The Web      Powered by


Return to Transcripts main page


NANCY GRACE for April 22, 2005, CNNHN

Aired April 22, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a mom walking her children to a local ice cream store, when out of nowhere comes a car up over the curb, slamming into the family, killing the two children almost instantly. And then, icing on the cake, according to the police, the car`s driver none other than a local nanny they say was high on alcohol and painkillers. P.S., she was on her way to work to take care of another child, an infant.
And will Michael Jackson`s ex-wife Debbie Rowe take the stand next week?

And day seven, still no word from a missing Pennsylvania prosecutor.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Before we head out to California and the Michael Jackson trial, I want to clear up an issue. On Wednesday night`s show in a discussion about the disappearance of Danielle Imbo and Richard Petrone, there were statements that could be interpreted suggesting that Danielle`s estranged husband, Joe Imbo, was a suspect or otherwise involved in this couple`s disappearance.

As far as we know, no press, no police, no other source have linked the husband to the couple`s disappearance. He is not a suspect. We regret any misunderstanding that resulted.

On a further note, CNN spoke to Joe Imbo`s mother, Pat Cuomo (ph) and her husband who happens to be a retired police officer, Mike Cuomo. Both confirmed Mr. Imbo`s alibi. He was with them at police detective Alex Schuerer`s (ph) home the night the couple disappeared.

Now, to tonight. It is day seven. Pennsylvania veteran felony prosecutor Ray Gricar still missing. Seven long days ago, he drove to the mall. He never came back. Depression? Or did some criminal he put away years ago get out and come back for revenge?

And imagine, your own nanny in charge of your most precious possession, your children, drinking, taking painkillers and then running over and killing a 10-year-old boy, a 7-year-old girl on the way to your house and your kids.

And we go to California for the latest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Tonight, in West Tampa, Florida, defense attorney Joe Episcopo here in New York, defense attorney Tony Locascio and forensic psychologist Dr. Michael Nuccitelli.

But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent in California, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, what a week in the Jackson trial. Bring us up-to- date. And what comes next?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, we have learned at "Celebrity Justice" more about this bomb-shell witness for the prosecution. We were the first to break this story, and we have got more information about what Rudy Provencio might say when he takes the stand next week.

This was a friend of one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, Mark Schaffel. He was brought into this group because he knows a lot about the music business. He is a very careful journal-taker. And he allegedly took journal notes during the entire time of the alleged conspiracy.

And we have learned that he is expected the get on the stand and say that he heard Michael Jackson and the alleged co-conspirators discussing a plan to get rid of this family, to take them to Brazil on a one-way ticket. Apparently, they researched it and found out, with certain visas, you can`t just get a one-way ticket, you have to get a roundtrip.

But nevertheless, he says he heard them say he wanted them to go to Brazil. They wanted the family to go to Brazil. And they wanted to dump them there. And that will be very crucial testimony.

GRACE: You know, another thing that complicates the whole thing, Jane Velez-Mitchell, this guy`s going to testify to the one-way ticket to Brazil for the mom and her children. But you know that travel agent, Cynthia Montgomery?


GRACE: She was the one I believe that actually booked that one-way ticket to Brazil. She is not going to testify because she`s taking the Fifth?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is true. They have knocked out her testimony. The judge said, you know, there`s just too much baggage with this particular witness. She`s involved in a huge legal battle with Michael Jackson over the whole extra jet flight.

You remember when he came...

GRACE: Oh, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... to Las Vegas and surrendered, and there was a videotape secretly recording him on the flight. And that turned into a mega, mega legal battle. She is swept up in the middle of that. And the prosecution wanted to be able to question her without getting into any of the extra jet issues. And the judge said, "No way."

GRACE: Yes, yes.

And Joe Episcopo, that`s predictable. You can`t take the Fifth like you`re picking chocolates out of a box. Oh, no. You take the fifth or you don`t take the Fifth. You can`t get on the stand and talk about some things and then say, oh, "I take the fifth to that," when it gets hot in the kitchen, right?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, apparently the mother of the accuser did that. Remember, she took the Fifth on the welfare fraud and was still able to testify on everything else, so maybe you can.

GRACE: Joe, what`s the rule of law?

EPISCOPO: Pardon me?

GRACE: What`s the rule of law in general?

EPISCOPO: What, on the Fifth amendment?


EPISCOPO: You can only take the Fifth Amendment if you`re going to incriminate yourself. You cannot take it if you`re just an ordinary witness.

GRACE: Have you ever had a case where someone took the Fifth Amendment selectively?

