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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Terri Schiavo Remembered; Zacarias Moussaoui Shocks Courtroom; Death to Christian Converts?

Aired March 27, 2006 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, we pick it up right where you left it off, with Terri Schiavo, who died a year ago this Friday.
Now, whether she knew it or not, her story touched off a national conversation on death and dying, not to mention family and the law -- that conversation goes on. Sadly, a year later, so does the family warfare that came with it -- all angles tonight.

In a moment, we will talk with Terri's parents about what they now think happened to their daughter. They're out with a book. So is Michael Schiavo, as you just heard on Larry's program, Terri's husband. We will hear more from him as well -- all sides tonight, in their own words.

First, though, Terri's story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has been reported to us that Terri Schiavo has passed away.

ANNOUNCER (voice-over): It was that announcement, just a year ago, that ended a seven-year battle for the family of Terri Schiavo. It was a battle that few who witnessed will ever forget. Terri suffered a heart attack in 1990, when she was 26 years old, and was eventually diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state.

Her husband and legal guardian, Michael, stayed steadfastly by her side, even earned a nursing degree to help him better care for his wife. But, in 1998, he told a court he accepted that his wife would never get well and petitioned to remove the feeding tube that was keeping her alive. It was a decision Terri's parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, simply couldn't accept. They fought their son-in-law in courtroom after courtroom, insisting, her feeding tube should be reinserted, insisting, their daughter was awake, alert, and would one day improve.

ROBERT SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: She is weak from the lack of food and hydration, but her skin tone is not breaking -- she is fine. She is not -- nothing's breaking down.

COOPER: The Florida legislature and the state's governor, Jeb Bush, took up the fight to keep Terri's feeding tube intact, enacting Terri's Law, and assigning a guardian to look out for Terri's interests.

But even the guardian couldn't deny what doctor after doctor diagnosed.

JAY WOLFSON, FORMER LEGAL GUARDIAN OF TERRI SCHIAVO: The medical evidence indicates she's in persistent vegetative state.

COOPER: The Schindlers insisted that Terri was a devout Catholic, who could never support euthanasia. Her husband said she made her wishes clear long before her heart attack. She wouldn't be want to kept alive in this condition.

They accused Michael Schiavo, living with another woman he later married and starting a new family, of abuse and neglect. But the odds were against them. Of five doctors appointed by the court to study Terri's case, only one insisted the diagnosis was wrong.

DR. WILLIAM HAMMESFAHR, NEUROLOGIST: She did respond to me, when I saw her. And, apparently, she still is responding to people. You know, she looks at you. She focuses on you.

COOPER: With court after court ruling against them, and despite a last-ditch effort by the U.S. Congress to intervene, on March 26, 2005, the Schindlers said, their legal options had been exhausted. The fight was finally over.

Terri was given last rites the next day. And, on the morning of March 31st, with her husband, Michael, by her side, she died. President Bush offered his condolences and kind words for the Schindlers.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I appreciate the example of grace and dignity they have displayed at a difficult time.

COOPER: But, after a bitter seven-year struggle, it was clear, some wounds might be impossible to heal.

SUZANNE VITADAMO, SISTER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: After these recent years of neglect at the hands of those who were supposed to protect and care for her, she is finally at peace with God for eternity.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, the target of her anger, by and large, is Michael Schiavo. His book is titled simply "Terri: The Truth." He appeared earlier tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- his story on the story in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

MICHAEL SCHIAVO, HUSBAND OF TERRI SCHIAVO: For 15 years, I have been vilified. I have been called a murderer. I -- I have been told that I strangled Terri, I abused her, I broke her bones.

It's my turn to talk now. And I'm setting the record straight. And our children are being threatened with death. They wanted to come in -- they -- people were writing us letters. And, you know, they were stating that: Children disappear. You want to watch your backs. You want to -- and, then, they -- at the bottom of the letter, they would -- they would quote the scripture.

So, it became a thing about our children. She was very frightened for our children. I spent the night with her. I could see -- as a nurse -- and I could see that Terri was changing. Her breathing was changing. It would be a little abnormal for a while, and then go back to normal.

And, so, I spent the night with her. I stayed by her side. I got around to the side of the bed, and I can see that Terri had taken the big -- a big change.

I knelt down beside her, Larry. I cradled her in my arms. And I told her I love her.

It's still hard to this day.

And I told her it's OK. I was just in it for Terri, not anybody else. I -- you know, I took care of Terri. I protected Terri. And I did a good job at it. I miss -- I miss the face I once fell in love with and behind me in school.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, that was Michael Schiavo a short time ago.

