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DOLANS UNSCRIPTED

Hidden Treasures: Antique Appraisals; Up to 40 Million Credit Card Numbers Stolen; Dennis Kozlowski Convicted for Fraud, Conspiracy, Grand Larceny; Rising Property Taxes: Are they Necessary?; Opinions Deeply Divided on President's Drug Plan for Seniors.

Aired June 18, 2005 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. I'm Betty Nguyen. DOLANS UNSCRIPTED is straight ahead, but first these stories right "Now in the News."
Two U.S. military operations are under way in western Iraq this morning as U.S. and Iraqi troops try to take out insurgents. You're looking at exclusive pictures. The military says they've killed about 50 insurgents so far. And CNN's Jane Arraf is embedded with U.S. Marines. She reports they discovered and freed four Iraqis apparently held hostage in the city of Karabila.

Your credit card number may be in the hands of the wrong people. Mastercard says there has been a security breach at a company that handles credit card transactions. The breach affects up to 40 million Mastercard-branded cards and Visa accounts.

The White House hopes to block the G8 summit from designating global warming as an urgent problem. Drafts of a G8 statement on climate and energy shows the competing views of the U.S. and those shared by the other seven countries.

And the so-called Downing Street Memo is raising new questions about the run-up to the Iraq war. The prewar memo suggests British leader Tony Blair and President Bush were rushing to war and exaggerated the intelligence on weapons of mass destruction. Both leaders deny those claims.

Testimony resumes this morning in the Mississippi murder trial of former Klansman Edgar Ray Killen. He's accused of killing three civil rights workers more than 40 years ago. Yesterday, a retired police officer testified the day after the slayings Killen bragged about getting rid of three civil rights workers.

I'm Betty Nguyen. DOLANS UNSCRIPTED beings right now.

KEN DOLAN, CO-HOST: Fancy dinner for two in New York City, $200. A new high-fashion outfit, $2,000.

DARIA DOLAN, CO-HOST: My Mastercard information, priceless.

ANNOUNCER: Live from the Time Warner Center in New York Center with their take on the news, Ken and Daria Dolan.

K. DOLAN: It is much too long from Saturday to Saturday, because we miss you. Welcome to DOLANS UNSCRIPTED, everybody. Lots going on: Tyco, Mastercard, property tax, AMT. What else?

D. DOLAN: I thought I was the only other person that you said you missed. I don't get this.

K. DOLAN: I'm going to tell everyone -- give me your Mastercard. I've got to show everybody.

D. DOLAN: Why?

K. DOLAN: Let me see it for a second.

D. DOLAN: I hit it already.

K. DOLAN: No, but I want people to see how paranoid you are and as how paranoid a lot of us are.

D. DOLAN: Well...

K. DOLAN: You showed it up in the open. She's got the tape over her number. Like who's going to blow up the picture to...

D. DOLAN: I also have the logo of the issuer taped up, because I wasn't giving them a free ad.

K. DOLAN: Oh. Before we get started, Daria, they need you down at Pinehurst, by the way. They've got trouble. We are going to Pinehurst at the end of July. And...

D. DOLAN: Yes, I'm walking the course just to take a look at it after seeing those scores. Holy mackerel.

K. DOLAN: Vijay Singh says that the course you are playing, Pinehurst 2, is the toughest course in America. So good luck. That will be 100 strokes per side.

D. DOLAN: If I ever find a golf game, I'll even bring it there.

K. DOLAN: Hey, some stuff happened last night, Daria. Let's talk about it. OK?

Another week, another huge breach of security in a big financial firm. This time, more than 40 million credit and debit card accounts have been stolen from a payment processor called CardSystems.

About 20 million Visa and 14 million Mastercard accounts, along with some American Express and Discover cards. All the card issuers say consumers won't be liable for unauthorized charges. That, of course, is only part of it.

What I'd like to know is, what took you so long to tell us?

D. DOLAN: Well, again, you know -- and it's all thanks to California. I think they all worry a lot about whether, in fact, you know, they're going to get in real trouble if they don't notify people. They keep using the old, well, we have to let the FBI know and let them try to do some work before we tell the rest of the world. What seriously concerns me about this, though, is two things.

K. DOLAN: What's that?

D. DOLAN: Number one, debit cards. Because even though there have been laws that have been enacted to give you some sort of protection, by the time they get your debit card account absolutely drained out, and you fight it back, it could be a long while that you go without some money, that you have to not worry about unauthorized charges. Well, you do have to worry, because if you don't check your bill every month, you could end up paying for something you have no -- no connection to.

K. DOLAN: That's exactly right. So check your statements every month for sure.

The good news is, I suppose -- although it's not great news this theft. The other piece of news is, what took you so long to tell us? No Social Security numbers were stolen.

