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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Phoenix Crime Spree; Tracking Down Killers; al Qaeda Video Links Killings with Rape; U.S. War Crimes?; Cowboy Hats Off?; Baby Health Battle; Chappelle's Story
Aired July 10, 2006 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... detailed description of this individual.
KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Luis Fernandez's (ph) home turf, central Phoenix.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me it's more of an urgency and then maybe anger that this is actually going on.
WYNTER: And this is the third time in a little more than a year that Phoenix has been terrorized. Separate from these shootings, a serial killer, dubbed the baseline rapist, is believed to have murdered five people since August.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right behind this building here is where one of our victims was found.
WYNTER: And there was another wave of shootings that began months before that. In May 2005, four people were killed back then. Police believe the three shooting sprees are not related. And the most recent shootings have police more baffled than ever.
(On camera): The last two happened just over the past weekend, suspects who may have been traveling in a car shot a woman in the head as she was walking on the street, less than a half hour later a man was shot in the back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are cold-blooded criminals, people terrorizing the community.
WYNTER: How badly do you want to catch them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very. Very badly. Every second that we're just sitting here speaking, this individual may be plotting their next target.
WYNTER (voice-over): And so police are warning people here anyone could be next.
Kareen Wynter, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Dr. Steven Pitt is a forensic psychiatrist and consultant to the Phoenix Police department. I spoke to him earlier tonight.
COOPER: Dr. Pitt, you say there are three different offenders, maybe even sets of offenders, acting independently of each other right now. How can you be so sure?
DR. STEVEN PITT, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, we can't be so sure. And that's a wonderful question. We only know what the media is -- or I'm sorry. We only know what the media is reporting, and what the media is reporting is what the police are disseminating, what the police are releasing.
But all indications are that there are two task forces working right now, about two different sets of shooters, and about one serial killer.
COOPER: I know you're a consultant to the homicide unit of the Phoenix police and you can't get real specific on these cases. What do they have in common?
PITT: Well, that's a difficult question to answer because it's really like reading tea leaves. And we don't know what they have in common. What we do know is that there's a common theme, which is they're all serial offenders, and these are people that tend to plan a little bit better, they tend to think about ways in which to evade apprehension and avoid detection and they're people that can frankly, move seamlessly move throughout the community, which therefore it goes that they're able to be as successful as they are in perpetrating their offenses.
COOPER: Are there commonalties in the people who are victimized? Or is it, whatever commonalties there are, is it more in the methods, the timing, things like that?
PITT: In the shootings that started a year ago, May, there were animals, horses and dogs involved, then more than humans. The shootings that started just this past May, it seems to be focused just on humans. And then this baseline rapist, that's an individual that I believe started perpetrating last August, first with sexual assaults and then killing his victims.
COOPER: You say the longer a serial offender remains at large, the more chances they take. Are we already starting to see that? I mean, you talk about this baseline rapist starting off first just with rapes, and then moving on to actual murder.
PITT: It's not uncommon for a serial offender to become increasingly brazen. It's very intoxicating for a serial offender to have success. The paradox is for any serial offender that with increased success, it becomes increasingly intoxicating. You also become increasingly brazen. When you become increasingly brazen, you take more risks. When you take more risks, you leave behind more clues. Clues become evidence. Evidence leads to an individual's apprehension.
COOPER: So far police have released a sketch, which we've shown some of, and a surveillance video of one of the serial offenders, they're calling the baseline rapist or the baseline killer. I mean, how do you go about trying to catch a person like this, or in the case where there are multiple offenders, multiple offenders all at once?
PITT: How you go about catching multiple serial offenders is doing just what the Phoenix Police Department is doing, which is they're setting up task forces to work on apprehending these individuals.
What the community can do is that these offenders are sons or daughters of someone, they're nieces and nephews of someone, they're coworkers of someone, they're neighbors of someone. And to the extent that people see aberrant or unusual behavior, or see things that are atypical going on in the workplace or in the neighborhood, reporting those things, reporting those observations is the best way. Those lead to tips and those tips often lead to the apprehension of these kinds of people.
COOPER: Well, let's hope that happens quickly. Dr. Steven Pitt, thanks.
PITT: My pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: On now to Los Angeles, and a violent clash over illegal immigration. It was billed as a peaceful march for border security by the minutemen this weekend. It turned into an ugly clash with between counter-demonstrators who turned out without a permit and police who tried to turn them away. One police officer was hurt, six counter- demonstrators were arrested.
Joining us now from Las Vegas, Jim Gilchrist. He's the founder of the Minuteman Project, and he attended the march this weekend.
JIM GILCHRIST, MINUTEMAN PROJECT FOUNDER: Anderson, thank you.
