Skip to main content
U.S. Edition
Search
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


 

Return to Transcripts main page

NANCY GRACE

John Mark Karr Reportedly Talks to "People" Magazine

Aired August 23, 2006 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight: JonBenet Ramsey murder suspect John Mark Karr, the clock is ticking! Karr set to touch down on a Colorado airstrip for immediate transport to a Boulder jailhouse. And tonight: Did Colorado authorities contaminate the only known DNA in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case -- can you believe it? -- possibly ruining the only hard evidence they`ve got? And more statements by suspect John Mark Karr about the night the 6-year-old beauty queen was murdered. And is it true, Karr`s own family goes for the gold, shocking book and movie deals? People, can we just do justice for JonBenet first and let her be in peace before everybody cashes in?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s been a lot of publicity on this case. He may have done it, he may not have done it. The bottom line is, if he did it, there`s going to be physical evidence that ties him to that crime scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Tonight, straight to Susan Candiotti, CNN correspondent, standing by in Boulder, Colorado. Susan, when is Karr set to leave?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that`s the question, isn`t it tonight, Nancy? Of course, we halfway expected him to appear here yesterday, but that`s not the case. Again, another rumor. Will tomorrow be the day?

As you know, they have almost two weeks, because the weekends don`t count, to get him moved out here, 10 days to two weeks, the sheriff`s office -- that`s what they`re saying, anyway -- tells me tonight. Will the move be tomorrow? I won`t confirm or deny it, says an official. And he added, We`re trying to be as discreet as possible. Well, I don`t know where things will wind up, but we are told that he will be out of view when he makes the flight here to Boulder, Colorado.

Now, next up, we want to tell you about some other new developments. We have some fresh quotes from John Karr. These will be published in "People" magazine, which will be on newsstands on Friday. In a couple of excerpts from that "People" magazine interview, first of all, John Karr was asked -- this is an interview that was conducted in Thailand. He was asked whether he was worried about a DNA match, and his words, quote, "The DNA might not match, but you can`t trust the test." That`s one quote.

He was also asked, Well, what about the alibi that your ex-wife, who apparently is no friend of yours, has apparently given you by saying that to the best of her recollection, she was never away from you or you were never away from her and the children on any Christmas, including December 1996, not for any length of time? And he said of that, quote, "It`s normal that people in a family protect you."

Now, his ex-wife, by the way -- yesterday, we got this from a statement from her lawyer, who said that she spent a lot of time with representatives of the Boulder district attorney`s office, turning over unspecified documents and photographs to help them try to put John Karr in Boulder or somewhere in December of 1996. So far, through her lawyer, she said that she was unable so far to find any photographic evidence of that but that she continues to look for it.

And finally this, Nancy. CNN has learned from a Thai official about more of what Karr said while he was in detention custody. And this was about whether he had sex with the little 6-year-old. He told an officer that he did have sex with JonBenet before she died, but in his words, "There was no penetration." And then he added, "There are so many ways to have sex." Nancy, back to you.

GRACE: So many ways to have sex with a 6-year-old girl? You know, what`s interesting to me -- out to you, Dan -- oh, Liz, let me know when you get Dan Simon hooked up.

To Ed Miller with "America`s Most Wanted." Ed, what`s amazing to me, based on what Susan Candiotti is reporting tonight -- where`s the family? Now, think about it, Ed. You`re taking the Ramsey relatives on a roller- coaster ride. You`re taking the law enforcement, district attorney, the police, everybody who knew or loved JonBenet Ramsey, on an emotional roller-coaster ride. If they have photos of him at Christmas time, if they have receipts -- I mean, you want to tell me, Ed Miller, that this guy didn`t go out and buy a fruitcake, a Christmas tree, a lightbulb at Kmart? He didn`t go to the ATM? He didn`t drive through Wendy`s one time over that Christmas holiday? No ATM, no credit card, no check, nothing, nothing? On Christmas, they can`t come up with one thing, or they won`t come up with one thing?

