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NANCY GRACE

Has BTK Reemerged?; California Mother of Two Vanishes

Aired February 24, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: BTK: Bind, torture, kill. Tonight, in America`s heartland, after years of silence, has a serial killer reemerged?
And a California mother of two, a grandmother of one, vanishes into thin air. We need your help.

Then over a dozen Americans are believed kidnapped and murdered in a spot many consider to be the ultimate tourist destination.

Also the 16-year-old Idaho girl, Sarah Johnson, she`s charged with the shotgun murders of her mom and dad, well, she`s in court again today as her defense prepares to launch their case.

And then we go to a California courtroom. The Robert Blake murder defense is simply that the murder victim, Blake`s wife, was a bad girl, a tramp. Murder trial or popularity contest? You`re in the box, the jury box.

Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

First, a hard look at unsolved murders that maybe you can help us with.

John Walsh, host of "America`s Most Wanted" and a crime victim himself after the murder of his own little boy, knows these cases like the back of his hand. And tonight, with us, my friend and colleague, John Walsh.

Welcome, friend.

JOHN WALSH, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Hello, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m great, John. It`s great to have you.

Without any further ado, BTK: Here`s the back story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALSH: Police say the monster who calls himself BTK, for "Bind them, Torture them, Kill them," has murdered at least eight people in Wichita, Kansas.

We`ve been telling you about the taunting messages he`s been sending to the police and the local media. Well, he`s just sent another one. Wichita TV station, KAKE, got a postcard apparently from the killer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This letter is being treated as a possible communication from BTK. It has been turned over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The postcard arrived at the TV station just after the anniversary of the most gruesome of BTK`s crimes, the 1974 mass murder of four members of the family of Joseph Otero. And the return address on the postcard, it is 803 North Edgemoor Street, the Otero home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is one of the most challenging cases that I have ever been involved with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: John Walsh, you are an expert in "America`s Most Wanted." Do you think this is the same guy that terrorized the country 20 years ago?

WALSH: Well, the Wichita police are pretty sure and so are the FBI because of the different clues he`s been leaving. He actually, in one of the clues that he left, he actually sent some Xerox pictures of one of the women he brutalized and murdered, almost like they were crime scene photographs, and a Xerox of her license. That was one woman.

Nancy Fox, a woman that was murdered in Wichita, he actually sent her driver`s license after 30 years. So there`s almost no doubt in law enforcement`s mind, and in mine, that this low-life coward -- that this is him -- coming out after 30 years and saying, "I`m not as famous as Ted Bundy. I`m not as famous as the Hillside Strangler. I want my 15 minutes of shame, 15 minutes of infamy." And he is absolutely torturing this community and absolutely breaking the hearts of the victims` families.

GRACE: John, let me get this straight. OK, the murders, the original murders, the BTK killings, were decades ago. Then he goes silent. Now he reemerges. And did you just tell me he has recently sent cops the driver`s license from a victim many years ago?

WALSH: Absolutely. And his spree ran from about...

GRACE: Oh, God. It is him.

WALSH: Yep. I say it`s him and so does law enforcement. His spree went through...

GRACE: John, I didn`t believe it. I didn`t believe it at first. I thought this was a copy cat. But if he`s got the driver`s license from a victim 20-plus years ago, it`s him.

WALSH: Oh, it`s him. Nancy Fox was one of his victims. And he sent an envelope, left an envelope with Nancy Fox`s driver`s license. Her family and law enforcement knew that her license was in that house. And he`s given so many other clues to prove that this is this guy. His ego has taken over. And now he`s just taunting, taunting this town.

GRACE: Well, you know what, John? God willing, that`s how serial killers get caught, when their egos take over.

Why do you say that, John?

WALSH: Well, I think that, you know, he is a coward, certainly, a coward, a little weasel. I mean, the first family that he murdered, the Otero family in `74, he goes into their house and he brings in -- he likes Venetian blind cord. That`s why they call him BTK. He actually named himself BTK, bind, torture and kill.

This coward killed the father in the house that day. He killed the mother, tied them both up and tortured them. But what is the real heartbreaker of this case is the 11-year-old daughter, he hung from a pipe in the basement after he raped her and murdered the nine-year-old son. And the older teenage son came home to find his sister hanging in the basement naked, raped and murdered, his little brother in a separate bedroom, and his mother and father bound and tortured by this coward.

And this guy is a guy that can`t relate to women. He`s just a little weasel coward. But he went on from `74 to `79 to kill four more women. And he was good at it. He was cunning. He would do it sometimes in the middle of the day. He actually killed a woman, locked her three kids in the closet and they got after he left.

But he is now raising his ugly head. He`s probably between 60, 70 and saying, "I`m not getting enough credit. Come and get me. You`ll never get me." Taunting the police with all these different clues, but literally rubbing it into the face of the victims after 30 years.

