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Terror & Politics; Polygamist Leader Warren Jeffs Makes First Utah Court Appearance; Secret CIA Prisons Revealed; Bush Proposed Change to Detainee Treatment; Polygamists Defend Warren Jeffs; Former Church Members Applaud Jeffs Arrest

Aired September 6, 2006 - 22:00   ET


JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
A secret in the war on terror was revealed today. It was possibly the worst-kept secret around. But, today, President Bush finally admitted it was true.


ANNOUNCER: For the first time, the president admits the CIA operates secret prisons for terror suspects.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This program has helped us to take potential mass murderers off the streets before they were able to kill.

ANNOUNCER: But Democrats ask, why is the president telling us now? They say he's selling fear for votes.

Politics and terror -- why Iraq and the war on terror could cost the Republicans the November elections.

And an army of media and high security, as Warren Jeffs faces a Utah judge. The polygamist leader prepares for trial, the young boys kicked out of his sect celebrate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he's a fraud.


ANNOUNCER: Across the country and around the world, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.

Sitting in tonight for Anderson, and reporting from the CNN studios in New York, here's John Roberts.

ROBERTS: Today, in his third recent speech on terror, President Bush confirmed what many have long suspected, that the CIA does operate secret prisons for terror suspects.

He said that 14 key terrorists have been transferred from secret CIA custody to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba -- tonight, all the angles for you on who the 14 prisoners are and why the president chose now to reveal this information. Democrats are accusing him of selling fear, with the midterm elections just two months away now. President Bush is also asking Congress to pass a new law, so prisoners at Guantanamo can be tried by military tribunals. In June, the Supreme Court declared such tribunals unconstitutional. So, how does the president plan to get around that?

And under fire today, the man most closely linked to the president's policy in Iraq, Donald Rumsfeld. The Senate began debate on a no-confidence vote on the defense secretary.

How might all of this shape the upcoming November elections? A lot of ground to cover tonight.

And CNN's Ed Henry starts us off.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen...

ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president initially insisted his series of speeches about the war on terror wouldn't be political. Well, so much for that.

In the third speech, he acknowledged, for the first time, the existence of secret CIA prisons around the world, but sought to turn that to political advantage, two months before the midterm elections, once again casting Republicans as the party that will keep America safe.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This program has helped us to take potential mass murderers off the streets, before they were able to kill.

HENRY: The president revealed that 14 senior members of al Qaeda previously in CIA custody have been transferred to the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, so they can finally be prosecuted -- among them, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, Abu Zubaydah, a field commander for Osama bin Laden, and Ramzi Binalshibh, a would-be 9/11 hijacker.

Back in June, the president had been dealt a major blow, when the Supreme Court ruled that military tribunals set up by the administration were unconstitutional. They could not be used without a legislative framework. Now the president has sent Congress legislation that he says would fix the problem. With victims of 9/11 families in the audience, the president played one of his political trump cards.

BUSH: As soon as Congress acts to authorize the military commissions I have proposed, the men our intelligence officials believe orchestrated the deaths of nearly 3,000 Americans on September the 11th, 2001, can face justice.


HENRY: Amid international outrage about the so-called black prisons, the president insisted, techniques used on the detainees were tough, but legal.

BUSH: I want to be absolutely clear with our people and the world. The United States does not torture. It's against our laws, and it's against our values. I have not authorized it, and I will not authorize it.

HENRY: And, the president claimed, the intelligence gleaned from the CIA program thwarted terror plots in the Britain, Asia, and the United States.

BUSH: Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al Qaeda and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland.

HENRY: A year ago, the president said some of these attacks were stopped. So, Democrats immediately asked why the president is saying it again now, on the eve of the election.

REP. JANE HARMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: I do think the timing is suspicious. For years, many of us have been saying, the international world has been saying, and many litigant in court have been saying that his program violates the law and the Constitution. And Congress is basically being told, either take this program, or you're coddling terrorists.


HENRY: And the president will keep the heat on Democrats tomorrow with his fourth speech, this time in Georgia. He's going to focus on security gaps that led to 9/11, and he's going to tout some controversial post-9/11 changes, such as the Patriot Act, that he says have stopped more terror attacks -- John.

ROBERTS: Ed Henry tonight for us at White House -- and, Ed, stick around, because we want to come back to you in a few minutes' time.

HENRY: Great.

ROBERTS: A lot of people are talking about the timing of the president's terror speeches. The anniversary of 9/11 is just five days away. The November elections are just two months off now.

Consider this, as well. Fifty-eight percent of Americans are opposed to the war in Iraq in a new CNN poll. And Donald Rumsfeld, the architect of the White House policy in Iraq, is under intense attack by Democrats.

With that backdrop in mind, I spoke earlier to two of the sharpest political analysts around, David Gergen and Joe Klein.


ROBERTS: David Gergen, let's start with you.