D. DOLAN: If you don't carry a balance, I seriously would call the issuer, cancel the account and start over.

K. DOLAN: Oh boy.

D. DOLAN: Well, there are no golden shower curtains where Dennis Kozlowski is headed. The former Tyco CEO was convicted yesterday for fraud, conspiracy and grand larceny. And former Tyco CFO Mark Swartz was also convicted.

K. DOLAN: I'm going to tell you, they both face up to 25 years in a New York state prison. It looks like it's going to be Attica. This ain't Club Cupcake, folks.

D. DOLAN: (INAUDIBLE)

K. DOLAN: Whatever. Kozlowski has become the poster child for corporate greed, with excessive bonuses, multiple apartments and stuff like that. And, of course, that infamous...

D. DOLAN: Two million dollar party in Sardinia.

K. DOLAN: Yes. Quite amazing.

D. DOLAN: The only charges that they were found not guilty on each was one count of falsifying business records.

K. DOLAN: Was it 21 out of 22 charges.

D. DOLAN: Twenty-two out of 23 charges.

K. DOLAN: Out of 23, yes.

D. DOLAN: And interestingly enough, this was a retrial. If you'll recall, in April of last year there was trial in which the 12th juror... K. DOLAN: Got threatening phone calls.

D. DOLAN: ... a Mrs. Jordan, or Ms. Jordan, claimed she was getting threatening phone calls, was spotted giving a, you know, three ring sign to the defense and Mr. Kozlowski on the way into the courthouse one day. They probably would have nailed them then, because 11, except that 12th juror, Jordan, were voting to convict.

K. DOLAN: Look at the screen. Probably cause. Who has been at it? Stephan Atkinson (ph), I guarantee you, one of our people. Probable...

Was it, Stephan (ph)?

D. DOLAN: No, who is he? You have to tell the audience who he is.

K. DOLAN: Stephan Atkinson (ph), one of our producers, yes.

D. DOLAN: Yes.

K. DOLAN: He's always got those funny little things.

Hey, by the way, we'll have more on the Kozlowski -- how Kozlowski spent Tyco's money a little bit later in the show and how it might affect us as investors. We'll talk about it.

D. DOLAN: Well, you know, I don't know about you, but when I retire I am going to work on that golf game we were talking about.

K. DOLAN: Speaking of Pinehurst -- all right.

D. DOLAN: But here's the story of a man who at 68 has taken a different -- taken on a different goal, overhauling the tax code. All he wants is to tax property properly.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

D. DOLAN (voice-over): After 38 years as a dentist, Harvey Waxman was ready to retire with his wife Judy in their two-bedroom Rhode Island home. That is until the mail arrived.

DR. HARVEY WAXMAN, PROPERTY TAX ADVOCATE: The property tax at that time, I believe it was about $7,000 a year. Well, after the revaluation in 2000, our 2001 tax bill came to over $14,000 in one year.

D. DOLAN: Five years later, his retirement looks like more of a career change. He started RIGHT, Rhode Island Gets Honorable Taxation, to fight a property tax system that baffled him.

WAXMAN: The property tax is the only tax we pay according to what someone else can afford. It just doesn't make sense to me.

D. DOLAN: Rather than basing property taxes on the market value of a property, Harvey says they should be based on what you paid for your home. Due to the nature of the current system, the recent housing boom has driven national property taxes higher by 36 percent in just five years. And homeowners whose home prices have risen don't have more cash on hand but have to come up with more money to pay the taxes.

WAXMAN: I can't tear off a few shingles and send it in with my tax bill. Unless everyone is sharing in the burden of their communities, it can never be considered fair.

D. DOLAN: Americans seem to agree. According to an April Gallup poll, 42 percent of respondents said that property tax was the least fair tax, while only 20 percent picked the federal income tax and 17 percent named their state sales tax.

But city advocates say rising property taxes are essential for local government.

DON BORUT, NATIONAL LEAGUE OF CITIES: They're stable, they're dependable, and in this last period when things were going south in every other way, the property tax really was fundamental to make sure cities could pay for fundamental services.

WAXMAN: I am not suggesting we do away with the property tax. I am only suggesting we change the way we distribute the tax among citizens.

D. DOLAN: And Harvey insists his plan is revenue neutral. That is, it won't lower the amount available to local governments.

WAXMAN: We have to raise $50 million. We're going to do it one way or the other. We're still going to raise $50 million.

I'll either take $25 million from you and $25 million from you, or I'm going to take $50 million from you and nothing from you. Which way is fair and which way isn't? It's the same $50 million. I don't know how to make it any more plain.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

D. DOLAN: Well, joining us to show what you can do to fight your property tax bill is John Berthoud. He's president of the National Taxpayers Union. He joins us from Washington, D.C.