GRACE: John, number one, when you mention the 11-year-old little girl, it`s hard to even discuss it with a straight face. All I can think about is my little niece. Can you imagine coming home to such a horrible thing? What became of the then-little boy that came home to find his family dead?

WALSH: Well, he is -- he has participated with "America`s Most Wanted." He`s done his only interviews with us. He had a terrible life. I think it made huge -- and this is an understatement -- huge psychological consequences for this young man. He actually just got out of jail.

GRACE: Aww.

WALSH: And that was not for something -- you know, his life has taken him down a path of self destruction. I hope he`s all right. I think he`s doing very well now, but, I mean, he is desperate. Just, for example, I was there on location a couple of months ago to really put the heat on BTK. And that`s why I`m so glad you`re doing this tonight. Because this, you know, stories drop off the headlines in a day. But Nancy Fox...

GRACE: Why? I don`t understand. Why would this story drop off the headline?

WALSH: Well, I don`t know, because, you know, I think everybody in the media business should be taunting this guy, should be helping, should be letting people know all over the United States...

GRACE: But John...

WALSH: ... that this guy is in Wichita taunting these people.

GRACE: Where`d this guy go? OK, he`s been gone over 20 years. Do you think he was in jail?

WALSH: Well, I mean, everybody can speculate that he might have been in jail for a different type of crime. He might have just said, "You know, I almost got caught like some of them do," go underground.

He may have moved to another city and killed in another city. But I`m absolutely convinced, and so are the Wichita police who have worked long and hard on this case. You know, Wichita, Kansas, police, that he is still -- he is there and he is still there. And he keeps dropping these clues off. I mean, he`s done it to two TV stations. He`s done it to the newspaper. He`s left manila envelopes in the park. He even dropped one at a UPS box. He playing this cat and mouse game...

GRACE: He`s pretty bold. He`s pretty bold.

WALSH: He`s very, very bold.

GRACE: Hey, John, what`s the...

WALSH: And you know, I hate to say it...

GRACE: What?

WALSH: No, I hate to say -- everybody says, well, he is going to slip up, he`s going to make the mistake. I don`t think he`s going to make a mistake. I don`t think he`s going to slip up. I think it`s going to have to be somebody that is watching this show or "America`s Most Wanted" and says, "You know what? It`s about time I had the guts to make the call."

GRACE: What`s the connection, John?

WALSH: "My creepy neighbor"...

GRACE: What`s the connection between all these victims? What do you think cops have?

WALSH: Well, there`s no connection, per se. It`s just that he plans out his crimes. He is a stalker-type predator. Most of them were in the daytime when he got in the house because he loves to do the binding up and the torture thing, because he is a control freak who probably hates women and can`t get along with women. And there`s no real common thread except that these people were in a neighborhood where he could commit this crime in the daytime and get away with it.

GRACE: Well, yes. And it always involves women. I would be interested to find out if it always involves mothers. I know it involved one mother. You mentioned four other women.

Also, what about the possibility you mentioned four other women. What about the possibility of DNA? You said the 11-year-old little girl, God rest her soul, was raped. What about that?

WALSH: They have good DNA. I`ve talked to them. They did a great job on these crime scenes, because lots of times we`ll get involved in a case in this day and age and they`ll look back and say the evidence has disappeared, the collection techniques weren`t great 30 years ago, or the evidence has evaporated.

That`s not the case. They have good DNA. And I want to propose something to that city, which they tried to do down in Baton Rouge with the serial killer. And that is, to go around and ask every male in that city to donate his DNA...

GRACE: Oh, good luck.

WALSH: ... to give a sample of his hair. I know. I say it, but I`ll tell you what, that it certainly would eliminate certain people.

GRACE: Look. Half the fathers don`t even pay their child support. You think they`re going to give their DNA?

WALSH: I know, I know.

GRACE: Hey, John.

WALSH: I don`t know.

GRACE: How do we help? What can we do to help you help them?

WALSH: Here`s the message that should be sent loud and clear. I don`t think that the BTK killer is going to make this crucial mistake or this blunder, because he is so smart. It`s got to be somebody -- that has done it in the past, 825 times on "America`s Most Wanted" or, for example, the Unabomber`s brother did it. Somebody has got to say, "I think that my weird cousin, my weird co-worker, or this creepy guy that I divorced years ago might be BTK."

Have the courage, step up to the plate. And no matter how ridiculous you think your assumption might be, call the Wichita police. If you don`t want to talk to police, call "America`s Most Wanted," 1-800-CRIME-TV. We don`t let police answer the phone. You want to remain anonymous. We need one good tip, one good tip.

GRACE: Well, John, it wouldn`t be the first case you`ve solved.