What do you make of the timing of all of this, President Bush's series of speeches, the type of material that he's gathering together? Do you think it has got a political overtone to it?

DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Well, of course it's got a political overtone.

And it's -- it's geared not only to the elections in November, but very carefully geared to the fifth anniversary of 9/11. I think that the speech today was particularly important, putting pressure on the Congress to pass legislation with regard to military tribunals, by having the 9/11 families there, and also talking about one of the masterminds of the -- the 9/11 plot, and -- and saying, he's going to be one of the first tried, very clever.

You know, they have done a lot of clever things. But this was -- I think it's -- the time timing is quite obvious.

ROBERTS: Yes, he did it in 2002, 2004 as well. Here it is back again in 2006.

It seems to be a tried-and-true formula, Joe Klein.

JOE KLEIN, COLUMNIST, "TIME": Well, we have 18 days left in the current congressional session. And the one thing he wants is to get the Democrats on the record opposed to the rules that he wants for military tribunals, so that Republicans can go out in November and say that the Democrats are weak on terrorists, like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

ROBERTS: Right. What do you -- what do you think the -- the message is here, David Gergen?

GERGEN: Well, I -- I think that the -- the president does make a persuasive case that the CIA interrogations of these people in the secret prisons that, you know, were so controversial only a few months ago, that those had been helpful to the United States, and that they may have head -- well have headed off attacks in the United States.

I think the president is on firm ground there. What is interesting, I think the political jujitsu here is to say, OK, now we have got these guys. We want to put them on trial. We need tough military rules of -- of law to -- you know, tough military tribunals to do that, and to push the Congress to do that.

But -- and to go to Joe Klein's point, but, you know, the fact is, there are major, serious Republican senators, starting with John Warner and John McCain and Lindsey Graham, who have a rival bill to what the president wants to do. I think it's going to be a lot harder to put the Democrats on the defensive, as long as Warner and McCain and Lindsey Graham hold -- hold firm for the kind of bill they have.

ROBERTS: Yes. It will be interesting to see if the president can overcome that -- that -- that hurdle.

Joe -- Joe Klein, is it significant that President Bush finally acknowledges -- or at least -- it is significant. How significant is it that President Bush finally acknowledged the existence of these CIA prisons and the type of information that he put out there today? KLEIN: Well, I think it is significant, but he didn't have much of a choice.

I spoke to a senior U.S. intelligence official today, who told me, number one, there are no longer any prisoners in CIA custody. And, number two, General Michael Hayden, the director of the CIA, met secretly today with both the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, and he told them that they were going to continue to have separate interrogation techniques. They're not going to abide by the Army field manual -- the CIA wasn't.

And Hayden laid out exactly what techniques the CIA would be using in the future. So, they're trying to make a clean break. They're trying to marshal all their forces for this legislative battle over the next -- few few weeks.

ROBERTS: David Gergen, can the president make this work by -- by tying together the war in Iraq with the war on terror, by trying to refocus attention on the war on terror, trying to raise doubts again about the Democrats' ability to be able to handle national security?

GERGEN: John, why I think this is -- he's coming from a stronger position today is that that people who have been picked up, by and large, are people associated with the -- with 9/11 and with other attacks on the United States, and not associated with Iraq.

I -- it -- it's -- it's so clear that, if he had stuck to the original game plan of going after terrorists associated with 9/11, he would have been in a very strong political position with the congressmen, with the country...


GERGEN: ... and that Iraq became the diversion.

Now he's bringing it back to this original terrorism. And I think it -- I think it is going to have some persuasive effect. His problem is going to be, as he seeks this legislation on military tribunals, in order to try these people, it's not just the Republican senators.

It's a whole series of people in the Judge Advocate General Corps, in the military who believe that -- that -- the McCain, Warner, Lindsey Graham approach is a better approach, that it's more sensible, and it will protect American soldiers who might be captured by enemies in the future. And, therefore, it's a better approach.

And, you know, if -- if the president's argument on Iraq all along has been, I'm going to leave it to the military to make the calls, there's a very strong argument, well, why doesn't he leave it to the military to figure out how to try these people?


Well, listen, we will bring you back in the next hour. We will talk more about this. (CROSSTALK)

ROBERTS: Joe Klein and David Gergen, thanks very much. We will see you soon.

GERGEN: Thank you.

ROBERTS: In his recent speeches, President Bush has been trying hard to link the war in Iraq with the war on terror. But is it a strategy that could backfire in November?

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.


CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Though a lot of voters are angry with George Bush, he's not on the ballot this year. But it's bad news for Republicans who are.

SEN. MIKE DEWINE (R), OHIO: You look good.

CROWLEY: And it is the core of Democratic strategy.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: George Bush and his acolyte, Mike DeWine, just care about the people at the very, very top.