About 200 Minuteman Project volunteers from every race, color and creed, each of us carrying the American flag, reciting the pledge of allegiance and singing songs like "God Bless America" were required to have 250 members of Los Angeles Police Department to protect us so that we could proceed on a permitted, a legally permitted two-mile march up and back on Hollywood Boulevard Saturday.
There were 2,000 either illegal aliens or their sympathizers, none of them having an American flag. They flanked both sides of us. If it were not for police there, they probably would have killed all 200 of us. I know that sounds a little oversimplified, but probably not killed us all, but they certainly would have done some very serious bodily harm to us.
COOPER: Did you see, I mean the violence that we're looking at now, it seems largely between police and the counter-demonstrators. Did you see it, or did your march continue? I mean, did it actually stop the march?
GILCHRIST: Yes, our march stopped two or three times. We tightened up the 200 people. They were straggled out for about a quarter mile. We tightened them up so that the police could provide a better cordon around us.
This is no different than what happened to black people, in my opinion, in Selma, Alabama, 1963. They could not walk down the streets without being pummeled, have rocks and bottles thrown at them, and people try to charge into their ranks to beat them up.
COOPER: Well, gee, I mean, it is a little different, you had police protecting you, as opposed to police attacking you, which is what happened obviously to African Americans in Selma.
GILCHRIST: Correct. Yes, yes, that's true.
COOPER: Were you expecting counter-protests?
GILCHRIST: Mildly, but L.A., it's not uncommon to have more counter-protesters in Los Angeles than other areas. It's predominantly Latino, Latino community, at least two million illegal aliens reside there, and that's probably a conservative estimate.
COOPER: Where do you see this battle heading now? I mean, how do you see -- I mean, obviously I know you feel the Minuteman Project has made a lot of progress. Where do you see this battle going now?
GILCHRIST: I see it going into a stalemate between the Senate and House, with the House eventually dominating. As long as we have people like Tom Tancredo and Jim Sensenbrenner leading the charge, we will have some representation up there in D.C.
COOPER: Do you think you'll get some sort of legislation before the midterm election?
GILCHRIST: No, no, I don't think you'll see anything until after November. Despite the legislation that's going to be passed, Anderson, I doubt very much that any of it will be enforced.
The Minuteman Project wants to see results. And that's looking two years out. We're not interested in any more rhetoric from Congress. We are fed up with the stalemates of 40 years and 40 years of non-enforcement of our immigration laws.
COOPER: Jim, we appreciate you joining us, telling us about the latest...
GILCHRIST: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Tonight we know more about the alleged murders and rape in Mahmudiyah, Iraq, said to be at the hands of the U.S. soldiers, a very disturbing story. The names of the soldiers charged have now been released, announced by the military. We know even more about the victim, how young she really might have been. Earlier it was said she was a woman. It turns out she might have just been 14 years old. We'll have the latest coming up.
Plus a child scheduled for a major operation, allegedly kidnapped by his own mother. Hear why she may have done it in an unusual and very complicated case.
Plus my exclusive interview on a far lighter subject with Comedian Dave Chappelle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE CHAPPELLE, COMEDIAN: They handed me a $50 million business and everyone kind of just stepped back, like, hey big shot, how are you going to handle your business?
COOPER (voice-over): Right.
CHAPPELLE: It was almost as if they were trying to underscore their necessity. That's how I took it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The pressure, everything you wanted to know about why he left his hit show, when 360 continues.
(BEGIN BREAKING NEWS)
COOPER (on camera): Breaking news tonight in the war on terror. Al Qaeda Web sites have posted a video showing the bodies of two U.S. soldiers kidnapped and killed last month. We are not going to show you the video because we do not believe in showing terrorist propagandist. A statement, though, with the video does connect the killings to the alleged rape and murder of an Iraqi female at the hands of U.S. soldiers. There are new developments in that story as well.
Tonight, with more on all of it, we turn to CNN Senior International Correspondent Nic Robertson who joins us now from Baghdad.
Nic, what's the latest?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, this new video starts off with a message from the Mujahideen Shura Council saying we bring you this video of the two kidnapped Americans. Mujahideen Shura Council, al Qaeda affiliated. Then we see Osama bin Laden's picture and his most recent audio message, the part where he describes that Muslims get pleasure from seeing the Americans attacked in Iraq is played. And then we see the gruesome video of the butchered bodies of the two American soldiers. In the corner of the picture, a picture of former al Qaeda and Iraq Leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who's now been killed. His message is, there needs to be more attacks on Americans. But the real headline is the banner underneath the pictures where it says, we have killed these two American soldiers in revenge for the dishonoring of our sister by soldiers from the same brigade, appearing to link the killing of these two soldiers with the rape, the alleged rape of a young Iraqi woman earlier this year in March in a town of Mahmudiyah.
