and help us understand what happened, because the last time we talked about an increase in numbers, there wasn't a whole lot of optimism that this momentum would stick around. But, here's proof that it has.

RAJEEV DHAWAN, GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes. The economy is definitely on a rebound. And this rebound is very strong compared to what we were seeing six months ago.

Now remember, there were good times between October and January, February, you know, things were stable. So the executives felt comfortable in ramping up the production and trying to hire people. It takes two or three months to do that. You're seeing the effect of those good news, good times right now.

WHITFIELD: Now, we're talking about 800,000 new jobs this year alone, so far. This last month, where are we enjoying the new jobs, or the increase in jobs?

DHAWAN: Well, this time, the increase in jobs was in every sector, down from manufacturing, down to say, administrative services. The 123,000 were added in that area joint housing and manufacturing. High tech also started to gain jobs. When I crunched the numbers, the high-paying or high-tech jobs finally had a positive number in job creation. Remember, we've been losing these jobs for the last three years. So, in terms of geographically, if you look at San Diego, it's booming. If you look at D.C., it's booming. But if you look at San Jose or Atlanta, things are not so good. So geographically, people who fill it differently -- some people say, "what about me, I didn't see anything?" And some people say, "I knew it six months ago."

WHITFIELD: Well, what seems to be the common denominator for some of these geographic locations that are enjoying this good news?

DHAWAN: A little bit tough to say, but on the -- whenever there government jobs -- you know D.C. is the federal government and the spending, if you go down to San Diego, it's defense, it's part of technology, there also be shoppers next door -- you know it's a big shopping area. So things like that, so these are like medium sized metro areas, apart from D.C., it's a medium sized metro areas that are showing a lot of job growth.

WHITFIELD: This is particularly good news for the republicans, looking at five months now ahead, before re-election -- or election day. So is there any real hope, are you willing to kind of stick your neck out and say that -- you know, you think that this kind of momentum is going to continue?

DHAWAN: Yes, this momentum is going to continue. There are a couple of dark clouds on the horizon. You have the oil prices very high, you know, if they don't come down in the next three or four months, it's going to impact the consumer spending. Apart from that, we are still awaiting for the handover for the Iraq, and that has to go off smoothly. But, even if it doesn't happen, things have to calm down. And that is in the back of the minds of the executives, becomes a psychological thing, "Should I take the risks or not?" So those are the easy things, which are always there anytime you predict these things.

WHITFIELD: And since you brought up gas, that also means there are certain industries that really do rely on gas, diesel, quite heavily, and perhaps the high prices may keep them -- you know, from being able to produce.

DHAWAN: Like airlines, transportation, trucking. You know, these kind of industries are not adding jobs, you look at the health of the airlines, they're not -- that's not so good, even though the traffic is up. Because the fuel cost is taken away from the profits. But, you know, when the momentum builds up, people start feeling optimistic, it feeds upon itself. So we have to keep our fingers crossed for the next few months and hope this momentum continues.

WHITFIELD: And so you feel like this really may be an issue of being contagious?

DHAWAN: This kind of contagion is definitely very good -- you know, I mean, people are now talking about when the Federal Reserve Bank is going to raise their rates, I mean, just from a couple of months ago when we talked, they're going to hold stet I for the rest of the year. The talk is turned to, when are they going to raise the rates and how fast is it going to be. We see two months with 800,000 jobs in the last three months, that makes a big difference.

WHITFIELD: All right, Rajeev Dhawan at Georgia State University, thanks for joining us, always good to see you.

DHAWAN: Thank you for having me.

WHITFIELD: Well, the art of interrogation, an inside look at what's legal and what is not.

Plus, why one state is trying to get teenagers off the phone while driving. That story and more when CNN LIVE SATURDAY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A look at the top stories right now. America's administrator for Iraq Paul Bremer says the Pentagon was first told about possible mistreatment in January. The military launched an investigation the next day. Bremer says now "something should have been done earlier."

In southern Iraq, Two Iraqis are killed in a clash with British troops. Shooting broke out in Basra when hundreds of Iraqis gathered for a protest at an oil company building. At least five protesters and two British troops were wounded in that exchange.

Rescuers are searching in Tauntan River, Massachusetts for a woman missing in a boat accident. Three others were killed when the 17-foot boat capsized overnight. A 14-year-old boy swam to shore to get help. One of his parents is reportedly hospitalized and in critical condition. We expect to learn more shortly from a police briefing.

Seven American Soldiers face charges in the growing prison scandal. Those soldiers are military police not interrogators. CNN visited an army intelligence training center in southern Arizona where soldiers learn what, and more importantly, what not to do.