CROWLEY: Republican Mike DeWine is the senior senator from Ohio. He struggles against a rip current which threatens to pull under Republicans nationwide. CNN and Opinion Research Corporation asked voters whether they were more or less likely to vote for pro-Bush candidates. Message: There is a price for an R after your name.

JENNIFER DUFFY, MANAGING EDITOR, "THE COOK POLITICAL REPORT": You mostly see incumbents telling voters, I will be with the president when I agree with him, but I won't be with him when -- when I don't.

REP. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: The next one?

CROWLEY: Sherrod Brown is a Democratic House member gunning for DeWine's Senate seat.

BROWN: Mike DeWine voted for the Iraq war, and I voted against the Iraq war.


CROWLEY: Ohio ranks fifth in states with the highest number of Iraq war dead, and, like the rest of the nation, has seen the downward spiral of support for the president and the Iraq war.

The president and Iraq, Republicans and the president, they are inextricably linked.

JOHN GREEN, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE, UNIVERSITY OF AKRON: You know, most Ohioans realize that Senator DeWine is not in charge of the war effort. But he's a strong supporter of the Bush administration, and many people do hold President Bush accountable for the problems in Iraq.

CROWLEY: Republicans counter the Iraq attacks with what they hope is their campaign ace card, the war against terror.

DEWINE: I voted for the Patriot Act to find and stop the terrorists. It makes a difference.


DEWINE: Sherrod Brown voted to deny these tools to our terrorist fighters.

CROWLEY: And as the president stumps the country, insisting that Iraq is part of the war on terror, he is echoed on the Republican campaign trail in word and in picture; 9/11 Mayor Rudy Giuliani has left the streets of New York for Republican hustings everywhere.

RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: We are interested in Senator DeWine being reelected all over the country, because he's someone who's a leader in the effort against terrorism.

CROWLEY: Bottom line: We are better at protecting you.

It worked for Republicans in '02 and '04. They hope it will drive their discouraged voters to the polls in '06, except that something is different now.


NARRATOR: He failed us on the Intelligence Committee before 9/11, and on weapons of mass destruction.


CROWLEY: Instead of avoiding the issue of the war on terror, Democrats are taking it on, convinced that, this time, Republican arguments won't work on a hardened electorate.


ROBERTS: Candy Crowley joins me now with the rest of our roundtable, CNN's Bill Schneider and Ed Henry at the White House, part of the best political team on television.

Candy Crowley, by linking Iraq with the war on terror, can the president get voters to ignore his bad numbers on Iraq and focus on his better poll numbers on the war on terror?

CROWLEY: You know, it might work with Republican voters, which is really what this series of speeches is about, saying to Republican voters, come on out to the polls. There's a lot at stake here. Remember, there's this war on terror.

But what -- what's interesting is that the president has argued all along, listen, these two are linked, Iraq and the war on terror. This is a front in the war on terror. And -- and, so, the worse his Iraq numbers get, the worse his numbers on the war on terror. So, it's sort of dragging him down, like a double anchor.

ROBERTS: And -- and, Bill Schneider, even his better numbers on the war on terror aren't so good anymore, particularly among women.


What we're finding is the disillusionment and anger over the war in Iraq are actually hurting his -- satisfaction with his performance in the war on terror. Right now, only 47 percent of Americans say they're satisfied with the way things are going for the United States in the war on terror. That number has never been below 50 percent. That's a new low. As you see, a majority of Americans say they're not satisfied.

That is directly linked with people's feelings about Iraq. Even if you look at only Republicans or only Democrats, there's a link between your feelings about Iraq and your satisfaction with the war on terror.

And you mentioned women. Women are interesting, because women are one constituency that does see a link between Iraq and the war on terror, but it's not helping Mr. Bush. Why? Because women are very, very opposed to the war in Iraq, and that's really hurting the president in his standing among women for the war on terror.

ROBERTS: Ed Henry, with this strategy of all of these speeches, with trying to refocus attention on the war on terror, who is President Bush reaching out to here? Is it swing voters? Is he trying to peel some of those off? Is he trying to appeal to Republicans who might be thinking about switching their vote, trying to rally the base?

Who -- who -- who is this really aimed at?

HENRY: I think he's mostly trying to get conservatives to come home, stay home.

There's a big nervousness at the White House, congressional Republicans, that, come November, a lot of Republicans, frustrated by the war -- you have started hearing more and more, not many, but some congressional Republicans, calling for a timetable to withdraw troops, etcetera, something we only heard from Democrats.

And there's a fear that Republican voters will be frustrated and will stay home. And we saw yesterday the president compare Osama bin Laden to Hitler. That was certainly ratcheting up the rhetoric. You remember, a couple years ago, he wouldn't even mention Osama bin Laden in public, and -- and the White House would say, well, that's because this war or terror is not about one person.

Well, all of a sudden, it is. And I think they're trying any number of things, because they're not working. And they're -- they're throwing various things up, hoping something will stick.