How are you, John?

K. DOLAN: Hey. Good morning, John.

JOHN BERTHOUD, NATIONAL TAXPAYERS UNION: Very good. Great to be with you guys.

K. DOLAN: John, I hear you are somewhat of an expert on property tax increases having had yours increase 28 percent this year.

BERTHOUD: Well, yes. Yes. A lot of pain and suffering in Arlington, Virginia.

D. DOLAN: And you made a perfect case for the inequity of this. The fact is, your salary didn't go up 28 percent, I'm going to guess.

BERTHOUD: No, that's absolutely right. And, you know, this is happening in a lot of communities around the nation.

In Fairfax County, near Washington, D.C., property values went up on average 23 percent. They lowered the rate a tiny bit, but most people in Fairfax probably didn't get a 20 or 23 percent raise, and that's a big problem.

K. DOLAN: For sure.

D. DOLAN: Well, it is. And sort of -- property taxes are a captive audience, aren't they? Income taxes you can opt if your tax rate goes up to just make less income.

BERTHOUD: That's right. And, you know, the property taxes, if you are a senior on a fixed income, that -- you know, those are audiences that are particularly hard hit by these big increases.

K. DOLAN: Hey, John Berthoud, is it not in fact a vicious circle? We understand why communities need property tax. Eighty percent of it goes to schools and roads and jungle gyms and stuff like that.

BERTHOUD: Yes.

K. DOLAN: We understand that. But maybe is not the problem the way we spend our money at the municipal level, that continue -- that means we continue, have to continue adding and increasing the property tax? I don't think anybody said property tax is bad, but how to we control it? At the source?

BERTHOUD: Well, you control it in a number of ways. First, you start faring the politicians who aren't giving more property tax relief. And look, you know, a lot of municipalities have been overspending.

We want education, but the question is, do we -- can we do it in fiscally sensible way? So start faring off the politicians who aren't restraining spending, and individuals can fight their property taxes.

Estimates say that 60 percent of property is over-assessed. But less than one in 50 people goes in and fights it. And there's a way to do it.

We have a booklet. You can get on our Web site, NT.org (ph), on how to fight property taxes. And a lot of folks can succeed in bringing those property taxes down.

K. DOLAN: Just do it the right way.

D. DOLAN: You what the problem I find, though, John, is that whenever there is a discussion of cutting the property taxes, or even the local sales taxes, immediately from the leaders of the community the cry goes up, well then we're going to have to cut police, we're going to have to cut fire... BERTHOUD: Of course.

D. DOLAN: ... garbage pickup, education. Is there any truth to that argument?

BERTHOUD: No. And look, these guys, the tax eaters, always will have these siren songs about, if we don't increase property -- if property taxes aren't rising by 10 percent or 12 percent, they are going to pick the most politically sexy targets. And, you know, if you or I had to restrain spending, we would cut the lowest priority.

D. DOLAN: Sure.

BERTHOUD: The politicians always will try and claim that the very first dollar they have to cut is the most politically sensitive. So it's a game the politicians play. And we just have to, you know, call them -- call them on this nonsense.

D. DOLAN: Yes.

K. DOLAN: Yes, I agree.

D. DOLAN: Hey, John, don't go too far, because we're going to be speaking with you again a little later in the show about the possibility of some tax reform.

BERTHOUD: Terrific.

D. DOLAN: So don't go anywhere.

BERTHOUD: We need it.

K. DOLAN: Yes, we do. John, thanks very much.

Also coming up later this hour, bitter pill or the right medicine? Opinions divided on the president's plan to lower drug prices for seniors.

D. DOLAN: Also, summer antiquing. Our Dolans' do's and don'ts on how to get started.

K. DOLAN: It's going to be fun.

And with Father's Day tomorrow, here is our question to you for email. What is the best advice your father ever gave you? The number to call is 800-304-3638.

Happy Father's Day. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

K. DOLAN: Welcome back, everybody.

There's some major news out of Washington this week when it comes to healthcare. In 2006, many seniors will have the option to get some much-needed help at the drugstore, but as usual, it won't come without a price.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a good deal. This isn't political talk. This is true.

K. DOLAN (voice-over): President Bush is once again on the campaign trail. Not running for office, but hoping to get a public vote of confidence for his Medicare prescription drug plan.

BUSH: This great and trusted program is about to become even better. Starting this November, every American on Medicare can sign up to help -- to get help paying for their prescription drugs.

K. DOLAN: This marks the first time in Medicare's 40-year history that the program will offer prescription drug benefits. It's part of a bill signed into law in late 2003. Over 40 million Americans are on Medicare, and between 28 and 30 million of them are expected to sign up for the plan.

