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Nancy Grace for July 12, 2005, CNNHN

Aired July 12, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live to Aruba for news straight from the courtroom. Does the state have a case in the disappearance of an 18-year- old Alabama girl, Natalee Holloway? Just hours ago, Aruban prosecutors begged a judge to put two of the men last seen with Natalee back behind bars where many people believe they belong.
Tonight, Natalee`s family even more on edge. The American team of specialists looking for their girl could be headed back to the States, leaving Natalee`s parents alone, alone to search the island, the beaches, and the ocean waters for their girl.

And we go live to Idaho. Tonight, Joseph Edward Duncan III, charged formally today, three counts of murder in the deaths of Shasta and Dylan Groene`s family in their own Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, home. What happened today behind closed door on that case?

And just released, as we go to air, details of 9-year-old Shasta Groene`s story of the kidnap of her and her brother, including the murders of her own family. It shows how Duncan methodically chose his prey, even staking out the Groene home for days using night goggles. We go live to Idaho.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

A date with Lady Justice today in an Idaho courthouse. Convicted sex offender Joseph Duncan III formally graduates from molesting children to three counts of murder one. Those charges announced right here on the NANCY GRACE show just last night.

And details of 8-year-old Shasta`s story, how Duncan selected his victims, staking out the home for days, even using night-vision goggles to spy on the home before attacking the family. Duncan already behind bars for kidnapping Shasta and Dylan. Today, the murders of their mom, their 13-year-old brother, and the mom`s boyfriend added to that felony indictment.

But first, live to Aruba. Day 44, Natalee Holloway vanishes into thin air from her high school senior trip. Dutch F-16 jets fly over the island, pick up no signs of the Alabama beauty. And tonight, an American search team could be headed home.

Just hours ago, Aruban prosecutors begged a judge to reverse the release of two brothers last seen with Natalee. Tonight, only one suspect, 17-year-old Joran Van Der Sloot, still behind bars.

In Aruba, Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway, and her stepmother, Robin; in New York, defense attorney Jason Oshins; in L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri; in New York, forensic psychologist Dr. N.G. Berrill.

But first, let`s go to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. Karl, bring me up-to-date, friend.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As you say, Nancy, a series of appeals today in Aruba. One of them, obviously, filed by the prosecution to get the Kalpoe brothers taken back into custody. They were released because a judge at that stage said there was not enough evidence to continue holding them, although officially they are still classed as suspects.

Another appeal also, but that by the defense attorney for Joran Van Der Sloot, saying that his client should be released from custody, there`s not enough evidence to continue to hold him.

And another appeal, as well, to allow -- or by the prosecution again to stop Antonio Carlo, defense attorney for Joran Van Der Sloot, being present during interrogation sessions.

Now, one judge took away the court transcripts, heard the evidence in court today from the defense, from the prosecution. He`s taking all that back tonight to the neighboring island of Curacao. He`ll mull that over with two other judges. And he`s expected to come back on Thursday with some kind of decision in these appeals, Nancy.

GRACE: Karl Penhaul, why does he have to fly and confer with other judges before he makes a decision? The way I see it, I think you outline three major issues. Do the Kalpoe brothers go back behind bars? They were last seen with Natalee Holloway. Can Van Der Sloot get out from behind bars? And can the defense attorney be there when Van Der Sloot is being questioned? Are those three issue on the table?

PENHAUL: Those are the three issues on the table. Now, the reason the judge has to take that back to Curacao now is that, under the Aruban legal system, appeals have to be heard by three judges. The judges from Curacao are presiding in this case to ensure some kind of impartiality. And so that`s why he`s taking it back to sit with his two colleagues, and he`s coming back on Thursday, we understand, with some kind of ruling.

GRACE: Karl Penhaul, don`t move. I want to go to Dave and Robin Holloway.

Mr. Holloway, do you have a problem like I do with all of these judges being so tight-knit? I mean, Van Der Sloot`s dad is a local judge, a judge wannabe. I`m sure they`ve all worked together before and know each other.

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: Well, that is a concern. But I`m hopeful that the impartiality will prevail and that we`ll get the right decision. Whatever decision that is, you know, we`ll just have to live with it and regroup.

GRACE: Robin Holloway, it`s my understanding that you guys have moved into the Holiday Inn, into Natalee`s old room where her mom was staying. Is that true?