ROBERTS: It's amazing, the way things change. Candy Crowley, this -- this issue of Guantanamo Bay and the military commissions that the president is appealing to Congress to authorize for him, how does that play with voters?

CROWLEY: It -- it's really interesting, because Guantanamo, as sort of a symbol of why other countries have lost their -- their esteem for the United States, is something that voters are very aware of, that, you know, we're not looked at in a positive light overseas.

But "The L.A. Times" and Bloomberg did a poll not too long ago. I want you to look at this number, because what they found out that, despite the fact that people say, absolutely, indeed, Guantanamo hurt us overseas, look at these numbers. Nearly two-thirds of them say, but keep it open.

ROBERTS: Yes. It should stay open, yes...



ROBERTS: ... even though President Bush says, one day, he wants to close it.

CROWLEY: Exactly.


CROWLEY: Exactly.

ROBERTS: Bill Schneider, this -- this issue of the Democratic measure, a non-confidence vote on Donald Rumsfeld, is that the right way for them to counter what the president is doing?

SCHNEIDER: Well, it would have been, if the president hadn't stepped on their story.

We're supposed to be talking more about Rumsfeld. That's supposed to be the headline. But, instead, the president gave this speech tonight. What he's really doing -- Dave Gergen said this before -- is, he's refocusing the agenda on 9/11, on terrorist suspects, on Osama bin Laden, on anything but Iraq.

Rumsfeld is all about his performance in Iraq. But the president wants the remainder of this campaign season, the next two months, and certainly the remainder of this congressional section, to focus on terrorists, military tribunals, putting these terrorists on trial, to get people's minds, really, off the bad news coming out of Iraq.

ROBERTS: Ed Henry, we have talked about how the Democrats are trying to nationalize this election, big, big issues like the economy, the president's handling of foreign policy. It seems that the Republicans, as well, are trying to nationalize it with this issue of terror.

But what's the next phase in this campaign? How do Republicans get this down to the local level into those individual races?

HENRY: I think, in part, it's about scaring voters a little bit, quite frankly, with some of the rhetoric we have heard that is suggesting, essentially, that Republicans will keep you safer. That's a national issue. But people feel that right close to home, as well.

And I think we're going to see congressional Republicans, in coming days -- a very limited amount of time on Capitol Hill for votes -- they're going to focus almost everything on national security votes. I mentioned, tomorrow, the president, his next speech is going to focus on -- on tools like the Patriot Act.

And the Republicans are going to try to hammer various votes, some non-binding, but try to get Democrats to cast unpopular votes against some of these tools in the war on terror, wrap it up in a big basket, and tell voters, Democrats don't want to keep you safe.

ROBERTS: Hey, just a couple of seconds left, Candy. Do you really think the president can scare his base out to the polls?

CROWLEY: I think he can remind his base, whether or not they're scared, or simply a reminder that: Oh, yes, there's this war on terror out here. We have got to keep him there.

It's possible, but it hasn't worked so far.


ROBERTS: Well, we will see if it does this time.

Thanks, Candy Crowley here in New York, Ed Henry at the White House, Bill Schneider at our bureau in Washington -- part of the best political team on television.

As always, thanks, folks.

HENRY: Thank you.

ROBERTS: What awaits the 14 high-value terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay. Let's check the "Raw Data" for you.

About 445 detainees from approximately 34 countries are held at that the military prison known as Camp Delta. Camp Delta is divided into five sections. The 14 high-value suspects are most likely being held in Camp 5, where there are roughly a dozen eight-by-six cells on each of its four wings -- the media and visitors not permitted inside.

We have called them high-value, but who exactly are these 14 prisoners? We will investigate that in just a moment with CNN terrorism analyst and al Qaeda expert, one of the best in the business, Peter Bergen.

Plus, a close look at these prisoners' legal rights, now that they're at Guantanamo Bay -- how would their tribunals work?

And polygamist leader Warren Jeffs back in Utah and appearing in court for the first time -- we will take you there when 360 continues.


ROBERTS: Fourteen prisoners accused of some of the worst crimes the world has ever seen are now at Guantanamo Bay to possibly face military tribunals, after spending some time in secret CIA prisons. President Bush revealed that information today.

Tonight, we're going to take a close-up look at who's in that group.

And, for that, we turn to CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen, who joins me now from Kabul, Afghanistan.

Three of the top of the 14, Peter, that President Bush talked about today, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh, and Abu Zubaydah, what do we know about them? Why are they such high-value targets?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh undoubtedly qualify as high-value targets. They were the operational commanders of 9/11.

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed has been sort of a career terrorist. He was first indicted by the United States in '96 for an attempt to bring down up to a dozen airliners in Asia. He's the uncle of Ramzi Yousef, who was the mastermind of the first Trade Center attack in '93. He really was the military commander of al Qaeda.

Ramzi Binalshibh is sort of numbers -- number two, also, I -- I think, very much falling in the definition of a high-value target.

