Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
U.S. Government Eavesdropping on Americans?; Iraq's Next Generation; PETA Under Fire
Aired December 16, 2005 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again, everyone.
We are going to tell a story tonight. It is all about spies and you and whether your government is spying on you.
That's next on 360.
ANNOUNCER: Secret eavesdropping on Americans.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Whatever I did to protect the American people, we will uphold the law.
ANNOUNCER: But is it within the law? And how's it done? A rare glimpse into the NSA, so secret, they say the letters stand for no such agency.
Iraqi children -- even the simple things are a matter of life and death. Can Iraq's next generation make it out of childhood?
And unwanted pets -- he wanted to find them shelter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were saying, my, what beautiful animals.
ANNOUNCER: Instead, they were euthanized. Who is accused of doing such a thing? Try the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
Tonight, 360 investigates.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360: "Turning Point in Iraq?"
Reporting live from Baghdad, here's Anderson Cooper.
And good morning, everyone. We are live in Baghdad.
The top story tonight, average Americans being spied on by their government. We will have that in a moment.
But, first, let's get you up to the minute on what's happening right now at this moment. A major political blow to President Bush today -- the Senate is not renewing some provisions of the Patriot Act that are due to expire. Senators from both parties said that parts of the act infringe on civil liberties. The Senate needed 60 votes to override a filibuster and end the debate. They only got 52.
In a vote today, the House of Representatives has refused to set a timetable for withdrawing troops from Iraq. Some Democrats want an immediate withdrawal or a timetable for the troops coming home. Republicans said today's vote split the Democrats three ways. Its opponents decried it as a political stunt.
President Bush is going to address the war, as you just heard from Larry King, in a live speech from the Oval Office on Sunday night. Officials say the president will examine the situation in Iraq and look at what happens next. That's going to take place Sunday night, 9:00 p.m. Eastern. Of course, we are going to bring that to you live.
And a Southwest Airlines crew stopped a jet on a runway just before takeoff today, after a passenger made a remark about a bomb. The flight was about to take off from Burbank's Bob Hope Airport, when the crew stopped the plane and called the police. The passengers and luggage were removed from the plane. The police search inside. No explosives were found.
We begin tonight with the bombshell of a story in "The New York Times" today, that, not long after 9/11, President Bush authorized the National Security Agency, the NSA, to intercept e-mail and tap phone calls made by Americans in this country, something forbidden by law.
According to the story, it accelerated after the capture of Abu Zubaydah, al Qaeda's chief of operations. Some of the phone numbers in question reportedly came from his laptop computer. The spying may have led authorities to break up a suspected plot to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge.
That said, it also reportedly made some in the intelligence community so uncomfortable that they flat-out refused to go along with it. And that, in turn, is nothing compared to the public outcry we are hearing today.
CNN's Justice correspondent, Kelli Arena, takes a look.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pressed for details about the program in a television interview, President Bush said he would not discuss ongoing intelligence operations, but did make this point.
BUSH: Whatever I do to protect the American people -- and I have an obligation to do so -- that we will uphold the law and decisions made are made understanding we have an obligation to protect the civil liberties of the American people.
ARENA: But news of the NSA program created an uproar on Capitol Hill.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: They tell us, trust us; we follow the law.
Give me a break.
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: We are a democracy. We are a democracy. Let's have checks and balances, not secret orders and secret courts.
ARENA: The Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter, vowed to hold hearings to investigate.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: When you got beyond the headline -- and starting with the headline that the president had authorized these wiretaps, surveillance of citizens in the United States -- that's wrong and it can't be condoned at all.
ARENA: The NSA eavesdrops on literally billions of communications overseas. Domestic eavesdropping is usually done by the FBI, and only after a warrant is approved by a secret intelligence court housed in the Justice Department.
But government sources with knowledge of the program say the president's order, issued in early 2002, bypasses all that to get intelligence more quickly.
JEFFREY SMITH, FORMER CIA COUNSEL: The administration bears a heavy burden to prove that that was really the case. In my experience, the court was, particularly after the passage of the Patriot Act, the foreign electronic surveillance court was very responsive to requests for warrants.
ARENA: Government sources say the phone and e-mail communications monitored by the NSA involves only those taking place between people in the United States and others overseas, as part of terrorism investigations.
They point out that, if information is developed leading to a full-blown U.S. investigation, the FBI takes the lead and warrants are sought.
(on camera): The problem is, without hearing from the administration on exactly what the order allows, we're left with a lot of questions.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
COOPER: Well, we wanted to take a -- a closer look, go farther in-depth on -- on the NSA this morning.