ED MILLER, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": You`re absolutely right. I can`t imagine the explanation, beyond the fact that they`re saying, well, they have pictures of his three kids but not of him, and if his kids are there, they`re saying, if the three children are there standing in front of the Christmas tree, Well, he must be there somewhere because he would always spend Christmas with us. It really is a very convoluted piece of evidence, if they`re trying to say that, If the children were there, he must be there, but we`re really not sure and we certainly can`t prove it. You`re absolutely right.

GRACE: OK. To Dan Simon, CNN correspondent, standing by in LA, there at the jail where Karr is ticking the hours down as he`s set to take off to a Colorado courtroom and jail cell. Dan Simon, what about the -- every day, we hear more statements, more from this guy, but it`s going to take more than just statements. The law is, a confession alone is not enough to uphold a conviction. There`s got to be more. But yet he`s still talking. And when is he leaving?

I think he`s there. Liz, what happened to Dan Simon?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I`m here, Nancy. We almost just lost a light. So I heard your question. You know, I spent, you know, several hours today calling defense attorneys in Boulder, and the buzz is, among legal circles there, is that they just don`t have the goods on John Karr. And one of the operating theories is, is that they`re keeping him here in the LA County jail until they can figure out if, in fact, they have a case. If they don`t, I`m hearing that they might just leave him here or let him go or charge him with making a false statement. That way, the district attorney is sort of able to save face by not bringing him in, if, in fact, they don`t have a case, Nancy. Be curious to hear your thoughts about that.

GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you what. It`s going to be very difficult to ignore this. Take a listen to Karr`s own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MARK KARR, RAMSEY MURDER SUSPECT: (INAUDIBLE) alone with that poor girl, that doll (INAUDIBLE) You know, she was just so incredible and alive and so (INAUDIBLE) She just (INAUDIBLE) so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s go out to Richard Herman, defense attorney. Richard, explain to us why a confession alone will not constitute a prosecution, that will be thrown out on appeal, no can do. But when you hear these words that we just got -- that`s from the taping of Wendy Hutchens. She`s a northern California resident that said she taped Karr on the phone -- we haven`t been able to verify that yet. But Richard, a confession alone won`t cut it. Why? Is Dan Simon right?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s absolutely right, Nancy. It won`t cut it at all. You need some sort of physical evidence to corroborate that. They don`t have it in this case. You`ve got to bring out that Nancy Grace whip (ph). This prosecutor in Boulder has to resign. This is outrageous, to bring this guy in from Bangkok without having done an investigation!

She has no evidence. The DNA is contaminated or degraded. The handwriting experts who are saying on TV 99 percent -- it`s outrageous.! They ought to tender their licenses. They just want to get their name in lights. And these defense attorneys in California who claim to be criminal defense attorneys, they`ve got to surrender their bar cards because they`re going to be called as witnesses at incompetency hearings.

It`s outrageous! This is a circus. And the American people just want closure here so bad that they`re buying into this. It`s garbage. This case is garbage. This guy is a farce, absolute farce!

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Jodi in Texas. Hi, Jodi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know if they`re ever going to open the investigation to the Boulder Police Department, in particular. It`s almost like someone in the department has covered up what`s going on.

GRACE: Why do you say that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s other suspects that they`ve refused to look at.

GRACE: Such as?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t remember his last name. It was on another show. It was Helgut (ph) or something and...

GRACE: Santa Claus? What`s his last name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Helgoff (ph) I think is the guy she`s talking about.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Are you talking about this Santa Claus? Yes, last name Helgoff. As a matter of fact, a friend of his was a suspect at one point, as well, the Santa Claus that had shown up at a party. Hold on. Stop everything.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A happy little family!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s an all-year process to them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s go back some.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re seeing the family that apparently can prove Karr was with them at Christmas. I don`t know what that song was at the beginning.

