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NANCY GRACE

Judge Rules Child Molester Too Short to Go to Prison

Aired May 26, 2006 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, to Nebraska. Judge Kristine Cecava, you are in contempt! A 50-year-old child molester accused of raping a 12-year- old little girl gets no jail time. Repeat -- check your ears -- no jail time! Why? The judge says he`s too short, 5-foot-1, and she`s afraid he would be picked on behind bars. Lincoln, Nebraska, wake up, everybody!
And tonight: Pedal to the metal for two very attractive grannies, these two sexy seniors suspected of taking in a string of men who all end up dead after mysterious hit-and-runs. And guess who are the beneficiaries? Dear old Granny.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have linked them to a life insurance fraud scheme that has netted them more than $2 million in claims. Both women were linked to the hit-and-run deaths of two men in two separate incidents nearly six years apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. A string of men dead in suspicious hit-and- runs, two charming seniors, $2 million richer off the insurance money.

But first tonight: You are in contempt! Too short for prison? A Nebraska judge keeps a convicted child molester out of jail for his safety because she says he`s too short! Child molestation, child rape -- well, what about the safety of the 12-year-old little girl he molested and other possible victims? I wonder how tall she was when he molested her! Outrage! Nebraska needs to protest at the courthouse. And tonight, we are taking your calls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Richard Thompson may not have to do hard time. The 50-year-old man from Sidney, Nebraska, is convicted of raping a 13- year-old girl on two separate occasions, but Thompson may not have to wear the orange jumpsuit, the rubber sandals, and he may not have to live with other inmates. That`s because a district judge gave him 10 years probation, a lighter sentence reportedly because Thompson is 5-foot-1.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s an abomination. My office will appeal it. I don`t care if he`s three feet tall. It doesn`t make any difference. You abuse a child, you`re going to pay a price.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I just wonder what the good people of Sidney, Nebraska, are thinking now. Or do they even know what the judge is up to? Let`s go out to Jim Hedley. He`s the editor of "The Sidney Sun-Telegraph." Welcome. Bring us up to date, Jim. At first, I thought this was a joke. Then I found out it`s not.

JIM HEDLEY, EDITOR, "SIDNEY SUN-TELEGRAPH": I thought it was a joke, too, and I was right in the courtroom. We just cannot believe that this has happened. This is not representative of the community I live in. And in fact, this is my hometown.

GRACE: Aren`t you a little embarrassed -- I mean, I would be -- that this would happen in your hometown? A guy is accused of raping a 12-year- old little girl, and you find out a judge, a sitting judge on the trial bench, thinks that it`s OK to give straight probation? I mean, where`s the guy going to live?

HEDLEY: He`s going to live in town, obviously. Hopefully, this sentence will be appealed very shortly.

GRACE: Well, it`s my understanding it will be appealed. But Jim, tell me the facts leading up to the judge -- now, how do you pronounce her name, Jim?

HEDLEY: Whose name?

GRACE: The judge.

HEDLEY: Cecava.

GRACE: Cecava. Judge Cecava. Where did she come from? Let me guess. She was a political appointee?

HEDLEY: I was not living in my community when she was appointed. I don`t know.

GRACE: You`ve got to find out and tell me. Hold on. Who would know that? Ellie! Ellie, is she appointed?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was. She was, by a former Nebraska governor (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: So OK, she was not elected.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.

GRACE: Jim, do you have elections for judges there?

HEDLEY: Judges are retained or not retained during an election. They`re not elected.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. You just said they`re retained or not retained during an election.

HEDLEY: You have to vote them out.

GRACE: OK. So this woman got put on the bench, a political appointee, by the governor. Now, OK, tell me about this case.

Everyone, we are talking about a convicted child molester that this judge, Judge Cecava, gives straight probation. Probation! He`s accused of raping a little girl, a 12-year-old little girl. OK, what happened, Jim?

HEDLEY: Originally, there were seven charges in this case. They were class 2 felonies. Two of those cases were in question as to what date they occurred, so they were dropped immediately. That left five charges on the table.

GRACE: Wait a minute! Wait a minute. Because there was an issue over what date they occurred?

HEDLEY: Yes.

GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on! Let me go out to Jan Ronis, veteran defense attorney. Jan, take off your defense hat just one moment. You and I both know, when the prosecution can`t pinpoint the date of the offense, which is not unusual in child molestation cases, you give a range. For instance, I had child molestation victims, and they remember the Christmas tree was up when they were molested. So you put in the indictment this molestation occurred between September 30 and January 15, when the Christmas tree was up.

And that is perfectly acceptable under the law, Jan. You don`t have to have a specific date.

JAN RONIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, that`s true. I mean, it appears as though two charges were dropped. That did leave five charges. I`m sure the sentencing parameters for the other five charges were sufficient if the judge had wanted to send him to prison. It may very well have been that the statute of limitations had run on the other two. So it`s kind of hard to tell from the description.

GRACE: Ah-ah-ah-ah! You know what you`re doing? Elizabeth, let me see Jan Ronis`s face just a moment. There he is. He`s a good-looking guy. But right now, he`s fishing. Throw it out there. The statute ran. No, the statute had not run. If the statute had run, the whole thing would have been thrown out, Jan Ronis.

RONIS: Hey, I mean, it could have been a proof problem. On the facts described, it`s hard to say. It very well could have been a proof problem with respect to those two charges. But in any event...

GRACE: Coulda, woulda, shoulda! If there was a proof problem, why did he plead guilty?

RONIS: Well, with respect to those two charges. There were five additional charges. I`m sure the sentencing parameters that remained with those five charges were sufficient that the judge, had she wanted, could have put him in prison for a long time.

GRACE: Well, Jan Ronis, you`re right about that. Ronis knows the law.

Back to Jim Hedley. This guy was looking at hard jail time. I believe it was -- Ellie, was it five years on each charge? And he pled guilty to two charges. That`s 10 years.

HEDLEY: It`s 60 years on each charge originally.

GRACE: You mean on all seven charges?

HEDLEY: On all seven charges.

GRACE: Right. The two charges he pled guilty to, it was five years - - up to five years behind bars on each charge, and a $5,000 fine. And she gives him straight probation. Let`s get back to what happened, Jim.

HEDLEY: First of all, this man is a friend of mine. When he was going in for the sentencing, I reached up and shook his hand and wished him luck. We`ve known each other for a long time. I was saying good-bye to someone I`ve known for a long, long time.

GRACE: Jim, I appreciate the handshake, but I`m talking about the facts of the case. What happened?

HEDLEY: OK. We walked in there. There were five charges left on the table. In plea bargaining, it went to three charges. The level of the felony was reduced, as well, into a class 3 misdemeanor.

GRACE: OK. So they pled the case down.

Still, Pat Lalama, investigative reporter, 10 years behind bars on the table. The guy was charged with raping a 12-year-old girl and fondling her all over her body for a period of months. How did he get access? He was dating her mom. What do you know? Let me go out to Pat Lalama.

PAT LALAMA, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: What I do know, Nancy, is that it seems before they even issued the sentence, there was too much leniency going on in terms of even negotiating it down for what he did. But what really -- oh, by the way, let`s just talk about the terms while he`s on probation because that`s important. He can`t live with anyone who`s got kids. He can`t be around kids. And he`s only going to be shackled -- excuse me for using that word for an electronic monitoring -- for four months! Now, let me tell you...

GRACE: You mean an anklet. He`s going to wear an anklet.

LALAMA: Yes. I like to call it a shackle, make it sound a little tougher than it is. But Nancy, here`s what really gets me. Listen to what the judge said. Well, you know, it`s true that you are convicted of these things. However, you are not a hunter. Anybody who puts their fingertip on a child in that regard is a hunter! And that`s what I don`t get.

GRACE: Let me go to Clark Goldband. Clark, he`s 5-1. Show me that.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE INTERNET REPORTER: All right, Nancy. We have a tape measure here. Let`s take a look at 5-foot-1. From the floor where I`m standing to about -- it`s about your height, actually, I think.

GRACE: My height is none of your business, and I`m not headed to the penitentiary for child molestation.

Let me go back to Pat Lalama. Pat, how did this convergence of events take place?

LALAMA: Well, he lived with the woman, the fiancee. The 12-year-old was the child, of course, her child. And over a series of time, he molested the child. And we don`t really know how many events actually did take place, but that`s how it happened.

And you know what, Nancy? In these molestation cases, there are so many cases where the hunter -- I`ll use the word -- will seek out a woman who does have young children. And in this case, it appears that was the case.