Everybody, John Walsh is staying with us with other unsolved homicides I want to bring to your attention.

But very quickly, "Trial Tracking": Sarah Johnson, the 16-year-old Idaho girl on trial for the double murder of her own parents, back in court today. Prosecutors say she opened fire when her mom and dad disapproved of her 19-year-old boyfriend, an illegal immigrant, high-school dropout with a drug arrest. Hello?

Today, the courtroom was cleared when bloody sheets were shown to the jury. The mom was killed in her sleep. While a blood-spatter expert is set to take the stand tomorrow morning. We`ll bring you the latest. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM MORRIS, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": This is Tom Morris with breaking news about the hunt for a serial killer. BTK has recently been sending mementos of his crimes. A package discovered at a park last month contained the driver`s license of one of his victims, Nancy Fox. This postcard arrived at Wichita TV station KAKE. On it, directions to a location where a package from the killer could be found.

This is what police discovered: A Post Toasties Corn Flakes box propped up against this street sign, weighted down by a brick. Marked on the box, the letters B, T and K.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALSH: Late last summer, investigators went looking for a mission woman off the California coast. Our Ed Miller tried to answer the questions tormenting a caring community and a very loving family.

ED MILLER, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: How could a woman, their friend and neighbor, disappear into thin air? At the center of the bizarre case is the last person they ever thought would wind up in the middle of a mystery, yet one day, Nancy MacDuckston just vanished.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: If you still have your grandmother, I suggest you love her up. A California grandmother has vanished into thin air. "America`s Most Wanted" has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": So where is Nancy MacDuckston? On August 11, 2003, Nancy decided to take a well-deserved day off from school. That morning, she drove to the ocean-side town of Davenport.

DAN DESMIDT, BELMONT P.D.: In the area up here, we found her chair and some other items up on this bluff.

MILLER: And the dogs tracked her sent down to the bottom of that cliff?

DESMIDT: The dogs tracked to the bottom of this path right here, yes.

MILLER: And then lost the scent?

DESMIDT: They lost the scent right at the bottom, yes.

MILLER: What does that mean?

DESMIDT: Well, one might assume that that means that she jumped over the cliff.

MILLER: Cops have little to go on except they know on the day she disappears, Nancy MacDuckston spends a couple of hours here in this ocean- side restaurant. She buys souvenirs in the gift shop and sits here at this very table to have dinner. But the really big clue: She is not alone.

This is a sketch of a man seen with her at the restaurant. Remember, Nancy was at the seaside cliff earlier in the afternoon. Cops say she drove about ten miles to the restaurant where she and the unknown man ate. Witnesses saw Nancy and the man leave the restaurant together around 5:30 p.m.

Although no one saw her get into her car, police believe she drove back to the cliff, because that`s where they found the car. What happened after that, we may never know.

KATHRYN BREAUX, FRIEND OF NANCY MACDUCKSTON`S: I start to imagine what could have happened and don`t even want to go there. The whole thing`s just very unsettling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To "America`s Most Wanted," John Walsh. He`s joining us with the latest.

John, what can you tell me about this missing grand-mom?

WALSH: Well, I was in that place yesterday and went to that cliff. And still, there`s not a clue what happened to this woman. I mean, her van was there. She took a day off. She ran a preschool for children, well- loved lady, 31 years of marriage, two grown children, two grandchildren. Nothing in the background, no possibilities of her, in my opinion, running away, having drug or alcohol problems. Just needed a day off.

Her car was found right by the cliff with her wallet in it with money, with her credit cards and a bunch of presents that she had thoughtfully bought for her family.

Now I think that the guy she ran into may have tracked her. The guy - - she`s such a nice person -- everybody said she always engaged people and talked with them, et cetera -- that I think he followed her. It`s very rough country. I don`t think she went into the water. All this myth about sharks, you know, chewing up bodies. We all know that that doesn`t happen...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I would think that guy is a better bet than a shark.

WALSH: Absolutely. I mean, we know from Laci Peterson case, we know in all kinds of cases where the body, if it is purposely dumped, even for people who commit suicide, the body comes up on the shore. NOAA did a whole bunch of studies about the wave patterns and the tide and the wind for those days.

GRACE: Yes?

WALSH: I say this guy grabbed her. And the real clue to breaking this case is for somebody to have the guts to say, "Who was that guy that engaged her that night and probably followed her out to that cliff?"

GRACE: Now, what it she -- she took the day off. Nobody really knows why. Then she was seen eating dinner with unknown man. Who the heck is he? That`s the guy.

WALSH: Let`s get this straight. She usually had such a stressful life of running this preschool that she periodically took these days off. This was not unusual.

GRACE: OK.

WALSH: She would go sit by the sea. She bought little presents for the family, postcards. This was not unusual behavior.