Abu Zubaydah, the third person you mentioned, I think there is some skepticism about his -- how of a high -- how high a value a target he is. He -- he was described initially as one of the main al Qaeda kind of recruiters.

I think the view, let's say, at the FBI is that Abu Zubaydah may be -- or certain people at the FBI think that Abu Zubaydah, his importance may be somewhat exaggerated -- but no doubt that these 14 people the president has mentioned are all, at a minimum, quite important, some of them really key player in al Qaeda.

ROBERTS: President Bush claimed today that intelligence gained from these detainees while they were being held at these CIA secret prisons had prevented attacks on U.S. soil, a number of attacks. Is there anything to prove that?

BERGEN: Well, I think Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, certainly, it looks like he gave up the name of a guy called Faris. Faris was an Ohio truck driver, John, you may remember, who planned -- planned to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge with a pair of gas cutters.

Now, on the surface, that seems like an absurd plot. I mean, how can you bring down the Brooklyn Bridge with a pair of gas cutters? It's just not possible. On the other hand, Faris certainly had strong links to al Qaeda, was in the United States, was driving his truck around the country. He's now in U.S. custody. And it -- it seems to me that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed certainly gave this guy up.

As to the others, certainly, they must have useful information. As you know, John, much of this was highly classified. So, I have no access to it. But I think it's -- I think it's a reasonable statement, particularly in reference to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who, after all, was the military commander of this group, and really knew where a lot of the bodies are buried.

ROBERTS: Do -- do you think, Peter, that they would have any intelligence, any information about current or ongoing operations? They have been in custody for quite a while now.

BERGEN: Yes, I'm very skeptical of that.

I mean, this -- this information is very perishable. You know, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured in late 2003. Ramzi Binalshibh was captured on the first anniversary of 9/11. Abu Zubaydah, again, several years back, was captured in Pakistan. So, of course, they don't have information about ongoing stuff. And that's true of a lot of these detainees.

You know, as soon as there's public information that they have been captured, plans are changed. People don't contact the same people they used to contact.

ROBERTS: Peter, what do you -- what do you make of this deal that the Pakistanis struck with militants in the tribal areas yesterday? Are the Pakistanis giving up here?

BERGEN: Well, I talked to a U.S. military official here, who was -- quote -- "extremely worried" about this plan, or this peace deal.

I -- I think the U.S. military position is that the Pakistani government has been doing a lot less in the tribal areas going after the militants in the last year or so. There's an election coming up in Pakistan in 2007. These military operations in the Pakistani tribal areas are not particularly popular in Pakistan.

The U.S. military view is that Musharraf has ratcheted back the pressure. This peace deal obviously ratchets back the pressure.

And, John, there will be other peace deals with other militants in these tribal regions. This is just the beginning, according to this U.S. military official. Their concern is that al Qaeda, the foreign fighters in these tribal areas, will take these peace deals as a -- as a -- sort of a -- a breathing point to kind of really regroup, assemble into larger groups, attack deeper into Afghanistan.


BERGEN: So, that's a concern, from the U.S. military perspective here in Afghanistan.

ROBERTS: Well, we do hear, certainly, from Pakistani officials today that any -- any plans for amnesty among those militants would not include people like Osama bin Laden.

Peter, we want to come back to you next hour and talk more about the resurgence of the Taliban. So, we will get back to you soon. Thanks.

President Bush's new plan calls for al Qaeda suspects to face military tribunals. But the Supreme Court says, that's unconstitutional. So, how is he going to make it happen? We will take a closer look.

And Warren Jeffs in trouble with the law -- the polygamist faces a judge and charges that he helped older men rape underage girls -- 360 next.


ROBERTS: President Bush uses hardball tactics in the war on terror. The legal ramifications -- 360 next.



BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In addition to the terrorists held at Guantanamo, a small number of suspected terrorist leaders and operatives captured during the war have been held and questioned outside the United States in a separate program operated by the Central Intelligence Agency.


ROBERTS: That was President Bush today revealing for the first time publicly that the United States government has been putting terror suspect in secret CIA prisons overseas.

Mr. Bush also proposed changes in U.S. law that would let those terror suspect be tried before military tribunals.

Joining us with a look at the legal issues involved, CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeffrey, does the fact the president acknowledged for the very first time that these prisons exist and the fact that he's going to keep using them. What are the future implications?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it was really kind of a startling disclosure if last year Dana Priest of the "Washington Post" disclosed the existence of these secret prisons, and the administration was outraged because they said it was terrible.

They launched a grand jury investigation of leaks. And here the president completely, you know, said exactly the same thing in even greater detail than in the "Washington Post" story.

I think what it says is the administration is not backing down from its prior policy, although it is interesting that he said there's no one being held in this program now, but we reserve the right to do it in the future.

ROBERTS: These commissions that he's asking Congress for, what would they look like? How would they compare to a military court of justice? How would they compare to the civilian trial?