MIKE LEAVITT, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: There are three important time periods. The first one right now just learning about the plan. Then November the 15th enrollment will begin, and then on January 1 the plan will become effective.

K. DOLAN: No doubt beneficiaries welcome the relief, but with an estimated price tag of more than $700 billion over 10 years, it begs the question, who is going to cover the bill?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

K. DOLAN: Yes. Thank you, Ken. Very good point.

And here's my point about this drug prescription plan. Part of it is, if you have a house and you can't make your mortgage payments, Medicare, Medicaid, then let's add a swimming pool to the house. It is a bad move. We've got $13 trillion of unfunded obligations in the future. I don't think the drug prescription plan makes sense.

D. DOLAN: Well, the explanation for it won't even be available for it for your parents or yourself until the first of October. So for the president to spend at least -- Congress has allocated a billion dollars to educate people. And to go out on the road now to get people to sign up when they don't even know what the deal is I think is just a waste of everybody's time.

Now, on top of that, more than 70 percent of seniors currently spend no more than $500 a year on medicines anyway...

K. DOLAN: On average, yes.

D. DOLAN: ...because many of them through their Medigap policies or their company retirement plans have some sort of drug benefits. So take a look at what it's going to cost the average American.

First off, the yearly deductible of $250. And then an average monthly payment out of your pocket to belong to this of $37. And then additional co-payments over a $2,200 amount, which means that if you're spending less than $500 a year now...

K. DOLAN: It may not make sense.

D. DOLAN: ... it's a bad deal for you.

K. DOLAN: Well, I think it is hard to generalize, Daria. But I think we should take a sharp pencil to paper and take a peek at it.

I'm not sure that these numbers -- I'm not so sure that this -- the cost of the card, of which there are dozens and dozens, makes sense. If you are a caregiver or, in fact, a senior citizen who qualifies for this drug prescription card, do your homework. As I said, take sharp pencil to pencil to paper and see if it makes sense for you. For many it simply will not.

D. DOLAN: And don't sign up until October 1, when -- November -- actually, November.

K. DOLAN: Yes.

D. DOLAN: Don't sign up early. Get the information. Go through it. They've had to rewrite it now a second time, according to "The New York Times," back in May, because even the people working in the whole process couldn't understand how it works.

K. DOLAN: Can you believe a billion dollars for education? Unbelievable.

Well, what do you think about drug prices? Earlier in the show we talked about property taxes. So what's your opinion?

Let's go. Come on. This is your program. 800-304-3638.

But first, a quick Dolans credit check.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

D. DOLAN (voice-over): Diplomas have been framed, caps and gowns have been put away, and you are ready to build your career. But building good credit is also important. Qualifying for mortgages, auto loans, apartments, and even first jobs can depend to some degree on your credit history.

Aim to stay within your credit limit to establish yourself as a good risk. Always try to pay $25 to $30 more than the minimum payment to stay ahead of your credit card bills.

And finally, be realistic about how much credit you can afford. A good measure is no more than 20 percent of your net income.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

K. DOLAN: Wow. What a beautiful shot up the Hudson. A beautiful day in New York City. We're jamming on DOLANS UNSCRIPTED.

D. DOLAN: You know why we're showing you that?

K. DOLAN: No, why?

D. DOLAN: That's the route that Dennis Kozlowski will be taking to Attica.

K. DOLAN: Never mind -- up the river.

Hey, this Attica situation with -- is pretty serious.

D. DOLAN: It's serious stuff. Serious stuff.

K. DOLAN: All right. Where we going?

D. DOLAN: But it is time for our first "Dolans on Demand."

K. DOLAN: "Dolans on Demand."

D. DOLAN: And so let's go to Indiana for our first call.

Hey, Lou, how are you?

K. DOLAN: Hey, Lou.

CALLER: I'm doing good, guys. How about you?

D. DOLAN: Good.

K. DOLAN: Fine, Lou. Thanks.

CALLER: I love your show.

K. DOLAN: Thank you, Lou.

D. DOLAN: Thanks, Lou.

CALLER: The question is regarding property taxes.

K. DOLAN: Yes.

CALLER: My property taxes here in Indianapolis went up 25 percent last year.

K. DOLAN: In one year?

CALLER: In one year.

D. DOLAN: Your salary did, too, right, Lou?

CALLER: Oh, yes. And I was unemployed.

D. DOLAN: Oh, perfect.

CALLER: And my question is this: why should I have to pay to support schools out of my property taxes if I'm single?

K. DOLAN: Old question, Lou. An awful lot of senior citizens in California, and the retirement areas like New Mexico and Florida have the same question.