New details on that emerging today, announced very publicly in Baghdad. The U.S. military here seems to be at pains to show transparency as it investigates the alleged rape and murder.
(END BREAKING NEWS)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERSTON (voice-over): In Baghdad, the very public naming of U.S. soldiers accused of murder and rape.
MAJOR GENERAL WILLIAM CALDWELL, SPOKESMAN, MULTINATIONAL FORCE- IRAQ: PFC Howard, conspiracy to commit rape.
ROBERTSON: Private 1st Class Bryan Howard of Huffman, Texas; Sergeant Paul Cortez of Barstow, California; Specialist James Barker; and Private 1st Class Jesse Spielman of Chambersburg, Pennsylvania. All from the 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division, headquartered in Ft. Campbell, Kentucky. And all accused of conspiring with former Private 1st Class Steven Green in the rape and murder of a young Iraqi woman and the murder of her family.
Potentially, the most damaging crime for American interests in Iraq since U.S. soldiers humiliated Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib jail three years ago.
CALDWELL: Conspiracy to commit rape and premeditated murder, conspiracy to obstruct justice, violation of a lawful general order, premeditated murder, rape, arson, house break-in, indecent acts and obstruction of justice, all of which carry a maximum penalty of death if found -- if found guilty in a court of law of all those offenses.
ROBERTSON: A fifth soldier, Anthony Yribe of Belleview, Idaho, was charged with dereliction of duty for failure to report what happened. None of the five soldiers named in Baghdad has yet entered a plea.
In the U.S., Steven Green who was honorably discharged from the 502nd for a personality disorder has pleaded not guilty.
The U.S. military clearly trying to be very public and clear about what happened at this house near Mahmudiyah, half an hour's drive south of Baghdad.
Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri al-Malaki has already called for an independent Iraqi investigation into what happened and a review of the agreement that gives U.S. troops immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law.
And new details about the alleged rape victim, Abeer al-Janabi, could escalate the tension level even further between the Iraqi government and the U.S. military.
In court papers, the FBI lists al-Janabi as 25 years old. In Iraq, the U.S. military puts her age as 20. Now, Reuters News Agency has published pictures of al-Janabi's identity papers, showing she would have been 14 at the time of her rape and murder.
And the mayor of Mahmudiyah confirms her birthday as August 19, 1991. Which means she would have been a girl, not a young woman, potentially adding to the case against the soldiers.
While some newspapers have condemned the rape and killing, but put the information on inside pages, on the streets of Baghdad, it is not the number one topic of conversation.
COOPER: So, Nic, this new tape basically claims that these two Americans were murdered and their bodies defiled as an act of vengeance for the rape of this girl. How much of that can actually be proven? I mean it sounds an awful lot like opportunism. It doesn't seem like terrorists need a reason to kill American soldiers.
ROBERTSON: Well, it certainly does smack of opportunism. If you look at the timeline of the sequence of events here, there were several days between the soldiers' abduction and murder before it was publicly announced about the alleged rape.
The insurgents didn't choose to propagandize what they had done at that time. Why? perhaps they didn't know about it. Perhaps they really are taking this opportunistic turn here. In hindsight, knowing that these soldiers were in the same brigade as soldiers accused in this alleged rape.
And the other thing about this videotape is it's not very professionally shot. It's shaky, it moves around a lot. If you compare this to previous al Qaeda videotapes in Iraq, the most recent one, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, very steadily shot, very professionally shot. This video, for all we know, could have been purchased by al Qaeda in Iraq from a much smaller disorganized group of insurgents. There's a lot we don't know about it -- Anderson.
COOPER: Kidnapping is a business, an ugly fact of war. Nic, thanks very much.
Another ugly fact of war is murder. Murders by American service members are a fact of war sometimes.
Today the ultimate punishment, death, is rare in the military, here's the raw data. In Iraq so far, six American service members have been convicted of murder or pled guilty. In Vietnam, a much longer conflict, 122 soldiers and Marines were convicted of killing non-combatants. The last time an American soldier was executed was 45 years ago. Private 1st Class John Bennett was hanged in 1961, after being convicted of the rape and attempted murder of an 11-year-old Austrian girl.
Coming up next, if the Bush administration has its way, U.S. soldiers will not be going to war in North Korea. The president, pushing hard for diplomacy this time around. And that's got a lot of people wondering where did the cowboy swagger go? We'll investigate.
And a woman accused of kidnapping her own son. She says she just wants him to be healthy. We'll show you why doctors say she was endangering her baby's life. That and more when 360 continues.
COOPER: When it comes to North Korea's missile threat, the Bush administration looks to be taking a very different approach from the route it took with Iraq.