EPISCOPO: Yes. And we objected to all the other testimony and asked to have it stricken.

GRACE: I`m very -- yes, I`m very, very suspicious as to exactly why they`re banning the testimony of this travel agent. I agree with you.

But I do believe that this judge may say, "Either take the Fifth 100 percent." It`s like the camel`s nose in the tent. His tail will surely follow, Joe. I think that was Melville`s reasoning.

Take a listen to this.


MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: Well, what`s wrong with sharing your bed? I didn`t say I slept in the bed. If I did sleep in the bed, it`s OK. I am not going to do anything sexual to a child. It`s not where my heart is. I would slit my wrists first.


GRACE: That`s from Jackson`s first public response to the child molestation charges. We are live in California bringing you the latest.

You know, Jane Velez-Mitchell, I know this jury saw the Bashir documentary. Did they see that response by Jackson?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes. They watched the Bashir documentary. And I have to tell you, that was one of the most bizarre moments ever in the courtroom, sitting there with Joe Jackson right in front of me and there, Michael Jackson is on the big screen talking about how his father beat him.

It was truly bizarre. Had they seen the whole rebuttal video? No. They have not seen that. They`ve been inundated with video. This is a very video-rich trial, and some of it has been very, very colorful.

GRACE: Here in the studio with me, Dr. Nuccitelli.

Doctor, explain to me why someone would want to sleep with children, not relatives, not really necessarily even friends of the family, not his own children.

DR. MICHAEL NUCCITELLI, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I mean, the first thing -- the first response would be, number one, he would be possibly a pedophile. If we were to rule out that he`s a pedophile, we`d have to say that he`s an awfully bizarre gentleman to want to sleep with children. I mean, it would be one thing if it was your own child and you`re the parent.

GRACE: And it`s always boys. Is there any evidence, Jane Velez- Mitchell, that he sleeps with little girls, that they all get in the bed together?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there is little girl who is mentioned quite frequently and comes up on the security logs as visiting with her relatives who were also there. But there`s no information or evidence that she slept in Michael Jackson`s bedroom.

There has been testimony from a whole bunch of former employees that the only people that they saw sleeping overnight in Michael Jackson`s bedroom were boys.

GRACE: Doctor?

NUCCITELLI: Well, the other thing, too, that concerns me about Michael Jackson is the age of the children. It`d be one thing -- I mean, not to say that it would be appropriate, but he was sleeping with children that are from 10 to 13. And usually pedophiles choose certain age brackets. We don`t have Michael Jackson inviting over 4- and 5-year-olds, females, or...

GRACE: What does that mean to you as a shrink, because he always picks the same-aged kids?

NUCCITELLI: Well, usually pedophiles choose certain age brackets. So that concerns me. So that would lend me to believe that sexual molestation did exist.

GRACE: I`m asking for an innocent explanation. I`m searching. Why would a 40-, 45-year-old guy -- forget about climbing up in the tree, forget all that -- but why would he want to sleep with kids if he is not having sex with them?

NUCCITELLI: Without getting too psychodynamic, I mean, his explanation would be...

GRACE: Right. There you said psychodynamic. I don`t even know what that is. Break it down.

NUCCITELLI: Well, basically, is that perceives himself as a child himself. And he has mentioned in the past that he did not live his own childhood. So in a real psychoanalytic way, he perceives himself as a child. He`s emotionally and developmentally acts like a child. So this is his age range. This is his contemporaries.

GRACE: You know, we`re going to take a quick break, everybody. We have got to go to break right now.

It has been in the headlines for weeks. A woman claims she went to a San Jose, California, Wendy`s and bit into a human finger in her bowl of chili. Well, today, Anna Ayala, arrested. Cops say she made the whole thing up and she is cooling her jets behind bars tonight.

Estimates are floating that this one alleged lie caused Wendy`s business to dip 20 to 50 percent in that area. Incredible. This is what she Ayala had to say earlier on national TV, "Good Morning, America."


ANNA AYALA, CLAIMED FINGER WAS IN WENDY`S CHILI: And suddenly I chew something that`s kind of hard, crunchy. Spit it out. At first I wasn`t sure what it was.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: They conducted what we called an ingredient trace-back investigation to determine if the finger involved in this case may have actually been introduced into the chili somewhere in the production or preparation processes.

Thus, the case became what could be best described as a "CSI"-type of an investigation, with included both the forensic examination of fingertip tissue, as well as some excellent gumshoe detective work.


GRACE: OK. So there`s actually a finger involved? Whose finger? Police say the attempted grand theft charge relates to the money that Wendy`s lost when business took a nosedive. We`ll be right back.