Straight back out to -- I guess you met the other night, Norm Early. Norm is a former district attorney in Denver and he is a spokesperson with the National District Attorneys Association. Norm, it`s great to see you, even on the airwaves.

NORM EARLY, FMR DENVER DISTRICT ATTORNEY, SPOKESMAN FOR NATIONAL DAS ASSOC.: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Norm, what is this that Jodi`s talking about, that somehow there`s been a cover-up? I don`t buy that.

EARLY: I think where she was headed was that there were a lot of individuals who were potential suspects that she`s claiming were not investigated fully by the Boulder Police Department. Everybody who was at the Ramseys` party on the 23rd, including the character known as Santa Claus and others, were fully investigated to ascertain whether or not they had any involvement in this case. Each one of them, one by one, was discarded.

As you`ll remember, Nancy, everybody has felt from the very beginning that whoever committed this crime had to either be in the Ramsey family or be very close to the Ramsey family because of their familiarity with the house, because of the fact that they felt very comfortable in the house to write a three-page ransom note, because of the remoteness of where her body was found, because of the complexity of the house, because no footprints in the snow, on and on and on. And these are the people who they concentrated on, and they did, in fact, eliminate every single one of them.

GRACE: Richard Herman just stated that the attorneys who had been counseling John Mark Karr behind bars have caused more trouble than helped whatsoever in the case, even for him. Take a listen to what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIE HARMON, ATTORNEY: My overall opinion of him is that he`s a very intelligent man, that he is a different sort of person than most of us walking around on the face of the planet, and that differentness has been construed in the media as wrong or somehow unbalanced, and I don`t find that to be true at all. I found him to be very engaging, very bright, very articulate, and very, very much appropriate in his emotional response to what`s going on.

Mr. Karr has been portrayed by the media of late as being mentally unstable, attention-seeking, unwell, mentally unwell, and he is none of those things. And he is anxious to have an opportunity to address the allegations against him, to be portrayed in a more accurate and more complete way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is attorney Jamie Harmon, who met at length with John Mark Karr behind bars but now says she is not his attorney. We will be taking a press conference from her and another attorney, Patience Van Zandt, at 8:30 sharp Eastern, when it goes down.

I want to go out to Dan Simon. Dan, I know you heard what Jamie Harmon said. She went on and on about how articulate, how well-adjusted, how appropriately emotionally this guy was acting. It sounded to me like an ad on Match.com. But didn`t she ruin any possibility of an insanity defense down the road? And is he being segregated right now under suicide watch?

SIMON: Well, to answer your first question, in terms of the insanity defense, you know, first of all, I`m not so certain she could have come up with that impression after just meeting with him for a few minutes here at the LA County jail. And ultimately, it`s going to take a mental health professional to determine whether or not he`s sane or not.

Nancy, one thing I just got on my Blackberry, and I want to read this to you. We just got this press release from the Sonoma County Sheriff`s Department. And what they`re saying is that back in 2001, they originally investigated John Karr for the murder of a 12-year-old. We`re just hearing this. They eventually cleared him of that. But when they were doing this investigation, they uncovered these various writings that had to do with Polly Klaas and JonBenet Ramsey.

And I`m going to quote this press release. It says, "In a few instances, while he seemed to be wondering about the JonBenet Ramsey murder, he made uncertain allusions to placing himself in the killer`s role. However, we never uncovered any confession statements, overt murder evidence, or other indications that John Karr possessed secret knowledge that only the murderer of JonBenet Ramsey would know."

And this is significant because there had been concerns that perhaps the authorities in northern California did not investigate John Karr for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Well, now we`re hearing that, in fact, they did.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two days before JonBenet Ramsey died, Bill McReynolds (ph) played Santa Claus at her home. His wife, Janet (ph), played Mrs. Claus. After JonBenet`s death, investigators instantly became curious about the couple.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know I didn`t do it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was Santa Bill back in February of 1997. And then investigators discovered this -- the McReynolds`s daughter had been abducted 22 years to the day before JonBenet`s death. And Janet McReynolds had written a play about a child who was molested in her basement, then murdered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was for you, Jodi in Texas. Santa Claus, Bill McReynolds, and Michael Helgoff both at one time suspects in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case.