ROBIN HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S STEPMOTHER: It is. Beth had to -- she`s here for -- just the duration. And she moved to a place that`s got a kitchenette in it, you know, it`s a little more like homey, just like an apartment.

But it feels so good just being right there where Natalee was and just -- you know, I keep expecting her to walk in that door any minute. But it`s reassuring to know where she was.


GRACE: Dave, why is the American search team heading home?

D. HOLLOWAY: Well, we had good news today at around 2 o`clock. They had a press conference and indicated that they`re going stay until at least Sunday, so...

GRACE: Oh, I`m so grateful.

D. HOLLOWAY: ... that gives me a little bit more hope.


GRACE: I`m so grateful. Now, where is it that they are searching? What are they doing?

D. HOLLOWAY: Well, they`re searching again around north of the Marriott with a dog team. They`re also searching more of the island areas where, you know, they feel like that -- where would a 17-year-old or these group of guys, where would they put somebody?

And you know, that`s just, I guess, working through their mind of where would you put somebody and then searching those locations.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.


QUESTION: Does the prosecutor have new evidence? Was there more presented against your client?

ANTONIO CARLO, ATTY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Not really. Today, there was no really new evidence.

QUESTION: How is Joran? How is his demeanor?

CARLO: He`s doing well. He`s holding up. He is very hopeful. And, again, today, he is continuing to maintain his innocence.


GRACE: To Karl Penhaul, Karl, there have been a lot of rumors swirling about new evidence for the state. What can you tell us about that?

PENHAUL: As far as we know publicly, Nancy, there is really no new evidence. What the prosecution had to do at this stage was really reveal much or, in fact, all, of the evidence they had to date against these suspects to allow judges to decide which way the appeal would go or not.

I do believe one of the defense attorneys did come out today mentioning some kind of new phone tap or some new evidence that have come from an Internet chatroom.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. There you see Van Der Sloot, the judge`s son, handcuffed to one of the Kalpoe brothers. Now, if that`s not a way -- a perfect opportunity provided by the police for them to get their stories straight, I`ve never seen one.

They`ve been carefully separated since the get-go in different cells, even different locations. And there they are, handcuffed together, taking a nice little ride through the country, just enough time to get their stories straight.

Karl Penhaul, what can you tell us about reports that have surfaced claiming that Van Der Sloot may have confessed to hiding Natalee`s body on day two of the investigation?

PENHAUL: Well, that was a report that came out in the "Diario" newspaper today. That`s Aruba`s largest newspaper, and is, obviously, widely respected on the island. You may remember, though, Nancy, that right back early in the days when those boys were first arrested, about the second or third day, a senior police source also told CNN that, on the basis of his understanding, one of the boys had made a confession.

In the subsequent days, they kind of appeared to backtrack from that, although that source did still stick to some kind of confession had been made. Obviously, though, it can`t be any kind of full confession, because if it was a full confession, in terms of, "I did something, and Natalee is in such and such a place," then one would assume that the rescue workers and police would already have gone and investigated that area, Nancy.

GRACE: Very quickly, to Natalee`s dad who is us tonight, Dave Holloway. Dave, I remember when those reports first surfaced. We were covering Natalee`s story then. What do you know? Have police told you anything about alleged confession on day two of the investigation?

D. HOLLOWAY: No, we`re not aware of any confession. That`s one of the reasons the Texas EquuSearch people extended their stay was due to this report that came out in the newspaper that they had buried her north of the Marriott. You know, we jumped on that, then, and got the dogs back out there thinking, "Well, maybe we missed something." And we continue to search that area to either confirm or deny whether that`s a true report.

GRACE: We`re going to bring in the whole panel when we get back. Jason Oshins, Debra Opri, and psychologist N.G. Berrill along, with Natalee`s dad and stepmother, and of course, Karl Penhaul, who`s been on the story from day one. Please stay with us.


NADIRA RAMIREZ, MOTHER OF KALPOE BROTHERS: I should have been worried, yes, but why? Why? I mean, they all the proof. We have patience. The boy had patience, our lawyers, myself, father, sister. And we try to hold up and give them their time to do their work, you know. But I know that they were innocent, and they will be out.




QUESTION: Can you give us your comments on -- there was an article yesterday in "Diario" saying Joran broke down the second day of interrogation and said that Natalee was buried? Can you give us any...

CARLO: I mean, that was outrageous. And I want to keep it at that.