D. DOLAN: Arizona.

K. DOLAN: Arizona, yes.

D. DOLAN: And a big argument over that.

K. DOLAN: Yes. As we said before, Lou, on average, generally speaking across America, 80 percent of what you pay goes to schools. And Lou says, "I'm single." And that's a good point, but there's no way around it.

D. DOLAN: Lou, you have to look at it in the investment of the future for all of us. Because if we don't educate our youth properly, then we're not going to have a very good country to live in going forward.

K. DOLAN: No.

D. DOLAN: So I -- I think there is a way to do it so that it is more equitable, and I think just, number one, throw the polls out that are overspending the money and then threatening to cut back on education and all the most necessary services.

K. DOLAN: Can I say something here?

D. DOLAN: Yes.

K. DOLAN: May I please just get a word in here? Thank you. Uh- oh. I'm in trouble now, Jay.

You made a good point which made me think to tell Lou is, by having good schools, we hope, with our money, helps protect my property value, too, in my area.

D. DOLAN: Yes.

K. DOLAN: All right.

D. DOLAN: Cynthia.

K. DOLAN: In Texas.

D. DOLAN: Cynthia's next.

K. DOLAN: Cynthia in Texas.

Hi, Cynthia.

CALLER: Hi.

K. DOLAN: How are you? CALLER: I'm good.

K. DOLAN: Good. What's up?

CALLER: I just want to tell you the best advice my father ever gave.

K. DOLAN: Yes?

D. DOLAN: Oh, wonderful.

CALLER: He said -- I know, it's wonderful. He's no longer living, but he's still in my heart every single day.

He said, if money can solve it, it's not a problem. The true problems of this world are those that a checkbook cannot take care of.

K. DOLAN: Thanks, Cynthia.

D. DOLAN: Thanks, Cynthia.

K. DOLAN: You had a wise dad.

D. DOLAN: Good guy.

K. DOLAN: Bernard in Ontario, Canada.

Hi, Bernard. How are you?

CALLER: Fine, thank you.

K. DOLAN: Good.

CALLER: The best advice from my dad, I worked in early, early morning radio. And he would get up and sit with me at the breakfast table just before I went to work, and he would say, "Always remember how bright you are. You can strive to do whatever you want. And remember, whatever you decide, I'll always be behind you."

K. DOLAN: Boy, I tell you, what a nice way to start the day.

D. DOLAN: Isn't that great? Talk about building up your self- esteem. Fabulous. Thanks so much for sharing that.

K. DOLAN: Tremendous.

All right. Coming up next, we're going to go talk to the good people at PBS "Antiques Road Show" to find out how you can uncover that like little diamond in the rough this summer. Crank up the old vehicle and stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

K. DOLAN: We're going to talk about antiquing in a moment. But first, let's send it back to our own cowgirl, the pride of Dallas, Texas, Betty Nguyen in Atlanta for the top news headlines. Hi Betty.

NGUYEN: Hee haw, All right. I'm Betty Nguyen. As mentioned, yes, did come from Dallas. DOLANS UNSCRIPTED will continue in just a moment. First these stories right now in the news.

U.S. troops along with Iraqi forces are engaged in two intense battles with insurgents at the Syrian border. These exclusive pictures from CNN's Jane Arraf, the only reported embedded with U.S. Marines in operation spear. They're trying to stop foreign fighters from coming into Iraq. Meanwhile, troops in operation dagger are trying to find hidden weapons and insurgent hideouts.

For the first time in the nation's history, voters in Iran are facing a runoff election for a new president. With about three quarters of the ballots counted, no candidate will get the necessary 50 percent of the vote. Former president Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani will face another candidate next week.

Another cyber break in that might reach into your wallet. A hacker got account information on 40 million Visa, Mastercard and American Express credit card accounts. The FBI is investigating the security breech at Card Systems Solutions. I'm Betty Nguyen. Now back to DOLANS UNSCRIPTED and Daria. Hi there.

D. DOLAN: Hi, how you doing Betty? Thanks so much for the latest. Betty Oakley, no just kidding, Nguyen. Dennis Kozlowski may be headed to prison, but his antiques won't be going with him. While Kozlowski was taking advantage of Tyco shareholders, antiques dealers were taking Koz to the cleaners.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

D. DOLAN (voice-over): Former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski was living large when he got Tyco to buy him a posh New York apartment for some $17 million. Kozlowski then spent $11 million filling the apartment with art and antiques. What does $11 million in home furnishings get you? How about the now infamous $6,000 shower curtain and $15,000 dog-shaped umbrella stand? Did Dennis get ripped off buying his antiques? Tyco has enlisted auction house Sotheby's to help sell them off but the "New York Post" says Tyco is getting a lot less than it initially paid for Kozlowski's furniture.