And number two, she was a very pleasant woman. I talked to everybody -- her husband was there with me all day yesterday. And, he said, you know, my wife was just one of those beautiful people that if someone came to up to her, and said, "Hey, how are you doing, da da da da" -- Nancy, you`re a former prosecutor. You know how charming these guys are.

GRACE: I do.

WALSH: You know how charming Ted Bundy was. You know how that they engage somebody.

I think it was the wrong day for this lady. She was by herself. And I think it was a predator. This Polynesian-looking guy, that we have a composite of, probably followed her back to that cliff.

And, Nancy, this is such a remote area, these cliffs, real wild part of Northern California. It would have been easy for him to grab her and easy to dispose of her. And I think that`s what happened.

GRACE: You know what? You know what? I guarantee you this guy came up to her when she was eating dinner. They talked. And he followed her from that restaurant, guarantee you.

Thanks, Elizabeth. Take a look, everybody: Asian-Polynesian, late 40s, early 50s, 5`6", 160, salt and pepper hair. Look. Have you seen this guy? It could hold the answer to a missing mother and grandmother, director of a nursery school.

What else can you tell us, John?

WALSH: Well, I`ll tell you. What the husband said to me yesterday is something that this audience has to grasp. And that he said, "The not knowing is killing us. The not knowing is the worst." And so, somebody has to know. You know, a lot of time these guys don`t brag. But sometimes they do. And we just, again, need that one tip, because everything she owned was there in that van and she disappeared and...

GRACE: You know what, John?

WALSH: ... this family is desperate to know.

GRACE: You know what, John? At least you and I have the peace of knowing what happened, OK?

WALSH: Absolutely.

GRACE: They don`t have that. Her husband doesn`t have that.

Everybody, we are trying to highlight, to spotlight some unsolved homicides before we bring you the latest news in all the courtrooms in America. We`ll be right back, one last visit with John Walsh. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t understand why he hasn`t come forward if it`s perfectly innocent. And that`s what bothers me, is because if it isn`t perfectly innocent, then there must have been some foul play, or some coercion, or something else going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Can you help us? Tonight, we are looking at pictures of a nine-year-old little girl. Look at this cute little face, Jessica Lunsford. Jessica disappeared from her bedroom Wednesday night, Citrus County, Florida. She is believed to be in danger. Right now, here`s the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF DAWSY, SHERIFF ON JESSICA LUNSFORD CASE: Tell you a little bit about this girl. She is a good student, good young lady. There`s no history of any actions like this in the past where she would just walk away, be a missing person.

We then started to run down some leads. And with that information, we felt that this would be raised from a missing person to a truly suspicious incident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: With us, John Walsh. We are trying to get help in finding nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford.

John Walsh, welcome back. What can you tell us about this little girl?

WALSH: Well, I`ll tell you that the cops are doing everything they can. And it`s big news here in the state of Florida. There was an Amber Alert about this little girl. Everybody`s run up against a rock and hard place, up against a dead end.

Now, I have got to say two things. We don`t forget that Danielle van Dam was taken out of her house in the middle of the night by a neighbor and found dead.

GRACE: And Elizabeth Smart.

WALSH: Elizabeth Smart was taken by a low-life creep who got in that house. So there has to be a parallel investigation. I think that`s going on. They have to look at every convicted sex offender in the area, use Megan`s law. Find out where these sex offenders are and interview every single one of them.

Plus they have to take a look at the family just like they did in my case where my wife and I went in for the lie-detector test. It`s grueling. It`s heartbreaking. But they have to do that.

But I believe they`re doing all that. We have been in touch with them closely. And I mean, this is a beautiful nine-year-old girl. We have got to pray -- really pray -- that what happened to Elizabeth Smart, that somebody took her and kept her, is keeping her and that we`ll get her back alive. But we`re really up against a dead end. Police in that area need a tip.

GRACE: And, John, you know as well as I do that every hour counts, right?

WALSH: Every second counts. Every second counts.

GRACE: Hey, John, I have got to go to break. I don`t want you to go. You have got to come back, friend.

John Walsh with us tonight as we go to break.

You know, we here at Nancy Grace want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Mary Lands, last seen March 12th, Marshall, Michigan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi with your "Headline Prime News Break."

Doctors are calling Pope John Paul`s emergency surgery a success. He`s spending the night at the Rome hospital where he`s recovering from a tracheotomy. This is the second time in a month he`s been rushed to the hospital with the flu.

Opening statements in the Michael Jackson child molestation trial will start Monday morning. Today, jury selection wrapped up with eight alternates being chosen. Jackson has pleaded not guilty for molesting a 13-year-old boy.

Jose Canseco`s new book could land him before Congress. At least one congressman says Canseco and the other plays he accuses of taking steroids should be brought to Capitol Hill for testimony.