QUESTION: Are you saying it`s false or did it happen?

CARLO: It`s outrageous. I will leave it at that.

QUESTION: It`s an outrageous report or is it incorrect? Is it fair to say that that did happen? Did he break down and say that they buried her?

CARLO: Of course not. Of course not. I have just said a moment ago my client is maintaining his innocence.

QUESTION: So we just need you to rebuke that article, then, because a lot of people saw it.

CARLO: I really don`t have to review anything that has been reported, you know? I determine what we`ll review or not, so that if you`re telling me that that was reported in newspaper, it`s outrageous. So you know, it`s the responsibility of those reporters that -- you know, they have to, you know, they have to report whatever they have to report.

QUESTION: But you`re maintaining it`s a false report?

CARLO: I`m maintaining it`s an outrageous report.


GRACE: Whoa, talk about parsing words. That was Van Der Sloot`s attorney refusing to refute a story that was printed there in Aruba that his client, the judge`s son, broke down and confessed to knowing where Natalee`s body is, the lawyer, again, refusing to refute it.

We extended invitations repeatedly to the family of Joran Van Der Sloot, his attorneys, Deepak Kalpoe, Satish Kalpoe, everybody, the whole kit and caboodle. Nobody wanted to appear or speak. We also issued an invitation to the prosecutor`s office. They`re playing the cards close to the vest. That was declined.

Very quickly to Jason Oshins, the veteran defense attorney, did you hear that? It was kind of like "Nanny Nanny boo boo, I`m rubber, you`re glue, bounce off me, stick on you, I don`t have to refute that. I`m going to dodge the microphone until you go away."

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, to you, possibly, as a prosecutor. But obviously, listening inside, he responded to the word "refute" by saying, "I don`t have to review anything." So there could have been a -- Nancy, there could have been -- clearly, there was a bit of a miscommunication between the reporter and the attorney. But clearly he indicated...

GRACE: Now, wait a minute. Your theory -- your theory is he couldn`t understand English?

OSHINS: No, I`m not saying that. I`m saying he responded...

GRACE: I like that.

OSHINS: Nancy, he responded to the word "refute" by saying, "I don`t have to review" -- review -- "anything." But clearly, in his language, he refuted everything possible by saying it was outrageous, outrageous.

GRACE: Outrageous that they found out about it? That...

OSHINS: No, that they reported that.

GRACE: OK, hold on. Let me throw this to the lions.

Debra Opri, you want to take a crack at this one? Come on, you want to tell me that lawyer with the law degree doesn`t understand English? Excuse me, wasn`t he speaking English?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: No, I`m not going for that piece of meat. That lawyer doesn`t want to talk to the media, period. They have their own ways of doing things down in Aruba. They`re privy to the Treaty of Rome for detentions and being held.

All of the evidence there is going to stay there. They will not release it to the media unless someone in the family, some of the suspects who have been accused who have seen the evidence, will talk. So right now, that lawyer is doing his thing. He`s just refusing to talk to the media. He understands everything more than we do.

GRACE: Gotcha. Hey, let me get -- Rosie and Brett, can you re-rack that lawyer? I want to prove to Jason Oshins this guy does understand English.

Yes, the one we just showed, Rosie.

And also, is it like father, like son, like attorney? Brett, could you roll back the video of the dad running, the sprint away from the questions about his son? You know, I think this says it all.

When I want to introduce the judge to you, I get a great shot of his behind. Oh, we have the (INAUDIBLE) first. OK, let`s go to that.

Take a listen, Jason Oshins. Let`s see if this lawyer understands English.


QUESTION: Can you give us your comments on -- there was an article yesterday in "Diario" saying Joran broke down the second day of interrogation and said that Natalee was buried? Can you give us any...

CARLO: I mean, that was outrageous. And I want to keep it at that.

QUESTION: Are you saying it`s false or did it happen?

CARLO: It`s outrageous. I will leave it at that.

QUESTION: It`s an outrageous report or is it incorrect? Is it fair to say that that did happen? Did he break down and say that they buried her?

CARLO: Of course not. Of course not. I have just said a moment ago my client is maintaining his innocence.

QUESTION: So we just need you to rebuke that article, then, because a lot of people saw it.

CARLO: I really don`t have to review anything that has been reported, you know? I determine what we`ll review or not, so that if you`re telling me that that was reported in newspaper, it`s outrageous. So you know, it`s the responsibility of those reporters that -- you know, they have to, you know, they have to report whatever they have to report.