MACAULAY CULKIN, ACTOR: Nothing happened, you know? I mean, nothing really. I mean, we played video games. You know, we played in the amusement park.

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: You sleep in the bed?

CULKIN: Even the go, oh, you slept in the same bedroom as him. It`s like, I don`t think you understand. Michael Jackson`s bedroom is two stories and it has like three bathrooms and this and that. So when I slept in his bedroom, yes, but you have to understand the whole scenario.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us this Friday night.

Straight back out to California. Jane Velez-Mitchell, is it true? Is Macaulay Culkin going to testify for the defense?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, my understanding from our sources is that he really doesn`t want to. He doesn`t want to get involved in all of this. However, he`s been told by the defense, our sources say, we can do it the easy way or we can do it the hard way. You can come in voluntarily or we can get an out-of-state subpoena and force you to come in. And so, I think one way or another, he probably is going to testify, yes.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jane.


CULKIN: Look what happened to him the first time, the first time this happened to him. You know, if someone had done something like that to my kid, I wouldn`t just settle for some money. I would make sure the guy was in jail, you know?

And it just really goes to show. I mean, as soon -- you know, they got the money and they ran. I mean, that`s really what happened the first time. And so, you know, I don`t know.

It`s a little crazy. And I kind of have taken a step back from the whole thing because it is a bit of a circus. And you know, if the same thing was happening to me, I wouldn`t want to drag him into it, and vice versa.


GRACE: But on the other hand, I see where Culkin is coming from. The age he was at the time of the alleged molestation -- isn`t it two witnesses, Jane Velez-Mitchell, that claim thus far they saw Culkin being fondled?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, approximately. And of course, there`s also a report that there may be two other young men who may come in for the defense, men who were mentioned kind of peripherally as young boys who other people, like Blanca Francia, one of the housekeepers, who said she may have seen something inappropriate.

Word is that those other two may also come up for the defense and speak. And that`s going to be a triple threat, because if three young men who were brought up in the past acts get up and say nothing happened, boy, that`s not good for the prosecution.

GRACE: Now, I understand a defense witness has been arrested for sex with a minor?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Everybody in this case has got a lot of baggage.

GRACE: You know what, Jane Velez? I`m going to check out your rap sheet. I haven`t done that yet. You`re in the courtroom. You`re part of the case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The trial is young. Who knows by the end of it? There could be a high-speed chase down to Santa Maria.

GRACE: After the show, get Elizabeth your DOB and Social, OK? OK, go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, anyway, this is the young man, Elatab is his name. And he`s been all over the media praising Jackson, saying nothing ever happened to me. I spent a lot of time with him. He was a potential defense witness. Still is, possibly.

And he was arrested very recently in New Jersey charged with having underage sex with an under-aged girl. He says it was totally consensual, but apparently the story is that he somehow brought up Michael Jackson in the conversation during the alleged seduction, saying he had seen Michael Jackson seduce a girl or a woman. And he says he was just saying that Michael Jackson was a smooth operator.

GRACE: To Tony Locascio, defense attorney. Tony, I said earlier today, the defense team should get down on their knees and thank God in heaven for the gift that fell on their head when that Vaseline incident didn`t come in. Want to explain that one?

TONY LOCASCIO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure. As a defense lawyer, I`m glad that didn`t go in. But you know what, Nancy? It shouldn`t have gone in. It had absolutely no relevance to the case. There was no foundation laid for it. If the witness is going to talk about what he observed, fine. But to bring that whole Vaseline incident in, saying that Michael Jackson had intent and purpose to use this Vaseline for...

GRACE: No, that`s not what he was saying.

Hold on. Jane Velez-Mitchell, what would the testimony have been that the judge threw out?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this Kassim Abdool was going to come in and, according to the prosecution, say that Michael Jackson asked him for some Vaseline and that he and Ralph Chacon went back to the SUV, got it out of the glove compartment console, came back, and that when they came back, Michael Jackson was only wearing pajama bottoms, was sweaty and sexually aroused, and that there was a boy in the room there with him.

GRACE: Good lord. I haven`t had dinner yet. Please.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The problem is...


GRACE: Do you have to tell the whole story every time I ask you? Can`t you just skirt around some of the details?

So to Tony Locascio, I didn`t hear a word, nothing, about this guy testifying to what Michael Jackson was thinking at the time, did you?

LOCASCIO: Well, no. That`s the whole inference. That`s why all of this stuff is going out. You can`t have a jury just thinking, "Oh my gosh, and there`s Vaseline here." It`s completely irrelevant. It`s highly prejudicial. And that`s why it`s taken out under 352 under the California...

