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INSIGHT

Israeli Disengagement Plan

Aired October 26, 2004 - 23:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN MANN, CNN HOST (voice-over): Unsettled. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon gets his disengagement plan adopted in the Knesset, but will he get Israeli settlers out of Gaza?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We shall bring hundreds of thousands of Israelis to the streets. We shall make sure that Ariel Sharon will not have a government. We shall make everything we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Hello and welcome.

Ariel Sharon put his plan to a vote knowing that a majority of his Likud Party's membership is against it. Many of his party's lawmakers are against it. And so are members of his cabinet. Palestinians are suspicious and violence has only escalated as the pullout draws closer, but Tuesday in Israel the Knesset voted with him, 67-45, to abandon all Israeli settlements in Gaza and four in the West Bank.

Even so, there is so much bitterness from settlers who feel the prime minister has betrayed them that it's hardly the end of the story. It may just have been the easy part.

On our program today, withdrawal under fire. We begin with CNN's John Vause.

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JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Surrounded by an unprecedented number of bodyguards, 16 in all, Ariel Sharon arrived at the Israeli Parliament with more than his political career on the line. His life is also in danger. This freshly sprayed graffiti in Jerusalem reads "We killed Prime Minister Rabin; we'll kill Sharon as well."

Outside Parliament, settlers and their supporters rally, angry that the man who sent them to the occupied territories is now telling them to leave the Gaza Strip and four small settlements in the West Bank.

Sarah Zevig (ph) lives in a Gaza settlement called (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Her sister was shot dead by Palestinian militants there two years ago. Even so, she is determined to stay with her husband and three young children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ariel Sharon send them to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and told them that they had to be a messenger of Israel and now he is -- he doesn't even think of us. He wants us just to go away.

VAUSE: The disengagement plan involves the evacuation of just 8,000 settlers out of more than 200,000, the dismantling of 21 settlements out of more than 140.

Still, for Jewish settlers in the West Bank, like Nora Lev (ph), there are real fears this is just the beginning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It will be a model to leave other places, which we certainly don't want.

VAUSE (on camera): These settlers and their supporters are warning that Ariel Sharon is tearing apart the very fabric of Israeli society, possibly bringing it closer to civil war. And while the latest opinion poll shows they're very much in the minority, they say they will continue to fight the disengagement plan to the bitter end.

(Voice-over): The end is now one very big step closer, with Israel's Parliament, the Knesset, approving the prime minister's disengagement plan, including the support of five rebellious ministers who tried at the last minute to force a national referendum. Sharon refused.

This could well be a turning point in the history of Israel. Never before has this country agreed to give up settlements built on land which Palestinians claim for a future state, but it only passed with the support of the Labor opposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They feel the decision is beginning to take shape and nobody can stop it in spite of all the considerations and calculations.

VAUSE: Almost half of Mr. Sharon's conservative Likud Party voted no. And the disengagement plan must still win cabinet approval before each of the four stages of withdrawal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just cannot see the logic behind the last year or so, when a totally new policy, alien to the very basic principles that had chance for peace and security in the before are totally lost.

VAUSE: Watching from afar, the Palestinians. With no voice in this debate, many fear this could well mean an end to a future viable state as Israel increases its hold on the West Bank.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's an Israeli issue. They will vote for an Israeli project and therefore that is -- we will wait and see.

VAUSE: So for Ariel Sharon, there are still uncertain days ahead. The protest will continue and his shaky minority government remains in government of collapse. Regardless, on this day at least the man they call the bulldozer has had his way.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANN: Prime Minister Sharon has broken with his past, split his party and gambled his government on the vote. It didn't take long to see the result. Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that he and three other cabinet members would quit unless the prime minister agrees to hold the national referendum that they have been demanding.