Welcome back, everybody. The hours counting down until Karr leaves California and heads to a Boulder courtroom and a Boulder jail cell. Is he the real deal? Did he murder the 6-year-old beauty queen?

I want to go out to Lawrence Kobilinsky, a forensic scientist. Dr. Kobilinsky, the most shocking news I`ve heard today is not that John Karr is yakking again, incriminating himself even more, but that the only DNA that we believe exists in the JonBenet Ramsey case, which was found in her underwear and under her fingernails, has been contaminated by the district attorney`s office.

Now, I`ve taken a little heat describing the evidence found in her underwear and the evidence on the autopsy report. I`m specifically referring to her hymen. It`s amazing to me, Dr. Kobilinsky -- and you`ve testified in a lot of cases -- that critics would be more concerned that her hymen, as part of a sex assault case, was discussed, as opposed to the fact that the child was murdered, as if somehow discussing the autopsy report, including her hymen, is a worse fact than this baby girl`s murder.

That aside, tell us about DNA. How could the district attorney`s office ruin their own DNA?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I have heard, as you have, that the instruments used to collect this small bit of evidence -- the instruments were contaminated. Now, that does not in and of itself mean that the...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Back it up. Back it up, Kobi (ph). What do you mean, they were contaminated? Why would you remove DNA, the only DNA in the case, with a contaminated instrument? How does that happen?

KOBILINSKY: I don`t know. It`s inexcusable. It`s shocking. It`s disconcerting. But we have to remember that it depends what kind of dirt are we talking about on the instrument. If it wasn`t DNA, if it was something else, something inert, it would not have altered the profile, nor would it have added to the profile. So although it is shocking in 1996 that shouldn`t happen, but even if it did, it could be meaningless in terms of interpreting the results.

GRACE: OK, let`s break it down. Out to Jim Moret, chief correspondent "Inside Edition" and practicing lawyer. Jim, when you have, for instance, multiple rape, scientists can isolate the DNA and point straight to the various rapists. So if this DNA has been contaminated, can it still be isolated and compared to John Mark Karr? Is all lost?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": No, not necessarily, Nancy. It`s possible that you could exclude people but not necessarily include people. It depends -- and the doctor is much better versed at this than I am, but it depends on the type of contamination, whether there`s degradation, and so forth. But it`s not necessarily a lost cause.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just remember my boyfriend coming to me and saying, You`re never going to believe, John Karr offered me a million dollars for you. And I don`t know that there would have been a million dollars changing hands, but I think he was very serious in the offer that he made. He`s a very strange bird, just a little different from the crowd.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: John Mark Karr is set to leave a California jail cell and touch down in Colorado at an airstrip, immediate transport to a Colorado jail cell as he will face a first court appearance in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. But is he the real deal? This we now discover in addition to the fact that DNA has been contaminated in the JonBenet Ramsey case.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, the DNA in her underwear, what type of DNA was it? What type of DNA was under her fingernails?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, we don`t really know too much about the DNA under her fingernails because it was degraded, but we do know that people tend to scratch themselves. It may not indicate that she fought her attacker. But we do know that the DNA in the underpants apparently were two droplets of blood, one of which, again, was degraded and did not provide any information. It`s the other droplet that has provided information, and there is the presence of a male genetic profile in that specimen. And that`s the key. That is what has to be compared to John Mark Karr`s DNA.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at what is seen under a DNA microscope. It`s very difficult. I remember -- to Keith Lindsay (ph), trial attorney - - when I first started trying DNA cases, deoxyribonucleic acid, I tried to put these on in front of a jury, and when you show them what it looks like under a microscope, it looks like pictures that didn`t turn out very well, negatives of just a bunch of dots, and they don`t make any sense. After that first time, I never showed these to a jury again, Keith.