GRACE: Take a listen to what the Department of Corrections had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have individuals that are small that have functioned very well in general population, and they`ve done that for years without any kinds of problems. And they`re smaller than 5-foot-1.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to attorney general John Bruning. Thank you for being with us, sir. He is the Nebraska attorney general. It`s a real honor to have you, sir. Is it Bruning or Brunning?

JOHN BRUNING, NEBRASKA ATTORNEY GENERAL: It`s Bruning.

GRACE: Thank you for being with us. Can you believe this? Can you believe straight probation, when this guy was charged, count one, raping a 12-year-old girl?

BRUNING: Yes, this sentence doesn`t make a lot of sense. It`s something that we would have appealed regardless of the rationale because this is somebody that deserves jail time. When you abuse a child, when you sexually abuse a child on multiple occasions, you deserve prison time.

GRACE: Let`s go out to our "Star Chamber." Joining us tonight, three veteran trial judges. They have been in this position many, many times before.

Elizabeth, do we have our "Star Chamber" ready? Are they here with us?

Let`s go straight out to Congressman Ted Poe. He`s a former judge in Harris County, Texas. Congressman Poe, it`s great to see you. I really admire what you`re doing in Washington on the Child Safety Act, 2005. Congressman, Judge, can you believe it?

REP. TED POE (R-TX), FORMER HARRIS COUNTY JUDGE: I`ve heard a lot of defenses, but I`ve never heard I`m too short to go to prison defense. This doesn`t make any sense. The judge is trying to excuse this person`s conduct. He ought to be locked up for molesting this little girl. And even the 10 years` probation is an insult to the whole system.

And you nailed it first when you mentioned she`s appointed. The people of Nebraska had nothing to do with her being on the bench.

GRACE: Again, everyone, with us tonight, our special "Star Chamber." In addition to former judge, Congressman Ted Poe, we also have Congressman John Carter out of Williamson County, Texas, also a former judge. These gentlemen left the bench well respected, having presided over countless criminal cases.

To you, Judge Carter. What do you advise this judge, Judge Cecava, sitting in Nebraska tonight?

REP. JOHN CARTER (R-TX), FORMER JUDGE, WILLIAMSON COUNTY, NE: Well, this is -- it`s an abomination to -- this sentence. This man needs to do jail time, and a lot of it. He would get a lot more time than that in Texas, and he certainly would in Williamson County.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got a feeling, Judge, that pretty much the whole country agrees. I mean, a 12-year-old girl -- let`s see, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 -- she was either in the 5th or the 6th grade. Think about it, Judge Carter. What were you doing in the 5th grade? Let`s see. That was my first year of 4-H camp.

CARTER: You`re a child.

GRACE: Yes!

CARTER: You`re a child.

GRACE: I was still out riding my bicycle after school. And this little girl, according to prosecutors, has had full-blown sexual intercourse with a man 50 years old! It is disgusting!

CARTER: It`s sick. And you know, I also read that the judge from the bench said, And you`re going to have to get rid of that pornography. You know, that -- I don`t know how she figures he`s not a hunter. He`s got all the elements that we see in so many of these cases. And this is just a terrible travesty. It shouldn`t have happened. And I feel -- my heart goes out to the family and that child.

GRACE: Well, it really does. I only hope that our attorney general, John Bruning, with us from Nebraska, can do something about it.

Hello? Ring! Judge Cecava? Oh, she didn`t take our calls. She doesn`t want to clear this little matter up. We tried all day to get a response from her. Guess what? Suddenly, the cat`s got her tongue!

Let`s go out to Colleen in Nevada. Hi, Colleen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, this man is not too short to rape a child, but he`s too short to go to prison. Do you know how many convicts serving time might just start filing paperwork with the courts to get released from prison because they`re either too short or too tall?

GRACE: You know what? You`re scaring me. Colleen, you`re not a defense lawyer, are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I`m a victim of sexual abuse when I was a child and...

GRACE: Oh. I am sorry to hear that.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I got over it, but this really disgusts me. He`s too short to do prison time, but he`s too short to do -- I mean, excuse me. I`m getting a little bit nervous. He`s too...

GRACE: Colleen, wait a minute. I`ve got a question for you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: I`m sure it`s taken you years and years to try to go beyond -- I don`t think I had a single child molestation victim that it didn`t take years for them to...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I grew up very poor, and the one thing -- I went to a very good high school, and like they said, somebody has been raped before you. Somebody has been beat before you. Somebody has been done injustice before you. But they survive, and so shall you.