Terri Schiavo's parents say, of course, he is anything but the loving husband he appears to be. Bob and Mary Schindler have written a book as well. It's called "A Life That Matters: The Legacy of Terri Schiavo -- A Lesson For Us All."

We spoke earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: The book begins with the words: "We are not the people you think we are. You might easily have the misconception that we're political people, unreasonable people, even fanatics."

Why did you want to start that way?

MARY SCHINDLER, MOTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: We never, ever thought that this would get as big as it did. When we had the trial, I kept saying to my family: "I -- I'm not going to worry. There's no one that's going to starve an innocent woman to death."

COOPER: I mean, there has been an autopsy now, which showed that her -- her brain was about half the size of -- of -- of a normal brain, that -- that there was so much brain damage, they say she was -- she was blind.

B. SCHINDLER: Yes. Well, I can -- that -- that had -- there has been rebuttals on that, too, by professionals.

M. SCHINDLER: And our book explains all that.

B. SCHINDLER: Yes. But I think the whole point was, regardless of what condition Terri was in, we still would have accepted Terri. We loved Terri. And she was interacting with us. So, that was our whole thing. So...

COOPER: Why do you think it was that -- that Michael so wanted to have the feeding tube removed?

M. SCHINDLER: I don't know. I really don't know.

COOPER: He says, though, he had a conversation with her. She was about 22, I think, at the time, and -- and in which she indicated, if -- if something like this ever happened, that she would not want to live like -- why is -- why are you so convinced that she never had that conversation with him? Is it because she didn't have the conversation with you, or do you think she just...

M. SCHINDLER: No, but she wasn't that type person. She was loving and caring and happy and care-free. And she was 22 years old. I just don't think it ever happened.

COOPER: So, why do you think Michael said that he -- that there was that conversation? Why do you think he wanted the feeding tube removed? Was it money? Was it...

B. SCHINDLER: Well, there was an inheritance...

(CROSSTALK)

B. SCHINDLER: Inheritance there initially.

COOPER: So, it's as simple as that for you? This boils down to a case of money?

B. SCHINDLER: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: He wanted money, and he was willing to murder her for it?

He says that this may have been about money, but it was on -- on -- on your end, really. He recounts what he said happened between you two after this malpractice. Seven hundred dollars was rewarded. He says, "He stood up straight" -- meaning you, Bob -- "He stood up straight, pulled his shoulders back, pointed at his daughter, who was sitting in the chair, staring off into space, and said, 'Well, how much is she going to give me?"

(CROSSTALK)

B. SCHINDLER: He had just testified that a few months earlier than that with the malpractice that he wanted that money for Terri's rehabilitation.

M. SCHINDLER: Right.

COOPER: Right.

M. SCHINDLER: So, we were so excited when we went up there that day. We were ecstatic. We said, now we can take her to Shands Hospital and get her rehabbed.

He says: "There is no money. There will be no money." He said: "I want you to leave. This is my wife, and I will take care of her."

And he threw us out of the nursing home.

B. SCHINDLER: Yes.

COOPER: I want to play something that your son Bobby had said on -- on "LARRY KING LIVE" a while back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE," MARCH 28, 2005)

BOBBY SCHINDLER, BROTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: We have collected or gathered a tremendous amount of evidence that possibly suggests something violent happened to my sister the night she collapsed, and it -- it could have been -- it could be that Michael doesn't want Terri to ever speak again, because, if she did, she could shed some light on what happened the night she collapsed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Now, did -- I mean, he's basically alleging that -- that Michael had something to do with -- with Terri's collapse that night. Do you -- do you believe that?

M. SCHINDLER: Well, you know what, Anderson? There's two people that know what happened to Terri that night. One of them is dead. And something did happen to her.

COOPER: Subsequently, the autopsy was done showed no indication of...

M. SCHINDLER: Well, something happened to her, OK? Something happened to her that night.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: But I think a lot of people maybe look at this and -- and think, you know what? These are just two family who, you know, saw this differently.

M. SCHINDLER: She didn't have to die. There was nothing wrong with Terri. She was so healthy. She could have lived to be 60 years old. Why do you have to kill them?

COOPER: You -- you wrote that, "I think Terri was selected by God as a messenger."

What do you think is her message? What is her legacy?

M. SCHINDLER: Terri woke up the world, when she died like this. Nobody expected...

(CROSSTALK)

M. SCHINDLER: ... people -- somebody -- to starve somebody to death in America now, in this day and age, or any day and age. I mean, they actually starved her to death. I still keep saying that to myself every day. I can't believe it. I cannot believe it.