Chances are, you haven't heard of the NSA, which suits them fine, thank you very much. It's the largest intelligence outfit in the country. But, for years, it was so secret, Washingtonians joked that the initials NSA stood for no such agency.
After the Cold War ended, some of that secrecy lifted.
And, recently, CNN national security correspondent David Ensor dropped in on the men and women who can, from a technical standpoint, at least, eavesdrop on you or me or anyone else in the entire world.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From its headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland, the super secret National Security Agency eavesdrops on literally billions of communications worldwide.
MAUREEN BAGINSKI, DIRECTOR, NSA SIGNALS INTELLIGENCE: Secrets worth knowing, data that no one else can get.
ENSOR: But, for some, the awesome power of NSA's technology and its secrecy are a source of concern.
BARRY STEINHARDT, AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: What's happening, of course, is that the NSA says: "Trust us, we're the government. We won't abuse the law." But, of course, what they're really saying is: "Trust us, we're the government spies, and we won't abuse the law." But since there is no real check on them, there's no way to know that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "ENEMY OF THE STATE")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Satellite imagery coming through. ,.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Request keyhole visual tasking, maximum resolution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: In the 1998 movie, "Enemy of the State," NSA was portrayed by Hollywood as an evil Big Brother spying on Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "ENEMY OF THE STATE")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Let's get into his life.
GENE HACKMAN, ACTOR: See, the government's been in bed with the entire telecommunications business since the '40s. They have infected everything. They can get into your bank statements, computer files, e- mail, listen to your phone calls.
WILL SMITH, ACTOR: My wife's been saying that for years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: I made the judgment that we couldn't survive with the popular impression of this agency being formed by the last Will Smith movie. ENSOR: When General Michael Hayden saw the movie, he saw a problem -- an image problem. That is in part why the NSA decided to let CNN inside the NSA to see where code breakers gather, and code makers protect the nation's secrets. Above all, Hayden knows NSA cannot afford to be seen as trampling on the privacy rights of U.S. citizens.
HAYDEN: It has to be somewhat a secretive agency, OK, and right in the middle of a political culture that just trusts two things most of all: power and secrecy, OK?
That's -- that's a challenge for us, and that's why, frankly, we're trying to explain what it is we do for America, how it is we follow the law. Could there be abuses? Of course. Would there be? I am looking you and the American people in the eye and saying, there are not.
ENSOR: Hayden says NSA has not spied on Americans since the '70s, after it was found to be eavesdropping on Jane Fonda, Doctor Benjamin Spock, and other anti-Vietnam war activists. At that time, the law was tightened up.
But, when, for example, eavesdropping on a drug ring in Colombia, separating the foreigners, who can be legally bugged, from the U.S. citizens or residents, who cannot, is not always easy. And the NSA gets pressure from law enforcement agencies to help out with such cases.
JAMES BAMFORD, AUTHOR, "BODY OF SECRETS": It's a battle that goes on behind the lines in a great deal of secrecy. And how close they get to the line, or whether they slip over sometimes is a -- a matter that has to be watched closely.
ENSOR: In Europe, the debate about the NSA and privacy centers around these surveillance facilities in Menwithill, England. A European Parliament report suggested there may have been economic espionage by the U.S. to help American companies against European competitors.
(on camera): Is that true?
HAYDEN: No, and I really welcome the opportunity. And I'm glad you asked the question. That is absolutely not true.
ENSOR: However, Hayden says, if the NSA detects law-breaking, by law, it inform other U.S. agencies, like the State Department. So if, for example, it learns that a foreign company is using bribery to try to obtain a contract, that information does not remain a secret.
David Ensor, CNN, Fort Meade, Maryland.
COOPER: So, there's a lot about this story we do not know yet. We don't know exactly who was spied on under these -- these orders that President Bush signed off on. We can bet this story is not going away any time soon.
Coming up next on 360, when going out, even if it is just to the polling booth, is very special treat and a very dangerous one. We are going to take a look at how some of Iraq's children are dealing with life after Saddam Hussein.
And, after weeks on the run, a fugitive is confronted by police and ends up in hospital. We will tell you exactly what happened.
This is 360.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: A freelance journalist whom police suspect committed a shocking rape in New York City is in a fair -- in fair condition in a Tennessee hospital.
Peter Braunstein, who was on "America's Most Wanted" on Monday night, stabbed himself in the neck as a police officer approached him today in Tennessee, abruptly ending more than six weeks on the run.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRUCE HARBER, DIRECTOR OF UNIVERSITY POLICE, UNIVERSITY OF MEMPHIS: We called our officers in, gave them pictures of the individual that was on the Internet. And one of our officers was on patrol looking for the guy, actually, and encountered him here.