GRACE: I wonder how this little 12-year-old girl is going to feel when she grows up and finds out this guy didn`t do jail time because he`s too short. We`ll be right back with Colleen in Nevada and all of our guests. We are taking your calls tonight.

But first, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Help us find a 3-year-old North Dakota girl, Reachelle Smith, last seen May 16. Tonight, the search focusing on a river and a landfill. The body of her alleged kidnapper found in a van where he committed suicide, but no sign of little Reachelle, 3 feet, brown hair, brown eyes. Anyone with info, please call 701-852- 0111.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody here has a deep concern for kids, and they`d sure like to see this thing come to a happy conclusion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s something you got to do to try and put the family`s mind at ease. This little girl has to be found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During the sentencing, Judge Kristine Cecava told Thompson he should serve time, but she also said his height makes him a potential victim in jail. Rape victim advocates like Mary Larson (ph) says that`s putting Thompson`s safety above the community`s.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I imagine the perpetrator didn`t check the height of the victim as he was choosing his victim. He chose the victim by their vulnerability and accessibility, not by height.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Believe it or not, a judge in Nebraska -- her name is judge Kristine Cecava -- has given a convicted child molester straight probation. Why? She says he`s too short to go behind bars. She says he may get picked on behind bars. He`s 5-1.

Now, to my understanding, to Joe Mangano, a trustee with the National Association (SIC) for Short-Statured Adults, short people is not a protected class. I`m a short people. Joe, are you with me?

JOE MANGANO, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF SHORT-STATURED ADULTS: Yes, I am.

GRACE: Is this some type of protected class I don`t know about?

MANGANO: Well, we are not a protected class at this point in time. We are an organization that has been set up to deal with height-ism in society, and that`s basically what we are trying to do at this point in time. We`ve heard about the decision. We do not support the decision. We do not believe -- I want to make it absolutely crystal clear, and I want to state unequivocally, that our organization does not support child molesters, pedophiles or sexual predators of any height, of any sort. But we do recognize height as a factor in life, and that`s why our organization was set up to attempt to make this an issue.

GRACE: With us is Joe. He is from the National Association for Short-Statured Adults.

Out to my friend and colleague Andy Kahan. He is the director of Houston`s Crime Victims Office, a tireless crusader for victims` rights. Andy, what do you make of it?

ANDY KAHAN, DIR., VICTIMS CRIME OFFICE FOR HOUSTON MAYOR: Well, you know, Nancy, during this past year, I thought other judges` decisions were totally out of whack, decisions in Vermont, Ohio, and certainly, the judge that gave the violent rapist, Joseph Duncan, the absurd low bond. But I think this judge in Nebraska just made the top five list for right now.

You know, there`s height requirements for roller-coasters. I`ve never seen in my 25 years of criminal justice a height requirement for a sadistic child predator to enter the penitentiary. And it also kind of makes me wonder what other judicial decisions she`s made based upon this type of absurd mitigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s an abomination. My office will appeal it. I don`t care if he`s three feet tall. It doesn`t make any difference. You abuse a child, you`re going to pay a price.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re darn right! And now this judge, Judge Kristine Cecava, has sentenced a convicted child molester -- he is accused by prosecutors with full-blown sex with a 12-year-old little girl, he is 50 -- straight probation. What`s the sentence? He has to wear an anklet. But here`s the kicker. Why? She says he`s to short to go to jail. I`ve now heard it all. I can go ahead, put away my law degree and retire because nothing is going to top this.

Let`s go out to Nancy in Texas. Hi, Nancy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Mrs. Grace.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am from a state that probably is more hard on child molesters than anybody. I`m proud of the gentleman you talked to from Texas. My question is, where was the mother of this young woman who was raped by this man? Did they not consult her at all about the sentencing for this man, the effect it`s had on her and her life and her daughter`s life for the rest of her life?

GRACE: Nancy, I`ve got some bad news for you. In practically every child molestation I ever prosecuted, when the mom was either married or slung (ph) up with, living with the perpetrator, they always took the perp`s side. I don`t understand it.

To Jim Hedley, if you can, in a nutshell, did the girl`s mother speak or protest this sentence, or was she OK with straight probation?

