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Breaking News in Natalee Holloway Case

Aired April 17, 2006 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. The American missing girl, 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, the Alabama beauty who disappeared on her high school senior trip -- tonight, a new arrest, a 19-year-old young man under questioning as we speak.
And tonight, we are live in Durham, North Carolina -- sealed indictments handed down in the Duke lacrosse rape investigation. Who? What? Where? Why? And when?

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Tonight, breaking news, Durham, North Carolina. A grand jury hands down sealed indictments reportedly of the Duke lacrosse players in the multiple rape of a student-turned-stripper. Is an eyewitness listed? Who is named? What is the offense?

But first, breaking news tonight in the Natalee Holloway case out of Aruba, a new target under arrest and being questioned as we speak. Is there finally justice for 18-year-old Natalee Holloway? Tonight, we are taking your calls.


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: We want justice, and we have to recognize the fact that, you know, this crime has been committed on the island of Aruba and we know the perpetrators.

JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, CHIEF SUSPECT: I knew her for one night. I should have just stayed home and this wouldn`t have happened to me, it would have happened to another person.

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S FATHER: (INAUDIBLE) that one of her friend`s alibis does not -- just not match up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) things lead me to believe that he knows more than -- than (INAUDIBLE)

TWITTY: We just have to, though, keep going. The only way we will get justice for Natalee is if we do keep going.

VAN DER SLOOT: I just hope that -- that (INAUDIBLE) that the truth comes out.


GRACE: Straight out to investigative reporter Pat Lalama. Pat, explain to me the significance of this arrest.

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, there`s so much that seems significant about it. Let`s start with the most important point, and that is that this 19-year-old person, whose name is Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt -- we are permitted to name him, but let`s just keep in mind he has not been charged with anything. However, I`m going to run down the important points for you, Nancy, and of course, you`ll take it away in the way you always do.

Number one, he acts or acted as a security guard. And by "acted," meaning he did have a job as a security guard on the beach, supposed to be keeping the beach safe for all. Number two, interestingly, there`s conflicting stories about whether he knew Joran Van Der Sloot and his other friends. Some say he did, some say he did not.

Thirdly, his sister is a police officer in the same very place where the investigation into Natalee`s disappearance is taking place. Number four, his father owns a private -- let`s call it a private investigative agency, and actually has contracted and done work for the police department. Whether that`s here nor there, we don`t know, at this point.

But five, and to me quite significant, is the issue of potential blood evidence. A year ago, Nancy, you were actually talking to a CNN reporter who said that while there was a search on the beach, they came up with a T- shirt or a shirt of some sort that seemed to have blood on it, and it belonged to the security company that this young man`s father owns. At the time, it didn`t really mean much.

Now, with this young man, Geoffrey, there is allegedly a connection, a link to some forensic evidence on a shirt, whether it`s the same shirt, whether it`s two different shirts, we don`t know.

So everything, at this point, up in the air, but...


LALAMA: ... boy, is it intriguing.

GRACE: Here is what Natalee`s father had to say.


HOLLOWAY: This is the first arrest since probably early or late June, and it`s -- it`s a very, very new name that has not even been on the radar screen. So maybe it`s -- maybe it`s a break in the case. Maybe it`s that card that will bring the whole deck down.

We had a change of command in the police department a week or so ago, and you know, we`re not calling all the police, you know, bad. All it takes is one or two people turning their heads to derail an investigation. Maybe -- maybe we`re on the right track now.


GRACE: As you see, the father, Mr. Holloway, expressing renewed hope this morning on the "Today" show at NBC.

I`m hearing in my ear from Elizabeth we now have Jossy Mansur. As you know, he is the managing director and editor at "Diario" magazine. Welcome, Jossy. Jossy, who is this new guy?



MANSUR: Well, he`s been described all over the place. He`s a 19- year-old boy. He was (INAUDIBLE) with the father with the (INAUDIBLE) the hotel. He is also -- he hangs out a lot on the beach, what we call a "beach bum" here. And he used to work with the firm of Gerold Dompig, at the (INAUDIBLE) team which is a special unit brought into life to offer (INAUDIBLE) security and safety for the hotels and the tourists. That`s what we know about him. We don`t know more.