QUESTION: But you`re maintaining it`s a false report?

CARLO: I`m maintaining it`s an outrageous report.


GRACE: I don`t know, Jason, he was asked, "Is it incorrect?" Dodged that bullet. Asked, "Is it false?" Second dodge, successful dodge. He keeps saying, "I don`t need to review these document." You`re still telling me there`s something lost in translation?

OSHINS: What the reporter asked him to do was to rebuke it. And he said in responding by that word, he said, "I don`t have to review it." But nonetheless, clearly, Nancy, he`s rebuking it or refuting it by...

GRACE: There`s the client`s dad. That`s his back side. That`s what he showed Karl Penhaul when Penhaul asked too many questions.

You know, hold on just a moment. We need a shrink tonight. And here on the set is forensic psychologist N.G. Berrill. You know, reports have also surfaced that Van Der Sloot has been advised, possibly by his father, by someone, that, without a body, there is no case, to clam up, don`t speak.

What family member in their right mind would say something like that?

N.G. BERRILL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, blood is thicker than water. So you know, you get a lot of families -- if they know about something awful has happened, they`re still complicit or willing to be complicit with hiding the truth. So that`s what he sounds like, a father who may know something and is telling his son to clam up so you don`t wind up in jail.

GRACE: I`m going to go back to Dave Holloway, along with Robin Holloway. This is Natalee`s father and stepmother joining us. They`re there on the island, along with Natalee`s mom vowing not leave without their girl.

Dave Holloway, do you really believe this judge, Van Der Sloot, and the son have told the truth?

D. HOLLOWAY: No. Obviously, the first day he told his son and the other boys to keep quiet and don`t say anything. Secondly, when Greta was at their house, he was sweating profusely. Thirdly, he indicated the no case, no body, or no body, no case.

And you know, his actions of running away, and then he spent about four hours with the Dutch reporters to give a one-minute statement that really said nothing. So you know, those things lead me to believe that he knows more than what he`s telling us.

GRACE: Dave, have you met him face to face?

D. HOLLOWAY: No, I have not.

GRACE: You know, it just seems to me that, instead of running away, he would want to speak to you and assure you that he and his son have nothing to do with Natalee`s disappearance.

D. HOLLOWAY: You`re exactly right. You know, all they`ve got to do - - you know, you`ve got three kids that`s holding up everyone`s lives, including the people here in Aruba. You know, I went searching yesterday afternoon. I told my wife, I said, "Look, I need to buy one of these papers and try to get someone to read it to me in Dutch."

And I ended up searching, and I ran across a lady that asked me, "Are you searching for Natalee?" And I said, "Well, yes, are you searching for Natalee?" And she said, "Yes." And I had a, you know, conversation with her. And she was from around here, and she indicated that a lot of her friends and family members were just like us, you know, wanting to find Natalee.

And that gives me great resolve in the fact that I know that, when the Texas EquuSearch leaves, they`re still some people here that are going to continue looking and help us find them and bring her home.

GRACE: With us, Natalee`s dad, Dave, her stepmom, Robin Holloway. They`re on Aruba. We`ll be right back with Karl Penhaul.

And what went down behind closed doors today in that case? And why behind closed doors?

Very quick to "Trial Tracking." Still no trace of 3-year-old Jennifer Cervantes, her 18-month-old brother, Brian, missing since Sunday when their maternal uncle and grandparents found dead in the Arizona home. Police say the children could be with their biological dad, Rodrigo Cervantes Zavala, headed toward Mexico.


SGT. KIP RUSTENBURG, MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The mother gave information that the father of the children, Rodrigo Cervantes Zavala, may have the children. He has allegedly made threats to the family about two months ago. We`re unsure whether the threats were made to her, her parents, or the children.


GRACE: Please take a look. If you are any information on Brian and Jennifer Cervantes, please call the Maricopa County Sheriff`s Office, 602- 876-1011.



BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: You know, Nancy, as each day passes, I really just become even more and more determined. And, you know, and I know with my faith and trust in God, I know he is supporting me and everyone in the United States, and, of course, you know, Natalee`s community of Mountain Brook, Alabama.

You know, that is what is carrying me through this. And each day, I`m able to do it and will be able to do it.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Aruba. Also looking for answers in the disappearance of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway. Today, a make-or-break day in the case.