HEDLEY: No, she was not in the room. They thought that maybe the victim would show up. They had delayed the hearing about a half an hour just to see if she would show up, but the victim did not show up.

GRACE: I`m not talking about the 12-year-old girl. I`m talking about the mother. The mother should have been laying on the courthouse steps, screaming at the top of her lungs over this!

HEDLEY: I agree, and no one seems to know where the mother is.

GRACE: OK. Chuck in Ohio. Hi, Chuck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw on the news earlier that the same judge gave a cow thief eight years in prison.

GRACE: You`re right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are they planning on a psych evaluation for the judge?

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: OK, I`ve got to go to the expert, not in cow felonies. Let`s go to attorney general John Bruning, Nebraska attorney general. Is it true that this judge sentenced a guy to eight years behind bars for cow fraud? He tried to sell a bunch of cattle and he really didn`t have any cattle to sell?

BRUNING: Yes, that`s what I understand.

GRACE: Oh, Lord help me!

BRUNING: You know, the good news is, we can appeal it. The statute allows our office to appeal it. We will appeal it. We`ve had success in appealing lenient sentences. So the supreme court of Nebraska is listening on these types of issues, and I think we`re going to have success here. We`d have had success here without the short person comment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s an abomination. My office will appeal it. I don`t care if he`s three feet tall; it doesn`t make any difference. You abuse a child, you`re going to pay a price.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the attorney general speaking out against a judge. Her name is Kristine Cecava. Are you listening, Nebraska? I hope you are. Because she sentenced a convicted child molester to straight probation, why? Because he`s short. He has to wear an anklet, like half the women out on Third Avenue. That`s his sentence.

Let`s go out to Elizabeth Kelley, defense attorney. Elizabeth, you never have tried a too-short-to-go-to-jail defense, have you?

ELIZABETH KELLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I never have tried that one. What bothers me about this particular case...

GRACE: Well, are you planning to try it now that you`ve heard about it?

KELLEY: I don`t know if I can with a straight face. But what bothers me about this is this sentence is the exception and not the rule. For all of us who represent sex offenders on a regular basis, we know that judges throw the book at these guys. They go to prison. They get slapped with a sexual predator label. When they get out of prison, they can only live in certain areas. And this sentence is going to create a huge misperception in the eyes of the public.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, Nancy in Texas. Hi, Nancy. You`re on the air, dear.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I love you. I think you`re great.

GRACE: Thank you. We repeat at 10:00.

CALLER: I want to know if that judge, after the little girl had the courage to speak up for herself -- which is hard to do -- if that judge is going to face that girl and tell her why that she`s just disregarded all of this? How is the little girl ever going to have any courage again to stand up for herself?

GRACE: Nancy, in a single word, no, this judge is never going to have to face the victim. The little girl was not in court and neither was her mother. So, apparently, the mother was OK. And, remember, the perpetrator is the mom`s fiance.

I want to go to Mark Hillman, clinical psychologist. Mark, question: It`s so hard for even adult victims of child molestation to go on. And I think that, from my anecdotal experience with child molestation victims, is they felt so helpless when this was happening to them and that feeling of helplessness pervades their adult life.

What is this girl going to do when she finds out the punishment for full blown sex with a 12-year-old girl by a 50-year-old man was he had to wear an anklet?

MARK HILLMAN, CLINICAL PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, she`s going to carry that vulnerability and that lack of trust for any sort of adult authority figure for the rest of her life. You know, this too short to go to jail -- tell that to someone who cares.

You do the crime; you do the time. This judge could benefit from some time in a therapist`s office, getting her head out of the clouds and understanding the long-term effects...

GRACE: I`m not sure that`s exactly where her head is, but if you say so. You`re the doctor. Go ahead.

HILLMAN: I was being politically correct. This girl is going to carry this for a long time. From my experience and practice for 25 years, you never really get over that sort of violation.

GRACE: What do they suffer, Mark? With us psychologist Dr. Mark Hillman. What type of after-effects, as girls and boys grow up after being molested, do they suffer?

HILLMAN: A lack of trust, insecurity, very interior with their emotions, very isolated, and very withdrawn.

GRACE: To Clark Goldband, not to say that this guy is going to commit a murder or any other crime -- I hope he doesn`t -- but we have a string of child molesters that kill.

GOLDBAND: We have some real creeps, Nancy. Let`s see some of them. This is David Onstott. You remember him well.

GRACE: Yes.