You have no idea what -- it's the most horrific, horrific death you would ever want to see in your life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: That was Mary Schindler and her husband, Bob -- much more ahead tonight on 360.

Were five planes supposed to have been used on September 11? You will not believe what convicted terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui said today. It shocked the court, to say the least. We will have the latest on his confession.

Also tonight, murder of a minister -- police say his wife has confessed to shooting him in the back. The question is why -- many questions tonight, in fact. We will have the latest on the case and talk to her attorney.

And this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe people have demons in them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say it's close to half the population.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Meet the exorcist. He says he can get the devil out of Americans. But is he saving souls or just making money? Judge for yourself ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, some disturbing news tonight about the security -- or lack of it -- at the nation's borders. Get this: The Government Accountability Office said today that undercover investigators were able to take radioactive material, enough to make two dirty bombs, through two points of entry, one of them in Washington state, the other in Texas.

Officials say radiation -- radiation alarms did go off, but custom -- customs agents let the investigators go by because they carried convincing, but forged documents. It is a frightening thing to think about that, that could have happened, I mean, if those investigator were, in fact, terrorists. And that, of course, brings us to Zacarias Moussaoui and a stunning day in court. Today, in testimony that may have sealed this guy's fate, the convicted al Qaeda member described how he was supposed to have -- to have taken part in the September 11 terror attacks.

CNN's Kelli Arena explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As a stunned courtroom listened to his testimony, Zacarias Moussaoui admitted, for the first time, that he knew about al Qaeda's plot to hijack planes and turn them into weapons aimed at the World Trade Center, saying: "I had knowledge that the two towers would be hit, but I did not have the details."

He says he was supposed to pilot a fifth plane on that fateful day and fly it into the White House. And he named infamous shoe bomber Richard Reid as one of his team members.

PAUL CALLAN, FORMER NEW YORK STATE PROSECUTOR: I think his testimony today was suicide on the witness stand. I mean, here, the prosecutors had a very uphill battle in getting the death penalty, and I think that Zacarias Moussaoui has sealed his own fate by testifying today.

ARENA: Defense attorneys did everything they could to keep him off the stand, but the judge let Moussaoui have his say. Prosecutors say, Moussaoui deserves to die, arguing that, if he hadn't lied to investigators in 2001, they would have uncovered the September 11 conspiracy.

Playing right into their hands, Moussaoui told jurors: "You're allowed to lie for jihad. You're allowed any technique to defeat your enemy."

STEPHEN SALTZBURG, PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: I think it is probably a 50-50 call, as to whether the jury, if they believe him, is going to say, wow, if the -- if he hadn't lied about this, there might very well have been chance to save at least the World Trade Center.

ARENA: Moussaoui's defense team tried to undo some of the damage, getting him to admit he never had any contact with Richard Reid while in the United States. In fact, Reid was not in the United States at the time. What is more, Moussaoui's statements contradict his previous claim that he was supposed to be part of a separate follow-up attack.

That's the version 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed told interrogators as well. The jury heard notes from that interrogation read out loud, in which Mohammed said any plan involving Moussaoui was on the "back-burner."

(on camera): So, was Moussaoui telling the truth then or now? The question matters, as the jury decides whether Moussaoui's lies to investigators caused people to die, making him eligible for the death penalty.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Alexandria, Virginia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, in a moment, the latest on the Christian man in Afghanistan faced with death for converting from Islam.

But, first, Christi Paul from Headline News joins us with a quick look at some top stories -- Christi.

CHRISTI PAUL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson.

Tens of thousands of student walked out of school today in California and other states. It's the second week of demonstrations against proposed laws that will make life much harder for illegal immigrants -- the full Senate expected to begin debating the proposals tomorrow. And President Bush said -- quote -- "Tough choices lie ahead."

A man who allegedly kept a 14-year-old under house arrest for a decade has been released on $10,000 bail and ordered to wear an electronic bracelet. Thomas Hose has been charged with sexual assault and sexual deviancy for allegedly helping Tanya Kach run away from home. She was a student at the school where Hose worked as a security guard.

The mystery of two young boys missing in Milwaukee has deepened. Twelve-year-old Quadrevion Henning and 11-year-old Purvis Parker disappeared last week. Police are now saying it's a criminal investigation, but they won't say why.

And Lyn Nofziger, President Reagan's press secretary and political adviser, has died of cancer. He was 81 years old. In a statement released today, former first lady Nancy Reagan said she was deeply saddened by this news -- Anderson, back to you.

COOPER: Christi, thanks very much.