COLLINS (voice-over): Instead of surrendering, Braunstein took out a knife and stabbed himself in the neck. His capture was as bizarre as the crimes he's suspected of committing and the life this once successful book editor and fashion writer had come to lead.
Police say Braunstein bought a firefighter's uniform on the Internet. They say he wore it on Halloween night, when he set two small fires as a way to break into a former colleague's apartment. He allegedly drugged her with chloroform, tied her up with tape, and assaulted her for 13 hours.
His father said he was shocked to learn the man accused of this horrible crime was his own son.
ALBERTO BRAUNSTEIN, FATHER OF PETER BRAUNSTEIN: It was just devastating, devastating, because, reading about it, my first thought was, anyone who could -- who could commit such a thing must be emotionally disturbed.
COLLINS: Braunstein vanished, and so began a month-and-a-half- long game of cat and mouse with the NYPD.
He was featured on "America's Most Wanted," tracked to a midtown New York City hotel, spotted in Times Square, and may have used his metro card in a Greenwich Village subway station.
Some who know Peter Braunstein say his issues with women began long before his alleged crime. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is abusive. He is nasty. There's at least six women that I do know of, including my wife, that he's even threatened.
COLLINS: A look at his employment record shows Braunstein was a scribe with a dark side. His words were featured on an explicit Web site called "Getting It On," writing articles like "Commitment to Raunch" and "Wicked Women to Watch."
He was charged with stalking a former girlfriend and sentenced to probation and used another Web site to label her a "biohazard." Though he was estranged from his son for two years, Braunstein's father begged his father to stop running from the law.
BRAUNSTEIN: I'm pleading with him to turn himself in, before something drastic or tragic happens.
COLLINS: But his son didn't listen. And when confronted by cops in Memphis, he simply said, "I'm the person you're looking for," before attempting to take his own life.
COLLINS: We will go back to Anderson in Iraq in just a moment.
But, first, Virginia Cha from Headline News joins us now with some of the other stories we are following tonight.
VIRGINIA CHA, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Heidi.
Well, the prosecution will seek the death penalty against an 18- year-old accused of killing his girlfriend's parents. David Ludwig will also be charged with a firearms violation and statutory sexual assault. He's accused of killing the parents of 14-year-old Kara Borden because they objected to his relationship with her. Borden, who fled the scene with Ludwig, will not face charges.
A deadly ice storm hit the South, leaving more than a half- million homes and businesses without power. At least four people were killed in that storm, including a man who was lying on his couch at home when a 100-foot tree buckled from the ice and crushed him.
On the coast of Ecuador, meet the world's oldest person. Guinness World Records has given that title to Maria Esther de Capovilla, who is 116 years old. She was born the same year as Adolf Hitler and Charlie Chaplin. Her 79-year-old daughter thinks the secret to her mom's longevity is her calm disposition.
And one man's sadness is another man's joy. In Westboro, Massachusetts, a man found a $15,000 diamond engagement ring on the seat of his car, left anonymously. A note accompanying the ring said -- quote -- "Hopefully, this will hand in the hands of someone you love, for my love is gone now." The note also thanked the man for leaving his car unlocked. It makes you wonder what that was all about.
COLLINS: Yes, no kidding.
All right. We will check more into that.
Virginia Cha, thank you.
COLLINS: So, what's life really like in Iraq? Tonight, how Iraqi children cope in a world gone mad. What are their fears? Where is their laughter? And can they salvage a bit of childhood?
Plus, questions about the animal rights group PETA -- are they suggesting shelter for abandoned pets, but delivering euthanasia?
COOPER: Violence every day on the streets, people afraid to leave their homes -- what is life really like for children here in Iraq? Christiane Amanpour has that -- next on 360.
COOPER: This has been a very exhilarating week here in -- in Iraq, with the historic elections on Thursday.
But CNN's Christiane Amanpour, you have been spending time with Iraqi children, seeing what life is like through -- through their eyes.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
You know, it is always interesting to get it from the human perspective. And nobody is more vulnerable and more affected than the children. On the one hand, many of the ones we talked to said that they wish they were 18 years old and able to vote.
And I think emblematic of this election are the children's ink- stained fingers, many of whom proudly show that they voted.
But, look, it's been very difficult for them. It is a very difficult country to have a normal childhood in, as we found with a family who we spent time with.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): This is Iraq through the eyes of a child. Driving his car through a virtual reality, 13-year-old Anmar Rashid avoids what's actually out there.