There was an example of that today when the U.S. supported a decision to delay a vote on sanctions for Pyongyang to allow more time for negotiations.
Now, the perceived shift in strategy is the subject of "TIME" magazine's latest cover story. I don't know if you've seen it. There it is. It says, we've reached "The End of Cowboy Diplomacy." That's how they put it. The White House, of course, sees it differently.
Ed Henry reports.
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Is the president's swagger gone? Ask at the White House, and it never existed.
TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There is no change. The idea -- was the president a cowboy when he put together the six-party talks? Was he a cowboy when he was supporting quietly the efforts of the EU-3? The answer is this is a president who has seen diplomacy as the first and most important step to take in trying to prevent people from behaving badly.
HENRY: But there's no denying the president is displaying a new, more cautious tone towards Pyongyang.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The problem with diplomacy, it takes a while to get something done. If you're acting alone, you can move quickly. When you're rallying world opinion and trying to, you know, come up with the right language at the United Nations to send a clear signal, it takes a while.
HENRY: A far cry from January 2002 when the president declared North Korea, Iraq and Iran were part of an axis of evil, and patience was the last thing on his mind.
BUSH: We'll be deliberate. Yet time is not on our side. I will not wait on events while dangers gather. I will not stand by as peril draws closer and closer.
HENRY: Tony Snow insisted there's a misperception among the president's critics. He said there is a way to be tough without waging war.
SNOW: Preemption is not merely a military doctrine, it's also diplomatic doctrine. And in this case, we are engaging in preemption at the diplomatic level.
HENRY: But Democrats charge that's just spin from a president, they say, rushed into war in Iraq, and has no choice but to trim his sails, because his standing at home and abroad has been so badly eroded.
HOWARD DEAN, DNC CHAIRMAN: Where was the president five or six years ago when North Korea was violating their obligations? He was divided because he wouldn't listen to the people who understood what was going on like Colin Powell. He was in the grip of these neoconservatives who had this bizarre world view of how things are going to work out.
HENRY: But the White House is now also taking heavy fire from the right, with Bill Crystal charging in "The Weekly Standard," that the president's foreign policy has become Clintonian, fighting words from a conservative magazine.
COOPER: I spoke with Ed Henry earlier, along with CNN's John Roberts and John Kings, part of the best political team in the business.
COOPER: John King, "TIME" magazine talks about cowboy diplomacy being dead. Is there a foreign policy doctrine for this administration?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, the Bush administration continues to insist the doctrine remains in place. As President Bush laid out just after September 11th, you're with us or against us. If you lobby to help terrorists, we will consider you to be a terrorist.
But look, the president obviously been significantly undermined in the fallout, not only in the United States, but around the world, when it comes to Iraq. He's at the table now with the French when it comes to dealing with Iran, in the European talks with Iran. And he is hung up with Russia and China when it comes to North Korea.
There is no question that this president is being much multilateralist. The administration says that's simply because he thinks it's the best option, not that he has ruled out preemption, but the simple fact is the president does not have the leverage on the world stage that he had before the Iraq war, because there was significant opposition in the world to the Iraq war and because of how it's all played out.
COOPER: John Roberts, how does the administration deflect these charges that because of a perceived failed Iraq strategy, its foreign policy has had to change?
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he keeps trying to ignore Iraq in focusing on these other issues. There's no question that there's no shortage of analysts and experts who will tell you if your first attempt at preemption goes as well as Iraq did, why would you ever want to go there again?
But the reality they have to face, though, is that in North Korea and Iran there really aren't good preemptive measures. Because if you take on North Korea, the thing that's going to happen immediately is Kim Jong-il is going to order all of those howitzers that are facing Seoul, South Korea, to open up. And it's going to do a tremendous amount of damage there.
And Iran is such a vast and mountainous country, that it would be very difficult to get a lot of American troops in there quickly.
COOPER: Ed, how is the international community greeting this changed rhetoric and I guess perspective from the White House?
HENRY: Well, there's some early positive signs from the international community in the sense that before the president actually makes it to Russia for the G8 summit this coming weekend, he's stopping in Germany. He's going to be spending a few days in the home district of Chancellor Merkel. That's something you never would have seen with the previous Leader Gerhard Schroeder.
As John King was pointing out, all of a sudden the president is sitting down with the French. Now, he's sitting down with the Germans, enjoying relationships he never had early in his presidency. That could do him some well handling issues like Iran.
But certainly back here at home, there are a lot of people raising their eyebrows about whether this is really what the president wants or what he has to do for political expediency sake, because of the fact that has been pointed out by both John Roberts and John King, the other options have not really worked -- Anderson.