Well, we have new developments today in the possible death sentence for a Muslim man who converted to Christianity. Afghans say Islam means peace. They say they tolerate religious freedom. So, how come so many Afghans want to see this Christian man dead?

Plus, the minister's wife -- authorities say she confessed to killing him. She also has a message for her dead husband's congregation. But can they forgive her? -- the latest when 360 continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: He was born a Muslim, but converted to Christianity. Now his countrymen want to see him dead -- the latest next on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, 227 Americans have given their lives to try and bring a fledgling democracy to Afghanistan, 227 sons and daughters.

But the question now is, what kind of democracy is it? That's one of the questions raised by the case of Abdul Rahman, an Afghan man who converted to Christianity, and was arrested, facing the death penalty -- new developments tonight and a possible solution that maybe raises more questions than it answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): There's not sympathy for Abdul Rahman on the streets of Afghanistan.

Today, several hundred protesters turned out in one Afghan city, calling for his execution and chanting "Death to Christians."

At prayers in the mosques of Kabul, clerics have also called for his death. Rahman's crime is that he became a Christian 16 years ago while an aide worker helping Afghan refugee in Pakistan. After a family dispute, relatives reported him to police, and he was charged with giving up Islam for another religion.

Under Islamic law, that carries the death penalty, even though Afghanistan's new constitution guarantees freedom of religion. The case has been a major embarrassment for the Afghan government. President Bush said he was deeply troubled by it. And the U.S. and other Western allies called on Afghanistan to drop the charges.

But President Karzai did not want to be seen as buckling to outside pressure, especially with public opinion so hostile to Rahman. Encouraged by onlookers, this student said, the death penalty is a lesson for anyone considering abandoning Islam.

The 41-year-old Rahman even had to be moved to this maximum security jail after detainees in police cells threatened his life. Then, finally, for the government, a way out of the crisis.

Prosecutors announce that, according to his daughter and cousin, Rahman has mental problems. Now the court has dropped the case, and Rahman has asked for asylum overseas.

If he stayed in Afghanistan, it is unlikely he would survive very long.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, the case raises a lot of questions.

Joining us now is Reza Aslan. He's the author of "No God But God" and a visiting professor at the University of Southern California's Center on Public Policy.

Reza, thanks for being back on the program. What does -- what does this case say to you about Islam and tolerance?

REZA ASLAN, AUTHOR, "NO GOD BUT GOD: THE ORIGINS, EVOLUTION, AND FUTURE OF ISLAM": Well, I mean, it says to me, especially with regard to Afghanistan, that democracy is a long process.

And I think it's actually cases like this that are going to really help define what that means for Afghanis. I mean, it's not going to be elections or constitutions that are going to define democracy. It's going to be those legal situations in which Afghanis are trying to reconcile Islamic -- traditional Islamic, conservative values with the requirements of a modern democratic state.

COOPER: But, I mean, how -- how does one reconcile, you know, this -- this religion, where -- that -- that technically means peace -- Islam, the word means peace -- and everyone will always tell you that Islam is a religion of peace. And, yet, you have Afghan clerics saying that Rahman should be pulled into pieces and have head cut off?

ASLAN: There's absolutely no reconciliation between that at all.

It's important, first of all, to understand that the Koran says nothing about apostasy at all. There is no punishment in apostasy. This idea of death as a punishment for apostasy actually arose at a time in which Islam and the state were one. So, apostasy and treason were considered the same thing. And, therefore, the punishment of death was for all of it.

Not all Islamic law -- schools of Islamic law actually agree upon this, just the very conservative ones. And there are few more conservative schools of law than in Afghanistan.

COOPER: And -- and the fact that, I mean, it seems like, you know, sort of a backroom deal was made on this, and they have decided to just declare the guy, oh, he -- well, he's crazy, and, therefore, can't stand trial, that's not really a solution.

ASLAN: No, it's not.

In fact, it's actually a very common thing that happens in, not just Afghanistan, but in Pakistan, in Egypt, in a lot of Muslim states where they're trying to do this kind of reconciliation that I was talking about with -- with Islamic traditions and the requirements of -- of a democratic state.

This idea of not guilty by reason of insanity, which is a very easy thing to -- to claim in -- in Islamic law, is always used to sort of buck the responsibility for making these decisions. And I think that is a problem, because this is, for me, it's -- it's -- it's very much like our -- our Plessy vs. Ferguson, or our Dred Scott case.