GRACE: Well, what if it`s true? What if it`s true?

LOCASCIO: Nancy, you can`t put something in under the "what if this or what that" when it`s all based on prejudicial...

GRACE: You have got an eyewitness.

LOCASCIO: Eyewitness, but he has no foundation for it. And you`re bringing in...

GRACE: When you say foundation, are you trying to say date, time, location, frame of mind? That`s the foundation. She just went to all of that.

LOCASCIO: Well, no, you can`t just bring in...

GRACE: That`s what a foundation is.

LOCASCIO: Nancy, you can`t just bring in something like -- as nasty as like a Vaseline issue and just say...


GRACE: If it`s the truth, you can -- when you say no foundation, what exactly did you mean by that?

LOCASCIO: I mean you have to bring in -- what is Michael Jackson thinking when he wants this Vaseline from you?

GRACE: No, you don`t have to bring in the defendant`s state of mind.


LOCASCIO: Nancy, you have to go in more detail as to just say...

GRACE: Specifically?

LOCASCIO: ... "Ladies and gentlemen, he has Vaseline. And he wanted Vaseline." Come on.

GRACE: No. You`re waffling. What do you mean...

LOCASCIO: I`m not waffling.

GRACE: ... by foundation? You blurted it out. "No foundation." What foundation? That`s what the code section says is foundation.

LOCASCIO: Absolutely. That`s what this case is -- that`s what this issue is doing. You know, oh, here let`s look at some rules and let`s throw them out the window. You have...

GRACE: Tony, what is the foundation?

LOCASCIO: Nancy, the foundation that you to lay in something like that, in a situation like that, you have to go into exactly what was spoken about, is you have to go into, of course, the Vaseline and the situation about it.

Oh, I want him to go to the store and pick up a Coke. So what? If you are going to testify as to observations and whatnot, that`s fine. But you know what the prosecution`s doing. They`re going into a whole other area with this whole Vaseline issue implying crazy -- you know, all these wacky sex issues and whatnot, everything that Jane talked about that I almost lost my dinner about.

GRACE: OK. According to my codebook, to lay a foundation for similar transactions such as this, or for any past event, foundation equals the time, the location, any other witnesses, any other comments that were made, and the witness` state of mind at the time of the incident. That is a legal foundation.

LOCASCIO: Yes. And why do you want to bring this in? Why do you want to bring in this whole Vaseline issue?

GRACE: The reason the prosecution wanted to bring it in is because they claim this witness saw Michael Jackson in nothing but his pajama bottoms, sexually aroused, sweaty, asking for Vaseline with a kid in the bedroom. Now, I will let you take it from there.

But the bottom line, Jane Velez-Mitchell, it`s not coming in. So my argument with Tony Locascio is really moot.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And yes. But I have to say that what the judge said when he decided about these past acts is that he didn`t want the prosecution to hang their hat on the past, that they really have to prove the case in chief.

And so, if the past acts that are brought in so much stronger than the case in chief, he wouldn`t think that would be fair. And he would also think that that would be grounds for an appeal.

GRACE: Yes. What about that, Tony?

LOCASCIO: Well, look. And I think the judge in one thing has been watching himself with the rulings in this case. I mean, while there`s certain things that I`ve, you know, differed with, as most of us have, but I think he is watching himself to make sure that he is not going to be taken up on appeal on any issues and then, boom, then we have to try this whole thing again and in the state of California...

GRACE: Well, he`s going to be taken up on appeal, period, if there`s a conviction. Now, I don`t know if there`d be a reversal, because he is, as you were pointing out, being very careful on his legal rulings.


GRACE: But I guarantee, anything from an attempted shoplifting to a double murder, will be going up on appeal.

Quick break, everybody. To "Trial Tracking": Today, Zacarias Moussaoui pleads guilty to all six counts against him in the September 11 terrorist attacks. Moussaoui could get the federal death penalty, a penalty he says he will fight.

Earlier, the defense attorneys were arguing Moussaoui was mentally incompetent to plead guilty, but the judge disagreed. Three years ago, he was set to plead guilty to the attacks, but changed his mind at the last minute.



JACKSON: I can`t go into a park. I can`t go to Disneyland as myself. I can`t walk out and walk down the street. There`s crowds and bumper-to- bumper cars. So I create my world behind my gates. Everything that I love is behind those gates.


GRACE: That is Jackson from his first public response to the child molestation charges. Welcome back.

I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us on this Friday night.