KEITH NDSAY, ATTORNEY: Well, it`s very confusing, and it is not easy to understand or interpret to the layperson as to what these various dots and stripes mean. It`s very important that the expert be able to conclusively and understandably explain to a jury exactly what these symbols mean. In fact, I agree with you, it`s kind of useless to actually visibly show the DNA samples to the jury.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re learning more about John Mark Karr`s pattern of obsessive behavior. This woman went to high school with Karr and has a shocking story about the teenager she knew. Pope says, when she was 15 and Karr was 18, that he became interested in her but she was seeing someone else.

She was shocked when Karr offered her then-boyfriend $1 million to have her for himself. The outrageous proposal is right out of a Hollywood movie. 1993`s "Indecent Proposal" had Demi Moore inspiring a million- dollar offer from Robert Redford.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have a sense that he was serious in trying to persuade your boyfriend to let you go?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, definitely. There`s John Karr doing something crazy and strange.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out live to a presser by defense attorneys Harmon and Van Zandt, who have counseled John Mark Karr. Right now we`re trying to pull up the audio. As you see, there is Jamie Harmon, Patience Van Zandt. Both of them have been counseling John Mark Karr for hours.

JAMIE HARMON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR JOHN MARK KARR: We have so informed the California and Colorado authorities. Second, and this is probably the much more interesting part, regarding the timing of Mr. Karr`s anticipated transport to Colorado, we have repeatedly attempted to learn from both the L.A. County sheriff`s department, as well as the Boulder County district attorney`s office, when Mr. Karr will be transported to Colorado.

The L.A. sheriff`s department has refused to provide any information to us at all. And quite frankly, I think the reason for that is that they don`t know.

We have also received a communication this afternoon from Boulder County, from the D.A.`s office, Pete McGwire (ph), who is one of the prosecutors involved closely with this case. And Mr. McGwire has informed us that he is, quote, "unable to share," unquote, with us any details concerning Mr. Karr`s transportation to Colorado. He also indicated that he does not expect a first appearance in Boulder for Mr. Karr sooner than next week, early next week.

It`s been very difficult to communicate with Boulder County about this case in any way, shape, or form. I`m sure most of you are finding that to be true, as well. It`s somewhat baffling for us that they won`t communicate with us. I do understand there are security concerns about his transportation. But the bottom line at this point is that they`re telling us they don`t expect him to arrive in Colorado much before early next week.

OK, and that`s it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you say your first name and spell it, both your last name, so we can get it on the record?

HARMON: Sure. My first name is Jamie. It`s spelled J-a-m-i-e. This is Patience. Her name is spelled P-a-t-i-e-n-c-e. My last name is Harmon, H-a-r-m-o-n. Hers is Van Zandt, V-a-n Z-a-n-d-t, one word.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... photographs that supposedly indicate that he was not in Colorado at the time, but was in Georgia? The family is talking about those photographs.

HARMON: I haven`t heard about those today. Is this new information?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, one of the brothers talked about it.

HARMON: Well, you should be aware if you`re not that one of the brothers has retained a talent agent to represent him. One of the brothers and the father, I believe, have retained this talent agent. And they are now attempting to put all kinds of interesting information into the media, and I don`t know how much of it is true and how much of it is not true. We haven`t received any photographs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have a retainer for your services?

HARMON: We don`t talk about that. That`s privileged information.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE) Mr. Karr himself (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: I can`t tell you why, because that would require us to disclose confidential information, but it is Mr. Karr who has hired us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE) you represented him earlier?

HARMON: Patience did.

PATIENCE VAN ZANDT, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING JOHN MARK KARR: It was I who represented him in 2001.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And your relationship?

HARMON: My relationship with him now is that I`m his lawyer, and I became his lawyer this morning. I met with him with Patience over the course of the few days we were in Los Angeles and developed a rapport with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you in communication with this person that`s supposed to be a talent agent?