GOLDBAND: He`s current on trial for murdering Sarah Michelle Lunde, not yet convicted. He`s on trial for that. Let`s take a look at some more.

GRACE: Oh, I know him. That`s Couey, right?

GOLDBAND: No. That is Joseph Edward Duncan.

GRACE: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

GOLDBAND: I know it`s hard to keep them straight. They`re all a little freaky. That`s an understatement.

GRACE: Victim?

GOLDBAND: Yes, the victims were Shasta Groene and Dylan Groene...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And there is Couey.

GOLDBAND: And this is John Evander Couey. You remember him from the Jesse Lunsford case. Now he`s now proclaiming he`s innocent.

GRACE: And trying to get his confession suppressed, right. John Evander Couey escaped registration and was living caddie-corner to Jesse Lunsford, right.

GOLDBAND: Here`s the scariest part: They were all previously convicted sex offenders, and they were not behind bars.

GRACE: Pat Lalama, tell me again, what exactly is the sentence this guy is getting?

LALAMA: He`s going to get 10 years of probation with the electronic monitor for four months. He cannot be around young children nor live in a house with anyone who has children.

You know, Nancy, can I just throw out a few things here? Number one, in my experience, it seems to me that there are so many judges who just don`t take child molestation that seriously and they think it`s curable.

And, number two, my astute cameraman, Patrick, here just said, "What if the guy murders somebody? Is the judge going to say, `Well, we can`t send you to prison; you`re too short`"?

And the other thing, Nancy, the other point is almost always the mother does know that something is going on. And I am dying to know if she could be charged with child endangerment. I`d love to hear what the prosecutor in this case has to say about that.

GRACE: Take a listen to what this victim`s advocate had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Imagine -- the perpetrator didn`t check the height of the victim as he was choosing his victim. He chose the victim by their vulnerability and accessibility, not by height.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Before we take you out to our two senior citizen grannies accused of mowing down men, hit-and-runs for their life insurance policies, I want to go back to our star chamber.

With us tonight, two veteran judges who sat on the bench in one of the toughest jurisdictions in the country, Texas. No lack of business in the criminal courts there.

With me, Congressman Ted Poe, former trial judge, Harris County, Texas. What is your advice to the judge? But, wait, forget that. Judge Poe, when you were on the bench, didn`t you feel like you had to answer to the people, that it wasn`t just the three or four individuals in the courtroom, that you had a whole constituency looking up to you to do the right thing?

POE: No question about it. Judges should be accountable for every decision they make. And we in Texas were, of course, accountable to the public, because we were always elected.

But more importantly, we were accountable to the victim of the crime. And how any judge can prefer a child molester over a little girl that has been raped, how a judge can put a person in prison for stealing cows but not put him in prison for raping children, the judge doesn`t get it. And the judge probably ought to do something else, like maybe go and be a farmer in Nebraska.

GRACE: A social worker. Maybe she needs to be a social worker.

POE: Well, that`s what she`s trying to do on the bench.

GRACE: In a halfway house.

I want to go to our other judge on the star chamber. And let me advise you, again, these are two veteran trial judges that left the bench with respect. I want to go now to Congressman John Carter, former trial judge, Williamson County, Texas. Advice for the judge?

CARTER: She needs to get a life. She has been part of ruining one and not giving the proper sentence, and that little girl will suffer the rest of her life. It`s just like murder; she`s murdered the innocence of that child. She ought to be ashamed of herself, and I hope the people of Nebraska will remember this come retention time.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rutterschmidt`s friend, 75-year-old Helen Golay, also is being arrested at her home in Santa Monica. The women are charged with fraudulently collecting nearly $2.5 million in life insurance payments from two homeless men who later turned up dead in alleys, victims of hit- and-runs. By chance, police connected the cases, and now suspect the women did the driving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you believe it? Two sexy senior citizens behind bars on federal fraud charges, and they are looking down the wrong end of the barrel of murder one charges, as well.

Out to correspondent with "Time" magazine, Jeffrey Ressner. I read your article. And the comparison to "Arsenic and Old Lace" was great. Bring us up to date, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY RESSNER, "TIME" MAGAZINE CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it seems as though the police are looking into other potential victims of these two old ladies, or should I say little, old ladies.

GRACE: LOLs.