This pair of Italian style chairs was reportedly purchased for $72,000. They sold at auction for just $3,000. This Italian table apparently carried a price tag of $92,000. But at auction, it went for just $29,000. There is still time to bid on Dennis Kozlowski's desk. Tyco paid $142,000, but when it goes under the hammer next week, Sotheby's is expecting a whole lot less, around $5,000.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

D. DOLAN: Top executives might not even realize they are getting ripped off when they have millions of dollars to buy furniture. How do you really know that the antiques you buy are worth what you are paying?

K. DOLAN: Guess what lady? Help is on the way. Karen Keane is an appraiser with PBS' "Antiques Roadshow." And I've seen you on the show and you do a great job Karen.

KAREN KEANE, APPRAISER, "ANTIQUES ROADSHOW": Thank you. Thank you. It is fun to do.

D. DOLAN: Karen, I think a lot of people were shocked when they found out that Dennis Kozlowski was ripped off by a so-called antique dealer and overpaid for many things. How can I as someone who may be interested in adding an old piece to my house not get ripped off? Do I go to an antique store and then hope that they are honest? Can I do it at a flea market? Where do I start?

KEANE: I think that probably most of us are not negotiating on the level that Dennis Kozlowski was negotiating.

D. DOLAN: We hope not.

KEANE: There's lots of venues to buy antiques and what I would encourage people to do is educate themselves. Collectors really talk about the process being most fun. I have been doing this for 25 years and I really learn something new every day. But where I shop, I can shop at public auction, but I want to be at a venue where I know who the people are. They have not set up an auction in a hotel and they are gone the next day and I can't find them. I don't shop there, but I shop in reputable places, antique stores. I know who the proprietor is and can go back. Actually some dealers will really talk about offering to buy pack pieces when they are really special.

K. DOLAN: Let me give you my antiques perspective. You are an expert. I am far from it, but here is my perspective and tell me how whacky I am. If I'm going to get involved in antiques, almost anything, but antiques seems to me in order for me to do my homework and shop around and understand what I'm doing, is to get involved in something I really love collecting rather than whether I'm going to make money at it or not. Am I simplifying it?

KEANE: You know, you really hit the nail on the head. It's the first thing we say to people always. Buy what you love and buy what you like and that can even get you into specific categories. I love antique jewelry. It can be habit forming and so you buy things that you can wear and enjoy but that might not be your thing. You might decide you have a house by the beach. I want to start collecting marine art and so you start buying some ships pictures and then you want to know more about these pictures. What's the name of the ship? Who painted the picture? So it really is a window into lots and lots of information, but buying what you love to begin with is the most important. That's the first step.

K. DOLAN: Good deal.

D. DOLAN: Karen, for a lot of people I think the idea of buying antiques indicates people with a lot of money. How small a grub stake can I start if I really want to begin collecting something antiquey?

KEANE: That's a great question because there is really something for everybody in this business. I first got involved collecting antiques because I was trying to fill my apartment in Boston when I was a college student and had absolutely no money at all. So we used to go to yard sales and buy interesting and unusual things and so you really can start at a very rudimentary level. You can spend tens of dollars on items all of the way up to millions of dollars. But obviously if you are spending on that high end, you really need to know a lot about it. So I always find that when you make a mistake with something, make it at the lower levels and begin to learn about it. The thing about this business is that you really want to sharpen your eye. You want to keep looking at more and more things and then this idea, this process of connoisseurship, you can understand the marketplace the more you see. You can see what then is the mediocre and what's the best.

K. DOLAN: Karen, we wish you the very best of luck on "Antiques Roadshow." As the CEO of Skinner, one of the world's leading appraisal companies in Boston, I'm so glad we're talking now, because so many people are kind of hitting the road on Saturday's and Sundays looking around for deals. So we really enjoyed having you with us today. Thanks again.

KEANE: Tell them to keep their eyes open.

K. DOLAN: Now you're talking. Thank you Karen Keane.

D. DOLAN: Just remember, buying an antique is unlike buying anything else, because the industry is largely unregulated and consumer ratings don't exist. So that means buyer beware and buyer be aware. Here are Dolan's do's and don't's on antique shopping. Do ask questions. How old is this piece? Where was it made? How did the dealer get it? Has the dealer do any repairs or restorations? What refund or return policy is offered?

Do get it in writing. Authentic sellers should provide written documentation stating age, origin, condition and anything else that affects value. Also be sure to get the seller's name, address and phone number. Do attend vetted antique shows. That means every item for sale has been examined and checked for authenticity by a panel of experts. Do pay attention to the condition of wood, wood finishes and shrinkage when buying furniture. All of these can give you clues about authenticity. Do pay attention to water marks when buying china.