HARMON: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you have no idea what they`re doing in that respect?

HARMON: Well, I have some idea what they`re doing. I don`t have to talk to him to know what they`re dog. But I haven`t spoken to him, nor do I intend to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Harmon, you had actually criticized the Sonoma County authorities for not releasing any of the taped conversations or e- mails until just recently. Can you elaborate on that?

HARMON: I did? Apparently not. I haven`t criticized the Sonoma County authorities about absolutely nothing, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE) there are some people who have been critical of the two of you and some of the statements you`ve made previous to being his -- when you were his legal adviser, such as getting on the record (OFF-MIKE) being very clear about what an intelligent, lucid person he is, the same person who made some very incriminating statements (OFF- MIKE) tie your hands (OFF-MIKE) the lawyers hands down the road when you make those kinds of statements. People have been very critical of what you two of you have been saying. How do you respond to that?

HARMON: I think there is an element out there who is critical of that, and to me that sort of criticism is ridiculous. We`re talking about a crime that occurred 10 years ago. So his state of mind as of today or yesterday, which is the time that I was referring to him, and his state of mind 10 years ago are completely different issues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we`re talking about his state of mind a few days ago when he made some very incriminating statements about himself.

HARMON: Yes, his incriminating statements were made days before I met him. And I can`t say under what circumstances those were made. I know, when I spoke to him, when we spoke to him together, his statements were very lucid and clear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE) article about you, an investigative piece, that in three cases you`ve misled clients and gave them incorrect legal advice. Some of those cases were (OFF-MIKE) now you`re going to represent a high-profile case. Can you speak to that (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: Yes, that article was -- that series of articles was to further the political agenda of a person who was running for district attorney, who has enormous animosity towards me personally, and who wanted to use that forum in order to give her animosity some exercise. And I don`t really have any further comment about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: No, I don`t admit anything about that newspaper article being in any way accurate, Lloyd. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ABC News actually found Karr`s first wife.

HARMON: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He married when he was 13. Are you going to be speaking with her? And, if so...

HARMON: I have no idea. Potentially, sure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your feeling about him marrying a 13-year- old girl?

HARMON: I don`t have any feelings about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE) what happens to that? Are you fighting any move to Colorado (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: No. His greatest wish is to get there as quickly as possible, and we want to expedite his agenda in that connection.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: We went to see him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You went to see him?

HARMON: Because of Patience`s relationship with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You say the L.A. authorities haven`t been (OFF- MIKE) forthcoming about his (OFF-MIKE) but at the same time (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: It doesn`t frustrate me so much not knowing. I do understand the position in which they`ve been placed. And they have to keep that close to the vest. They`re afraid that, if they tell us anything, that we`ll tell somebody else. I don`t know why they think that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: At this point, it seems so, yes. We`re making contact there now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: I don`t want to tell Boulder County anything. I just want them to communicate with us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t hear what you said. You said right now his greatest concern is what?

HARMON: Is expediting his trip to Colorado. He wants to get there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (OFF-MIKE) representing him? You are officially...

HARMON: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jamie, when you last saw him, could you describe how he`s faring, his state of mind, what he`s thinking? What you can share with us?

HARMON: Well, he`s completely isolated from any kind of media contact at all, so he doesn`t have any idea what`s going on in the wide world about his case or himself. And so I think that assists in allowing him to become more grounded as time goes by. I spoke with him this morning; he seemed to be doing fairly well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was your reaction to his asking you to be his attorney? Were you expecting this? Were you surprised? (OFF-MIKE)

HARMON: I don`t know that my reaction is particularly relevant. I was glad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you approached him or he approached you? How did you get involved?

HARMON: It wasn`t a question of approach. We went to see him because we were concerned about the way he was being portrayed in the media, and we wanted to encourage him to stop talking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has he agreed to that?

HARMON: Absolutely. It was a requirement of our relationship.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you expand on that?

HARMON: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much harm do you think he did to himself by talking previous to your retention?