And Wal-Mart won`t be expanding to the Big Apple. Plans to build New York`s first one have been scrapped because of complaints from labor unions and small businesses. The store was supposed to go up in Queens.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

GRACE: I blinked my eyes and it was all over. That`s right, the defense has rested in State v. Robert Blake.

The TV star-turned-millionaire by the show "Baretta" invoked the Fifth Amendment. Surprise, surprise. OK, he didn`t take the stand.

With us tonight, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Chris Pixley. In New York, psychologist, Dr. Anne Renee Testa. Also with us, veteran defense attorney Alan Ripka here in the studio.

Let`s get down to it.

Please, Chris Pixley, don`t tell me you ever thought this guy was going to take the stand. Last time I saw him, he was outside the courthouse strumming a ukulele in front of the camera singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow," and Judy Garland he ain`t.

CHRIS PIXLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, well, remember, Nancy, I think if Robert Blake had his druthers, he probably would have taken the stand. You know, he had his famous fight with Harland Braun. Braun left the case. You know, Tommy Mesereau was another attorney that left the case. And I think they all left because Blake wanted to speak out. Ultimately, he did speak out with Barbara Walters. So I`m not sure that this was Blake`s decision. I think finally somebody got to him and convinced him that he didn`t need to testify.

GRACE: Somebody sat on him. Somebody sat on him.

PIXLEY: That`s absolutely right. And, of course, you know, if the prosecution`s case had gone better, maybe we would have seen his testimony.

GRACE: You always have got to turn it around, don`t you, Chris?

You know, maybe he didn`t take the stand because he was afraid of the cross-examination the state would put to him on the stand.

Alan Ripka, did you ever have a doubt this guy would not take the stand?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I thought he may take the stand. But I`ll tell you this: I don`t think he had to. And especially, you know, with the way the...

GRACE: Wait, wait. OK, you know what? Let`s just get real for a moment.

RIPKA: Go ahead.

GRACE: I think they put up three different guys to say Blake tried to hire them to kill her. Now, what were you saying about the state not proving its case?

RIPKA: Well, first of all, Nancy, one of them was on drugs. Secondly, these two people...

GRACE: Well, what about the other two?

RIPKA: Well, you know something...

GRACE: You don`t like them either?

RIPKA: Well, it`s not that I don`t like them. But there`s no physical evidence. He didn`t have to take the stand.

GRACE: What about three people all saying the same thing, separated in time and space?

RIPKA: Well, again, the prosecution has to prove their case. They may have those two witnesses claiming what they claim, but they have no gun evidence. They have no evidence of him shooting the gun, no witnesses that saw him...

GRACE: He had gunshot residue on his hands.

RIPKA: You heard the expert testimony, Nancy.

GRACE: He said very little, but he did have gunshot powder residue.

PIXLEY: And, Nancy, all of these issues are just ludicrous. I mean, first of all, these three witnesses, you`ve got -- you know, two of them are the stuntmen, have both lied before and during the preliminary hearing. One of them runs a crystal meth operation out of his pool house.

GRACE: OK, I`ve got a question for you.

PIXLEY: He`s paranoid delusional. The other one has his own wife and son get on the stand and say, "This guy can`t be trusted. And, by the way, he`s been in and out of psych wards just in the past six months alone."

The third one, actually, the last time he talked to Robert Blake was before Bonny Lee Bakley got pregnant with their child. So why would Blake be asking him to murder a woman that he didn`t need out of his life? They fell apart.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you two things, Chris.

Chris, number one, have you ever told a lie? Just answer.

PIXLEY: Absolutely. Absolutely.

GRACE: Well, haven`t we all? Does that mean we can`t be trusted on the stand? I would believe you.

PIXLEY: OK...

GRACE: Are you saying you wouldn`t believe me, Chris?

PIXLEY: Nancy, look it: Credibility is an issue that...

GRACE: Yes, blah blah.

PIXLEY: ... every juror has to resolve. Are you going to try to say that these witnesses were credible?

GRACE: Yes.

PIXLEY: Let`s talk more about what they had to say.

GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on. Before you start your sermon, let me go to Dr. Anne Renee Testa.

You know what? They do have a point. None of these three are -- you know, we don`t have nuns, and priests, and virgins in the courtroom. Who do you people think Blake was hanging out with? Would you approach a nun and ask her to pull a hit on your wife? Of course he dug up the bottom of the barrel.

ANNE RENEE TESTA, PSYCHOLOGIST: Sure. Sure. And they were approached. And I think that they were good witnesses.

And, you know, Chris, I have a crush on you. I just want to say, but I disagree with you. I really do.

GRACE: OK, crushes aside.

TESTA: Is that OK?