Karl Penhaul, you`ve been on the case from the very beginning. When will we find out what happened behind closed doors in the judge`s office today?

PENHAUL: Very difficult to find out exactly what went on behind those closed doors because these sessions are closed to the media. They`re closed to the general public. They`re even closed to relatives and family members of those accused and of the victims.

We know, in three broad terms, that the prosecution was appealing for the Kalpoe brothers to be rearrested, that the defense attorneys were making an appeal for Joran Van Der Sloot to be released for lack of evidence, and that the prosecution was also calling for Joran Van Der Sloot`s attorney to be banned from interrogation sessions.

The exact nature of the arguments, and moreover the strength of the evidence that the prosecution had to present and the defense had to present, we don`t know any of that. And we won`t know any of that in the normal course of events. The next thing we should know is, on Thursday, when the judge comes out and makes some kind of ruling, Nancy.

GRACE: Dave Holloway, I`ve only got a few seconds left. But it must be terrible, not only not having your girl, but dealing with an entirely different legal system.

D. HOLLOWAY: It is. You know, you learn the system. And the system we`re under here is the system we`re going to have to work with. And I just hope that the 15 or 20 detectives that are currently working this case continue to work hard and the Aruban people continue their support.

GRACE: OK. Dave and Robin Holloway, our prayers are with you.

Everyone, stay with us.

R. HOLLOWAY: Thank you.



CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The investigative team has stated at this time, and according to the evident at hand, they believe that Joseph Duncan is the only person responsible for these crimes. Investigators continue to work on putting the pieces of this complex case together so they can forward that information to the county prosecutor`s office for additional charges.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Tonight, newly released documents, actually in the last couple of hours, that detail Shasta Groene`s eyewitness account to the kidnapping of her little brother, Dylan, now dead, herself, of course, and the murders of her mother, her 13-year-old brother and the mother`s boyfriend -- shocking, disturbing details from Shasta Groene. It all came out in a closed-door session today.

As you know by now, the alleged perpetrator in those murders and kidnaps, Duncan III, behind bars. He`s graduated from child molestation counts to three counts of murder.

Tonight, in Post Falls, Idaho, Shasta and Dylan Groene`s grandmother is with us, Darlene Torres. Thank you for being with us, Ms. Torres.


GRACE: In Houston, victims` rights advocate Andy Kahan. But first, let`s go to the "Spokesman Review" reporter, Jim Hagengruber. Jim, tell us what happened today regarding this case.

JIM HAGENGRUBER, "SPOKESMAN REVIEW": Well, what we understand is that it was a closed-door probable cause hearing, where investigators laid out evidence against Mr. Duncan. There apparently was enough evidence, and information was released, and charges are filed against Joe Duncan for murder and kidnapping.

GRACE: Well, what can you tell us about the statement from Shasta Groene?

HAGENGRUBER: Well, all I know from the notes that the investigators, that she apparently watched -- she said it was Joe Duncan was acting alone. Well, I guess we should back up a bit. And apparently, he was driving past the family`s home on Interstate 90, glanced over, saw Shasta and her brother, Dylan, playing outside in their bathing suits, decided right then and there that he was going to start looking at this -- looking into this family and spent two or throw nights or days scoping out the family, including using night-vision goggles...

GRACE: OK, hold on!

HAGENGRUBER: ... and just watching them.

GRACE: Hold on right there. Right there. We have gotten -- obtained a shot of what it looks like to actually look through night goggles. And as I`m showing you this -- Rosie (ph), could you show that, please, you or Bret (ph)?

Jason Oshins, I`m going let you go on that "not speaking English" defense. What kind of client would think to go out and somehow obtain -- oh, now, there`s a nice shot -- night goggles to spy on a family after seeing two kids playing in the front yard in their swimsuit? Look! Look! This is a type of picture this guy would have even seen!

OSHINS: Nancy, clearly, you`re dealing with someone who`s a premeditated, you know, psychopathic convicted, you know, sex offender who stalked his prey, like an animal would stalk in the wild, if you will. His focus was to perpetuate and fulfill his sexual needs by attacking this family.

GRACE: Night goggles! Night goggles! What kind of a perv goes and gets night goggles to spy on an 8-year-old kid?

OSHINS: Nancy, it`s someone who`s obviously become dedicated to his predilection for young children and so focused on it that he laid (ph) and stalked them.