HARMON: I really have no idea at this point. I have no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think that Boulder authorities and L.A. authorities are not recognizing you as the attorney?

HARMON: Well, they...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... this is a major development today and...

HARMON: It is a major development today because they have been unwilling to communicate with us in any sort of substantive way. They`ve provided us with some procedural information and some basic stuff about it, but they have not particularly been willing to communicate with us. And...

GRACE: You are hearing a live press conference as it closes down, with defense attorneys Jamie Harmon and Patience Van Zandt, who are now publicly stating they are representing JonBenet murder suspect John Mark Karr.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARR: JonBenet, God, what a powerful thing to just be alone with that little girl, the doll face. You know, she was just so incredible in mind and so unreal in death. She`s just so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. She`s so alive. I mean, she`s wonderful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, he may be right with a statement like that. He may even be able to overcome a DNA non-match.

Now, CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of that tape. That is from Wendy Hutchens. She claims the voice is Karr`s. When we spoke to Hutchens` rep asking to interview her for copies, they indicated they wanted monetary compensation, and we declined.

I want to go out quickly to Richard Herman. We have just brought you live a press conference from his newly announced defense team. I`ve got a couple of problems right off the bat, Richard Herman. Number one, our research says neither one of them are licensed to practice in Colorado. Number two, they have released what could be the defense. They`re saying, "Well, he wasn`t crazy when I spoke to him."

But translation: Maybe he was crazy 10 years ago. Hasn`t spoken to the guy, Larry Garrison, the producer the family has cut a deal with to tell this guy`s story, to tell Karr`s story. Doesn`t know if they`re going to talk to the first wife. I mean, of course, the Boulder D.A. is not talking with them. All along they`ve been saying they`re not his defense attorneys.

HERMAN: Nancy, not only that. They`ve probably I would venture say have never tried a criminal case in Colorado. I would also venture to say they`re not admitted in Colorado. They can get over that. They can get in pro hac vice for this particular case.

But her ineptness was just displayed to you when she says to you, "Well, the murder was committed 10 years ago, so my observations of his mental condition have no bearing whatsoever." Meanwhile, a day or two before, this is when he made his confession. Was he competent to make that confession? This is outrageous.

She wants face time on TV. That`s why she called for this press conference. They`re not going to be the lawyers when he gets moved to Colorado. And there`s also solicitation issues, solicitation. How did they just walk into his cell and say, "We want to be your lawyer"?

GRACE: To Keith Lindsay, agree or disagree? Why are these people -- you know, Keith, when you and I prosecuted together for all those years in the district attorney`s office, we were told one thing: Don`t speak to the press. Period. Doesn`t matter. Why are they doing this?

KEITH LINDSAY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I completely agree with Mr. Herman. It appears that it`s nothing more than a ploy to get publicity for them and their practices. I was also shocked that she would come forward and say that it did not matter what his state of mind was two days ago when he made his confessions.

In fact, she should be playing it the opposite way, and I would be playing it the opposite way if I were her, saying that the statements he was making are just evidence that he is a deluded individual with a fantasy obsession of JonBenet Ramsey that has led him to give these confessions for his 15 minutes of fame. That ought to be the defense.

GRACE: And when you hear that statement that he gave, it is so chilling, it is so convincing. On the other hand, to Dr. Jeff Gardere, he could have convinced himself he did it.

JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. This guy can be so delusional. Whether he did it or not, he could be so delusional that he just doesn`t know what the reality is anymore.

He can convince himself that now he`s in the time line, he`s part of that history, and now he`s just bringing in all sorts of information that he may have already read or found out about on television shows, you know, in the books, in newspapers, and has now brought that into his own reality.

GRACE: Well, it`s interesting that you would say that, because CNN`s Dan Simon just reported that this was investigated in California in 2001 and those authorities simply believed that this guy was totally fixated on JonBenet Ramsey, not that he was an actual murder suspect.