"When I wake up every day, maybe I play computer games or play football in the street outside my house. That's how I spend my time," he says. Because Baghdad is so dangerous, fun and games, hanging out, a kid's life happens mostly inside. Just going to the elections with his family was a rare day out.
"We went and voted and I put my finger in the ink," he laughs.
The day after the election is a holiday, and Anmar's mother, Raghad, has cooked a special lunch.
"For me as a mother, of course, it is very difficult," she tells us. "I always try to keep them inside the house. I always make sure the door is locked. And I don't let them talk to strangers."
The family moved here four months ago because there was just too much violence in their old neighborhood. Anmar's 17-year-old brother, Karrar, was chased twice and nearly kidnapped by bandits.
"I'm not only still scared," he says, "but every time I tell the story, I feel terrified."
He now passes his time either at high school or on the computer chatting with friends and relatives outside Iraq. So, does their 18- year-old sister, Ula, grounded not just by the danger, but by tradition, too.
"For me, as a girl, I can't go outside alone," she says. "So, I spend my time in the house, helping my mother or chatting on the Internet."
(on camera): Do you have a boyfriend?
ULA RASHID, 18-YEAR-OLD IRAQI: No.
U. RASHID: In Iraq, no.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): On calm days, like this, with traffic banned and streets empty for the election period, children have a chance to be outside and feel safe. They can, at last, be children, playing soccer and riding bicycles.
But these days are rare, and the little ones tell us they're afraid of the explosions and the killing. Anmar, though, is feisty. Perhaps, it is his way of surviving this madness.
"When I go outside and play," he says, "it is like I defy the terrorists and I help get rid of them."
His parents can afford to take their children out of Iraq for holidays, and then they feel safer and saner. Their father, Ihsan, says he never expected things to be this bad in Iraq after Saddam.
IHSAN RASHID, FATHER: It's too much wars. Everything is -- is dangerous here in Iraq. So, I hope and -- and try and fighting to be their life is better life than my life.
AMANPOUR: He hopes the latest elections will be the beginning of a better life for his family and for his country.
AMANPOUR: I think that last thing that the father said sums it up. Every parent wants a better life for their children, wherever we are around the world. But, here, it's particularly resonant.
COOPER: It's also particularly hard to -- to get stories like that one. I mean, it's nice to see life of a family.
Talk about -- I mean, for -- for viewers who don't understand, it is very difficult spending time...
AMANPOUR: To go out.
COOPER: ... with families. Yes.
AMANPOUR: Well, it is, because, first of all, the danger. For everybody, it's difficult to go out.
And -- and people have been quite scared to have reporters in, to have cameras in. They don't want to be targeted. For instance, this family, I didn't want to go out in the street and film outside their house, because they -- they said they had just moved. They didn't know who the neighbors were. They were afraid. They didn't want to make too big a show of themselves.
Everybody is sort of trying to keep themselves, keep to the people they know, because nobody knows where the crime and the danger comes from.
COOPER: Yes. All right. Remarkable story.
A week in Iraq can sometimes seems like a lifetime. It is a reminder of just how many lives in this country are lived day by day, moment by moment.
Even during a pivotal week, there's such a thing as the daily grind -- when we come back, the patrols, the precautions and the progress being made in Iraq.
Also, the ethics of America's leading animal rights organization are called into question. Did PETA plan to save these pets or to kill them?
That story coming up on 360, from Baghdad and America and around the world.
COOPER: The animal rights group PETA under fire for what it is allegedly doing to abandoned pets. You're going to be surprised. That's coming up.
But, first, here's a look at what is happening at this moment.
President Bush says he's protecting Americans. That was his response to a "New York Times" report today that says, following 9/11, he authorized the National Security Agency, the NSA, to eavesdrop on people in the U.S. who telephone or e-mail people overseas. Mr. Bush has refused to confirm the report.
In Iraq, U.S. troops will likely be 12,000 fewer by early February -- that from a U.S. commander there, Army General George Casey. The reduction would take the number of troops to their pre- election level of 138,000. Casey suggests that further reductions are part of ongoing discussions he's having with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
The Air Force has OKed its new fighter jet, the F-22A, for combat. The craft has a price tag of $338 million each, roughly three for $1 billion. Officials say it can defeat any other aircraft in the world. Critics ask, what good is it against Iraqi low-tech enemies like Iraqi insurgents and Afghan rebels?
And an untimely death in Hollywood -- "The West Wing" star John Spencer suffered a fatal heart attack today, just four days shy of his 59th birthday. Spencer played President Bartlet's chief of staff and won an Emmy in 2002 as best supporting actor.
Now let's go back for more stories to Heidi in New York.
COLLINS: Hey, Anderson. Thanks.