TOOBIN: It would look a lot like a military court-martial. Military judge, military jury, lawyers on both sides, military prosecutor, military defense lawyer. Although, the detainees could get their own private lawyers if they can afford it.

The big difference, and the big sticking point when this goes to Congress, is that under the president's proposal, they can use secret evidence, evidence that the defendant can't see.

Senator McCain and Senator Warner's proposal...

ROBERTS: And Graham, as well.

TOOBIN: And Senator Graham, they don't have a secret evidence provision. And that's the big sticking point between them.

ROBERTS: The other thing the President Bush wants to do, and he couched this in language today, saying preserve national security, which was keep the evidence away from the defendant.

The other one was to use all of the evidence available, which would mean hearsay evidence, as well.

TOOBIN: And you know this sounds like a technical legal issue, but it's actually very significant. If you admit hearsay evidence, the way the trial can work is, an FBI agent who interviewed a terrorist can come testify and say, "Well, the terrorist told me A, B, C, D," and that could be the whole trial.

But if hearsay evidence is not allowed, they have to bring the terrorist into court to testify. And that's a big difference.

ROBERTS: Is hearsay allowed in a civilian court of law?

TOOBIN: Not in a civilian court, in a criminal court. In some international courts of justice, like what goes on at the Hague, they do allow some hearsay. But that's going to be -- that's a very significant thing, you know, going forward in terms of how these trials go.

ROBERTS: The president said he's also looking for legal protections for the interrogators. What's that all about?

TOOBIN: Well, I think that he's very likely to get. No one wants to see Khalid sheikh Mohammed sue somebody for his treatment.

However, one of the things to look forward to when these trials come is what -- what kind of interrogation was done of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed because our administration has acknowledged -- the president used a very delicate term. He said alternative methods. But you know, waterboarding, things that may be short of torture or may count as torture. That may be something that's quite -- that is quite embarrassing when it comes out.

But none of these tribunals are going to happen for quite some time. Congress has to pass the law. They have to be set up. So I mean, this really could be a problem for President Bush's successor more than President Bush.

ROBERTS: It could be quite a battle over the next 18 days. Jeffrey Toobin, thanks for coming along (ph).

A much different legal fight. One of the FBI's Ten Most Wanted makes his first appearance in a Utah court. Polygamist Warren Jeffs, on the run for two years, is now charged with being an accomplice to rape. But his followers, just a half an hour from his jail cell, don't even know he's there.

And tonight on 360 how Jeffs kicked out this young man from his church and his home when he was just 17 years old. He's one of hundreds of so-called lost boys. His story coming up.


ROBERTS: You're looking at a picture of John Jeffs, brother of polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs. John Jeffs was arrested in Arizona over the weekend for disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

Across the boarder in Utah, his brother, former fugitive, faces more serious charges, including allegations that he forced girls to have sex with polygamist men.

CNN's Gary Tuchman reports.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Warren Jeffs' legal journey in Utah began on TV with a judge looking at him in his jail cell and Jeffs looking back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Jeffs, you should have a copy of the charge there in front of you. Do you have that paperwork there, sir?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me, is your name spelled correctly?

JEFFS: Yes, it is.

TUCHMAN: Warren J-E-F-F-S is a well-known polygamist leader, but he was put on the FBI Ten Most Wanted list, because he's accused of serious crimes against children. Specifically, he's charged with rape as an accomplice after allegedly arranging a marriage to a girl under 18 who then had sexual relations with her husband.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know of an attorney that you want to have represent you, sir?

JEFFS: I have a -- I've got an attorney helping me find Utah counsel. I asked for a week to do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Jeffs, you'll certainly be given that opportunity.

TUCHMAN: Jeffs has not yet entered a plea industry, and his current attorney is not commenting. The judge scheduled a hearing later this month so the prosecution can present its indication and give Jeffs a chance to seek bail.

Prosecutors say if bail is granted, federal authorities will ask a judge to keep Jeff in jail on a federal fugitive charge. So are authorities confident he'll stay a prisoner?


TUCHMAN: Security in Utah has been elaborate. Jeffs was extradited from Nevada on a police helicopter that landed behind a jail where he's now staying, out of sight from outsiders as he entered the facility.

Near the courthouse, even though Jeffs wasn't even there, helmeted SWAT team members surrounded the area, even perching themselves on mountain tops.

KIRK SMITH, SHERIFF, WASHINGTON COUNTY: When you deal with religious extremists you really don't know what to expect. Our job in law enforcement is worst case scenario. And that's what we sit around and worry about all the time.

TUCHMAN: Thousands of Jeffs supporters live a half hour from the jail cell of a man they regard as the only living prophet of God. They almost never talk to outsiders. And now with Jeffs under arrest, many seem especially scared to be seen with people like us.