Joining us now is Linda James. She is a forensic document examiner. And contrary to many other examiners that we have heard from, she believes John Mark Karr did not write the ransom note.

Welcome, Linda. Why do you believe he did not write the letter?

LINDA JAMES, HANDWRITING EXPERT: Because there are major structural differences that cannot be reasonably explained, and we have to look at the differences as well as the similarities.

GRACE: What are the differences?

JAMES: There are the differences in the letter "e." There are the letter "m," the letter "v," as in Victor, the letter "u." Those letters, and there`s several others, that are basically structural differences between the question and the note.

GRACE: OK, let`s hold that up, Liz, just a second. With us, a respected forensic document examiner, her name is Linda James, joining us out of Dallas tonight. She says no match.

Now, I`ve got to tell you, I was hung up on the "e." The "e" doesn`t match that well. But specifically, as you were stating, the "v" and the "u." Never once did you see a tail on the "u," and the "v" is never sharp the way it is in the ransom note.

However, did you see -- can you show her the other graph, Liz? The "a" with the umbrella on the top, the teardrop "d," which is very unusual, the tail to the right on the "t," and the parallel "l`s." Those were similar.

JAMES: Well, I said there are similarities, but similarity is not identity. If you have a set of twins, at one point you`re going to have to look at the differences in order to establish one from the other. And there is differences here that we cannot ignore; we must look at those differences, even if there are similarities.

GRACE: And as of tonight, the only evidence tying him to JonBenet`s murder is this handwriting sample.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The Lung Cancer Research Foundation sponsors Strides for Life, this Sunday, 9:00 a.m. sharp Eastern, Southampton, New York. Please help the fight for research and awareness of lung cancer.

Welcome back, everybody. A lot of bombshells in the John Mark Karr case today, the suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. Let`s go out to the lines quickly, Anna in Georgia. Hi, Anna.

CALLER: Hey. Is there any evidence of how Mr. Karr knew or was acquainted with JonBenet before the murder?

GRACE: Good question. Jim Moret?

MORET: No. To be quite honest with you, that`s my problem with this entire case. The problem is, you know, it doesn`t matter whether he`s in Alabama on the night of the murder. The problem is, has he ever been here? Has he ever been to Boulder?

And so far, unless the district attorney has information that they haven`t released -- and that`s certainly they`re right; they don`t have to do so until they go to trial -- has he ever been here?

GRACE: Well, you know, Jim, you`re right. So far they have not established that he`s been in Colorado, but it`s also been said that his brother worked for JonBenet Ramsey`s father, John Ramsey. He says he knows neither one of them.

To Stacy in Colorado, hi, Stacy.

CALLER: Hey, Nancy. I was wondering whether or not he`s charged with JonBenet, with child pornography charges in California. Will he ever have to register as a sex offender, and will he still be able to teach in the states?

GRACE: Good question. Richard Herman, I don`t think he`ll have to register as a sex offender because of misdemeanor child pornography.

HERMAN: Not sure of that, Nancy. You know, in cases in New York, some cases you have to, if you make a plea disposition. And I think he`s got open charges in California. I think they will make him register in California.

GRACE: You know what, Richard? We can only pray. We`ll stay on the case, everyone.

I want to stop very quickly, everyone, to remember Army Sergeant Justin Norton, 21, Rainier, Washington. He enlisted in the Army his senior year of high school. He got both the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star. He planned to study for a degree in criminal justice. He dreamed of law enforcement. Justin Norton, American hero.

Thank you to all of our guests. Our biggest thank you, to you, for being with us, inviting us into your home. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

CNN U.S.
CNN TV E-mail Services CNN Mobile CNNAvantGo Ad Info About Us Preferences
Search
© 2007 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us. Site Map.
Offsite Icon External sites open in new window; not endorsed by CNN.com
Pipeline Icon Pay service with live and archived video. Learn more
Radio News Icon Download audio news  |  RSS Feed Add RSS headlines