GRACE: You know, that`s quite a lot of connections in a tangential way to the Natalee Holloway case. Let me get this straight, Jossy. Everyone, again, Jossy Mansur, the managing director and editor of "Diario" magazine. Jossy, this guy, Geoffrey Van -- how do you say his last name?

MANSUR: Van Cromvoirt.

GRACE: Cromvoirt. His dad owns the security company that did security for the Holiday Inn, where Natalee was staying. His sister, I understand, is on the police force at the precinct, as we would call it, that was investigative the Natalee Holloway case. Are both of those correct?

MANSUR: That`s correct. His sister was sworn in as police officer in August of last year.

GRACE: All right. Now, what is his connection, this new guy that has now been arrested -- we know that the Dutch can hold him for about eight days. He`s being questioned as we speak. He`s got a court appearance tomorrow. What is his connection with a T-shirt that was found on the south end of the island that we are told has forensic evidence on it?

MANSUR: Well, I don`t know. I don`t know anything about it. What I do know is that about 10 months ago, a T-shirt or a uniform of the company of his father, the security company, was found half-buried under the sand on the beach and that his father was interrogated at that time, but nothing came out of it.

GRACE: The T-shirt itself was found half-buried, is that what you said?

MANSUR: Yes. Yes.

GRACE: OK, Jossy, where was the T-Shirt found In connection to where Van Der Sloot says he left Natalee?

MANSUR: No, this T-shirt was found way...


MANSUR: ... on the other side of the island.

GRACE: I just wanted to make sure. Elizabeth, when you can, if you could show me the map of the island?

All right, back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario" magazine. Why are the authorities holding this young man, if he is not a suspect, Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt?

MANSUR: You know, that`s very strange for us, too, because we were under the impression from the beginning, we were told by our contacts within the police department, that he is a suspect. Now, suddenly, they don`t want us to call him a suspect anymore, but a detainee. I don`t know what the difference is because if they hold you, it`s because they suspect you of being involved in some kind of violation of law.

GRACE: That could be...


MANSUR: ... you are suspected of something.

GRACE: Yes, that could be anything from knowing material pertinent to the case to knowing something about the disposal of her body. That does not mean in any way this guy is connected to the actual death of Natalee Holloway. He has not been named an official suspect. We are talking about 19-year-old Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt. He is behind bars as we speak, being questioned right now in the Natalee Holloway disappearance. There`s a picture of him.

Jossy, this is very important in my mind. While Joran Van Der Sloot`s lawyer has repeatedly stated his client does not know Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt, what`s the word on the island? Do they know each other?

MANSUR: Well, we have know of way of knowing yet. I mean, it`s too early to determine that. We have to look at the school records, if this guy went to the same school as he did, if they`ve been seen together and if there`s any photo of them together. At this point, we cannot say whether they know each other or not.

GRACE: OK. With me right now, Jossy Mansur with "Diario" magazine. To Pat Lalama, investigative reporter. We do believe that this new arrestee knows Steve Croes. Remember him?

LALAMA: Absolutely.

GRACE: Go back in the time machine.


GRACE: Right, the deejay on the party boat.

LALAMA: Right.

GRACE: He was taken into custody and questioned, released, another catch-and-release. So we know those two know each other. So weave it together for me, Pat Lalama.

LALAMA: Well, all right. First of all, it is my understanding that authorities do say that Joran and his buddies ran in the same circles, were part of the same little club, so to speak, or group of people, as this newest person that we have our eyes focused on now. Now, as you said, remember the party boat deejay, Steve Croes, was held, was being looked at very, very diligently, but once again let go. But they do know each other.

So it`s -- Nancy, `sit like "Six Degrees of Separation" that gets this close but still not quite enough to put it all together.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have sex with her that night?

VAN DER SLOOT: That`s -- first of all, that`s none of your business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just a question.

VAN DER SLOOT: Yes, well, it`s absolutely none of your business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what -- I mean, did anything else happen that night?



VAN DER SLOOT: Well, yes, I -- I kissed with her, but neither me, Deepak or Satish ever had sex with her, and no one ever -- ever said otherwise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you leave a girl on the beach?