It's an opportunity for the Afghan courts to say, what does this constitution mean? What does it mean when we say that all Afghans have freedom of religion, and, at the same time, that Islam is the moral framework of -- of this country? Those -- those issues have to be ironed out. And this is how they're going to get ironed out. This, I think, is not a very good way of -- of -- of dealing with this problem. COOPER: But are they getting -- I mean, are they getting ironed out in Afghanistan?

I mean, the intellectuals here can talk about it. And -- and Muslim scholars here can condemn it. You know, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said over the weekend, we -- we have to be respectful of Afghan sovereignty, respectful of the fact that this is a country that is coming out of 25 years of civil war, a country that's going to have to find its own way. Is that conversation in Afghanistan being had?

ASLAN: Actually, it is being had.

You know, this is a -- this is an issue that has been on the cover of every single Afghan newspaper. Every Afghan politician has been talking about this. It's -- it's the topic of conversation in the markets, in the families.

And while it is true that it seems as though, you know, a great many Afghanis really do believe that the punishment of death should apply in this case, which is a -- a draconian and archaic version of -- of -- of Islamic law, at least that discussion is being had.

You know, three years ago, Anderson, a case like this would have been handled in secret. Abdul Rahman would have been taken into the alley and shot before anyone would have even had a chance to -- to hear about it.

And, in a very perverse way, that's the kind of process that we're hoping is going to take part in Afghanistan. But, again, it needs to be a process that is faithful to the rights and privileges that are guaranteed in the Afghan constitution. And that's what's not what's happening right now at all.

COOPER: It -- it certainly doesn't look that way.

Reza, it's always good to have you on the program. Appreciate it, Reza Aslan. Thank you.

ASLAN: Good to see you.

COOPER: The reported confession of a preacher's wife in the murder that shocked a small town -- the alleged killer, he was -- was arraigned today -- she was, I should say -- as people who knew the couple talk about the two sides of the murdered minister.

Also ahead tonight, love and poison -- a woman stands accused of trying to win the heart of a man by poisoning the guy's wife. A bizarre story -- coming up on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, Mary Winkler was known as the perfect wife and the perfect mother. But tonight she stands accused of cold-blooded premeditated murder. Police say she confessed to killing her husband, a respected and popular preacher in Tennessee. Today she was arraigned for the crime.

CNN's Rusty Dornin has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): She planned it and then she shot her husband in the back. At least that's what police say Mary Winkler told them. Eyes downcast as she shuffled into the courtroom, Mary Winkler looked up only to speak to the judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any questions?

MARY WINKLER, ACCUSED OF KILLING HUSBAND: No, sir.

DORNIN: No plea and no answers as to why a woman known to be the loving wife of the local minister would do something so out of character. Pam Killingsworth doesn't have any answers. A teacher at the same school where Winkler is a substitute, she went to jail to see her.

PAM KILLINGSWORTH, FAMILY FRIEND: She waved at the window and she smiled at me and I smiled at her.

DORNIN: Visiting with her fellow church member through the bulletproof glass, she says Winkler begged her to write a note to the congregation and the community.

KILLINGSWORTH: "Tell them that I'm so sorry for everything that I've done," and to "Tell them to pray for me, and I am asking for forgiveness for everything that I've done."

DORNIN: Several of her fellow church members were in court to let Mary Winkler know they care.

Her attorneys say Winkler will plead not guilty. But what about the confession?

LESLIE BALLIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Whether or not when a person tells their side of what happened, it amounts to a confession, that is an admission of guilt, that's something else.

DORNIN (on camera): Your you're questioning that? You're questioning that?

BALLIN: I'm questioning whether or not it's a confession. It may be a statement of what happened, but I don't know what is contained in that statement.

DORNIN (voice over): Her attorneys say we may learn that the public face of the Winkler family was very different from the private one. But just what did go on behind closed doors at the Winkler home?

(on camera): Police have pretty much ruled out infidelity, but they won't comment on domestic abuse. Did you ever see any signs in school with those children of domestic abuse? KILLINGSWORTH: I never saw any signs of domestic abuse. Mary never -- she never said anything. And as much as I was with the children, nothing was ever said. There were no actions.

Usually there will be telltale signs. A child will act a certain way. Their body language -- there was never any of that with either one of those children.

DORNIN (voice over): While most who knew the Winklers describe them in glowing terms, one neighbor says she saw a different side of Matthew Winkler.

SHARYN EVERITT, NEIGHBOR: It was totally not what I expected from a preacher.

DORNIN: Sharyn Everitt says Winkler was angry about her dog's running loose in the yard and frightened her children.

EVERITT: And then he said, "If that dog comes over to my yard I'll shoot it."

DORNIN: He says he repeated the warning to her husband six months later. An isolated incident, perhaps, but Everett wonders.