OSHINS: It`s disgusting.

GRACE: For days. For days. And then, apparently, according to the reporter, Jim Hagengruber, all this came out in court today, documents just released today, and I`ve got them here, the reporters` -- the psychologists` notes. Ellie (ph), is this from the reporter or the psychologist, these notes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s Shasta`s statement.

GRACE: Shasta`s statement to the investigator. No, these are the investigator`s. So very quickly, the statements from the little girl as to what she endured -- and apparently, Debra Opri, as they were driving around with this guy, according to Shasta Groene, he explained how he had stalked them with night goggles for days on end. And Debra, take -- let me just tell you one more thing. In Minnesota -- Dusty (ph), can you get a shot of this? July, 2004, Debra, I`ve got the police report where the same guy, Duncan III, shows up at a middle school playground -- it`s straight out of a nightmare! -- with a videocamera, and tries to pull the pants down on two little boys, all right? And they identify him. What is -- straight out of a nightmare, Debra!

OPRI: Nancy, I`m a criminal defense attorney. I would never represent this horrific human being. He`s evil. He`s not sick, he`s evil. The bottom line is this. He should never, ever, ever have been out on that highway. He should have been put in jail. That judge should never have let him out on bail. That judge should have had a proper report. The judge didn`t do his job. He got out, and he had the ability to go stalking.

Is this man sick? No. I think he`s plain outright evil. And there`s one other thing that we all need to face up to here. That little girl, Shasta, her nightmare is going to resurrect itself if and when they drag her into that courtroom to testify against him, and he, again, will use her as a victim to get a good deal. He`s going to use her to get a life sentence and not the death penalty.

GRACE: You mean for her to avoid having to testify?

OPRI: Yes.

GRACE: You know what? I see your strategy. I don`t buy it. I think -- under -- you know, of course, under our constitution, with the right to confront, witnesses against you or your accuser, he`ll have the right to cross-examine her through his lawyer.

But I want to quickly go back. Let me go Andy Kahan. Andy, you`ve dealt with so many victims. I`m taking a look at what Shasta told. And she describes seeing her family lying there in ties, including her mother, then coming back through and seeing them then all bloody, the mom asking Shasta to cooperate with this guy. What kind of feelings of guilt is she going to have the rest of her life, Andy?

ANDY KAHAN, DIR. OF VICTIMS` CRIME OFFICE FOR MAYOR OF HOUSTON: Well, hopefully, she`s going receive some incredible counseling to put her -- get her through this ordeal. You know, I`ve talked with Shasta`s aunt, Suzanne Torres, several times. And we pretty have much have come to the conclusion how we`re going to take this negative and turn it into a positive. And that`s what we need to focus on right now, is not only just rebuilding her life, but ensuring that monsters -- other monsters like Duncan don`t continually get out and repeat and revictimize again.

I don`t know about you, Nancy, but I am getting just sick and tired of naming state laws after young children who`ve been repeatedly sexually molested by repeat sex offenders day in and day out. It`s time that we put our...

GRACE: You know what?

KAHAN: ... and put a stop to this.

GRACE: Andy, you just brought up something incredible. You know this guy had a blog, a Web log. Rosie, can you put up full screen number five? Not number one, number five, starting with this whole registration thing?

Listen to this, Andy. This is in this guy`s web log, speaking of laws to protect children. This is what Duncan wrote. "This whole registration thing is getting more and more like Nazi Germany. If someone were to propose a law like Megan`s law in the 1940s, that person would have been spat upon as a Nazi sympathizer."

Andy, Megan`s law is to protect little children, and he`s comparing it to Nazi rhetoric!

KAHAN: You know, being out on parole, probation or out on bond, like he was, is a privilege. And any of those that violate it, there should be zero tolerance. You know, Nancy, I was looking at it nationally, with over 550,000 sex offenders registered across this country, about 24 percent are in violation of their conditions of parole, probation or registry requirements, which means that there are over 130,000 sex offenders not in compliance. That is a public safety health crisis.

GRACE: Hey, Andy, very quickly, I`ve only got a couple of seconds left before we go to break. But when people want to look up the sex offenders are in their neighborhood, how do you do it?

KAHAN: Well, you go to your state Web site. In Texas, we have the Texas Department of Public Safety Web site. Each state should have a Web site. You should be able to enter in by zip code or by name. And I encourage all parents to check weekly, biweekly, because guess what? Sex offenders are transient. They move around quickly, and what one lists as an address today doesn`t mean they`ll there be tomorrow.

GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, to N.G. Berrill, our forensic psychologist. Tonight, newly released documents that actually just came out in court a couple of hours ago, statements by Shasta Groene as to her kidnap and the murder of her family. Doctor, Shasta states that this guy, the perp, the alleged perp, described what happened at the house to her. She also saw her mom`s body. She was told that they were killed, and this guy Duncan III actually showed her the hammer that he used or a similar hammer that he used to murder her family. Psychologically, why would you do that to a child?

N.G. BERRILL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think, in part, he was bragging. It may sound absurd that he would brag to a little girl, but you know, this is -- typically, the mindset is grandiose -- I want to let you know how powerful I am, how, you know, you really can`t escape someone like me, so I`m going to let you know what I did.

GRACE: You know, I also think, Doctor, that it may have been a form of subduing her and controlling her, mind control -- Look, this is the hammer I used on your mom.

BERRILL: Well, yes, by implication.

GRACE: If you speak -- you know that video we`ve got, Rosie (ph), of Shasta walking through the 7-Eleven, holding her arms like this and looking down? If I had seen that hammer, I don`t think I would have screamed out at the 7-Eleven, either.


GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.



WOLFINGER: Well, that`s still a great mystery, is how did he end up there? What`s his relationship with the family? And that`s something we just don`t have the answers to yet. In the court documents, it said that Shasta didn`t know Duncan before this. Steve Groene has said publicly he didn`t know Duncan. He`d never heard of the man before last Saturday. So that`s the great mystery that the investigators are still trying to put together.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m going to go straight out to Shasta`s grandmother, joining us tonight. This is Darlene Torres. You know, Mrs. Torres, when you hear this story of how he staked out the home, he didn`t know them, used night goggles and spied on them for such a long time, planned the attack, you know, a lot of times, people look back and say, What could I have done to avoid this? What did I do wrong? Clearly, the mom did nothing wrong. How can you protect yourself from somebody like that?

TORRES: There is no way you possibly could. She would never -- if she would have known this, she would have never let those children out of the house. I have no idea how you possibly protect the kids from that. They`ve got to be kids. You`ve got to let them out.

GRACE: Ms. Torres, I want to ask you about Shasta. I know she`s been spending a lot of nights at your place. How was she last night?

TORRES: She was great. She`s over at my house right now with my daughter, Brandy and my granddaughter, Kaysha (ph). And she was running through the sprinkler when we left -- when I left.

GRACE: You know, Ms. Torres...

TORRES: And she was just being a little kid.

GRACE: ... I`m so happy she has your place to go to. I mean, she`s lost so much of her family.

TORRES: We love her very much. And I would -- we`re just hoping for the best for her and...

GRACE: Is she going to have counseling, Ms. Torres?

TORRES: Oh, yes. Her dad took her in for -- to see the psychologist, or whatever it was yesterday. And that would determine how much she was going to need when and for how long. They thought they were going to kind of get into that yesterday. I haven`t heard...

GRACE: What`s going to become of the house?


GRACE: What`s going to become of the house, Mrs. Torres? I`m sure she doesn`t want to go back to that house.

TORRES: Oh, no, no, no. That house is in McKenzie`s name, which was Mark McKenzie, who was living there, and one of the victims. They`re thinking about -- I`ve heard several things. That`s been in that family for almost 60 years. The only reason Brenda was there, that was her grandma`s home. That`s where her dad had grew up himself. So that`s how she became to become in that home, in the first place. And she loved it out there. She loved the outdoors.

But that will be up to them. I`ve heard stories about they were going to tear it down and make a memorial out of it. But he`ll never sell the land, so we`re kind of hoping that`s what he does.

GRACE: Back to Jim Hagengruber with the "Spokesman Review." When do you expect any announcement regarding the death penalty?

HAGENGRUBER: Really, I don`t know. I can`t tell you that. We`re waiting for more word from the prosecutor. Tomorrow, I know that Duncan will be in court, making an appearance, I guess, to answer to these six new charges.

GRACE: And you know what`s interesting, Jason Oshins? In that jurisdiction, in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho -- I researched the law today and discovered that in that jurisdiction, you can get the death penalty for first degree kidnapping. Are you surprised?