GRACE: Yes, it`s OK.

What do you think about the theory that three different people would lie about him approaching them?

TESTA: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

GRACE: And then, amazingly, she turns up dead.

TESTA: You know, I can`t believe that the jurors would be that naive, Nancy, you know? Really.

GRACE: Well, you know, you win or lose the case in jury selection always.

TESTA: Yes, absolutely.

GRACE: So I`m not sure if they`ll buy it or not. But I was really surprised. I thought that Robert Blake could overcome his lawyers and take the stand.

TESTA: You think so? I think that he would be found out on the stand. I do.

GRACE: What about it?

RIPKA: Well, I think, at the end of the day, when the lawyers get you in a room and they say, "Hey, look, we may have this case beat. We can only go downhill if you get on that stand because they`ll bring up everything in the world that doesn`t apply to this case." He decided, "Maybe I ought to listen to my lawyers." And he made a good decision.

GRACE: Well, you know, the tricky thing is, Chris Pixley, is that, even though he for once kept his mouth shut and didn`t take the stand, the reality is, the state cannot argue that in closing arguments. If they say one thing about him remaining silent, immediate mistrial, possibly with prejudice. Why?

PIXLEY: Yes. And, well, the best part about all of this, Nancy, though, actually is that they did get his testimony in because, of course, he had that famous interview with Barbara Walters. And ultimately, in making the statements that he made to Barbara Walters, they encapsulated his testimony...

GRACE: But that`s not what I asked you.

PIXLEY: Why? Because, in California, your exercise of your Fifth Amendment right cannot be used as a presumption against you.

GRACE: ... against you.

PIXLEY: It can be in Georgia where you and I practice, Nancy. So different rules.

GRACE: Actually, when I was practicing law in Georgia, any comment on someone`s Fifth Amendment right to remain silent would result in an immediate mistrial. In fact, a veteran prosecutor, a friend of mine, commented in opening statement that the defendant refused to speak to police. Over. They didn`t even put the first witness on the stand, Pixley, because he commented in opening statement that the guy exercised his Fifth to police.

PIXLEY: Yes.

GRACE: So here the prosecutors don`t even get to enjoy the fact that this guy clammed up.

Another issue, Alan Ripka, is that I think it`s best for the judge to put on the record, swear Blake in outside the jury`s presence, and make him say, "I voluntarily chose not to take the stand. Nobody made me remain silent." Why?

RIPKA: Yes, because, certainly, the judge does not want this defendant, should he be convicted, claim ineffective assistance of counsel and claim that he wanted to take the stand, he said it all along, and his lawyers told him he could not.

GRACE: I have got a question for you, Chris Pixley.

Robert Blake, "Baretta," says that he was in the restaurant with his wife and somehow he had his gun in his waistband and he didn`t notice it was going down his leg in his pants. And I`ve got to tell you, Chris, if something was going from my crotch to my ankle, I think I would notice, all right? He says he didn`t realize anything had happened until he got out to the car.

PIXLEY: And, again, you`re pointing out some of the reasons why it may have been difficult for the defense if he had taken the stand. Right now, the jury is left to wonder whether he left it on the seat...

GRACE: I smell something and it`s his story.

PIXLEY: ... or what he was doing with the gun and why he may have left it behind. But, you know, there`s the other issue, though, Nancy, and it`s already been raised...

GRACE: You don`t want to talk about that...

PIXLEY: ... but there`s no gunshot residue here.

GRACE: ... not feeling a gun going from your crotch to your ankle. You know, it`s preposterous. No wonder he didn`t take the stand. With that much, I agree with you, Chris.

PIXLEY: I`ll talk about it. Maybe he took it out in that point in time, laid it on the seat next to him. Again, we don`t know, because we don`t have his testimony and so the jury can`t really speculate.

TESTA: He`s guilty.

GRACE: What about baby Rosie? All this trashing the victim, it`s horrible.

TESTA: Oh, yes. What was his motivation? What was his real motivation here?

GRACE: Hatred. What about hatred?

TESTA: Hatred, hatred of Bonny Lee Bakley. OK, she married him. She married him, stardom and all the rest, and she wanted some money and everything. But, frankly, I don`t think that was it. I think it`s a really crazy set of facts here. I think his daughter wanted a child.

GRACE: OK, OK, you are going conspiracy on me. Bring in the nut squad.

TESTA: Oh, yes.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. He didn`t even want this baby. He wanted her to have an abortion. We heard that on a taped phone call.

TESTA: Yes.

GRACE: So suddenly, when he sees baby Rosie, who looks just like him, exactly, as if he spit her straight out of his mouth -- he suddenly loves the baby and hates Bonny Lee Bakley, hates her.

TESTA: You think he suddenly hated her? I think he hated her all along.

GRACE: I think he has got a problem with women.