EVERITT: He wasn't perfect. He absolutely -- I mean, if we're going to elevate him to sainthood, let's wait until after the court and let's see what really did happen.

DORNIN: At the preliminary hearing on Thursday police will likely use Mary Winkler's own words to say what happened. Her husband's funeral will be held at the same church where he preached for the last year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Is it known what kind of defense the -- her attorney is going to put on?

DORNIN: Well, Anderson, remember her defense team has not even read her confession yet. Nor have the police shared what they believe to be the motive. So they're talking about a lot of different things here.

They're exploring the possibility of psychological examinations, was there postpartum depression? Those are some of the avenues they're looking at. But they say at this point they're still formulating what they're going to do.

COOPER: It is such a -- where are the kids now?

DORNIN: The kids are with Matthew Winkler's parents. They did take custody right after Mary Winkler was arrested.

COOPER: All right. Rusty Dornin, thanks.

We're going to talk to Ms. Winkler's attorney in the next hour on 360.

A lot of questions and a lot of grief in Tennessee. In many ways, the story unfolding in Selmer is sadly familiar. The grim truth is we aren't always safe from those we love.

Here's CNN's Randi Kaye.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The pictures rarely hint at the violence that's to come. And when it strikes, disbelief.

SHARON ROCHA, LACI PETERSON'S MOTHER: We feel Scott has nothing to do with it, with the disappearance of Laci.

KAYE: A young man kills his pregnant wife. A woman murders her ex-husband and his new wife. A husband confesses to dumping his beloved's body in the trash.

It happens too often. According to the Justice Department, nearly one in 10 of all murders in 2004 were committed by spouses or lovers. More than 1,300 people. Perhaps more than any other kind of violence this kind is hardest to accept.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: There is this notion with marriage that you have found your partner for life. This is the person that you should feel most safe with. So to think that somehow you could marry your killer is a quite bizarre thought.

KAYE: Women are more often the victims. One-third of women who are murdered die at the hands of their husbands or boyfriends. Fewer than 3 percent of men who are murdered are killed by their wives or girlfriends.

The case of Mary Winkler, the preacher's wife now charged with murder, has stunned the family's community, and that sense of shock is familiar to those who study such crimes.

B. J. BERNSTEIN, FMR. PROSECUTOR: What is common is to find that it's shocking to everyone in the outside world that anything is going on wrong at home, particularly in a situation like this, where she's married to a minister.

LUDWIG: We hear that a lot, that there's this presentation of the perfect couple, the perfect family, and it just strikes a chord that no one or nothing is as perfect as they seem.

JOE FLAHERTY, RACHEL ENTWISTLE'S FAMILY SPOKESMAN: Neil was a trusted husband and father, and it is incomprehensible how that love and trust betrayed -- was betrayed in the ultimate act of violence.

KAYE: Today, Neil Entwistle is facing trial for the murders of his wife and infant daughter. He's pleaded not guilty. Those who knew the family said they seemed happy.

Behind all these smiling faces, clearly there was more going on than met the eye. Or perhaps those who knew them just didn't allow themselves to see what else was there.

LUDWIG: I think that there are always warning signs, but they're easier to see in hindsight. It very rarely happens just like that. I just don't buy it.

KAYE: Somewhere between the vows that are taken and the crime scene tape, something goes wrong. The motives are many: revenge, control, self-defense, money.

LUDWIG: The fact of the matter is, we treat people who we love almost worse than anybody else. It's a little bit scary because it's hard to predict who could go this route.

KAYE: Sometimes it turns out to be those who seem the happiest.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, coming up, another case with a strange motive of what apparently was twisted love. Did this woman have her heart set on her next-door neighbor's husband and did she slowly try and poison his wife?

Plus, exorcism. Christians believe that Satan is among us, his evil spreading. Now more people are fighting back. We'll look at the story behind a growing demand for a popular ritual when 360 continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, for scheming lovers and jealous suitors, death by poison is a killing choice that's as old as history. It may seem less traumatic than, say, being shot to death, but it is still a cruel and potentially very painful way to go. Often, the poison is not discovered until it is too late, which is why a Missouri woman has much to be thankful for.

Here's CNN's Keith Oppenheim.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the small town of Bonterre, Missouri, Brian and Angie Hausler were newcomers. Last summer they became friends with Tina Vazquez, a neighbor who came over regularly to baby-sit.

BRIAN HAUSLER, HUSBAND OF POISONING VICTIM: She was actually over there all the time visiting Angie. But the more Angie got sick the more she would help out.