OSHINS: No. Well, certainly, you know, within federal law, as well, you have that when your civil liberties are denied and you have the ability -- that`s what the feds call it. You have the ability to go for the death penalty there. And we`ll also the competing potential for the state of Montana, as they pursue a murder case with regard to the -- to the -- boy, the brother of Shasta, murdered there.

GRACE: You know, Debra Opri, many people believe the death penalty is only pronounced for murder. But in Idaho, first degree kidnapping can catch you the death penalty, as well.

OPRI: Well, let`s put it this way. They`re going to be asking for the death penalty with him.

GRACE: Oh, yes.

OPRI: But it`s going to boil down to the deal he strikes. And this man is not going to trial. This case will never go to trial. He`ll strike a deal for life imprisonment.

GRACE: No way!

OPRI: Well...

GRACE: No way!

OPRI: I`m hoping he gets the death penalty, but they`re going to push...

GRACE: OK, we`re on record tonight, Opri v. Grace. I`m saying DP. She`s saying deal.

You know, Jason Oshins, there have been many a time in a sex offense case -- rape, child molestation, men, women, boy, girl victims -- of course, they don`t want to testify. Nobody wants to testify in court. Nobody! But I guarantee you, when the little girl grows up and she`s 35, 40 years old, she`ll be glad that somebody thought, somebody went to court, win or lose, and she told her story and she looked the guy, stared him down and told her story. It`s hard, though!

OSHINS: Nancy, well, to you and other prosecutors, as well, you`re faced with that decision as you examine the mounds of evidence that you can go forward. And obviously, as you`ve done, you have to determine if you need that 9-year-old or that victim to go ahead and testify. And if you could spare, as Debra said -- and I`ll side with Debra, clearly, on this issue. If you could spare it, it`s important to...


GRACE: Hello! Lady Justice is blind. Lady Justice is blind.

OPRI: Always.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll all be right back. Breaking news tonight in the case of Shasta Groene and Duncan III, formally indicted, three counts of murder.

Let`s go to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Curtis Ray Carlisle, wanted in connection with the `92 murder of his wife, Letitia Franks, in Birmingham, Alabama. Carlisle, mid to late 40s, 6-feet, 170 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. Take a look. Any info on Curtis Ray Carlisle, call the FBI, 205-326-6166.

Local news coming up for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Florida teen drunk driving suit tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us as we remember Specialist Ryan J. Montgomery, just 22 years old, an American hero.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. If I could get that last screen, Rosie or Brett, full screen number four, regarding what Duncan had to say on his Web log. "Some day soon, I hope society will be forced to wake up and recognize how it propagates its own misery by denying the truth that criminals are victims, too."

OK. I want to go to Shasta`s grandmother. What do you have to say about that, Mrs. Torres, when you hear this guy say criminals like him are victims, too?

TORRES: I don`t see no victim about it. He manipulated. He controlled. He`s evil, just evil, like the other lady said, just plumb evil.

GRACE: And to Andy Kahan with the Houston mayor`s office. Andy, I`ve got a transcript that Debra Opri was referring to a few moments ago, where the judge in this case in Minnesota gave $15,000 bond to this guy. Then he went out, according to prosecutors, and killed Dylan Groene. And he`s told in court, Andy, this guy`s a sex offender.

KAHAN: Red flags should have went up immediately for that low bond. It is ridiculously inane. And I`ll tell you, it should have been taken a step further. First of all, once he found out he was a sex offender -- and obviously, he was not prepared for that -- he should have just simply reset it, asked for more information. And then even after he gave that inane low bond, he should have put an electronic bracelet on him.

And then when he violated his bond conditions, the minute when he failed to report to the probation office, bells and alarms should have went off. And as soon as that warrant was issued, when he was declared a fugitive, there should have been a media alert issued for the general public in order that they can help locate him and apprehend him. Something tells me that if there was an alert, he could have been found...

GRACE: I think you`re right, Andy.

KAHAN: ... and all this could have been prevented.

GRACE: Andy Kahan, I want to thank you, along with all of my fantastic guests tonight. I wish I could have visited with you longer. But as always, I want to thank you for being with us. Big thank you to the control room. You guys never get to see the rest of the team. Hi, everybody! Brett, Rosie -- where`s Elizabeth (ph)? There you go! Thanks, guys.

Thank you for being with us tonight, inviting us into your home. Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m signing off. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.


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