VAN DER SLOOT: I told her I had to go home, I had school the next day, and I thought maybe she`d understand. She told me, no, she wanted notice stay with her because the next day, she was leaving and she wanted to stay there the whole night. I told her no, I had to go. I even lifted her up to carry her back to her hotel, and she told me put her down. I left her there. I sat down next to her, talked to her a while. If I had that moment back, I would have made sure he got back to her hotel safely, but I can`t change that now.


GRACE: Back to Jossy Mansur with "Diario" magazine. Jossy, this young man now being questioned in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt, he worked for the beach patrol. We know that much. He`s 19 years old. Was he patrolling at any time the beach where Natalee was last seen?

MANSUR: You know, we have no knowledge of that. It`s very hard to say that because we would have to go back into the records, check with the hotel and do a lot of other things. He used to work for the (INAUDIBLE) team. He no longer works for them.

GRACE: Joining me right now...


MANSUR: ... father out (ph) with a camera.

GRACE: Joining me now is Natalee Holloway`s father, Dave Holloway. Dave, thank you for being with us.

HOLLOWAY: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: What is your reaction to the arrest?

HOLLOWAY: Well, it looks like a positive move. You know, we hadn`t had anything, you know, come about in a number of months. So maybe this is a stepping stone for other things to come.

GRACE: Dave, what, if anything, do you know about Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt?

HOLLOWAY: You know, I didn`t know anything about him until I heard his initials on some report late Saturday evening. I never heard of him before in any of the investigators.

GRACE: Dave, have you seen the police files?

HOLLOWAY: Have I seen the police files?


GRACE: I`ve seen some bits and pieces of some of the statements made, but not the complete file, no.

GRACE: Did you see anything about the beach patrol or this T-shirt with forensic evidence on it, anything that you could connect back to what`s happening right now?

HOLLOWAY: No. I think Carl Penhaul reported on the shirt back -- you know, back in the first few days or maybe first few weeks of this investigation, that a shirt was found, and also a pair of sunglasses. And what they did with it, we don`t know.

GRACE: With us is Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway. Dave, you have been very convinced throughout that Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers are responsible for Natalee`s disappearance. Do you still feel that way?

HOLLOWAY: I still feel like they know a lot more than what they`re telling us. Whether they`re directly involved in it, I`d have to stay on that same road with the police. So...


GRACE: What do you mean? What same road?

HOLLOWAY: ... have to see more evidence -- well, the same road that these -- Deepak and Satish and Joran are the primary suspects. There`s just too much information that leads that way towards them.

GRACE: What do you think is the single strongest evidence, in your mind, as the case has developed, that they are responsible?

HOLLOWAY: Well, you know, you have all the lies. You have a police statement that Deepak buried her in the sand. You know, whether that`s true or not, you know, we`ll just have to wait and see. And then you also have the fact that they lied about being out in the field where the gardener caught them in the middle of the night. You know, just all the different lies.

Why would you lie if you weren`t trying to lie something. You know, why did they come up with the Holiday Inn story to begin with? You know, and then the lies continued. They got Steve Croes to be an alibi. They attempted to get another little girl to be an alibi to show that they weren`t in the field that night, when the gardener identified them. And you know, the list goes on and on.

GRACE: I`m just confused about where this guy is coming from, Dave. We`ve never heard his name before. I`m wondering -- we know that there was a reenactment on the Dutch TV show kind of like "America`s Most Wanted." The translation is "Arrest Requested" -- "Opsporing Verzocht." It`s like our "America`s Most Wanted." We had that reenactment. It opened up to tips, and now this arrest. Do you think there`s a connection?

HOLLOWAY: Well, there possibly is. You know, they had -- I understand, had approximately 60 tips. Obviously, some of those would be identical, so you could probably bring the number down a little bit. But I know the prosecutor is excited about all of the tips, and you know, she`s working very well with our attorney.

GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing a reenactment performed by a Dutch TV station DVN (ph) of what may have happened the night Natalee went missing. With us tonight from Aruba, Jossy Mansur, the editor and director of "Diario" magazine. Also with us, Natalee`s father, Dave Holloway.