We are expecting, because of the state`s witness list, that Jackson`s wife before last, Debbie Rowe, is going to take the stand. Jackson has two kids by Debbie Rowe. Those were obviously happier times. Now she has got a custody suit against Jackson in addition to being on the prosecution witness list.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, is it real or is it puffery? Is she really going to testify and about what?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, "People" magazine is reporting that the prosecution has subpoenaed her to testify. And I would think that that would make a lot of sense. What a dramatic way for the prosecution to end its case having the mother of two of Michael Jackson`s children, Prince Michael and Paris, take the stand and talk about her concerns vis-a-vis Michael Jackson.

She could also possibly talk about the conspiracy. Do you remember back when there was a photograph that came out of Debbie Rowe at the Ivy, that famous restaurant in Los Angeles...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... with two of the alleged unindicted co- conspirators, Mark Schaffel and Dieter Weisner? What were they talking about? Did they confide in her? All of that could come up.

And so it`s not over yet. The prosecution has had a very rocky road, but they could end with a real bang in this case.

GRACE: Man, you are not kidding.

Hey Joe Episcopo, I have only got a couple of seconds left. But how much will the husband-wife privilege affect her testimony?

EPISCOPO: Well, I`m sure the defense has interviewed her and they know what she is going to say. I suppose she`s going to waive it. I don`t know. I`m not really sure how it`s going to affect it.

GRACE: He will be the one that would waive it, not her.

EPISCOPO: I know. So I don`t know what they`re going to do. Obviously, the defense hasn`t raised it in a pretrial motion.

GRACE: Joe, no way is Mesereau going to waive anything unless it`s somehow -- I`m thinking that the communication has already been divulged to a third-party -- then there would be no more protection.

Joe, I`ll be right back with you. We have got to go to break.

As we go to break, we at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Yvonne Martinez. She was found mysteriously murdered October 11, 2003. No suspects. If you have any information on Yvonne Martinez, contact the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, 888-813-8389. There may be a reward. Please help us.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carmen Pack and her husband, family and friends spent time reading notes from the public, wept, and even prayed Tuesday morning at the death scene. When they left, they stopped the car and looked back in total disbelief at how quickly their family has been torn apart.


GRACE: Kind of hurts to even look at that video.

A little boy, a little girl, I believe 10 and 7, walking along with their mom to get ice cream. Who could think of anything sweeter or more innocent? What a memory -- when, out of the blue,a car jumps the curb and claims the life of the two children, the dad trying desperately. He comes to the scene, tries to give CPR. Doesn`t work.

It turns out, icing on the cake, the alleged driver is a nanny high on alcohol and painkillers, say police, on her way to take care of another baby.

Tonight, in San Francisco, the attorney for that nanny, Jimena Barreto, her lawyer, Craig Wormley, is with us. Also in San Francisco, Alana and Troy Pack`s mom and dad, Carmen and Bob.

But first to "Contra Costa Times" reporter Bruce Gerstman.

Welcome, Bruce. Bring us up to date, friend.


This week started the trial. And the prosecutor started with his opening statements , and so did the defense attorney. The prosecutor sort of depicted the defendant as a nanny who drank and was intoxicated a lot and was a person who at the scene itself had total disregard for anyone except herself. And then, when...


GRACE: How did they show that? How did they show complete self- absorption, Bruce?

GERSTMAN: Well, the way the prosecutor was describing it, he was saying that the witnesses would show, which they then got up and described how the defendant got out of the car and then was very concerned about her own well being and her own -- and the possibility of prison and such, and did not seem to express concern for the children.

But then the defense attorney also depicted the defendant in a very different light, as, you know, a nanny who really does love children and someone who there is no evidence that she was under any influence of any chemical. But evidence will show, the defense attorney said, that she was in shock. And that`s why she acted the way she did.

GERSTMAN: Let me go to her defense attorney, Craig Wormley.

Craig, after she left the scene of the accident, the crash, she got in the car of not one, but two other drivers, basically jumped in their cars. Why did she leave the scene? And one of those ladies whose car she jumped into said she smelled alcohol, right?


The thing about it was, she was in shock and she got into a couple vehicles. And one of the ladies did say, she smelled a whiff of alcohol on her breath. And that`s all she smelled, was a whiff. This is a person that had admitted on my cross-examination she had a margarita or two that evening as well. And when I asked her if it was possible she was smelling her own breath, she said, no. And, of course, we know everything is possible.

The other people -- there`s been 25 witnesses who have been called. And not one of them, other than this lady that says whiff, no one`s presented any evidence whatsoever that...


WORMLEY: ... alcohol.