You know, the animal rights group PETA estimates that between six to eight million unwanted pets wind up in shelters every year. Well, PETA wants them out. But you may be surprised to learn what these animal advocates consider a better option.
Take a look at what CNN's Rick Sanchez has learned. And we warn you, some of these images could be disturbing.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are the masters of the outrageous publicity stunt, picketing stars, protesting at zoos, storming fashion runways, PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
MARTHA STEWART, MARTHA STEWART LIVING OMNIMEDIA: That's why I agree to host this five-minute expose.
SANCHEZ: The darling of high-profile celebrities who support PETA's campaigns against the fur trade and animal cruelty.
PATRICK PROCTOR, AHOSKIE ANIMAL HOSPITAL: They will say one thing out this side of their mouth and they will say something out this side.
SANCHEZ: Here at the Ahoskie Animal Hospital in rural North Carolina, veterinarian Patrick Proctor was used to seeing PETA representatives, especially a woman named Adria Hinkle. Hinkle would stop by regularly when Dr. Proctor had unwanted animals, ones he thought PETA might be able to find a home for.
This past summer, Hinkle and her colleague, Andrew Cook, came by in their van for this cat, named Jet (ph), And two of her kittens.
PROCTOR: As they were picking them up and taking them out of the cage, they were saying, my, what beautiful animals. We will have absolutely no trouble finding homes for these.
SANCHEZ: Proctor and his staff believed that PETA representatives would try and find the cats a home. They had no reason to believe otherwise.
But police, who had been tipped off about dead animals being dumped behind a local supermarket, were already following Hinkle and Cook, first to a county shelter, where they picked up more animals, then to this dumpster, where police say the pair dumped 18 dead animals, including Jet the cat and her two kittens.
(on camera): And, inside this van, they found another 13 dead animals, and they also found something else. They found something they refer to as a death kit, which is essentially a toolbox filled with hypodermic needles used to inject into the animals to put them to sleep. Police say that tells them there was no intention of finding homes for these animals.
(voice-over): The veterinarian and his staff say they were duped.
PROCTOR: And I'm assuming that they were put to sleep by the time they left the parking lot.
SANCHEZ: Police are also convinced Proctor was duped. That's why they're charging Hinkle and Cook with obtaining the animals under false pretenses and animal cruelty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm just devastated. And all that I wanted to do was help the animals in the community.
SANCHEZ: Hinkle and Cook's boss, who is PETA's founder, is defending her employees. At a news conference shortly after the arrests, Ingrid Newkirk did call the dumping of bodies -- quote -- "hideous," but said nothing about the alleged deception used to obtain the animals.
INGRID NEWKIRK, PRESIDENT, PEOPLE FOR THE ETHICAL TREATMENT OF ANIMALS: What she did was -- was wrong with the bodies. But she didn't cause suffering or pain or misery or anything like that.
SANCHEZ: To PETA's critics, this was like Christmas in July. Even before the arrests, David Martosko had started this Web site, PETAKillsAnimals.com, after obtaining records from the state of Virginia showing how many animals PETA eradicates in the state each year.
DAVID MARTOSKO, CENTER FOR CONSUMER FREEDOM: In 2003, PETA killed 85 percent of the flesh-and-blood creatures that came in. By comparison, the Norfolk SPCA, which is just down the road three miles or so, has a euthanasia rate that's less than one-third of PETA's.
SANCHEZ: Martosko freely admits his group, funded by the food and beverage industry, is at war with PETA, because of PETA's opposition to meat-eating.
(on camera): You have an axe to grind here.
MARTOSKO: Oh, absolutely.
SANCHEZ: Martosko agrees with PETA, as does the veterinarian Proctor that euthanasia is necessary. There are simply too many animals and too few owners. But:
MARTOSKO: If PETA were really serious about helping animals, it would spend some of its $29 million that it took in last year caring for these creatures, instead of killing them. And PETA has said that it could become a no-kill shelter immediately, but it would just be too darn expensive.
SANCHEZ: If this case is doing anything, it is putting the spotlight on the fact that PETA does euthanize animals. We came here to the headquarters in Norfolk, Virginia, to ask them about that.
And we also wanted to ask them about which, if any, of Hinkle's Cook's alleged acts they condone. A PETA representative would only tell us by telephone only that this is not the right time for an on- camera interview.
(voice-over): Not with Hinkle's and Cook's case coming before the court, although PETA is using the case to make one thing perfectly clear: Euthanasia is a big part of what they do in North Carolina.
NEWKIRK: We haven't gone down there to say, hello, we are an adoption agency. We are not. We are the shelter of last resort, if you want to put it that way.