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BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI FINANCE MIN. (through translator): We must allow an opportunity for this. We must give everything a chance here. We are talking of opposition, not measurements, and the important thing is to come along and say ladies and gentlemen, we could break up the Likud, and we are suggesting to the prime minister that we don't break up the Likud, because otherwise the Likud would totally split.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Prime Minister Sharon said he wouldn't be swayed and he had warned even before the vote that he would fire any cabinet member who voted against the plan.

Immediately afterward, Minister Without Portfolio Uzi Landau and Deputy Minister Michael Ratzon were in fact dismissed.

Just ahead, rabbis join the debate over evicting settlers from Gaza.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They want to make us leave our homes and we're going there to show them that we care and we hope that we will continue living here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Sharon has shown a lot of courage by taking on the right and taking on the settlement movement and taking on so many of the rebels in his own party -- the so-called rebels -- and I think it's potentially a great opening for Israel and a great opportunity to start returning back to the '67 borders, or at least toward them.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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MANN (voice-over): From time to time the Israeli military dismantles settlements the government considers illegal. It expects to be deployed for similar duty in Gaza, forcibly removing settlers who refuse to go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will fight against it.

MANN: But it faces a new kind of resistance, potentially from within its own ranks. At least 60 rabbis, including a former chief rabbi of Israel, have told observant soldiers to disobey.

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Welcome back.

Former Chief Rabbi Abram Shapiro was very clear. He said Israeli soldiers are forbidden from expelling Jews from their homes. Both the defense minister and the Army chief of staff were equally clear. They said rabbis have no business disrupting the discipline and authority of the military. Presumably it will be the soldiers themselves who will eventually decide.

Joining us now to talk about that is David Harris, executive director of the American Jewish Committee.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Let me ask you first of all about these rabbis. Do they speak, do you think, for the mainstream of Israeli Jewry?

DAVID HARRIS, AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE: No, I think they speak for a distinct minority of Jews, both in Israel and around the world, and I think that point should be made very clear from the outset.

MANN: Well, having said that, how serious a challenge do they represent to the government and the military in Israel?

HARRIS: I think they do represent a challenge because I think that there are those that will pay attention to what they say, and we've seen some footage of that already, and as we know, nine years ago one misguided Israeli driven by faith assassinated the prime minister of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin.

So I think even if there are a small number of such rabbis calling for disobedience, we have to take this very seriously, and the fact that Ariel Sharon had to enter the Israeli Parliament with 16 bodyguard speaks to how seriously the Israeli security team is taking it.

MANN: Has the Israeli military per se ever faced this kind of challenge from anyone in Israel? Any group at all?

HARRIS: The only thing that I can recall, Jonathan, was after the Israeli Egyptian accords of the late 1970s, when Israel was obliged to withdraw from Sinai, and there were many settlers who said that under no circumstances would they resettle, and ironically it was then Ariel Sharon who was then the defense minister to Prime Minister Menachem Begin who was sent into Sinai to remove the settlers.

At the end of the day, Israeli democracy prevailed. So did the rule of law. And I must say that I have confidence that at the end of this day Israeli democracy and the rule of law will also prevail, but not without challenges.

MANN: Israeli is a very diverse society and a lot of Israeli soldiers would clearly follow commands from the military hierarchy rather than the advice of clergy, but there are quite devout soldiers within the military. How important are they? How many are there?

HARRIS: I can't tell you the exact number, but they form an important part of the military, of course. But at the end of the day, democracy and the rule of law have to prompt faith, at least in the way Israeli democracy is defined, and so I assume that if there are any acts of disobedience, the Israeli military will come down very quick and very hard at the outset to set an example and to send a message that this will not be tolerated.

If they don't, then I fear that this could have a contagious effect.

MANN: Well, let me ask you, is it illegal in Israel to urge a soldier to disobey a command?

HARRIS: I'm sure it is, and I'm sure disobeying a command will result in serious punishment. Israel is.

MANN: Forgive me for jumping in, there's been no punishment yet, at least not that I've heard of, against any one of these rabbis, and they've been very public.