Sean Callebs has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These U.S. Army trainees are preparing to break down the enemy. They are part of a 16 1/2-week course at the army's Military Intelligence Training Center in Fort Hauchuca, Arizona. That turns soldiers, often straight from basic training, into interrogators. When he went through the school as a private, Phillip Moreno was surprised at the techniques.

PHILLIP MORENO, FMR. INTERROGATION STUDENT: People get this impression, you know, interrogation, it's this real, you know, big intimidating thing. Like a dark room, and all this -- almost like detectives, they're like pushing, you know, shining the light in your face. When really it's not, it's very methodical.

CALLEBS: Instructors and volunteers play roles and exercises that allow trainees to practice their approaches for getting information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's part of the insurgent organizations.

CALLEBS: It's more about persuasion than coercion. A sort of mental chess game built on knowing as much about a prisoner beforehand as possible. In this scene, then private Timothy Schultz (ph) tries to deflate an enemy forces prisoner whose pride is his armor against questioning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My understanding is the special forces soldiers usually fight, and put up a, you know...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't want to risk the lives of my men.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So your men, you -- do you even know where your men are now?

CALLEBS: A key part of the training is education about the humane treatment of prisoners. William Lux was an instructor at the time.

WILLIAM LUX, FMR. INTERROGATION INSTRUCTOR: The one thing that you cannot do in this course and pass is violation the Geneva Conventions.

CALLEBS: Sticking by the conventions is mandated. One instructor who asked his identity not be revealed had recently questioned al Qaeda prisoners in Afghanistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to keep in mind that they're human. And if you do forget that, then you lose some of your best tools. You will be amazed at what a kind word and a cup of hot cocoa on a 15- degree night will get you as far as information.

CALLEBS: But fear is also a persuasive human emotion, keeping people uncomfortable, and using intimidation all without any touching, experts say, are accepted practices. The limits can be ill-defined.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTEL. ANALYST: Each person is different. Each subject is different that's being interrogated. Each situation is different. And so there's a lot of unknowns there. And that's why these interrogators are taught ethics. And that's why they're taught the law of land warfare.

CALLEBS: Graduates of the course are often shipped straight to the real world of Iraq and Afghanistan where the stakes are much higher and pressure greater than in Arizona. And real information can save real lives.

Sean Callebs, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And as we just saw, military police are generally not assigned to interrogate, but army interrogators are taught to follow the Geneva Conventions.

What tactics are allowed, Greg Hartley knows. He served with special forces and taught interrogation skills to reservists, and now with Team Delta.

Good to see you, Greg.

GREG HARTLEY, TEAM DELTA: Thank you for having us.

WHITFIELD: We have heard an awful lot from, you know, family members of these soldiers who are charged, who say they simply followed orders to soften these detainees pre-interrogation. So what is fair game when we talk about military police, who are not supposed to interrogate, but instead, they're involved in pre-interrogations?

HARTLEY: The whole concept of pre-interrogation is kind of a distorted view. What MP guards are responsible for, and by the way, there are several different kinds of MPs in the military prison. They're very clearly defined processes for what they're allowed to do. And they're the jailers. The people who actually transport prisoners to the interrogations, sign over that prisoner so they now belong to M.I., and M.I. is responsible for their safety and well-being until they get back to them. What I would typically do is say I want you to watch this person. Tell me everything that he does. Keep track of him. I want to know everything there is to know about this person. So I know their patterns, I know who they are and how they think, everything. And by the way, don't befriend them. Because guards have tendency to want to talk to someone. And if I let every guard befriend that prisoner, then I can't build the same rapport I'm working on.

WHITFIELD: Does there become a real gray area between those who are involved in pre-interrogations and interrogations when, you know, the army manual field book or even Geneva Conventions say there are certain behaviors allowed during interrogation. And if any of these military officers are not privy to that kind of training, might they just borrow from some of those rules to apply that to pre- interrogation, such as the use of hoods or restricting food or having lights on?

HARTLEY: Things like restricting food and having lights on, that gets to be -- you never restrict food, that is forbidden. There are very clear delineations on what you should or should not do with regard to food. To take a step backwards, officers that interrogate. Interrogation in the army is the realm of the enlisted or the warrant officer, not the commissioned officer. So there's a real danger in that you hear all this complaining about civilian contractors. If a civilian contractor has been trained as an interrogator and has the requisite skills, I don't see a problem.

WHITFIELD: Who would do that training?