K. DOLAN: Here is what you shouldn't do. Don't buy anything the first time you go to an auction. Sit back. Relax. See how it is done. Listen and learn is the motto here. Don't forget about the auctioneer's charge. This is a buyer's premium which typically varies from 10 to 20 percent. Don't buy incomplete sets of dining chairs if you can help it. Try stretching your budget as full sets are more valuable. Don't get caught in a bidding frenzy. Know how much you can afford to spend before attending an auction. As with anything else, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

D. DOLAN: The most important piece of advice is find a reputable dealer. Credible dealers are usually affiliated with one of the two major U.S. antique trade organizations. So check out the national Antique and Art Dealers Association of America at naadaa.org and the Art and Antique Dealers League at artandantiquedealersleague.org.

K. DOLAN: I love when you use the word grub stake. I love that. Coming up, how to fight the tax man. We'll be rejoined by the head of the National Taxpayers Union to discuss changing the tax and spend ways of Washington. You may hear it here first on DOLANS UNSCRIPTED. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

K. DOLAN: Welcome back to DOLANS UNSCRIPTED everybody. Here are our Dolans threebies to help you save money on your taxes. The National Taxpayers Union, www.ntu.org, number two Daria.

D. DOLAN: You can find out where your tax dollars are being spent. You can also compare different states tax rates at the Federation of Tax Administrators and their site is taxadmin.org.

K. DOLAN: And last, but not least with latest news and tax advice check out money.com/taxes. There's our Dolan threebies for today.

D. DOLAN: And while we were on a tax thing here, let's bring back our guest, John Berthoud, National Taxpayer's Union. He's president of the National Taxpayers Union. He's still in Washington, D.C. They haven't thrown him out yet. Welcome back.

K. DOLAN: John, what do you guys expect to do at this week's convention? What's your goal? I hate to use the word taxpayers' revolt, but maybe you can state it better.

JOHN BERTHOUD, NATIONAL TAXPAYERS UNION: Well, no, that's - those are good words. We've got several hundred activists from all over the country everything from Maine to Florida to California. I've even got folks from Alaska. These are leaders of state and local groups and they are angry. They're angry about property taxes. They are angry about Federal tax complexity and we're talking about strategies and tactics, about how to fight more effectively at the state and local level but we're also talking about ideas like fundamental tax reform at the Federal level and how we as taxpayers can fight back against the bad guys.

D. DOLAN: Now, the president has said along with Social Security one of the key stones of this four-year period is tax reform and so that means he's appointed Connie Mack, former Florida senator and John Breaux, former senator from Louisiana to head up a commission to investigate changing the tax code. Where does that stand and will anything come out of it John?

BERTHOUD: I have been hearing very positive things and the release date has been delayed. I think that's mostly political. The Social Security reform which is a big task has been moving a little slower than I think the president had hoped. I'm still cautiously optimistic on Social Security. I know a lot of folks in Washington are not. But I think when it is explained properly, Social Security reform can and will happen and but it has been little slower and so they moved the timeline for that commission back. I have been hearing the Washington scuttlebutt is that they are actually going try and do something pretty bold.

K. DOLAN: John, in a minute, we're not going to be able to cover all the tax reform ideas we're talking about or you're talking about in your organization. But it is true I think that if something isn't done about the AMT, the alternative minimum tax, up to $34 million Americans might ultimately be touched by it. What is the stance of your gang on the AMT? I think it's - that's what I think it is.

BERTHOUD: It is terrible. You are absolutely right. This is tax in 1969, it was created as part of 200 of the wealthiest Americans. Like a lot of taxes, it has sort of bled down to lower levels. By 2010, up to a third of Americans are going to be affected by it. Already if you have three kids or more, you have a 50 percent or greater chance of being affected by the AMT, so, so much for the family friendly tax code.

D. DOLAN: John, I'm personally a big believer in ripping the whole code out by its roots and starting all over again.

BERTHOUD: God bless you.

D. DOLAN: But along with that, I'm also a bit of a cynic and whose ox s going to get gored. The NAR, the National Association of Realtors doesn't want to see us do away with the tax deduction for mortgage interest and who doesn't want something else and everybody has got a dog in this fight, cynically and it gives the politicians some bargaining chips when they want money for re-election.

BERTHOUD: There you go, No, you are right. The lobbying industry in Washington likes the tax code because they can deliver goodies to favored industries. We have an enormous lobbying industry in Washington. It is actually larger than the economies of 57 nations, just the lobbying industry in Washington. And so the way we're going to do this, if we can do this is from the grassroots. It is from our activists, NTU's members, your listeners - they've got to get angry. They got to get involved because if the people don't get involved, the lobbyists are going to win.