We`ll be all right back, but let`s quickly go to tonight`s "Case Alert." Formal charges today in an Oklahoma case for the man accused of killing a 10-year-old girl, Jamie Rose Bolin. The name, Kevin Ray Underwood, 26, allegedly confesses to beating and smothering his young neighbor. Authorities allege Underwood planned to cannibalize the child.


GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. A development in the Natalee Holloway case, an arrest. Right now, we believe this young man -- he is not a suspect tonight -- a 19-year-old member of the local beach patrol, is under questioning.

Back to Dave Holloway. Dave, did police contact you? Did authorities contact you and your family and tell you of the arrest, or did you just find out over the weekend watching TV?

HOLLOWAY: Well, we heard about it late Saturday evening. You know, when news happens in Aruba, we have a number of sources. Our attorney also called us while we were on the phone, so we heard it. I mean, we had a number of calls Saturday evening. In fact, we figured out the name within, you know, 30, 45 minutes.

GRACE: Let`s go straight to the lines. On the phone, Laurie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Laurie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. If Geoffrey is convicted, can Joran press charges against him?

GRACE: I don`t see how. And again, right now, he`s not a suspect. Laurie, remember, when they take him -- for instance Steve Croes, the party boat deejay -- various people that they think are witnesses, their system, Laurie, is so different than ours, it would be a cold day in Hades before someone could be taken under arrest here in the United States and it not be made public why they were arrested. We do not have secret proceedings in this country.

But joining me right now is international law expert Rahul Manchanda. Rahul, how is it the Dutch can take basically witnesses and keep them detained to question them?

RAHUL MANCHANDA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, INTERNATIONAL LAW EXPERT: Well, it`s a good question. It`s a fundamental difference between the Dutch system and the American system. You know, in America, you know, once you`re arrested, there has to be probable cause, and you know, probable cause is defined as, you know, facts and circumstances based on, you know, trustworthy information that would warrant a prudent person to believe that a crime was committed and the person to be arrested who committed it.

Over there, however, in Aruba, you`re talking about the Dutch system, which just talks about reasonable suspicion. And over there, you can incarcerate somebody and keep them in jail without even charging them, you know, for a certain period of time, initially to two days. You can extend that for another eight days, and then another series, two of eight, bring it to 46, you know, and then you can extend it for another four months without charging people, you know, with a crime, for a total of 146 days.

GRACE: Clark, this is not the first time we`ve seen the catch-and- release theory in effect in Aruba.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: Well, it`s certainly not the first time. We have a scorecard here of all the various people taken into custody, held, and then they`re released. Let`s start with Antonius John. You may not remember the name, but Nancy, he was one of the first two security guards.

GRACE: Security guards.

GOLDBAND: You`re exactly right. We one more security guard here. His name, Abraham Jones. They were held for the first six days in this investigation and subsequently let go. Joran Van Der Sloot needs no introduction -- held in June and released. Deepak Kalpoe -- he was in and out twice, along with his partner, Satish, who`s also his brother. They were released and held twice, as well. Steve Croes -- we remember him. He was the party boat deejay...


GOLDBAND: Exactly right -- held for 10 days and let go. Next is Paulus Van Der Sloot. He is Joran`s father, the judge, held for three days and released. And now we have our next person, Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt. I`m sorry if my Dutch is not exactly correct. He was arrested on Saturday...

GRACE: So we`ll see if he is another catch-and-release.

GOLDBAND: We`re still waiting on the verdict.

GRACE: Exactly.

Very quickly, let`s go to tonight`s "Case Alert." Police confirm the two small bodies founds in a Milwaukee lagoon are those of Dre Henning and Purvis Parker. Autopsies show the 12-year-old and 12-year-old both drowned, no evidence of foul play. The boys last seen March 19, headed to a local park to play ball. We tried, but we could not find them fast enough.



HOLLOWAY: I just can`t understand that three kids, you know, if they were involved in foul play, could have disposed of Natalee in such a way that we couldn`t find her. So that leads me to believe that possibly there`s other people involved in the case. And until you prove or until somebody proves me otherwise, I`ve just got that feeling.