HARTLEY: This would have acquired the skills in the military. And so if you are hiring someone who just has a background in M.I., that's not enough. It would be that the equivalent of saying that someone who owns the McDonald's chain, their CEO knows everything about running a store. It's just not the same. The other concept is the regulation, the -- or FM-27-10, which is a field manual for the law (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the Geneva Conventions, clearly delineates what is not allowed. It does not tell you how to interrogate. The interrogation manual tells you what is allowed and what isn't. And inhuman treatment are neither condoned, and I forget the exact wording, nor supported by the U.S. Army.

WHITFIELD: But I also read there are some conditions, some, I guess, characteristics that are played out that are not necessarily written in the manual field book but it's kind of, you know, I guess common practice, everybody kind of goes along with, OK, these things are allowed, such as shackling of a detainee in an uncomfortable position.

HARTLEY: Well, now, the stuff we've seen where someone is demeaned to that point, and they're tied and twisted, that's not acceptable. What is acceptable is when you're dealing with a prisoner, and I'm not talking about within the compound, but as you abduct prisoners, it's a little more aggressive, that's natural, because we're protecting ourselves. You don't know who you are dealing. The hoods are primarily for transportation of prisoners, not meaning into the compound. But if I'm walking a prisoner from part A of the compound to part B, I would say this young lady, regardless of everything she's done is small of stature, and if I were facing her, and untied and free to do as I please, what damage could I do. So there is a safety issue with blindfolding. And at that time, the guards transport them very carefully, and typically their legs are not shackled, but their hands are tied for safety consideration, and that person becomes the eyes and ears of the guard -- I mean of the prisoner. And the way the interrogator would use that guard, is then the guard is the eyes and ears of the interrogator. What becomes confusing, and what I conjecture happened in this situation, as you move out of your daily role as an ordinary civilian, and into a position, we all have expectations of what a role is. And these people are not prison guards for a living for the most part. To get to a point that they are now fulfilling the role that they have in their head, and escalation begins to -- everything begins to rise.

WHITFIELD: And people forget what the rules are.

HARTLEY: Yes. And I would say if you look at the picture of the young lady with the guy on the dog chain, that begs to say to me, not the picture itself, take her out of the picture, take the man out of the picture, look at the compound. There are -- it just doesn't look like a military prison. On the other look at Camp X-ray at Guantanamo, which does looks like a well run ship.

WHITFIELD: All right. Greg Hartley of Team Delta, thanks very much for helping us understand some of the rules allowed for interrogation -- pre-interrogation as well. Appreciate it.

HARTLEY: Sure.

WHITFIELD: War news can be yours every minute of every day on the CNN Web site. The address is cnn.com.

And he spent weeks as a captive in Iraq. Now, Thomas Hamill is finally back on U.S. soil. After a daring escape from his captors, Hamill returned to Macon, Mississippi today.

Mike Brooks has more on the happy, but somewhat muted home coming.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tommy Hamill and his wife Kelli arrived here at their home this morning by private jet. They immediately got into a highway patrol car that brought them to the door of their home.

(on camera): I want to show you a little bit about what's going on outside the Hamill home. The media has set up camp here. They've put up yellow police line tape to keep the media off the front lawn of the Hamill home. On Sunday the volunteer fire department came by and draped the house in an American flag after they found out that Tommy was safe in American hands. Also, friends came by yesterday to spruce up the house. They put up a welcome home sign, red, white and blue ribbons, and used a spray washer to clean the side of the house. But as you can see, they got a little overzealous and plan on coming back today to repaint the damage they did with the spray washer. Now, tommy has not spoken to the media since he returned here to the United States. His media spokesperson, the same spokesperson who represents Jessica Lynch, says that his concern is with the troops in Iraq, and the hostages that have yet to be released.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tommy's very concerned for them. Many prayers are going up for them. Tommy's more concerned for them, probably, than he is his own self.

BROOKS: The town officials at Macon had originally planned a celebration to celebrate Tommy's safe return. They planned a Tommy Hamill day. They planned a parade down Jefferson Street, the main street that runs, through the center of Macon. But for now, those plans are on hold. Some people were disappointed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were a little disappointed. But we still think maybe we'll get to do something.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was looking forward to it.

BROOKS: You were?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was looking forward to it. I was on the planning committee. I was looking forward to it.

BROOKS: Whether or not the Celebration and parade ever take place, the people of Macon feel that their prayers have been answered.

Mike Brooks, CNN, Macon, Mississippi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: On the phone, but are their minds on the road?

Teens talking and driving. Why one state is trying to stop that.