COOPER: And John King, I mean, some of those raised eyebrows that Ed are talking are coming from conservatives, people who support the White House on Iraq, but are concerned about this sort of array of other problems facing the White House.
KING: There is a great deal of frustration among conservatives, especially for the group known as neoconservatives, that the muscular edge of U.S. foreign policy has been lost. Call-ins to conservative talk radios, wondering why is the president letting Vladimir Putin or the President Hu of China hold him up? Why is the president getting involved with the Europeans when it comes to Iran? Make no mistake about it, though, the administration, as Ed and John have put it, feels hampered a bit. But, Anderson, there are some who are saying let's wait until after the mid-term elections and see, when the president doesn't have to worry so much about the domestic political fallout, that he could hurt his party in the mid-term elections. Will the president then get more muscular? Some think he will. When it comes to Iran and North Korea, the go it alone options, if you will, aren't very great.
COOPER: Yes, John Roberts, how much of this has to do with Condoleezza Rice's ascendancy within not only just the State Department, but within this administration?
ROBERTS: She's definitely more of a pragmatist than some of the neocons that John King was talking about earlier. And because she has President Bush's ear at a very intimate level in terms of how long she's known him and how much of his brain she really represents, she can hold sway to some degree over Dick Cheney in terms of influencing the president.
COOPER: Ed, John and John, thanks.
Well, families torn apart tonight by the aftermath of an alleged kidnapping that triggered a nationwide Amber Alert. That infant boy disappeared from a hospital. Police say it turned out the kidnapper was his own mother. The boy is fine. We're going to hear her motive for trying to keep -- that she'll use to try to keep herself out of prison.
And on a lighter note, Comedian Dave Chappelle, highlights from my Friday conversation, plus a second interview that we did after the show. Fresh insight from a man able to walk away from a $50 million deal, when 360 continues.
COOPER: It's a case that's created a stir in Seattle. An infant was in a hospital bed waiting for what doctors say was essential, life-saving treatment, but then he was kidnapped, forcing authorities to issue a nationwide Amber Alert. Tonight the baby is safe and it's his own mother who's in trouble.
CNN's Dan Simon reports.
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Riley Rogers was born 10 months ago with kidney problems. Doctors say he needs dialysis to survive and might need a transplant within a few years.
Riley's mother is suspicious of doctors and hospitals, but not for religious reasons. She just believes in alternative natural therapies, vitamins and herbs.
TINA CARLSEN, MOTHER: I just want him to be healthy. I want him to eat good. And we eat organic. I eat according to my blood type and he's the same blood type.
SIMON: That's set up a showdown between his mother, Tina Carlsen, and Seattle's Children's Hospital.
(On camera): Carlsen's refusal to accept traditional medicine would have serious consequences. The case wound up here at a Tacoma, Washington, courthouse, where a judge made the decision to take away Riley from his mother.
(Voice-over): Riley's doctors urged the court to intervene to protect the infant.
DR. DOUG DIEKEMA, SEATTLE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: A parent should be able to make health care decisions for their children until the decision up to the point where a decision places the child at significant risk of serious harm.
SIMON: The judge put Riley in the hands of child protective services so the hospital could treat him. Before he could begin dialysis, Riley needed to have a short operation in which doctors would insert a catheter and feeding tube. That's where the case took a turn.
His mother, adamantly opposed to the surgery, came up with the plan.
(On camera): She walked into little Riley's room and stuffed him in a diaper bag. She then hit the road. As far as the police and hospital were concerned, it was a full-blown kidnapping.
Was it a kidnapping in your opinion?
CARLSEN: He's my son.
SIMON: We caught up with Carlsen for a few moments before a court appearance.
SIMON: You put him in a small diaper bag. Can you explain how that worked? What you did?
CARLSEN: I can't, not right now. Not right now. I'll tell you, it wasn't a small diaper bag, though. I can tell you that.
SIMON: Please put out an Amber Alert. Less than two days later, Carlsen was captured. The baby brought back to the hospital, Carlsen to jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have been charged by information with the crime of kidnapping in the second degree.
SIMON: Carlsen pleaded not guilty and was released. If convicted, she could face a year in prison.
Todd Rogers, the baby's father and Carlsen's ex-boyfriend, says she did it out of fear that something would go wrong in surgery.
TODD ROGERS, RILEY'S FATHER: She firmly believed in her heart that he was going to die. And she firmly believed in her heart that he didn't need surgery. SIMON: Doctors and social workers say they have no doubt Carlsen loves her baby. But what's best for him, they say, is modern medicine.
DR. RICHARD MOLTENI, SEATTLE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: I think he's leaving the hospital as healthy a child with his underlying problem that he can be.
SIMON: Carlsen will be allowed to visit Riley while supervised at least four hours a week while she fights the kidnapping charges and fights to regain the custody.