GRACE: Tonight, an arrest not necessarily of a suspect, but an arrest and the ongoing questioning of yet another young man in the Natalee Holloway disappearance. His name, Geoffrey Van Cromvoirt. He is 19 years old. He is a member of the Aruban beach patrol. We don`t know where he was the night Natalee went missing. We don`t know his connection to any of the other players in this case. We only know that he is under questioning now, and Dutch authorities refuse to name him as a suspect.

Back out to Pat Lalama. Pat, let`s talk about what we do know about this young man, as opposed to what everyone`s saying they don`t know. What exactly do you do as a member of the beach patrol?

LALAMA: Well, his job -- I mean, I -- when you think about it, it`s just another one of those crazy ironies in this case. His job was to make sure that the tourists felt safe. You know, you walk up and down the beach, I mean, just like a security guard, for lack of a better term. But ironically, the way the job description has been in the press is that to make the tourists feel safe. I mean, it`s just the sickest irony to me. Now, you know, the other thing...

GRACE: Did that include working at night?

LALAMA: Well, I would think, particularly...

GRACE: Was he spotted on the video? Do we know if he was spotted on the casino video?

LALAMA: Well, that we don`t know, at this point. We don`t know. But you know what? Why not at night? A lot of those college kids are out there. That would be the time that I`d be most concerned for my kid.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two sealed indictments were, in fact, submitted today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... on behalf of the grand jury, through their foreperson, the court notes that all 18 grand jury members were present today and acted on the bills that were presented to them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to pray for the victims. We want to pray for the accused. We want to pray for their families. We want to pray for this neighborhood.


GRACE: Just a few hours ago, two sealed indictments came down, reportedly against members of the Duke University lacrosse team in connection with the multiple rape of a student-turned-stripper who was performing in an off-campus party for lacrosse members.

Straight out to WPTF Radio reporter Kevin Miller. Kevin, bring us up to date.

KEVIN MILLER, WPTF RADIO: Nancy, as you just said, two sealed indictments were passed out today at the Durham courtroom, which is where we are. The attorneys for the players were notified, and we shall see what happens tomorrow. We are expecting to learn the names of those players sometime probably tomorrow.

GRACE: What attorneys were notified?

MILLER: The attorneys who, in fact, the players -- who represent the certain players.

GRACE: OK, question: Are they the attorneys that represent individual players or are they the attorneys that represent, like, 33 of the players?

MILLER: All the attorneys, to my knowledge, were, in fact, notified of who was and who wasn`t...


MILLER: ... in the sealed...

GRACE: So there`s no way we can determine, by the notification, who was indicted?

MILLER: Right.

GRACE: Kevin, does it seem to have calmed anything down there in Raleigh-Durham?

MILLER: I think that it has, although once the people, the accused, are known, it will start back up again. We did have an eventful weekend where Jesse Jackson said that he would give a scholarship to the victim/accuser. You did have another protest at the house where allegedly the crime occurred, 610 North Buchanan Boulevard, where you had over 100 people on Easter Sunday demanding justice.

We did have a lot of attention here today. And, again, people are -- you know, what I hear all the time is people are tired of it. They`re tired of the negative portrayal that the national media has given the bull city.

GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Bruce Levy, medical examiner. Thank you for being with us, Dr. Levy. The district attorney said they are still waiting on additional DNA. Now, do you think that they`ve gotten that, based on the timing? He sent it off about a week ago. Did that have anything to do with the handing down of these indictments?

DR. BRUCE LEVY, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, they could certainly have gotten the DNA test back within a week. Most labs are backed up, but for high-priority cases, there are always exceptions made.

GRACE: And how often are rape cases prosecuted without DNA?

LEVY: I would say that, in most cases, that you`re not going to have DNA evidence. And that`s going to be a big issue, if there isn`t DNA evidence in this case.

GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest, the alleged rape victim`s father. We are going by his first name, Travis.

Sir, thank you for being with us.


GRACE: Sir, when I read the statement that you gave -- Elizabeth, if you could show that, please -- "He saw his daughter the day after the assault. Her face was beaten up, punched, bruised. She had scratches and bruises on her arms. Also, the day the DNA results came out, she cried and cried all night. It broke their heart to see their daughter like that. She could not sleep."

Sir, what is your response to the fact that your daughter has been pilloried, has been attacked in the media, that she basically had to leave town out of fear of reprisal?