HARRIS: I cannot speak as to the precise wording of the laws, but there has to come a point at which incitement to disobey crosses a line and results in some kind of legal sanction.

Israel at the moment is very brittle. This was a tumultuous day in the history of Israel, a very important day, one that I think historians will look back on and say was a decisive day in the process of Israel ensuring its future security. But I think at this point, the Israeli prime minister and others want to tread very carefully not to pour more oil on fire given the incendiary quality of some of the footage we've seen just a few moments ago.

MANN: There has always been, ever since Israel was founded, a tension between the secular Jews who make their homes there, who have built the state, and the more religious Jews who have done it. This is one more case.

It would seem from a distance that it's never been quite this bad.

HARRIS: I think it's bad right now, Jonathan, because we're really coming to crunch time. These are the defining issues. These are the issues on which the right and the left have always disagreed, namely what should be the future borders of Israel, and now of all people Ariel Sharon, who was elected by the right, has proved himself to be the man who is forcing the change.

This is very much of course in the spirit of Richard Nixon's move towards China and Charles De Gaulle's move to remove France from Algeria. It is a very important moment, and I think it's one that is worth celebrating.

MANN: It's not a done deal, though. There was this vote in Parliament. There will have to be, according to some accounts I have read at least three other votes, at least in the Parliament and in the cabinet, and you probably know more about the details than I do, but what are the chances that having come this far, the plan is still not going to go into effect because Israel or at least some minority within Israel won't put up with it?

HARRIS: It's very possible. I can only hope that those who oppose the plan -- and they have the right to oppose the plan in a democracy -- will channel their opposition peacefully.

Ariel Sharon has already passed two hurdles: the first the cabinet vote and now the Parliament vote today. There are more hurdles to come, but he's clearly in the driver's seat. He's clearly determined to do this. Those who along the way derided Sharon as a hard-liner, unwilling to compromise, I think have been proved wrong in the last few days, and I think having gone this far, those who know Ariel Sharon know that he will not stop now, and he'll have the support of the center and the center left to get the majorities he needs in the parliament along the way.

MANN: We have just a moment left. Let me ask you a big question and ask for a short answer. There is the possibility that I fact, at least according to one of Sharon's own advisors, this is going to freeze the peace process in place and make it impossible for the Palestinians to ever have a contiguous, successful state. Ultimately do you think Israel and the Palestinians may end up the losers because of this?

HARRIS: I've learned never to say never. I see this as a first step, a very important step, and I see this frankly as a test for the Palestinians.

If they get control of Gaza, let them prove to the world that they can govern. If they can govern, I suspect there will be more people in Israel prepared to talk about further compromise. If they can't govern -- if Gaza turns into a Lebanon of terrorism and violence -- then the Palestinians will only have themselves to blame.

MANN: David Harris of the American Jewish Committee, thank you so much for this.

We have to take a break. When we come back, more on the death threats against the Israeli prime minister.

Stay with us.

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ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MIN. (through translator): For me personally this decision is very difficult. My entire life as a warrior and as a commander, as a political figure, as a Knesset member, as a minister in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) government and as the prime minister, I have never had such a difficult decision. I know what the meaning is of a government decision for thousands of Israelis who have lived for many years in the Gaza Strip and were sent there by Israeli governments and built their houses there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANN (voice-over): Israel has never before surrendered land or settlements unilaterally. But it did give Palestinians a measure of self- rule in the Oslo Accord. For a time, many Israelis were still optimistic about Oslo, and then a Jewish extremist killed Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin over it. A small number of other Jews, including this settler rabbi, say Prime Minister Sharon deserves the same feet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he is going to die, I am not going to be sorry. Not at all.

MANN: Even in security obsessed Israel, security around the prime minister has been tightened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Welcome back.

Ariel Sharon jokes that he is too heavy to wear a bulletproof vest, but for the people around him, the threat of assassination is being treated very seriously.

A short time ago, we spoke to David Horowitz of the "Jerusalem Post."