Plus, traveling to Rome? That (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to the ancient city with a whole lot of style. Ahead on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: In health headlines, a top U.S. Scientist denies politics played a part in his morning-after pill decision. Dr. Steven Gaslon rejected over-the-counter sales for the plan B because of safety concerns for young women. Conservative law makers had pushed to keep the emergency contraceptive a prescription drug.

A new study compared with four other countries and found it the most expensive, but not always the best. The other countries had better transplant survival rates. The U.S. had more deaths linked to asthma and a higher rate of hepatitis B infections.

In New Jersey, a Dr.'s group has been blocked from publishing medical malpractice histories. A hearing one the issue is scheduled for June. The newspaper and decided until after the hearing to print the list.

A new CNN special investigates human fire eaters, sword swallowers, and other dare devils. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, explores what is humanly possible in "LIFE BEYOND LIMITS." That's tomorrow evening, at 9:00 Eastern, right here on CNN.

California legislators are raising health concerns over cell phones, that is, when phones are in the hands of a teen behind the wheel of a car.

Rusty Dornin reports on a new effort to make them hang up and drive.

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RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like many teens, when 17-year-old Anthony Gilmore gets behind the wheel, he likes to multi-task.

GILMORE: And like I can hold it and dial like this, if necessary. And, you know, the phones are fairly easy. A lot of people have speed dial sets.

DORNIN: That's worrisome to some legislators in California, who are considering a bill to ban cell phone use for drivers under 18. Teen drivers, according to the Institute for Highway Safety, are four times more likely to crash than older drivers, cell phones or no.

DEBRA BOWEN (D), CALIFORNIA STATE SENATE: I looked at the accident risk. I looked at the risk not only to the driver, but to everyone else on the road. And it was so clear that this group of inexperienced drivers poses a much greater risk than more experienced drivers.

DORNIN: Several states are considering making a similar call for drivers under the age of 21. Some teens agree that a ban might be safer, even one who couldn't put down her cell phone long enough to answer the interviewers question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you can distracted. You're not really all enough aware when you're driving for a long time. So, you know, you'll be talking on your phone and driving at the same time. So I think that's a good idea.

DORNIN: A Harvard study from 2002 says the use of cell phones leads to about 2,600 deaths and 330,000 injuries. New York, New Jersey and Washington, D.C. have banned all cell phone use by drivers. But the young are invincible or so they think.

GILMORE: As long as you're a little cautious and you pay attention, it's not very difficult to operate a hand phone while driving, no.

DORNIN: But for California's teens, law makers are considering telling them to just hang up and drive.

Rusty Dornin, CNN, San Francisco.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Coming up, love, Rome in the spring, and summertime. New things to do while visiting the eternal city. Although it's heating up there fast. Tips to make your trip more pleasurable. CNN LIVE SATURDAY will be right back.

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WHITFIELD: You don't have to be Gregory Peck or Audrey Hepburn to have a Roman holiday. Now is a time to say Ciao Roma, and take in all the sights and the sounds and the shop. The May issue of "Travel and Leisure Magazine" is all about Europe, where to go and how to save. Assistant editor Jane Bills is in New York to focus on the eternal city. Let's talk about Rome then. Everybody would appreciate that it's a romantic city, but why is now a good time to go? JANE BILLS, "TRAVEL AND LEISURE": Well, I mean, Rome is always a good time to go. Europe's a little difficult this year because, of course, it's a little bit pricey going to Europe with the exchange of the Euro right now. We found details from the New York area to about $850 round trip. You can save in other ways. It's a really good idea to try to get a connection within Europe. And, you know, it's always going to be cheaper than flying direct.

WHITFIELD: Because $850 does not sound like a deal.

BILLS: I know. The Euro is really hurting us. But in the May issue, actually, we have a whole article on how to travel affordably in Europe this summer. And one of the tips as well is, try going to London or Dublin first and then taking one of the European economy airlines like Easy Jet or Ryan Air. That will usually help. And you can spend a couple of days in Dublin or London first.

WHITFIELD:: How about the train as well?

BILLS: That's a great idea, too. We have tips for taking the train, cruises, renting a villa, anything you can think of. And It's always good to save a little money.

WHITFIELD:: Once you figure out the mode of transportation, one of the biggest expenses is your hotel.

BILLS: Right.

WHITFIELD: How in the world do you go about finding a bargain in Rome?

BILLS: Well, you can stay small family-run hotels. We have a couple of choices. Of course, we chose a luxury hotel, because you have to do it up when you're in Rome. The Hotel Hassler is beautiful. It's where are the celebrity stay. This is actually the hotel art.