GRACE: Well, how do you explain her car jumping up over the curb, crashing into these two kids and then her taking off from the scene, car- jumping not one, but two ladies?


Well, the car, in mitigation, had some problems in the past. She went to a mechanic. She had some problems with the...

GRACE: Hey. It must be like, you know, that Christine car that was possessed and would just drive around. I mean, why would the car jump up over the curb?

WORMLEY: Well, it wasn`t that it jumped up over the curb. When it became on the curb, it acted as like a train did, or would on a, curb and it just fell and ran the course of the curb and she couldn`t stop it. She lost control of her vehicle. And she didn`t immediately flee the scene, Nancy. She stayed there for several minutes, 15, 20 minutes.

She approached the children, seeing if they were OK. Of course, they weren`t OK. She cried for a while and then she became in a state of shock.


WORMLEY: And she hyperventilated. And that`s...


GRACE: I am going to the children`s mom, Carmen Pack.

Is that the way you recall it, ma`am?


First of all, Jimena Barreto didn`t escape the scene of the accident immediately, of the crash immediately, because she knew that I was watching her. I told her, you stay right here and don`t move. And not until she knew that I was distracted, she left the scene of the accident.

And, also, Nancy, she`s a nanny who knows CPR. She never offered to attend my children when I was screaming for help. That`s not a nanny that cares for children, in my opinion.

GRACE: Mrs. Pack, question. Why is it she didn`t get in her own car and take off?

C. PACK: She wasn`t able to do that because I went into her car and took the keys out of the ignition. I had the keys with me.

So, I really figured that she wasn`t going to be able to go anywhere without her keys. But I was wrong. She escaped on foot.

GRACE: Let me go to Bob Pack.

Bob, what were your recollections of that day?

BOB PACK, SON AND DAUGHTER KILLED IN CAR ACCIDENT: Well, I came to the scene shortly after within about three minutes after the children had been hit.

And, I, you know, first attended my wife, Carmen. She told me she was OK, even though she had been hit in the legs and she was injured. And I rushed to Troy and two women were giving him CPR and mouth to mouth. And I rushed over -- I crawled over to Alana. I tried giving CPR to Alana. She was unattended at the time. But Alana was -- I didn`t want to admit it, but was clearly gone at the time, blood coming from her nose and mouth.

And she was gone. And I crawled back to Troy because the woman giving Troy mouth to mouth began to vomit because of all the blood. And I began to give him mouth to mouth. But both -- both my kids died.

GRACE: I want to go back to Bruce Gerstman. Bruce is an AP writer who has been covering the trial.

Bruce, I learned today that the jury, everybody in the courtroom, was just crying during the testimony today. Is that true?

GERSTMAN: Yes. They were over the past few days.

And real quick, I`m a reporter with the "Contra Costa Times," the local paper out here.

But, yes, especially when Carmen Pack got on the stand, as well as a couple other witnesses describing what they saw happen. You know, Carmen described seeing a car come toward her and take out -- just take out everything in front of her. There were scooters flying. You know, her -- one of her children went far from the scene as well.

And I`d say more than half, maybe three-quarters of the courtroom, were crying listening to that, yes.

To Joe Episcopo.

There`s no toxicology report because, according to what I`ve learned, the nanny took off and they couldn`t find her for about two days. So, by the time they finally got her, what`s the point of taking a toxicology? In any event, can you get a second-degree murder, as opposed to a manslaughter? Normally, this is a manslaughter charge. But the grand jury came back with a murder two charge.

EPISCOPO: You know, I think that it depends on who the victim is. These are young children.

Now, if Tony Locascio and I are walking down the street, two criminal defense attorneys, and we get plowed into, it is going to be a manslaughter charge. It just depends on the victim. But you know what else?

GRACE: Hey, hey. You know what, though, Joe? I`ll work the jury. I`ll try to engender a little sympathy for you and Tony Locascio. But...



GRACE: I think you are right, though. I think you are dead on.

EPISCOPO: Let me point something else out. If she gets convicted of the two manslaughter counts, she can get 30 years in prison. Now, they say, if she gets convicted of the murder count, she can get 30 years in prison. So, it is really a sentencing issue. And there`s enough sentence behind the manslaughter charge to satisfy people who want to see that happen.

GRACE: I can tell you one thing.

Back to Mr. Pack.

This is one of the first times in history that there has been a murder two charge with a toxicology report. So, this story greatly affected a grand jury.

Sir, what are the alleged pain pills she was on?

B. PACK: Well, our case is predicated on both alcohol and prescription drugs.


B. PACK: She has a history, an extensive history, of abusing Vicodin, which is a powerful pain medication, and Flexeril, which is a muscle relaxant.