For now, Riley is living with his father, a construction worker, who says he's ready to switch jobs to parenting.
Dan Simon, CNN, Seattle.
COOPER: For more on the legal aspects of the case, I spoke earlier with CNN's Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
COOPER: So Tina Carlsen is charged with second-degree kidnapping, faces up to a year in prison. Do you think she'll get convicted?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. I mean, I think the law is pretty clear that your rights as a parent do not include the right to withhold necessary medical treatment, and you can't sort of go around the state when the state says we have to protect your child.
COOPER: And I mean, it's certainly happened before in past cases. Is that, the court's have sided on medical treatment for the child?
TOOBIN: The trend is very much towards siding with the state. And what's unusual about this case is that it's not particularly religiously oriented. I mean, most of the cases that have come up previously have been involved Christian Science families or Jehovah's Witness families who have a deep religious conviction. These people have sort of a faith in new age medicine.
But even with the religious cases, the courts in recent years have said, look, you don't have the right, essentially, to kill your child, and they take custody.
COOPER: And does a case like this have implications or repercussions for parents' rights?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, it's interesting because conservatives generally believe that parents are supreme in their authority over children. But one area they have not really succeeded is in telling states to back off when it comes to medical treatment. In fact, just the opposite, states -- even conservative states say that the rights of the child to life trump the parents' right to control their destiny.
COOPER: So, back in June Tina Carlsen kidnapped Riley, there was an Amber Alert issued. Riley was recovered within 48 hours. If he had died, though, while she had had him on the run, would she be facing manslaughter?
TOOBIN: Absolutely. I don't think she'd be facing murder charges. I mean, it wouldn't be intentionally killing her son, but certainly manslaughter, which is unintentional, negligent killing. She's on notice that this kid desperately needs medical treatment. If she withholds it intentionally, that threatens his life. That's manslaughter.
COOPER: How involved, though, does the state get? I mean, if, you know, if the medical treatment is sought out, does Tina then get to have contact with Riley? Is she still Riley's mother?
TOOBIN: It will undoubtedly be closely supervised by the Department of Social Services out there, because, you know, the irony, the sadness of these situations is often the parents love their children. This isn't really a neglect -- this isn't a hostility situation. They just have this obsession with their view of medical care. But the state has decided that that is just putting the kid in danger.
If, as we hope, he recovers and, you know, he's back to normal, I could see her getting custody again, but you can be sure they're not going to do it quickly or immediately.
COOPER: Well, a change of pace. When we come back, he is one of the kings of comedy, who's speaking out about his legendary self- imposed exile. Well, it was really only two weeks. Dave Chappelle, on why he gave up $50 million, why he flew to South Africa. Tonight, the comedian has the answers in a 360 exclusive interview.
COOPER: Well, if you missed it, Comedy Central, the television network, aired the first of what it calls "Chappelle's Shows, the Lost Episodes."
Last night the sketches were made before Dave Chappelle's famous exit from his enormously successful TV gig. He walked away from $50 million. And even now, there's still a lot of mystery about exactly why he left.
On Friday, the comedian sat down with me on an exclusive interview. Basically, called us up, said he wanted to talk. He talked about why he left, and why he had much more to say. After the program ended, he wanted to talk more, so we'll have some of the post- show interview in a moment, but first the back story. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reports say Chappelle had received $55 million.
DAVE CHAPPELLE, COMEDIAN: He ran like (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER (voice-over): Was this sketch one of last he did for "Comedy Central" a clue, a hint of what was to come? A conflicted comedy genius bearing his soul.
CHAPPELLE: I'm rich!
COOPER: Dave Chappelle supposedly had it all -- a $50 million contract from "Comedy Central," a hit TV show, best-selling DVDs. But in a move that shocked so many, he decided, well, he really didn't want any of it.
Chappelle started doing sketches for "Comedy Central" on a shoestring. They were a runaway hit with critics and audiences. His biting satire, his commentary on race and culture pushed the limits of cable TV.
CHAPPELLE: And you know they're not bad after unprotected sex with multiple partners, either.
COOPER: But in April 2005, just weeks into filming his third season, Chappelle ran from it all. Actually he flew to South Africa, where he stayed in a self-imposed exile for weeks, refusing to return or to explain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His show is on hold indefinitely. He had a $50 million deal. Amy, what's going on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, he's missing in action.
COOPER: And left wondering why would he walk away from that kind of money, and something he supposedly loved? In the months since, Chappelle has offered clues, but not necessarily answers, saying that he's at peace, not crazy, that he didn't have a breakdown, but an epiphany.
He tried to explain it to Oprah Winfrey.
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST, "OPRAH": Why did you walk away from $50 million?