WHITFIELD: I was going to say, what was that?

BILLS: Yes, this one's a little different. This is a great deal, though. This near the Hotel Hassler. It's very central. You're right near all of the shops, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which has has the Gucci and Dolce, Gabbana. Your right in the middle -- close to all the slights. This is a great hotel because it kind of mixes the old and new, where that area you're seeing right now is the lobby area that used to be the church of a former boarding school in the 1800s. So they kept some of the touches with the vaulted ceiling. But then they've got these new modern themes, like these cubes, that's the reception area. So they are really having fun. And each floor has these neon bright cultures and poetry written along the walls. It's a lot of fun. A lot of modern amenities, sauna, steam bath. It's a great place. For U.S. travelers right now, they're guaranteeing a rate of $270.

WHITFIELD: That's pretty good.

BILLS: And guarantee it won't fluctuate all summer, not withstanding the Euro. So...

WHITFIELD: Yes, that's pretty good if this is considered a luxury hotel. That's what you said right?

BILLS: Yes, I stayed here. It's very nice.

WHITFIELD: OK, if you're going to be in Rome you've also got to dine.

BILLS: Oh, yes.

WHITFIELD: So, how do you go about trying to find some of the places that aren't complete tourist traps, but you have real authentic food.

BILLS: A lot of it is just walking around and seeing where the locals are eating. One of my favorite restaurants is a restaurant called (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and this is in the Jewish quarter of Rome which is one of the oldest, most historic, beautiful places along the Tiber River. And it's got buildings from 150 B.C. dating back. So, just getting to the restaurant is great. This restaurant is great, it's been there since 1923. And it's been handed down through three generations of the same family. They've got the great Roman dish called Judean artichokes, which they basic they just smash the artichokes and then deep fry them twice. And of course, they're delicious.

WHITFIELD: Yes, you don't go there on a diet.

BILLS: Well, you never go to Italy on a diet, come on. But they have a lot of great fun. It's a real family place. You really feel like you are part of the family.

WHITFIELD: Well, I love that, you in your magazine you suggest some places to go if you want to get custom-made shoes, if you want to find the best espresso.

BILLS: Of course. There's a great place for shoes Silvano Lattanzi. There's a place in Bocca di Leone which right in the center of Rome. He's very exclusive. He only makes about 7,000 pairs a year. President Clinton is one of his customers. And he's all about small production, high quality. He will custom measure your foot. You know, you get your shoes in about two months. But if you can't wait that long, he does have shoes that are ready to go already. And he'll actually be in the New York area in mid-May at his boutique on Madison Avenue, if you want the personal touch, stop on by.

WHITFIELD: All right, well, Jane Bills, thanks very much of "Travel and Leisure Magazine." And we're all ready to book our flights and head on to Rome.

BILLS: You should. Thank you so much.

WHITFIELD: All right.

Coming up, on the front lines of the California fires. Part of our look in this week in photos. Next on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

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WHITFIELD: A very busy week. And there were many memorable images that you may have missed. Now the "Week in Pictures."

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WHITFIELD (voice-over): A terror attack in Baghdad Thursday leaves a trail of death and destruction. A suicide bomb was detonated at a military checkpoint. It was near the entrance to the green zone, the highly secure areas where coalition leaders live and work. One U.S. soldier was killed, and six Iraqis also died. At least 25 civilians were wounded.

In this country, on the front lines of fighting wildfires in the west. Thousands of acres have been scorched. Firefighters in California were defending homes against an onslaught of flames. Cooler temperatures and higher humidity helped crews contain many of the blazes.

Natural magnificence in Hawaii. A stream of fiery lava Kilauea volcano and is attracting hundreds of tourists. The lava is consuming everything in its path, inching its way to the ocean.

Have a spare $100 million? A single painting by Pablo Picasso fetched $400 million in Sotheby Bee's New York. The painting titled "Boy with a Pipe" is the most expensive ever sold at auction. The new owner is anonymous.

You could call him the luckiest man alive. A nail gun accident left this Isidro Mejia with six nails in his head. Surgeons successfully removed all of them, and he's expected to recover fully.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Still much more ahead on CNN Saturday.

In a few moments, "IN THE MONEY."

At 2:00 Eastern, CNN LIVE SATURDAY. More on the expanding Iraqi prisoner scandal, and the calls to have secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld removed.

At 3:00 Eastern, "NEXT AT CNN," concerns that electronic voting may create serious new problems in elections this fall.

But first Jack Cafferty with a preview of in "IN THE MONEY."

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