TESTA: She was a controlling woman. And I don`t think she deserved to be murdered.

GRACE: Controlling? If she was controlling, why was she living in the guest house and he was in the mansion?

TESTA: Who knows?

GRACE: Well, I don`t see her as controlling.

Our panel is going to stay right here.

Very quickly, "Trial Tracking" on a brand-new case for you tonight. A 27-year-old phys-ed teacher out of Tennessee accused of 15 counts of sexual battery, 13 counts statutory rape involving a 13-year-old student. When will it end?

At formal arraignment today, Turner pled not guilty. Trial set, November 15th.

And tonight, our thoughts and prayers remain with the family of Lisa and Jayden Underwood. Remember the pregnant mom and her seven-year old found in a swampy makeshift grave? Here`s the shot of the memorial set-up at the bagel shop Lisa owned. Her ex-boyfriend, he`s under arrest.

When we come back, the latest on Underwood. Tonight, the boyfriend has a supporter who says he`s not guilty, his wife. That`s right. Underwood`s boyfriend, married.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GENE JONES, FORT WORTH POLICE DEPT.: Trust me. We were personally invested in this case. We were motivated by these two individuals. This is what drove us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: ... bars on $2 million bond. And her little boy Jayden.

(OFF-MIKE) swears is not guilty, Underwood`s ex-boyfriend. Who is that? It`s his wife. (OFF-MIKE) to you, wife says he`s not guilty. But she also has spoken to the press.

She says her husband told her he went to Underwood`s home Friday night to talk to Underwood about the pregnancy and child support -- child support, Anne Renee, rearing its ugly head again -- that he wanted to talk to her. She argued with him, yelled at him, kicked him, hit him, and she wouldn`t stop, says he. She just blew her husband-wife privilege.

RIPKA: Well, that`s true, but she`s defending him. She doesn`t -- first of all -- she doesn`t believe he did it.

GRACE: But it doesn`t matter if she`s defending him. She blabbed to the press in Fort Worth, Texas. So all of the things that she`s been talking about to the press can now come into evidence. There`s no protection.

RIPKA: Well, that`s absolutely true, but if it`s going to help him, and she`s going to stand by his side...

GRACE: Well, how does that help, that they got into a physical confrontation?

RIPKA: Because she is willing to say, "Look, I`m going to stand by my husband. I don`t think he killed her. He admitted to me he was having this affair. He was going the talk to her about child support. He went over there and they had a confrontation. And that was the end of it." And when your wife stands by you, that`s going to be very helpful, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, hold on. Let me stick this new mike on.

Big question though, what I don`t understand is how you can possibly say boyfriend admitting he had a physical confrontation with dead girl, how does that help him?

RIPKA: Well, the bottom line is this: It certainly doesn`t help him that he was there at all and the fact that his wife puts him at the scene. But you`re asking me about the relationship. And the fact that his wife is helping him, it`s got to do something.

TESTA: What does it do? What do you think it does? What do you think it does, that his wife is helping him? Everyone was going to say it`s his wife.

RIPKA: Well, his wife would say, "Look, my husband was having an affair. She might as well let him go, let him go to the chair."

GRACE: OK, OK, OK, OK, you know what? That means nothing to me. The wife has now blown marital privilege.

Chris Pixley, explain to us how she blew the marital privilege and what it is.

PIXLEY: Well, anytime she starts talking about the relationship and conversations that are had in that relationship, now you don`t that marital privilege, which is protected communications along the lines of attorney- client privilege.

But I have got to take issue with what`s being said here. With all due respect, I mean, attorneys` first order of business in this case is to silence the wife. She has actually told the Texas newspaper that Lisa Underwood was harassing her husband, in which case, as you`re alluding, Nancy, she is walking him right into the death chamber because that now helps set up motive and premeditation.

Intent is now established in her statements. The best thing that -- the first thing that counsel needs to do is to get her to stop talking to the newspaper.

GRACE: You know, Barbee says -- and this is to the press, OK -- note, when the press is thronged outside your front door, don`t go out there. The wife of Stephen Barbee goes out there, speaks to the press and says her husband told her he was not sure the child was his and that Underwood had been threatening to tell her about the baby.

And more important in my mind, Chris Pixley, she places him by his own words at Underwood`s home at the time Underwood is killed. There`s no way out.

PIXLEY: Yes. It`s just crumbling around him. You have got Dodd, his friend, that says I took him there, who also sees the bodies.

GRACE: Oh, yes.

PIXLEY: He`s given a statement to the police. You have got -- obviously, you`re going to have physical evidence at the scene, as well as physical evidence on the bodies. You know, so even if you get the luck of chance that there`s some Miranda violation or there`s coerced confession here, physical evidence is going to support this.