OPPENHEIM: Over the course of several months, Brian says his wife got flu-like symptoms. Then, on March 18th...

OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency?

ANGIE HAUSLER, POISONED BY NEIGHBOR: I can't breathe. OPPENHEIM: Angie called 911. She couldn't breathe. Her skin was discolored.

B. HAUSLER: We weren't suspicious at all until the doctors actually told Angie she had been poisoned or came in contact with some kind of poison, and it had to be within 30 minutes of the time she collapsed.

OPPENHEIM: Angie said Tina had given her an antibiotic for the flu symptoms. Brian started asking questions.

B. HAUSLER: I said, "What's going on, Tina? What do you got to tell me? What's going on?"

And she said, "Well, I did something bad." And I said, "Well, what did you do?" And she said, "I put something bad in Angie's medicine."

OPPENHEIM: Police say that something was sodium nitrite, a substance for curing meat Tina got from her job in a meat-packing business. Investigators say Tina put a toxic dose in the capsule.

B. HAUSLER: And I asked her why and she just said she thought she could make me happier.

OPPENHEIM: Brian immediately called police.

B. HAUSLER: My god! I mean, that's like attempted murder. She just admitted it to me.

OPPENHEIM: Police say Tina confessed, telling detectives she was trying to put Angie in the hospital to get time alone with Brian Hausler.

DET. JEFF BLACK, N.J. ST. FRANCIS COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPT.: In Tina's statement, she indicates that there was some intimacy there. And whether there was or not, we don't know. Brian has adamantly denied any kind of involvement with her.

B. HAUSLER: There was no affair. I did not lead her on.

OPPENHEIM: Brian Hausler says he now thinks Tina may have been poisoning his wife for months. He says his wife is at home recovering, but the poisoning has been damaging to his entire family.

B. HAUSLER: My 3-year-old actually said, "Mommy, you don't have to worry. Tina ain't going to make you sick no more. She's in jail for a long time."

OPPENHEIM: Tina Vazquez has been charged with first-degree assault, and if convicted could face life in prison.

Keith Oppenheim, CNN, Bonterre, Missouri.

(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Well, he's a preacher who believes that up to half of the people in this country are possessed by demons, and he's trying to do something about it through exorcisms, and a lot of people are paying attention.

And would you buy a puppy on a street corner? Well, we'll give you a few reasons why not to.

That story ahead on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, if you say "exorcism," most people think of an ancient ritual involving a priest and maybe Linda Blair. Certainly that's the version you're likely to have seen in the movies. But the phenomenon is closer to home for a growing number of people, and it is taking on a whole different look.

CNN's Tom Foreman investigates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): From the moment he arrived on the brown outskirts of Tulsa, Bob Larson was getting the devil out. What might be called his personal theme song pounds through the room as he starts tonight's session at a local hotel. And it is appropriate. Bob Larson is an exorcist.

REV. BOB LARSON, EXORCIST: The power of Jesus Christ is available now. Not 2,000 years ago. Now, to destroy the works of darkness.

Christ dealt with demons. I mean, the bible was full of it. It's right here in the book. We can't escape it.

So I'm -- you know, I'm doing what's normal. If the rest of the people think I'm abnormal, I think they're the ones who are out of step with scripture.

FOREMAN: As it is, many people are falling in step with Larson, mesmerized by his public confrontations with people who say they are possessed by devils.

LARSON: And I defy you in the name of the living.

(SINGING): My deliverer is coming. My deliverer is standing by.

FOREMAN: Larson is not alone. The Catholic Church is training more exorcists. And one religion scholar says more than 600 deliverance ministries have popped up in Protestant churches around the country. The common belief driving them all: demons really do move among us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe there's demonic influence in the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He moves in the supernatural, and I want to be around it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really, I expect to see some pretty wild stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe that there were demons.

FOREMAN: On this night, Sherry Kritenton (ph) gives a typical example of how these demons show themselves. One minute, just sitting in the crowd...

LARSON: Get out of the way. Get in the backseat and let the devil drive.

FOREMAN: ... the next, howling, writhing, and in a strange voice screaming at Larson.

LARSON: Who are you? Who are you? Is this a setup, or a show? Larson insists it is neither.

He says some people try to fool him. Some people have obvious mental conditions. But there is no mistaking a person possessed.

LARSON: There's something I refer to as "that look." It's the look of a demon. And once you see it, believe me, you never forget it. You're looking into the heart of hell and hell is staring back at you.

FOREMAN: Broad interest in all of this goes back to 1973, when "The Exorcist" scared the devil out of millions of movie fans. Larson's interest dates to about that time.