D. DOLAN: I'm angry and I want to get involved. Let's talk after the show.

BERTHOUD: Terrific.

K. DOLAN: John, thank you very much, John Berthoud with ntu.org. Fight the good fight John. Thank you very much.

BERTHOD: Thanks.

K. DOLAN: Well done John. Thanks. We're on your side.

D. DOLAN: And "Dolans on Demand," your side is straight ahead. In honor of Father's Day we really want to hear from you, our loyal viewers, about the best advice your dad ever gave you. That's right after this break. So get on the phone now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERIC SCHURENBERG, MANAGING EDITOR, MONEY: It's a common belief that four years of college will set you back at least $100,000. But the true price of a college degree may not be as high as you think. Three out of four undergraduates attend schools where tuition and fees run less than $12,000 a year. Just over half pay less than $6,000.

To make sure that saving for college doesn't disqualify you aid, save wisely. The formulas colleges use assume that 5.6 percent of parental assets should go to college expenses, versus as much as 35 percent of a student's assets. And remember that the typical college graduate earns about 75 percent more than a high school grad does. Over a working lifetime, that adds up to a million dollars, a return well worth the cost.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

K. DOLAN: Only got a second before I got to the phones. The last time we posted, over a million people read this article, so we did it again.

Don't buy a car before you read this. It's on dolans.com. We're not trying to sell you anything. I just want you to read it before you buy a new car, dolans.com. Many people read it last time. Canada, Ontario, Wally, hey, Wally.

CALLER: Hey, how are you doing?

K. DOLAN: How are you?

CALLER: OK. Best advice my dad ever gave me was go talk to your mom.

D. DOLAN: Good for you.

K. DOLAN: Yes, dear. Wally, thank you very much.

D. DOLAN: Thanks Wally. Bernadine in Florida. How are you?

CALLER: Wonderful. Thank you for taking this call. It is very interesting because worry is interest on a dividend you'll never collect and my dad proved it.

K. DOLAN: Worry is -- say that again Bernadine.

CALLER: Worry is interest on a dividend you'll never collect.

K. DOLAN: Bernadine, thank you very much.

D. DOLAN: Thank you for those great words.

K. DOLAN: Lawrence in New York. Hi, Laurent.

CALLER: Yes hello.

K. DOLAN: How are you?

CALLER: How are you guys?

D. DOLAN: Good thanks.

CALLER: The best advice by dad ever gave me. He told me, never steal but if you are going steal just remember that if you steal a loaf of bread you are a thief. However, if you steal a railroad you will be considered a good businessman.

K. DOLAN: Another wise man Laurent. Laurent, thank you very much. That's very good. Thanks for playing, everybody, on Father's Day. When we return, a few thoughts on Father's Day Daria.

D. DOLAN: Including a plea for equal treatment for dads by the courts. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

K. DOLAN: Attention all of you watching who love your dads and your husbands. The greatest gift you can give the dad in your life is to remind him and yourself of the importance of some smart estate planning. Why don't more couples and families properly prepare for such uncertainties as catastrophic illness, nursing home expense and getting your stuff to your loved ones when you are no longer around without the IRS being your estate's primary beneficiary. An appalling number of Americans have not even drawn up a simple will. If you don't mind the state, the Federal government, your family and friends fighting over your assets when you're no longer around to referee, don't do any smart estate planning. Hold that buzzer. But the legacy you leave may not be the one that you'd intended. Peace of mind, a wonderful gift for Father's Day.

D. DOLAN: I knew you couldn't do that for 30 seconds. Over the years, I have met many men who were terrific dads to their children and I've also met women who haven't been the greatest of moms. As we prepare to celebrate another Father's Day, I want to give words of support to all of those great dads who are battling it out with ex- wives for some time with their kids.

Judges, don't leap to the mistaken conclusion that mothers are always the best parents. Moms, don't use the kids as battering rams against your ex. Dads, know there are lots of us who believe you are entitled to time with your children. Happy Father's Day.

K. DOLAN: Great Daria, well, well done. Thank you very much. We have two seconds here. We want to wish you a very good congratulations from the DOLANS UNSCRIPTED gang to Chris, our cameraman, got married last Saturday.

D. DOLAN: And he's honeymooning in Hawaii when his wife gets out of school.

K. DOLAN: When his wife (INAUDIBLE) she's a teacher. She's finishing this year and as soon as the year is over, they are off to Hawaii. We're off now. We'll see you next week. How much time we got left Sean? Are we OK? All right. Up next, it's a fashionable TURNAROUND. Very nice. Two young designers have a firm foothold in the hyper competitive world of clothing design.

D. DOLAN: The big question facing them is what's next? Stick around for that. But first of course, the top news headlines of this hour. Have a great Father's Day.

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