SANCHEZ: Ironically, PETA has just sent Proctor a Christmas card. It shows reindeer being freed from Santa's sleigh.
(on camera): What does this tell you as a veterinarian?
PROCTOR: This tells me exactly what PETA is about. This tells me that PETA doesn't want you to have an animal.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): In fact, PETA refers to the animals not as pets, but as companions.
PROCTOR: This is a sibling of the litter of cats that... SANCHEZ: Remember the cats who were found dead and dumped? This is Vega (ph). Look familiar? It's because he was adopted before PETA reps arrived to take away his mother and two sisters.
PROCTOR: If we knew what they were going to do with the mother, that one would have been at my house right now. My wife is still very upset about that.
SANCHEZ: Upset that an organization founded to protect animals is alleged to have deceived to kill them instead.
SANCHEZ: It's important to note that we did try to contact attorneys for Cook and Hinkle, but didn't hear back from them.
PETA representatives originally had told us that they wouldn't be able to talk us until this case is concluded. But, earlier tonight, Ingrid Newkirk and president of PETA, agreed to an on-camera interview.
SANCHEZ: Do you condone, in any way, the actions of Mr. Cook and MSNBC Hinkle?
NEWKIRK: It depends what you're talking about.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's be specific, then. Let's talk about what they're alleged to have done, as far as deception is concerned, that they went to a veterinarian and said that they could find some homes for the kittens and the cat, all three of them. And the veterinarian alleges that they really had no plans the find the homes, that, in fact, they went ahead and euthanized them.
NEWKIRK: It doesn't make any sense at all.
In fact, most of this case doesn't make any sense at all. If the veterinarian couldn't find homes for a few kittens and a cat, which is surprising, if they have clients coming in, then that's why they called us, because they know we don't have a magic wand either.
SANCHEZ: But -- but he -- but -- but...
NEWKIRK: That is, in fact, Rick -- that is, in fact, Rick -- that is the veterinarian, the same veterinarian who we pay to euthanize at one of these shacks, which is called a pound, down there, where they used to shove the animals into a cinder block box.
SANCHEZ: You're absolutely right. In fact, he told us that he works for you and -- by euthanizing many of those animals.
But he says that, in this particular case -- and we talked to two other witnesses who say they heard Ms. Hinkle say, we are going to try and get these pets a -- a home, these animals a home.
Is -- is -- is that deceptive enough for you to want to act on?
NEWKIRK: It would be if that's what happened.
SANCHEZ: And, if so, why are you standing by her?
NEWKIRK: How many times do I beat my wife?
It would be deceptive, if that's what she said. I do not believe for a minute that's what she said, because that's not what we are about. If you go to our Web site, and you watch what we're doing, and you look at the man -- the number of animals we take in, the bedraggled, broken bodies that we take in, and the ones no one can find homes for, we're not out there looking for animals you could place.
We're getting calls from the public. And that vet called us -- or that vet's assistant called us. He wasn't even present, so I'm not sure how he knows what was said.
SANCHEZ: So, you're saying that they're not necessarily telling the truth.
Let's move to another issue. Let's talk...
NEWKIRK: I don't believe they are.
And I will tell you this. The vets down there need to stop taking in money, and stop having us pay them for everything, and start spaying and neutering at a reduced fee, because those counties desperately need it.
SANCHEZ: Do you think people would be surprised to know just how many animals your organization euthanizes?
NEWKIRK: Yes. I absolutely do, even though we have been trying to tell this story for years, because, unless people know, then they're not going to start spaying and neutering.
They're going to keep going to the pet shops and to the breeders. And that is death for the animals who are sitting in the pounds and shelters, even the good ones, not these shack cities down in North Carolina, but even the good ones.
Animals are dying for homes. And, yes, if you know there's something wrong when an organization who won't kill an animal for a sandwich or for a bit of a fur coat is actually having to hold them in their arms and give them an exit from a world that doesn't want them, that means there's a problem. And we need everybody to pitch in and...
SANCHEZ: But let's be fair.
NEWKIRK: ... spay and neuter.
SANCHEZ: Let's be fair and do a comparison, though. SPCA, for example, has about a half the euthanasia rate that you have. NEWKIRK: Which SPCA?
SANCHEZ: According to officials in Virginia, they say -- they say that you euthanized 86 percent in 19 -- in 2003, 86 percent of the animals that you took in for adoption.
NEWKIRK: Yes, Rich (sic). Yes. Yes.
You're talking about the Norfolk SPCA, I believe, which is a closed-door shelter. They do not take in very many animals. They only take in those that they think they can place. And some of those animals have been there circling in their cages for years. That is no comparison.