GRACE: Right. Right.

B. PACK: And she took hundreds of these pills. We have that evidence. In addition, we have very compelling evidence to strong abuse of alcohol. This is clearly a second-degree murder case, nothing else.

GRACE: Well, isn`t it true -- isn`t it true that, when her family and friends began looking for her, her employer, they called her home.

Where else did they call, Ellie (ph)? Cell phone and the bar.

B. PACK: Yes.

GRACE: It`s a restaurant bar But they call the bar looking for her.

B. PACK: Yes. Yes.

Ding, ding.

B. PACK: Yes, ding, ding. She was there. I mean, the bartender at the bar -- I mean, she frequented that bar regularly. That family knew, knew that fact. And that`s where they went looking for her.

GRACE: And, of course, Craig Wormley, though, you are the defense attorney. Your argument would obviously be, sure, she has gone and had a drink at this bar, but that doesn`t mean she was drunk that night.

WORMLEY: Well, not only that. I mean, there`s no dispute that Jimena Barreto likes alcohol. She was on painkillers. They`re prescribed by doctors. They weren`t being abused. And we are going to have testimony next week that shows that. She was taking Vicodin and she was taking them as they were prescribed. And...

GRACE: OK. I got to go to break very quickly.

But what effect would Vicodin, Flexeril and alcohol have on someone, Doctor?

NUCCITELLI: Well, it`s a deadly mixture. That`s why on the side of any type of opiate class, such as Vicodin, specifically says, does not use alcohol.

And what Mr. Wormley is saying about her about not abusing them and taking them as prescribed, if she is drinking alcohol the same day she`s talking Vicodin, that is misusage of an opiate-class medication.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jimena Barreto depended on references to get work. She came highly recommended in 1997, when KRON-4 anchor Emerald Yeh hired her to help with Yeh`s newborn twins.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a mother, it is really distressing for me because, first and foremost, you know, I can`t even imagine what it`s like for the parents who lost their two children. And, on another level, life is over as she knows it for a woman who thrived on and was devoted to taking care of children.


GRACE: The California grand jury reacting strongly to the facts in this case, handing down a murder two indictment. And nowhere in California history have we found with no toxicology report such an indictment.

Very quickly to Tony Locascio.

The actions of a defendant before, during and after a crime can be taken into account by the jury. How do you explain her leaving the scene and car-jumping two women?

LOCASCIO: Well, I think the defense attorney, Craig, out in California kind of has it right on. None of us, Nancy, knows how we would react in this type of situation. Is it possible?

I mean, you have a doctor sitting right next to you, Nancy. I think he would agree -- I would be surprised if he didn`t -- that someone could snap and go in a state of shock when they see, oh, my God, what did I just do? And then leave.

GRACE: OK. Very quickly, before we go to our next story, I want to go back to Carmen Pack for your final thoughts, ma`am.

C. PACK: Well, I would like to say that there`s one truth. I was there the night of the accident. Mr. Wormley wasn`t there. I was. I interacted with Jimena Barreto. I talked to her. I saw her. She was disheveled. She was staggering. She looked completely under the influence. And I know that for a fact.

GRACE: As much as I have sympathy going out to you two, I`m also happy for you. I know you`re expecting twins. And God bless you.

B. PACK: Thank you very much.

C. PACK: Thank you.

GRACE: We are switching gears.

Tonight, in State College, Pennsylvania, Ray Gricar`s friend and colleague is joining us. Remember, the prosecutor who vanished into thin air? Tony DeBoef.

But, first, to WTHA reporter Chris Cekot.

Chris, this guy has now been missing for, what, seven days. It`s a veteran felony prosecutor. What`s the latest?

CHRIS CEKOT, WTHA REPORTER: Well, right now, Nancy, the latest development is that divers are now looking in a stretch of the Susquehanna River. We understand that they`ve been searching today, didn`t turn up any new leads or any new clues. It has been one week now since district attorney Ray Gricar has been heard from.

Tony DeBoef is a friend and colleague of the missing prosecutor.

Tony, what can you tell us tonight? What do you think happened?

TONY DEBOEF, FRIEND OF RAY GRICAR: Well, as you well know, being a prosecutor yourself at one time, oftentimes, people do interesting things. You can`t really ask yourself why, but look at the facts of what we know.

GRACE: Well, what do you think happened? Of course people do interesting things. That`s why they land behind bars. But your friend was a felony prosecutor. What do you think happened to him? Foul play? Has he just gone on a walkabout? What?