But 32-year-old Charles, while unhappy about seeing our cameras, did tell me this about Warren Jeffs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say he's the best man on earth. I know he is. I think some day everybody will find out. It may be after everybody is on the other side or whatever that he is the best person on the earth. I firmly believe that.

TUCHMAN: Charles tells us because Jeffs followers don't have TV or radio, he and many others did not even know Jeffs was back in the area in the local jail. As to why the church members don't normally talk to outsiders, he declared...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most of the time people are up to no good not a damn bit of good that will come from spilling my guts. So I'm just not going to spill my guts.

TUCHMAN: But Charles did toll us while Warren Jeffs may be behind bars, he still remains his leader and prophet.


ROBERTS: Gary Tuchman is with us now from St. George, Utah.

Gary, every time that the prosecutor talks about this case, he seems to be pretty enthusiastic. Do authorities believe that they've got a pretty strong case against Jeffs?

TUCHMAN: Authorities are very confident with their case, John, but they do not think it will be a cake walk. They're already talking about possible defense scenarios this future lawyer Jeffs will have.

One of them they're talking about is that the attorney may think that Jeffs did not know the girl was under 18. They think what Jeffs might say he's been religiously persecuted, and that could resonate well with the conservative jury here in Utah.

Indeed, when Jeffs was arrested, he said he was being religiously persecuted. And one other possible defense is a technical defense but it has worked in the past.

His defense attorney could say we don't know where the crime occurred in Utah or Arizona, so you can't try him here in Utah if you don't know the crime happened in Utah. That's one of the reasons that authorities in Arizona have also filed charges, and they will get a shot at him, too, after he stands trial here in Utah.

ROBERTS: Gary Tuchman for us tonight. Gary, thanks very much.

More former followers of Warren Jeffs are speaking out about his arrest, including a young man, one of the so-called lost boys. Excommunicated from Jeffs' church and kicked out of his home by Jeffs himself. He's one of hundreds.

And President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair, close comrades in the global war on terror, but their alliance comes with a big political price. A look at that when 360 continues.


ROBERTS: Warren Jeffs' arrest is being celebrated by hundreds of young men known as the lost boys. They were kicked out of the church by Warren Jeffs himself and left homeless.

Here's CNN's Dan Simon.


DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Perhaps no one was happier to see Warren Jeffs arrested than this young man.


SIMON: Ironic since Don Fischer grew up respecting Warren Jeffs.

FISCHER: So I thought he was a good man. I never -- I never had a bad impression of him.

SIMON: He bought in into Jeffs' philosophies and predictions, like when he announced the world would come to an end in the year 2000.

FISCHER: Then after the lord cleans the earth and wipes all the sin off of it then he's going to set us back down on the earth and we're going to rebuild Zion. And I believed it.

SIMON: Fischer may have been a loyal follower, but that didn't stop Jeffs from kicking him out of Colorado City and excommunicating him from the FLDS Church. That was four years ago, and he says it will never make sense to him.

FISCHER: My older brother gave a necklace to one of our stepsisters. And so I got kicked out, because I knew about it and I didn't tell on him.

SIMON: Just 17 at the time without a high school diploma, Fischer became one of the lost boys, a homeless teenager sealed off from most of his 33 brothers and sisters, three mothers and father. Fischer says that's when he realized the truth about Warren Jeffs.

FISCHER: I was brainwashed by him.

SIMON (on camera): Fischer had company. After finding his way here to St. George, Utah, about an hour's drive west of Colorado City, he met up with dozens of former members in the same situation. It's believed there are as many as 400 lost boys throughout the southwest.

(voice-over) Fischer, along with five other lost boys, filed this lawsuit against Jeffs in 2004, alleging they were expelled to eliminate competition for wives.

GREG HOOLE, FISCHER'S ATTORNEY: You have to do something to weed out the boys in order to have enough girls to practice plural marriage.

SIMON: Fischer says there's no such thing as a lost girl.

FISCHER: And I know of dozens of girls that have left, and they're always still to this day, they leave an open door for them.

SIMON: He says the suit isn't about money but about trying to prevent other families from being pulled apart. Jeffs has yet to respond.

Today, like many other lost boys, he makes his living in construction, a skill learned at an early age. Colorado City residents typically build their own homes.

Fischer hopes Warren Jeffs' home...

FISCHER: I think he needs to pay for what he's done.

SIMON: ... remains behind bars.


ROBERTS: Dan Simon is also in St. George, Utah, live with us tonight.

And Dan, with Jeffs in custody, is the lost boys' lawsuit going to pick up steam?

SIMON: Well, they certainly hope so. They want to be able to face Warren Jeff in court, but it's been kind of tough to do that when you have a fugitive on the run. They understand right now that priorities are with the criminal cases, but they're hoping that once those are wrapped up, they get to have their day in court with Warren Jeffs, as well. But they're probably looking at a couple of years, John.

ROBERTS: There's just so many aspects to this case. Dan Simon, thanks very much.