TRAVIS: Well, it`s really horrible. I just, you know, it`s kind of hard to sit back and watch these things happen, you know. And then like she told me one time, she feels like she`s being victimized all over again.

GRACE: Sir, why did she feel she had to leave town?

TRAVIS: Well, she just didn`t have any privacy, and her kids couldn`t go outside to play. And I think that`s one of the reasons.

GRACE: Sir, what did she look like the day after the alleged assault?

TRAVIS: Well, I could see the bruises on her face. She had a scratch on her arm. And then I didn`t know the whole -- you know, the whole detail what went on, because she was feeling bad at the time. And she also said her leg was hurting. So I didn`t do much questioning that day. And, of course, she was with her boyfriend, and so he took her home.

GRACE: When had you seen her before that time?

TRAVIS: I saw her the night it happened.

GRACE: Before the incident?


GRACE: Did she have bruises or scratches at that time?

TRAVIS: Not one. Not one.

GRACE: Are you absolutely positive?

TRAVIS: I`m sure. And she was happy and laughing. As a matter of fact, I took her to the store before she left.

GRACE: For what?

TRAVIS: She wanted to go to the store, and get some soda, and get the children some candy before she left.

GRACE: Before she went to the party?

TRAVIS: Yes, yes.

GRACE: How does she feel about being a stripper?

TRAVIS: I couldn`t answer that. I really couldn`t.

GRACE: Did you know she was stripping?

TRAVIS: No, I didn`t.

GRACE: So that was a secret until now.


GRACE: Well, you know what? I can understand that. I can understand that. Sir, you said you saw bruises on her face. Where were they?

TRAVIS: Right up under her eyes, and her jaw was swollen.

GRACE: And where was the scratch on her arm?

TRAVIS: It was on her right arm, I believe it were.

GRACE: Where, above or below the elbow?

TRAVIS: It was between the wrist and her elbow.

GRACE: Have you talked to her about the incident since that day?

TRAVIS: Yes, I have.

GRACE: What is she saying?

TRAVIS: Well, she didn`t go through a lot of it. She didn`t tell me a lot of the details, but she did tell me that three boys had raped her. And I asked her where was it at, where did it happen at? And she said at that house. And then I felt horrible, because that was the same place that she asked me how to get to.

GRACE: Sir, I just -- I hate what you are going through right now. When you spoke to her afterwards, did she talk to you about having to go through the whole examination, and talking to police, and so forth?

TRAVIS: Yes, she mentioned something about where she said she had -- the next day, she had to go to see or identify the people, I think it was, the way she put it.

GRACE: Could she identify any of them?

TRAVIS: I think she did.

GRACE: How is she doing now?

TRAVIS: She`s doing pretty good. Under the circumstances, you know, I think she`s doing pretty good.

GRACE: Sir, did she know this girl who went with her that night or was that the first time they had ever been together?

TRAVIS: I`m not sure how well she`d known her before then.

GRACE: Yes, sir.

TRAVIS: Matter of fact, I`m not sure that she know her at all before then. I`m not sure.

GRACE: So, for all we know, they could have been thrown together that night for the first time?

TRAVIS: As far as I know, yes, it`s possible.

GRACE: What does the boyfriend have to say about all this?

TRAVIS: He didn`t do a whole lot of talking about it, really.

GRACE: Where is her mom?

TRAVIS: She`s at home.

GRACE: How is she taking it?

TRAVIS: Not well at all.

GRACE: What do you mean by that?

TRAVIS: Well, she`s worried about her. She`s worried, you know, how she`s doing and everything. And she`s just worried, you know, period.

GRACE: You said that the night the DNA results came out, she cried all night.

TRAVIS: She said she cried all night long. She couldn`t believe it.

GRACE: What is she saying about the fact there was no DNA?

TRAVIS: Well, she felt like they thought that she was lying. And she just couldn`t take it.

GRACE: Did she describe at all the series of events that led up to the attack?

TRAVIS: No, she didn`t describe all of it. A lot of things I learned later that really -- it really tore me apart.

GRACE: Like what?

TRAVIS: Oh, like the broom they used on her and stuff like that.