DEBOEF: He`s definitely been missing for seven days. He would have definitely told his family, particularly his daughter if he was just going for a trip or vacation. He missed hearings this week. He is a thinking man`s DA. He tried all the serious cases in this county. He was very methodical. He was very good at what he does.


GRACE: What kind of cases did he handle?

DEBOEF: He handled and still on the docket handles several cases involving, you know, death in the community. He always handles...

GRACE: That would be murder?

DEBOEF: Yes, murders.

GRACE: He handles murder cases?

DEBOEF: Murders, you know, shaken baby syndromes. We have one of those right now. But, particularly, he did all the domestic violence cases.

GRACE: Let me go to Chris Cekot, WTHA reporter.

Did police get a search warrant for what and why?

CEKOT: If I heard you correctly, yes, police did get a search warrant. They`re looking into Mr. Gricar`s medical history. Apparently, Mr. Gricar`s girlfriend told police that he was experiencing a lot of fatigue. He had been taking naps in the afternoon, sometimes after work.

So, police at this point looking into medical history, seeing if there might be any kind of connection between his medical and his disappearance.

GRACE: Because he took a nap?

CEKOT: I`m sorry?

GRACE: Because he took a nap?

CEKOT: Well, there -- we`re not sure exactly why police are looking. They just -- I think they`re just covering all their bases right now and just wanting to see if there might be any sort of connection between fatigue or if there`s any sort of history of mental illness, anything along those lines.

GRACE: Would lots of sleeping indicate depression, quickly?

NUCCITELLI: Depression, yes. Hypersomnia. Sure, definitely could be depression.

GRACE: We are taking a quick break.

Elizabeth (ph), could you show another shot of the missing prosecutor? Take a look, everybody. This prosecutor has been missing now for seven long days.

We are going to break. But, as we go to break, I want to talk you to the all-points bulletin for tonight. U.S. Marshals looking for Phillip Williams. He`s wanted for murder. His criminal history dates back to 1979. Take a look. Williams wanted for the August 2003 stabbing death of his ex-girlfriend in the parking lot of a casino in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Williams considered extremely dangerous. He`s 46 years of age, 5`10``, 210 pounds, brown eyes. Williams bald with a scar on his head. He has a gap between the front teeth.

If you have any information on this guy, Phillip Williams, take a look, please. Contact the U.S. Marshals Service, phone number, toll-free, 1-800-336-0102.

Local news is coming up next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back.

And, remember, we bring you the latest 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "closing Arguments" on the Michael Jackson trial.

Please stay with us.


GRACE: Man, what a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important the people who touched all of our lives.


GRACE: Day 37 of the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Prosecutors dropped a bombshell.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Absolutely wild day in court. The defense attorneys, the prosecuting attorneys in a ferocious battle.

GRACE: He was a multimillionaire, the top of the Atlanta social ladder. But when his wife was gunned down at the front door of an Atlanta mansion, the suspicion turned toward him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They do not believe that there is any one else on the face of the planet that is responsible for this terrible crime.

GRACE: Imagine waking up in the middle of the night, hearing something and then finding an intruder hiding in your closet. Then, as it turns out, he`s been living there for a solid month and he`s your spouse`s lover. Well, obviously, there`s no good ending to this story, but think murder one?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You called the police.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, ma`am. I didn`t.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was absolutely terrified of what was going on. If he could have done this to my husband, I`m not sure what he was going to do to me.

GRACE: A mom walking her children to a local ice cream store, when, out of nowhere, comes the car up over the curb, slamming into the family, killing the two children, almost instantly.

C. PACK: I feel like I owe this to them and I feel like I`m their voice and I`m speaking for them today. I want justice for my children.

GRACE: A heart breaking ending to the search for Sarah Michelle Lunde. The 13-year-old girl`s body was found submerged in a fish pond.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was great, great in coming to church and supporting everybody and loving everybody.

GRACE: Convicted sex offender David Onstott, who dated Sarah`s mother, tonight stands charged with murder one.


GRACE: Man, what a week.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from around the world.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight.

But I want to introduce a special guest. Our show has a billboard in Time Square this week. And somebody came up all the way from Macon, Georgia, just to look at it.


I`m signing off. I`ll see you Monday night.

Of course, you remember my mom from the last time she made a cameo appearance.

I`ll see you Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.


On CNN TV E-mail Services CNN Mobile CNN AvantGo CNNtext Ad info Preferences
   The Web     
Powered by
© 2005 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us.
external link
All external sites will open in a new browser. does not endorse external sites.
 Premium content icon Denotes premium content.