RESSNER: They found one blind gentleman who may have been the alleged killers` next victim. He had signed some papers for them, and they later found out that they were insurance forms. And so they may have been sort of fattening him up for the kill, as it were.

GRACE: We`re talking about two LOLs, little, old ladies. One is Helen Golay, 75. The other is Olga Rutterschmidt, 72. And apparently -- you know, I`ll get it from Pat Lalama, investigative reporter.

Lay it on me, Pat.

LALAMA: Well, here`s how it allegedly all came to pass. These two women would seek out -- and, boy, isn`t it great living in L.A.? I`m so proud of my fellow citizens here. These two greedy grannies decide that they`re going to prey...

GRACE: She`s kind of cute.

LALAMA: Oh, well, you know, cute is in the eye of the beholder, right? But they would prey on vulnerable men, men with...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Cute as Beelzebub.

LALAMA: Men, the homeless, the alcoholics. And they would say, "Look, we will pay your rent for two years." Now remember that two years. That`s very important. "We`ll pay your rent for two years, if you just, you know, take out an insurance policy, and we get to reap the money in case something should happen."

And these men who were desperate would go, "Yes, sure, sign away." Then they would take the original signature, rubber stamp it, and then go out and get, in the cases of these two men, a total of 19 different insurance policies, OK?

Now, the two years is important because, once two years pass, it`s almost impossible to fight an insurance company on the money that you got. It`s just difficult the way the laws are set up, and they knew that.

The cops actually believe that one or both of these women were very astute about the insurance industry and knew how to work it so they were able to reap $2.2.

And what`s interesting is, in one of the cases, the man who had the alcohol problem, he was found in an alley seven miles from his home, and he had very light clothing on. It was a freezing, cold day in November. And she had made a call to a tow company that morning around the same time in the same area to come and get a car, so that`s why cops are starting to think that they may have actually done the dirty deed themselves.

GRACE: Yes, why go through a middle man? Just mow the poor guys down yourself.

LALAMA: They don`t want to have to pay a cut, Nancy, I`m sure.

GRACE: Back to "Time" magazine correspondent Jeffrey Ressner. How did they pick their alleged victims, Jeffrey?

RESSNER: Well, only two of the victims are allegedly known about. And, apparently, Olga Rutterschmidt, the 72-year-old woman, was quite active in the Hungarian community, and she had met him in a Hungarian church.

GRACE: I notice -- go ahead.

RESSNER: I was going to say the blind gentleman, who was assumed to be the next victim, was introduced by a mutual friend who worked at a swap meet. So I think there`s sort of this Hungarian underground in Los Angeles where she would pick and choose.

GRACE: He worked where?

RESSNER: A mutual friend worked at a swap meet.

GRACE: What`s a swap meet?

RESSNER: It`s like a flea market.

GRACE: Oh, I see. OK. So, you know, I was looking at the autopsy report from one of these gentlemen, and the victims were elderly themselves. Well, one of them was 73; the other was just 50. And the third next potential victim is elderly, as well. And I notice he has cirrhosis of the liver. So it suggested to me he may have had a drinking issue.

But also, to Jeffrey Ressner, when you look at these guys` injuries, I mean, both of them were mowed down in back alleys. There weren`t really any witnesses. When you look at these injuries, Jeffrey, it`s not so funny anymore.

The guy has a laceration of his aorta, where the car ran over him, multiple rib fractures. His spleen was torn open; his left kidney torn open. And so many traumatic injuries, breaks and contusions I can`t even count them. What a horrible way to die.

To John Garamendi, he is the commissioner with the California Department of Insurance. Sir, thank you for being with us. How do you go about getting insurance on somebody you hardly know?

JOHN GARAMENDI, COMMISSIONER, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF INSURANCE: Well, you`re going probably to have to cheat. There`s no other way. The laws are pretty clear: You have to have an insurable interest, and usually that`s a relative or something like that.

These ladies went out of their way to establish that and fraudulently do so. They simply provided false information that these people were living with them, they were taking care of them, trying to establish that insurable interest.

But I`ve got to tell you, we see a lot of weird stories, a lot of different kinds of crime. And if evil lurks in the heart of men, it certainly lurked in the heart of these women.

GRACE: To Jan Ronis, the possibility of female serial killers is actually very, very rare. What`s your best defense here?

JAN RONIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it doesn`t look like it`s a serial killing. I mean, it very well may just be a simple insurance fraud. You know, there are upwards...