We are -- we very much support the open-admission shelters, the ones who don't close their hearts and their doors. And we are not a shelter for adoption. We're a shelter of last resort, which means that, if the animal is aggressive, has been on a chain his whole life, not the kind of animal anyone wants, who's cute and fluffy and housebroken...
SANCHEZ: Well, just for the record...
NEWKIRK: ... or is aged or -- or is aged or...
SANCHEZ: Just -- just...
NEWKIRK: ... or is aged or injured -- excuse me -- we are the shelter of last resort.
So, please, I mean, you know, I adore animals with all my heart and soul. I have worked my whole life for them. So, if I'm holding one in my harm arms and putting them to sleep, you can bet your boot something's very wrong with that poor dog or that cat.
SANCHEZ: Ingrid Newkirk, we thank you tonight for going on the record. We appreciate it.
NEWKIRK: Thank you.
COLLINS: From forbidden law to a possible death sentence -- what really happened in the hours before and after the double murder that stunned a small Pennsylvania town? How did a teenage romance end in such violence?
Plus, life in Iraq, how much has really changed? Realities big and small in a week that made history -- a reporter's notebook, Anderson's notebook, coming up next on 360.
COLLINS: It's the kind of crime that rattles a small town to its core, the bloody double murder -- the suspect, a local teenager -- the case, a volatile mix of young, forbidden love, deadly violence and a cross-country car chase.
Today, prosecutors said they would seek the death penalty at trial. They also said the suspect would be charged with sexual assault, as well as murder.
Tonight, we know much more about the case they're building.
Here's CNN's Adaora Udoji.
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just 18 years old, police say David Ludwig was looking for a happy ending to his secret relationship with 14-year-old Kara Borden. Now that yearning has led to a call for the death penalty.
DONALD TOTARO, LANCASTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Warwick Township Police charge defendant David Ludwig with two counts of criminal homicide.
UDOJI: Ludwig, a seemingly ordinary teenager from rural Pennsylvania, created his own Web site. On it, he claimed an expertise in computers, volleyball and getting into trouble.
David and Kara were both homeschooled. She had her own Web site, too, writing about her love of Jesus. Prosecutors say their romance crashed to a halt on November 13, after Kara's parents caught her sneaking home after being out all night with Ludwig. They immediately summoned him back to their home.
(on camera): Today, prosecutors released many of the details of what they say happened that day, saying Kara's parents told Ludwig -- quote -- he could no longer see Kara and he was instructed to go home.
TOTARO: He sat for five to 10 minutes, thinking in his own mind what he should do, and looking at Kara.
UDOJI (voice-over): Investigators say, within minutes, Ludwig shot Kara's father, Michael Borden, in the head, then her mother, Cathryn, killing them both.
Kara's younger sister, Katelyn, fled to a bathroom, prosecutors say. And she could hear Ludwig yelling -- quote -- "Kara, come out. I'm not going hurt you."
Ludwig then fled, Kara with him. Back then, the question was whether she had been kidnapped.
RICHARD GARIPOLI, WARWICK TOWNSHIP, PENNSYLVANIA, POLICE CHIEF: She's a victim right now, and she will stay a victim, unless I hear otherwise.
UDOJI: Prosecutors say, they learned after the couple was caught in Indiana a day later that she had gone willingly. However, the question remained whether she had helped plot the murders. Police interviewed 10 people, pored through thousands of e- mails and other documents, and took critical statements from Ludwig. Today, prosecutors read from what they said were his words about Kara and the idea of killing her parents.
TOTARO: "I had mentioned it to her as a possibility to get away. She did not give me a yes or no on whether she thought it was a good idea. That was all my doing."
UDOJI: Officials do say, however, the teenagers had talked about running away together. Ludwig's attorney had no comment.
Next month, the young man will be back in court, starting the fight for his life.
Adaora Udoji, CNN, New York.
COLLINS: On patrol with the troops in Iraq. From Black Hawk to Humvee, Anderson takes a first-hand look at the dangers soldiers face on the streets.
Plus, they're the 21st century equivalent of a diary, but far less private. What dark secrets are teenagers revealing in their Web logs?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was dubbed the Long Island Lolita, the fodder of tabloids and the center of a media tempest.
Amy Fisher was just 16 years old when she shot and seriously injured the wife of her lover, Joey Buttafuoco, in 1992. She pleaded guilty and was sent to prison. Fisher was paroled in 1999, after serving seven years.
To escape the stigma of being recognized as Amy Fisher, she had plastic surgery. She turned down hundreds of offers to capitalize on her fame, even a cool million to pose in Playboy.