Across the country from the Warren Jeffs drama, someone named Florence seems worth keeping an eye on. Tropical Storm Florence, that is. Forecasters say it could become the worst hurricane so far this season. We're going to have the latest for you on that.

And paying to clean up Katrina. Billions of your tax dollars are at stake. But the government's books are a mess. We're keeping them honest when 360 continues.


ROBERTS: This just into 360. New developments in the Marion Jones doping story. The Associated Press is reporting tonight that a back-up drug test for the five-time Olympic champion came back negative, clearing her of doping allegations.

The 30-year-old sprinter tested positive for the banned substance EPO, a blood booster, in June and withdrew from a meet in Switzerland last month. Jones had maintained that she has never taken performance-enhancing drugs, and this latest test would seem to confirm what she said.

Coming up, "The Shot of the Day". And this one really lives up to its name. You're going to want to see it. First, though, Erica Hill from Headline News joins us with a "360 Bulletin".

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, John, a big move in the works. Tomorrow the Iraqi government is expected to take back control of its air and naval forces and an army division. The ceremony was supposed to happen on Saturday, but it was put on hold because of technical concerns and other issues.

Despite the progress there, the killings do continue. Thirty- four bodies found in Baghdad today. And at least 12 Iraqis died in attacks across the country.

In the Atlantic Ocean, Tropical Storm Florence is on the move. Forecasters say it could become a powerful Category Three hurricane by Sunday with winds of 115 miles an hour. That would actually make it the season's strongest hurricane yet. At this point, though, forecasters don't expect that storm will be a threat to the U.S. Meantime, in Florida, not the weather but problems with the fuel cell that have delayed the launch of Space Shuttle Atlantis. NASA is working on the problem. The launch, though, is on hold at least until Friday.

And in Kentucky, a fugitive son finally getting a kidney transplant. Now you might remember Destin Perkins. We've been following his story since January when his dad went on the lamb after he was let out of jail to donate a kidney to Destin. Dad is still MIA. He's also on the U.S. Marshals' most wanted list. Destin, though, we're happy to report, is feeling better after getting a kidney from an anonymous donor in California, John.

ROBERTS: What a bizarre story. I'll tell you, there's going to be no love lost between those two if they ever see each other again.


ROBERTS: But if they ever find dad I'm sure he's going directly back to jail.

HILL: I think there's a good chance of that, yes.

ROBERTS: Hey, Erica, check out our "Shot of the Day". And boy, is it a shot. Take it -- look at that.


ROBERTS: According to XETV, the man in the brown jacket attacked investigative reporter John Mattes in La Jolla, California, yesterday. The television station says the man and his wife had been making threats against the reporter for weeks. The two of them had been the subject of one of Mattes' ongoing investigations.

HILL: Look at his face there.

ROBERTS: I know. Looks like he took a couple of kicks right to the eye there.

The couple eventually, after the fracas was over, was led away from the scene in handcuffs. As for the reporter, it was a bloody beating. He was taken to an emergency room and later released.

HILL: My goodness.

ROBERTS: Which just goes to show we do live in dangerous times here in the journalistic world.

HILL: And people, too (ph).

ROBERTS: Thanks, Erica. We'll see you soon.

HILL: Thanks, John.

ROBERTS: Now if you're looking to make a cool casual fashion statement, Erica's back with a look at what's on the rise. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILL (voice-over): "I Shower Naked", that's just one of the more than 500 winning designs by Threadless, an innovative online T-shirt competition.

JACK NICKELL, PRESIDENT: Anybody can come to the web site and submit their design, and then it gets scored by the general public. And we choose about six to ten prints every week. The winning designers receive $2,000 in cash and prizes.

HILL: Threadless is the brain child of web developers Jake Nickell and Jacob DeHart. The pair came up with the idea six years ago after Nickell won a T-shirt design competition for an event in London.

Today, the company receives around 1,400 designs submissions every week. And sales prove success fits the two Jakes to a tee.

JACOB DEHART, VICE PRESIDENT: In 2005, we sold about $6.2 million worth of shirts. And this year, we're looking toward $18.5 million sales.

JEFFREY KALMIKOFF, CREATIVE DIRECTOR: It's interesting that we've been able to grow the way that we have with zero advertising. We spoke at MIT last year and one of the graduates polled us said every single thing we've done was what he was taught would fail.

HILL: So much for business school. College dropouts Nickell and DeHart have come up with a low-cost, high involvement business formula. In fact, they have another related line called Naked and Angry, where customer designed patterns are made into products like ties and wallpaper.


ROBERTS: He's the man that the Democrats love to hate and today they did something about him. Coming up, their push for a vote of no confidence in Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Is it a legitimate effort or just a campaign stunt? We're covering all angles.

Plus, a woman's fight to live. Now a stranger tried to help -- or how a stranger tried to help and the web site that brought them together, ahead on 360.



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