GRACE: Yes. I had read, in various reports, that they had threatened her with a broom, and then she and the other girl got scared and left. And then they, according to her, basically coaxed her back in, going, OK, OK, OK, we`re sorry, come back in. How did the police treat her when they took her in?

TRAVIS: I don`t know. But I hear they -- I hear a tape on it, which I can`t really comment on that too much (INAUDIBLE) hear on the tape, but it seemed like she was on the ground, and he said she was drunk, best of my knowledge what I heard.

GRACE: Now, sir, you had been with her that night, right before she went to the party, correct?


GRACE: Had she been drinking?

TRAVIS: No, not to my knowledge. As a matter of fact, when she called me, I could tell that, if she drank, she hadn`t drank enough to even begin to be drunk.

GRACE: Why do you think she was lying in the car like that in the Kroger parking lot, refusing to get out of the car?

TRAVIS: I don`t know. That`s something I never did understand why, what happened.

GRACE: Did she tell you at all about how her fingernails got torn off in the bathroom?

TRAVIS: No, she didn`t.


Joining us tonight, speaking on air for the first time, is the father of this alleged victim. And we will all be right back. Please stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The idea that Duke is trying to sweep this under the rug is absolutely false. Duke has freely allowed about every reporter in the United States of America onto campus. The university has dealt with this in a very direct, upfront, and professional way, and they have suspended the lacrosse season, and they have accepted the resignation of the director of the lacrosse team.


GRACE: Tonight, reports that two lacrosse players have been indicted. Those indictments are sealed. The grand jury spoke today.

Straight out to Stacey Schneider, defense attorney. It is not the normal SOP, standard operating procedure, in North Carolina to seal indictments. Why seal?

STACY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Generally, indictments get sealed because the grand jury may be continuing to hear evidence about other suspects or potential co-defendants in a case and they don`t want to release the name of who`s already been indicted until their work is complete, so they`ll keep things secret. They have the right to do that; the prosecutor has the right to do that. And it generally signals that there`s still some work to be done by the grand jury.

GRACE: Or, Allison Gilman, defense attorney, as well, could it signify that there has been some deal between the defense attorneys and the prosecution, so the indictment will remained sealed. The press, therefore, would not know when the person is going into custody or going into police to be processed, fingerprint. No perp walk, in other words. Nothing made public. Are they getting preferential treatment?

ALLISON GILMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It absolutely could be, Nancy. You know, I don`t like the whole sealed indictment thing. To me, it`s sneaky. What are they hiding. This is such a big publicity case. Why are they keeping it under the covers? There`s something going on here, and I don`t like it.

GRACE: What do you mean by that?

GILMAN: I don`t like the whole thing about being sealed. I mean, everything`s so out in the public. I mean, we know there is no DNA evidence. We know that -- well, at least we don`t really know if there`s an identification. We know about the bruising. You know, everything is a secret, but yet we have two people that are suddenly indicted out of the whole team. Why?

GRACE: Now, I don`t know that anything is sudden. And we do know that there have been identifications.

And, for all we know, to Brian Reich, detective here in New York, it`s hard for me to believe not one person came forward to say what happened.

BRIAN REICH, DETECTIVE, COMPUTER CRIMES UNIT: Absolutely. And, you know, the sealed indictments are going to be, because they want to keep things close to their vest. And I`m sure they`re continuing their investigation; they`re interviewing people; they`re gathering information.

And I couldn`t disagree more with the attorney that was just on that it`s sneaky and there are surreptitious things going on here. It`s certainly...


REICH: It`s an investigation. They want to keep things close to their vest. They want to interview people, and they don`t want to give away what they have, and they want to be able to use the evidence they have to leverage people to talk and to get as much information as they can. It`s a good investigative practice, when you have cases such as these.

GRACE: You know, to Phil Rosenbaum, Phil, grand juries are always held in secret so witnesses will not be intimidated, right?

PHIL ROSENBAUM, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s one factor, Nancy. Also, you want to take a look at some of the other reasons the Supreme Court itself backs up and supports.

You want to prevent the escape of those who may be indicted. You want to prevent jury tampering. You want to prevent perjury or lying by anybody who takes the stand. You also want to encourage witnesses to be as forthcoming as possible. And you want to protect the identity of those who are cleared, the suspects who don`t get indicted, that is.