GRACE: You`ve got two dead bodies and a third intended victim. That`s three dead bodies. That`s three. That`s a serial, that we know of.

RONIS: Right. Right now, they`re charged in federal court with insurance fraud. It very well may just be a simple insurance fraud. You know, there are upwards of 70,000 homeless people in L.A. It`s probably a pretty good bet, if you take an insurance policy out on one of them, they`re likely to reach an early demise, so it may just be a simple insurance case, not a homicide case.

GRACE: So you`re saying they defrauded the insurance company, but they had nothing to do with the actual killings?

To Jeffrey Ressner with "Time" magazine, when they got in touch with one of the guy`s families, didn`t they say, "Who are these women? We`ve never heard of them. We`ve never met them in our lives"?

RESSNER: That`s true. The families of the deceased men -- at least in one case -- were completely clueless about who these women were and how they managed to enter their relative`s life. They preyed on these guys, apparently. They set them up in apartments. They posed as their girlfriends or as their relatives, in order to get the insurance paper signed, and their families were none the wiser.

GRACE: With us is Jeffrey Ressner with "Time" magazine. Let`s go out to clinical psychologist Mark Hillman.

Mark, it`s pretty unusual to see a female predator up in their 70s. Here you`ve got these two ladies, Helen Golay, 75, and Olga Rutterschmidt, 72.

HILLMAN: No remorse, no value for human life, regardless that these men were homeless. But think about it: You buy an inexpensive term insurance policy for $5,000 and you get $2.2 million after putting them up in a room. You know what? These women are serious predators. They`re hunters, to go back to the previous story, but no remorse for human life.

GRACE: And, Mark, this is a very violent crime. This is a violent death.

HILLMAN: Oh, my god. But, you know, what was mentioned earlier is that the woman called a tow truck an hour before the body was discovered, you know, a few blocks away. I mean, what are these women thinking?

GRACE: Let`s go to Linda in Tennessee. Hi, Linda.

CALLER: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Yes, I was wondering how much time these seniors are going to get for committing these crimes.

GRACE: Good question. What about it, Elizabeth Kelley? What kind of time are they looking at?

KELLEY: Well, right now, Helga and Olga are charged with federal mail fraud. And according to the statute, they can only be sentenced up to a maximum of five years.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courts. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Little Reachelle Smith was taken from her North Dakota home by a 22-year-old man posing as her father. He is found parked in a van in the midst of a national forest, apparently dead from a self-inflicted carbon monoxide inhalation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all miss her very much. She is our peanut.

GRACE: No offense, lady, but why did you wait four days to report the girl missing?

Guilty, guilty, guilty for two Enron fat cats. But don`t you worry, to Lay and Skilling, we`re holding a vigil here on the set for you. And I want you to appeal the case all the way to the top.

JEFFREY SKILLING, FORMER CEO OF ENRON: We fought the good fight, and that`s the way the system works.

KEN LAY, FOUNDER OF ENRON: I firmly believe I`m innocent of the charges against me.

GRACE: Poor guys. They only made how many millions of dollars off their shareholders?

Paralyzed by a drunk driver, forever confined to his bed, his parents keeping vigil on the floor beside their son every night. Now, all three dead at the hands of an intruder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They received a 911 call from Mr. Fowler. He had been shot in the stomach and in the head.

GRACE: No forced entry, no robbery, no sex attack.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They always said we have nothing, but we have each other.

GRACE: A 19-year-old Nebraska girl last heard from May 10th. Her car abandoned in a parking lot near the mall restaurant where she worked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a criminal investigation. Technically, she is a missing person, but they are zeroing in on the boyfriend.

GRACE: A romantic lakeside vacation turns deadly when a 37-year-old woman goes along with her husband`s idea for a romantic reconciliation. Accident or was she pushed?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My whole world exploded. There`s no other way to put it.

GRACE: Well, she`s dead, and he`s on trial.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Man, what a week.

Tonight, we stop to remember Captain Timothy J. Moshier, 25, Delmar, New York, killed, Iraq. He`s remembered as a great storyteller, leaving behind a wife and daughter. Tonight, an American hero.

Thank you to all of my guests. Our biggest thank you, to you, for being with us. A special sweet good night to our dear Ellie, headed off to her wedding. Love to Ellie and Cloud (ph). Until Monday night, when we remember our veterans, good night, friend.

END

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