A Nebraska farm boy, he was a rock musician, became an inspirational speaker, then a Christian broadcaster. And along the way he says he started running into possessed souls.

LARSON: No, it was the real deal. I knew it was the real deal.

FOREMAN: So now he spends almost all his time preaching the gospel of deliverance. Christian TV...

LARSON: If you think you're tormented by the devil, who are you going to call, where are you going to go and what are you going to do?

FOREMAN: ... through videos and through exorcisms. As he pulls demons from his audience, he also pulls dollars through offerings, sales of books, disks. He says he doesn't profit, but he is using the money to train deliverance ministry teams all over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I divide soul and spirit.

FOREMAN: He believes no one should be more than a day's drive from an exorcist, especially these days.

LARSON: Crime, violence, drugs, the horrendous rise in sexual abuse in our country, all of this is an environment of human suffering that demons can feed on.

FOREMAN (on camera): Do you believe that most people have demons in them?

LARSON: I would say it's close to half the population.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sacrifice your children!

LARSON: Come out and be with Jesus. Come out! Come out!

FOREMAN (voice over): After a long confrontation, Sherry's (ph) demon appeared to be driven out. Sherry (ph) wept, the crowd applauded, and the exorcist called it a night.

LARSON: I could go another four or five hours. I feel great. I feel fine.

FOREMAN (on camera): How is that possible? This just looks physically and mentally exhausting.

LARSON: It is. It is. But it's what god has called me to do. I mean, I'm so excited. I mean, Sherry (ph) is a different person.

FOREMAN (voice over): She says so, even though she also says she's been possessed four times and exorcised twice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God's brought me a long way in a short amount of time, and I think it's a continuing process.

FOREMAN: That's good enough for Larson.

(on camera): Do you believe that lives that are changed this way are truly permanently changed?

LARSON: Some yes and some no. No pun intended, some get repossessed. I mean, I'm serious, they do.

FOREMAN: After all, he says this is an eternal struggle between heaven and hell and the desperate souls caught somewhere in between.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Tulsa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Wow, possessed four times. Where she's hanging out?

Illegal immigration, is it a burden or blessing for the U.S.? We'll cover all the angles of that ahead.

But first, Christi Paul from HEADLINE NEWS joins us with some of the other business stories we're following tonight.

(BUSINESS REPORT)

COOPER: We want to thank our international viewers for watching as well. Coming up tonight, though, immigration pro and con as told by the people fight for jobs being taken by illegal immigrants. And by a legal immigrant paying taxes and fighting for a better life.

All the angles.

Also, a different kind of smuggling, smuggling puppies, if you can imagine it, into this country and the heartache it is causing for families who take them.

Later, police say she confessed to killing her husband, but why is the question. We'll hear from her attorney ahead on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Good evening again. We are a nation of immigrants and a nation divided.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Border showdown. From the streets of L.A....

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are America.

ANNOUNCER: ... to the Senate floor, the battle for the immigration reform bill and the debate that's dividing the nation.

Inside Hamas. America calls them terrorists, but Palestinians see their elected leaders as a lifeline building hospitals, running kindergartens. Tonight, Christiane Amanpour reports on the two sides of Hamas.

And confession of a preacher's wife. She says she shot her husband in the back. Today the accused killer headed to court. As speculation mounts over a possible motive, what's her defense? We'll talk to her attorney.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: From across the U.S. and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.

Live from the CNN studios in New York, here's Anderson Cooper.

COOPER: All those stories ahead tonight, but we begin with some remarkable video that is just in to CNN. Take a look at this.

This is the view from on board the cruise ship Star Princess early Thursday morning as flames made their way across the upper decks. Now, the liner was on route from Grand Cayman to Montego Bay, Jamaica, when the fire broke out.

Nearly 2,700 passengers and more than a thousand crew -- crew members were on board. One passenger died of a heart attack, 11 others were treated for inhaling smoke.

That video just in to CNN.

Now the debate that is expected to open tomorrow on the Senate floor. But it is already happening, the debate across the country, over the first major attempt at immigration reform since 1986.

Back then, the country had about two million illegal immigrants. Tonight, with the number hovering at, get this, nearly 12 million, the Senate Judiciary Committee approved a compromised bill. It would make being here a felony but would not do the same for social service workers who don't turn illegals in. And it provides for a limited amnesty, something hard-line Republicans bitterly oppose.

All the angles tonight on this divisive issue. In a moment we'll hear from people who believe illegal immigration is wrong and feel the men and women who cross the border should be arrested and charged with a felony or deported.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

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