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DAVID HOROWITZ, "JERUSALEM POST": Since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, and Israel is right now marking the ninth anniversary of that assassination, security around prominent people has been upgraded hugely, and in the last few months, because we have a prime minister, Ariel Sharon, who is championing an extremely controversial initiative, which is rejected by much of the Israeli right, and there are fears of extremism and threats to his life, security around him is very intense.

He walks in a circle of bodyguards. We have just heard in the last few hours, in fact, that the Shimvet (ph), the security service, is recommending to him that he minimize his personal appearances in the foreseeable future so that they feel better able to protect him.

So security is extremely intense.

MANN: Is he the only government official getting that kind of extra protection right now?

HOROWITZ: No, he's not. Several prominent Israelis, and not just government ministers -- other key leaders, security officials and so on, have security entourages of different sizes. I think it is safe to assume that the one around the prime minister is the most large and that the threat to Sharon is perceived to be the gravest threat.

I went to a briefing not too long ago with the head of the Shimvet (ph), of the security service, who indicated that they were really consumed by the need to protect the prime minister from potential political assassination.

MANN: Who do they think may be plotting against his life?

HOROWITZ: Well, there are I think always concerns that there would be non-Jews, that there would be Arabs who want to target Israeli leaders. There have been threats from groups like Hamas, who have had their own leaders, of course, who Israel alleges have orchestrated terrorism, who have been killed by Israeli forces.

But I think it's true to say that the threat that the Israeli security services fear the most is from a Jewish extremist, and that's because of the president. Because 9 years ago Yigal Amir, an extreme right wing Israeli who was opposed to Yitzhak Rabin's plan to relinquish territory to the Palestinians, he gunned down the prime minister and there was quite clearly a terrible break down of security. He tried a couple of times before. He had never been identified as a threat. He killed Rabin fairly easily, just by stepping up behind him and firing at close range into the prime minister's back at the end, ironically, of a peace rally in Tel Aviv. So that's where the key fear lies.

MANN: In the time since, how closely -- how -- let's just ask the simple question -- have the Israeli forces monitored Israeli Jewish extremist groups?

HOROWITZ: Well, for obvious reasons they don't give extensive briefings to journalists about their undercover monitoring activities, but plainly they try to have agents and have personnel who are in touch with the flow of opinion in extremist circles.

There are people who have been arrested. There are some people who have been held in degrees of administrative detention and had their movements restricted. There have been agents almost certainly planted in certain extremist right wing groups. There was a Shimvet (ph) agent of dubious affiliation, I would say, who was working in the far right camp prior to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and whose actual motivations and affiliations have long been the subject of a great deal of control in a sea of argument. But that's the kind of thing they do.

They infiltrate. They monitor. In some cases they try to limit the movements. They try to keep abreast of what they fear may be going on.

MANN: Are you talking? Are they working on a tiny number of people, a few people, a few dozen, at the very fringes of Israeli society? Or are these groups that would have larger numbers and be well-assimilated into Israel groups within Israeli politics.

HOROWITZ: No, it's the former. Yes, there is widespread opposition to Sharon's disengagement plan and there is a fairly substantial proportion of the Israeli public who feel that he is really not honoring the votes that he got to become prime minister. They feel his political course now is so radically different from the one they thought they were voting for.

But it is only on the very, very, very outside fringe that there is a fear of somebody taking the law into their own hands and trying to gun down the prime minister. And the problem, of course, is that the well-know, publicly speaking opponents are easy to monitor and are not the real danger.

The real danger, of course, are the people that they may not know about. People like Yigal Amir, who was not singled out and was not spotted as a potential assassin. It's the people who are quietly behind the scenes, the people who don't make phone calls and who don't send letters and who don't attend demonstrations prominently brandishing banners. Those are the ones, I think, and it is at the very, very fringe stress that the security services are worried about.

MANN; David Horowitz of the "Jerusalem Post," thank you so much for this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And that's INSIGHT for this day. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.

END

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