GRACE: OK, hold on. You brought up Dodd.

Eli, can you bring me that arrest warrant, dear? OK, Dodd is the guy that for some reason was driving Barbee around. He runs out of gas. Dodd comes and gets him. He opens up the trunk. In the back of the trunk is a dead pregnant lady and a dead seven-year-old boy.

Oh, there`s the glamour shot I`ve been waiting on. OK. This is Dodd, Barbee`s friend. I don`t know if he was involved with the murders. Doesn`t sound like it, but it sounds to me he aided and abetted after the fact.

Listen, Anne Renee Testa, you`re a shrink. If somebody opened a trunk and I saw a dead pregnant lady, I would run screaming for the hills.

TESTA: I was just going to say...

GRACE: ... definitely on my cell phone dialing 911. This guy`s like, OK, cool. And they drive off together.

TESTA: How is that? I mean, I don`t get that. I don`t get this guy.

GRACE: Tragic.

TESTA: And, you know, I think about his wife. Do you think somewhere in there underneath it all that his wife is doing something that`s really self-destructive. Even though she says...

GRACE: No.

TESTA: ... he`s wonderful, he`s a good man, I love him, I love him, he never would have done this. But look at all the stupid mistakes she`s making.

GRACE: No. You know what?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That is why defense attorneys always say, "Number one, don`t speak." I`m sure the wife did not realize what a big booboo she was making.

What we`re talking about is Stephen Barbee, the chief suspect in the Underwood slaying, the wife goes out and gives a huge statement to the press incriminating her husband. Now, at court, none of that would have come into evidence because it`s husband-wife communications, the marital privilege like priest-parishioner, attorney-client, that cannot come into evidence.

By her telling a third party, the paper, there`s no more privilege. She`s ruined it.

If you`re listening tonight, you ruined it.

Right here, Dusty, are you in with me? I want to show you, in this arrest affidavit, here are the facts that the cops swore to. In every paragraph, Dodd is in there, Ron Dodd. I still don`t know, though, why he was arrested. There was a probation violation, a parole violation.

Alan Ripka, it can`t be good if he is on parole. That means he`s got a felony.

RIPKA: Yes, absolutely.

And well, they`re going to -- if he cooperates with the prosecution and gives them all that he needs, I don`t think that this violation`s going to make any difference whatsoever, especially if he helps put this guy away. So I wouldn`t be so concerned about that.

GRACE: Well, I want to know what happened to Dodd, the friend. He sees the dead bodies in a trunk. He`s driving Barbee around. The bodies end up buried in a swampy grave. If he helped bury those bodies, he is going to jail.

RIPKA: Well, absolutely. There`s a conspiracy to commit a crime here. He`s well aware of it. He`s not turning him in. He`s not calling the cops. He`s driving around with them and seemingly not surprised by the situation.

GRACE: I`ve got 15 seconds left.

Death penalty, no death penalty?

TESTA: Death penalty...

GRACE: Death penalty?

TESTA: ... no doubt in my mind.

GRACE: And in Texas, I don`t think that an unborn child, as in California, qualifies for mass murder. But you have Jayden, the seven- year-old little boy.

I`ve got go to a quick break. Everybody stay with me. My panel is still here.

Some of you are headed to local news. For the rest of you, we will be right back. And remember, I will bring you live coverage of the Sarah Johnson trial tomorrow at 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim, if you know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888-472-2301, or visit our Web site at CNN.com/Nancygrace.

Also, I want to remind you, we here at Nancy Grace want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Mary Lands, last seen on foot on a cold March 12, 2004, Marshall, Michigan.

If you have any information on this girl, Mary Lands, take a look. Please call Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

Again, welcome back. Let`s do a round-up.

Chris Pixley, find thoughts?

PIXLEY: Well, when we talk about Barbee, I think the best that he can hope for right now is that there`s a heat of passion defense that he can actually establish.

If he does, I think possibly, possibly, and it`s a long shot, takes him down to a second-degree murder conviction which means that he might only get 20 years for each of these crimes. I think they probably would be served consecutively.

GRACE: You know what, Chris? This one time, I agree with you. What about, Alan Ripka, the best he can hope for is a second-degree?

RIPKA: No, I think you may be right in this case, Nancy. But remember, this is Texas. They do execute. They still have to prove their case. And they`ve got a lot of work to do.

GRACE: They`ve got a lot of work to do from this point on.

Very quickly, Anne Renee Testa?

TESTA: I think so simply about it. He killed two people, and he deserves to get the death penalty. I really do. I do, Nancy.

GRACE: Short and sweet from Dr. Anne Renee Testa.

All of our panel will be joining us again as these cases progress. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I want to thank you for being with us, inviting us into your home.

Coming up, the latest headlines from around the world. But I`ll see you right back here tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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