CHAPPELLE: Well, I wasn't walking away from the money.
CHAPPELLE: I was walking away from the circumstances that were coming with the newfound plateau.
COOPER: Chappelle said he didn't want to be controlled for any amount of money, telling "Esquire" magazine, "I felt like I was really pressured to settle for something that I didn't necessarily feel like I wanted."
So what is Dave Chappelle doing now? Well, he's been doing his standup act around the country, also promoting his film, "Dave Chappelle's Block Party." And, he says, trying to enjoy his freedom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So where's Dave at, man?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Africa.
COOPER: But all this left "Comedy Central" sitting on an unused comedy gold mine, until Sunday, when it aired what it called the lost episodes without Dave Chappelle.
We really didn't want to do this without him, the network's president said, but we did pay for the episodes, so we might as well use them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sounds lucrative.
COOPER: Despite the good reviews of the unfinished work, Chappelle has been left with an unsettled feeling again, saying it was a bully move on the part of the network. With or without his blessing, however, "Comedy Central" says the show will go on.
COOPER (on camera): Well, Dave Chappelle joined me on Friday. We asked him to stick around after the program to talk some more. Here's that part of my exclusive interview.
COOPER: At one point you said you talked about doing the "Comedy Central" show and that you felt almost like a prostitute, I think you used the word. Describe that. What did you mean?
CHAPPELLE: Well, it was so much negativity, so much of what I felt like undue pressure. Sometimes I felt like I was being put under stress deliberately just to confuse me, just to keep me working, keep me working. And it's such a big price tag, like, you know, you're working for $50 million, so you're like, oh, my God. But at a certain point, you're like, is $50 million -- I feel miserable. And I come here every day and for what? You know what I mean?
COOPER: And it wasn't that way on the first two seasons?
CHAPPELLE: Not at all. Not at all. I think things weren't bad until the show became lucrative.
COOPER: So was -- it was pressure that the money created, basically? Something about the money and the atmosphere that that created and all the people that that attracted made it not fun?
CHAPPELLE: Right. I mean, though, again, it's part of what coming up as a celebrity is like. You got to remember I've been doing this since I was 14. I might have been like plugged in with like agents and representatives since I was like 17.
So what happens is when you have all these representatives around you, you have a lot of people doing things for you, and you get atrophy, you know, certain practical skills that people develop under normal circumstances, a guy who's been doing show business since he's 17 may not develop these skills.
And if for any reason people stop doing those things, you are overwhelmed, and I felt like, to a certain degree -- I said this in "Esquire," they handed me a $50 million business and everyone kind of just stepped back like, hey, big shot, how are you going to handle your business?
CHAPPELLE: It was almost as if they were trying to underscore their necessity. That's how I took it.
COOPER: You live on a farm in Ohio, you know, you've got a family, it doesn't seem like you're caught up in that, you know, that lifestyle, that celebrity, you know, hanging out with Lindsay Lohan or Lowen or however you pronounce her name.
CHAPPELLE: I'm very far removed from it, but I think that the -- I mean, and part of the reason is because I know the lure of it. So it's like I just don't want to be bothered by it or tempted by it. It's kind of a waste of my time. I've done it already. You know, I came up in the business, I did my 20s in show business. I hung out in Hollywood, all that good stuff. Once I had kids, got a little older, got married, you know, I got focus, that's when I was able to do a good show.
COOPER: Coming up next, part two of our exclusive interview with Dave Chappelle. He explains his trip to South Africa. He also tells me what he's been up to and what he has planned for the future. Coming up.
COOPER: As I mentioned, Dave Chappelle kind of surprised us on Friday by stopping by to talk. We began by talking about his mysterious exit from his hit "Comedy Central" show and the $50 million contract that he left behind. Surprised a lot of his fans, so did his trip to South Africa. I asked him why he decided to go there.
CHAPPELLE: It's a place where I felt safe. You know, it's like it's far away. There's no "Comedy Central" there. Nobody is going to say I'm (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to Africa. And I can kind of, I can kind of just think about...
COOPER: Did anyone, by the way, say that to you?
CHAPPELLE: No, I was kind of waiting. I would have been impressed. But I was just kind of...
CHAPPELLE: Oh, man. But I think I just wanted to -- you know, I needed a context where I cold reflect and I felt like things around me were so chaotic, like I was just overwhelmed. And I didn't tell anybody I was going, which is one of the reasons I'm so surprised it became a media story, because I still don't know who tipped the press off.
CHAPPELLE: Yes, who would tip the press off?
COOPER: You didn't even tell your wife?
CHAPPELLE: I didn't even tell my wife, so who told the media? And I'm paranoid. Dave, you're paranoid, call the press. And the funniest thing about the whole thing to me is I was only gone for two weeks. Everything I read, they acted like I bought an apartment and everything. And I was like, I was gone for two weeks, man, be cool, baby.