GRACE: Absolutely. With me right now, along with the alleged victim`s father, speaking live for the first time with us tonight, is her cousin, Jackie.

Jackie, tell me, to your knowledge, how is she doing tonight?

JACKIE, COUSIN OF ALLEGED RAPE VICTIM: To my knowledge, she`s doing as well as to be expected.

GRACE: How is she responding -- Jackie, first of all, thank you for coming on with us.

JACKIE: You`re welcome.

GRACE: How is she responding to everyone trying to make her out to be a liar?

JACKIE: All I know is what my aunt told me, her mother. And it`s very devastating for her. She`s already been victimized one time, and she feels like she`s being victimized again. So it`s devastating for her.

GRACE: I want to go back now to Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio. Kevin, what next?

MILLER: Nancy, the reason why -- one of the speculative reasons why the indictments were sealed was, if they weren`t sealed, you would have the players and the accused being notified via the media and you`d had an even bigger circus than we`ve had.

From what I hear, we should know who was indicted by tomorrow afternoon during your show. That`s what my sources are telling me.

GRACE: And, of course, Kevin, secret grand jury is standard. Those proceedings are not typically made public, although at trial the transcript is available to the defense attorneys.

Let`s go to the phones. Donna in New York. Hi, Donna.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Oh, listen, I agree with the victim`s aunt. I had a friend that was brutally raped 20 years ago, and she was victimized again through the system, which hasn`t progressed. I wanted to know: The attorneys cleared supposedly the lacrosse team with DNA.

GRACE: Right.

CALLER: OK. How do they know that the victim wasn`t clear, as far as who hurt her/raped her? It could have been their buddies. It could have been the lacrosse team`s buddies. That`s why they`re not getting any DNA from the lacrosse team itself.

GRACE: You know what? That is an excellent idea. And when we get back, we`re going to discuss that with the experts.

Everyone, I want to remind you, on Court TV, live coverage of an Internet hacking case that leads to a murder, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern.

Very quickly, let`s pause to remember Army Specialist Thomas Wilwerth, 21, Mastic, New York. Tonight, Wilwerth, an American hero.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... problems that we`ve had with this house and some of the other houses are a result of a small number of people over a number of years causing a problem. And this is in no way indicative of the Duke students as a whole or this community.


GRACE: Welcome, everyone. Tonight, we understand that two indictments have been handed down against two lacrosse players there at Duke University in connection with the alleged rape, multiple rape, on a student-turned-stripper.

Straight back out to Kevin Miller with WPTF Radio. Kevin, the next step, do you believe there will be additional indictments?

MILLER: Not from what I`m hearing, Nancy. I believe what will happen, from what I`d heard and from what I`ve researched, is that we will know who they are tomorrow and we will be talking about it tomorrow night.

GRACE: So you don`t expect additional indictments?


GRACE: But the alleged victim said that there were three attackers. If there are two indictments, that would mean only two people named.

MILLER: Right, that would mean the grand jury only had enough evidence or they were only convinced of enough evidence to indict two people.


To Stacey Schneider, defense attorney, so I guess the first move by the defense will be, once this indictment comes down, an arrest and then an immediate bond hearing?

SCHNEIDER: That`s correct. Actually, these two indicted individuals will be arraigned following the indictment, which is a formal reading of the charges upon which they have been indicted. They will make an appearance in court.

But I want to point out something, Nancy, that isn`t coming out here: I heard the alleged victim`s father, and his statements were very moving and very poignant, and I`m sure his daughter`s reactions are quite real. But...

GRACE: What`s your point?

SCHNEIDER: The point is she claimed that she clawed the men that attacked her and she had skin under her nails that was tested in initial DNA rounds. None of that skin matched any of the lacrosse players.

GRACE: No, actually what she said was that her -- she fought back. She clawed. Her nails were found broken off on the bathroom floor. I don`t believe she ever mentioned anything about flesh. And let me remind everyone, the absence of DNA does not mean a crime did not occur.

I want to thank all of my guests, especially Travis and Jackie.

Thank you for being with us, everyone, and inviting us into your homes. Until tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, good night, friend.


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