In 2004, her best-selling autobiography was released. "If I Knew Then" offers details of her affair with Buttafuoco and her time behind bars.
AMY FISHER, AUTHOR, "IF I KNEW THEN": I was even raped in prison. I put this in the book, so other people out there, when they read it, not that they feel bad for me, but they -- but they get the message of, do not do the things I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fisher met a man through an online dating service and became a wife and mother. She is now an award-winning columnist for "The Long Island Press." FISHER: I feel like I'm at a point in my own life where I'm happy, I'm stable, I have a great career.
COOPER: It is nearly 7:00 a.m. here in Baghdad.
A new day is just beginning at the end of -- of an extraordinary week here, a historic week in -- in this country's long and bloody history, a week of progress, to be sure. There's no doubt about that.
As we have been traveling around this week and -- and reporting and broadcasting, in addition to my cameraman, Phil Littleton (ph), I have been traveling around with a little small home video camera, trying to sort of record behind the scenes and -- and take you along on the journey, what it's like being here.
We call it a reporter's notebook. This is what the week looked like to me.
COOPER (voice-over): When you arrive in Iraq, a bulletproof vest is the first thing you get. The guards hand it to you at the airport.
(on camera): The airport road used to be among the most dangerous roads in the world. There were a lot of suicide bombings, a lot of sniper attacks. They say it's much safer now. We will see.
(voice-over): You're bundled into a car, drive away fast. On the highway, other cars appear. And the truth is, your heart skips a beat. The road is safer, however, more Iraqi checkpoints, more patrols. But fear can make everything look different.
We try to break out, go to different towns, different places, gauge for ourselves what progress has been made.
ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK. Cool.
COOPER: That's Arwa Damon, a CNN producer. She's fluent in Arabic and has worked here for years.
We catch a ride on a chopper, a Black Hawk, to Baquba. From the air, it all seems so clear. From a distance, I suppose, everything always does.
On the ground, in a Humvee, the view, it's, well, more complex, locked and loaded on patrol, on high alert.
(on camera): You go out on patrol because you want to see for yourself what kind of progress is being made here in Iraq.
And one of the things that really strikes you when -- you know, when you go out on these patrols is, you know, just how little we -- we really see of Iraq on -- on the -- on the evening news in the United States.
So much of what these soldiers are doing every day, day in and day out, around the clock, just never makes the nightly news. It doesn't make headlines.
(voice-over): Progress is slow, but it's there to be seen, more businesses open, more life on the street.
(on camera): For soldiers here, the patrols can often be very boring. It's hour after hour, driving around through the same neighborhoods, on the same streets. And that's, frankly, a danger.
U.S. troops really have to fight against complacency, because, just when you think things are -- are normal and calm, that's when a bomb will go off.
(voice-over): Captain Patrick Moffitt (ph) was hit just two weeks ago, a bomb planted in a parked car.
COOPER (on camera): ... the vehicle that bomb...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. This is -- this is what is remaining of it. There wasn't much left.
COOPER: And was there a person inside?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes, there was a man inside the vehicle, one guy. I actually think that is still his sandal. And we saw parts of the guy on the truck.
COOPER: You actually saw parts of the guy on the -- your truck?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. His small intestines were on the hood. So...
COOPER (voice-over): At every stop, kids surround the soldiers, looking for handouts. Sometimes, the soldiers teach them new words. Today, it's disco.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILDREN: Disco. Disco. Disco.
COOPER: On American bases, every day is different, every day the same. The mud coats your boots. It feels like you're stuck in concrete.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not going to come off. It's there forever. It is Iraqi mud.
COOPER: The soldiers fill their bunks with TVs and calendars of women, marking the day until they can return home.
On base, you can buy fake watches and the latest bootleg films.
(on camera): Most popular right now is 50 Cent, "Get Rich or Die Trying."
(voice-over): Small slices of America, big reminders it is not, the wall of heroes, a brigade's remembrance of the soldiers they have lost, silent faces, sacred memories, so many sacrifices, so many stories, American, Iraqi.
Every day, you struggle to see life here from all sides.
COOPER: Well, trying to see life from all sides, the two faces of the new Iraq when we come back, two men who want to lead the country in very different directions.
And, later, the tsunami that tore up thousands and thousands of lives a year ago -- could it happen here? The answer may scare you.
And imagine being a prisoner of your own appetite. It is genetic and it's a life sentence, always feeling hungry. Imagine.
A break first. From Baghdad and around the world, this is 360.
COOPER: Is our government spying on us? A disturbing new report today of Americans eavesdropping on Americans. We will show you how it's done -- 360 next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com