Yes, I wonder if I went to London or something, if it would have been as big of a deal?
COOPER: I don't think so.
CHAPPELLE: They were acting like they were mad, like it was Roots or something. Like, oh, he got back there.
COOPER: When -- and you were surprised when you came -- did you, when you were there, did you know of all the headlines here? And I mean, I know you said you didn't see them, but did you have someone call you up and said, by the way?
CHAPPELLE: Yes, that's how I found out about it. Actually, before the media storm, you know, people were calling me, like, you know, people are asking a lot of questions, Dave. You better get back. I was like, yes, whatever, like you're not going to smoke me out of my hole like that.
And then a journalist called me actually, and it was like, I just got to do a quick fact check. Do you smoke crack? I'm like what? And at first I thought he was joking. So I'm laughing. And he's like, so do you? And then I'm like, no. And then, that had never happened to me before. You know, I've never been in that space where people would be that interested in anything I do.
COOPER: Were there times when you could step back and see it happening to you and kind of watch it happening?
CHAPPELLE: Yes. It was weird. Like when the Rick James episode came out, that was like instantly like "where's the beef?" Like everywhere I went, it was like, Ah, Rick James, Rick James, which was surreal, because that was just like a day at work, and it caught on.
And then I would do stand-up shows, which I've been doing all my life, and the crowd would heckle me, man, like, just scream out catchphrases from the show. And at that point, I was like, this isn't that fun anymore.
COOPER: And what do you want to do now? I mean, you had the block party, you're doing that as the DVD, you're doing your stand-up. Is that enough for you?
CHAPPELLE: Yes and no. I mean, I'll give you an example. I went and saw this movie and I was watching the movie, and it was kind of a serious movie, but I was cracking up laughing. And it was one of those moments where I was like, man I wish I had my show, like I could do something with this. When Dick Cheney shot the guy by accident, it's like, I don't have no show anymore. You know what I mean? It's like one of those things where you feel like you could really give something.
COOPER: What did you think about Dick Cheney shooting the guy?
CHAPPELLE: No comment.
COOPER: No comment? You got a show right here.
CHAPPELLE: No Comment. It's funny in sketch form, but, you know, I mean it's...
COOPER: Would you go hunting with Dick Cheney?
CHAPPELLE: Absolutely not. I wouldn't go hunting with anybody. I have trust issues. Guns in the woods and no witnesses, I don't do that. I don't do that, you know. I keep it urban with the guns, but -- I don't know, man. You know, I enjoy making people laugh, I enjoy performing.
COOPER: Do you like where you are now? Do you like what's coming down the pike? Do you like the decisions you've made?
CHAPPELLE: Again, you got to constantly take inventory of what's important to me, because this show is vicious, man, I think for everybody.
Like, you know, you look around Hollywood and you see these aren't bad people, but it's so vicious. So, I think sometimes just by design of what it is, and it has all the things that bring human nature to the dark side, enormous money and fame and power, the things that people compete for that kind of can bring out the worst in a person.
So it's like I just, I'm kind of grateful for this perspective, like I'm seeing things that very few people get to see, and the nature of being a famous person, especially in America, you can see the very best people have to give, and sometimes you can see a real dark side in people.
COOPER: You've seen both?
CHAPPELLE: Yes. I mean, it's extreme, you know, but it's interesting.
COOPER: And it was an interesting interview. He actually showed up without a big entourage or anything on a skateboard and kind of surprised us all. That was our exclusive interview with Dave Chappelle.
On the radar tonight, laughter, namely our report on a congregation led by a minister who believes that faith literally is a laughing matter. On our blog, some smiles and a grimace or two.
A.J. in Mango, Florida, writes, "I want to say that laughter is the best medicine. True Christianity is a joyful, powerful, real experience."
Nothing funny here, says Nita in Aliso Viejo, California. "This is a counterfeit," she writes. "The Holy Spirit wants to bring genuine revival to America, but it starts with recognizing sin and repenting."
And from Lorie Ann in Buellton, California, "Having been raised a Catholic," she writes, "I don't think we will be having open mike comedy night anytime soon. But you never know."
On our blog and on the radar tonight.
We'll have more of 360, live from New York, coming up in a moment. Stay with us.
COOPER: Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," are some people just too old to drive? We drove along with an experienced pro to find out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you really go 15 miles per hour around here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Personally?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Personally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not for publication.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Take the ride tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," STARTING AT 6:00 a.m., Eastern.
That's it for us tonight.
"LARRY KING" is next. His guest, comedienne Kathy Griffin.
For all of us, good night from New York. I'll see you tomorrow.
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