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NANCY GRACE

33 Dead, 29 Injured in Virginia Tech Shooting Rampage

Aired April 16, 2007 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight, 33 dead, 29 injured. massacre at Virginia Tech, the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history. A state of emergency declared. We are live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragic, tragic event. I can`t express how much sorrow I feel for the families and everyone involved in this incident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is now confirmed that we have 31 deaths from the Norris Hall, including the gunman. Fifteen other victims are being treated at local hospitals. There are two confirmed deaths in the shooting at the Ambler Johnston dormitory, in addition to the 31 at Norris Hall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At about 7:15 this morning, a 911 call came to the university police department concerning an event in West Ambler Johnston Hall. There were multiple shooting victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard some loud banging. We wasn`t sure -- we weren`t sure if it was construction or not (INAUDIBLE) people screaming. So everybody in the class huddled in the back. And we were going to go out the front door, and someone opened the door and it sounded like the shots were being fired down the hallway, so we all jumped out of the window.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing I saw is when the policemen started taking their guns out. Then I knew that this was serious. I really didn`t hear anything about (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was actually (INAUDIBLE) Norris. I had a class there. (INAUDIBLE) computer lab at Randolph. One of my friends came back in and said that (INAUDIBLE) Our adviser told us to go back into our classrooms (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The university is shocked, and indeed horrified, that this could befall us. I want to extend my deepest and most sincere and profound sympathy to the families of these victims, which include our students.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace. Nancy is in the field and will be joining us shortly. We are very sad to say we are talking about the worst mass murder shooting in U.S. history. We`re talking about 33 people dead, including the gunman. We`re talking about 29 people injured, some critically, spread out across four area hospitals. And so many unanswered questions tonight.

Let`s start by going straight out to Tim Martin, anchor at WFIR talk radio. Tim, thank you for joining us. Paint a picture, starting with the 911 call this morning, of what exactly went down at Virginia Tech.

TIM MARTIN, WFIR TALK RADIO: At around 7:15, the 911 call came in, gunshots being heard. Police responded to the scene. They locked down the West Ambler Johnston building. At that point, they thought they had the situation under control. That building was locked down. They thought the gunman had left, possibly even out of the state. Then two hours later, more calls, this time Norris Hall. Police responded to the scene, and they found a lot of people dead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to go to Mike Brooks right now, former D.C. police, who also served on the FBI terrorism task force. The big question right now, Mike Brooks, why didn`t they shut down the entire campus after the initial shooting at the dorm? Why were classes allowed to continue?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Jane, we heard from the police chief earlier today. We`ve heard from him a number of times. In fact, there`s a news conference going on as we speak. But earlier today, he said that they thought the shooting in the dorm was just an isolated incident, it was a domestic situation, if you will, and that there was no other danger to the students. And that`s probably why they didn`t shut it down.

But I`ll tell you, Jane, I`ve been down to that campus before. It`s a very sprawling campus. And it`s OK -- it`s easy to shut down a building, but as you see in this graphic, it`s very, very hard to shut down the whole campus. But you know, they`re going to be taking a look at the notification system also because some of the students were complaining that, apparently, they weren`t notified of the initial shooting until some time later.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s absolutely right. We have several students with us tonight by phone. David Covucci, who is a senior at Virginia Tech. First of all, our hearts go out to you here at the NANCY GRACE show. This fills us with horror to have to even discuss. We are all depressed and disgusted by this story. Which thank you during this time, obviously, pain and anguish for you, that you`ve taken the time to join us. So thank you there. David...

DAVID COVUCCI, SENIOR AT VA TECH: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... tell us about this whole notification system because a lot of the students had expressed some concern that they weren`t notified earlier. The initial 911 call comes in at 7:15 AM, and the first e-mail notification, I understand, was approximately 9:26 AM?

COVUCCI: Well, I don`t think you can blame the school at all. They were doing everything to investigate it. Like you said earlier, they thought it was an isolated incident, and as soon as they knew what happened, they e-mailed us right away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there was a bit of a delay. I mean, the 911 call came in. Michael Cardoza -- who`s a defense attorney and also contributing author to "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt." Michael, the 911 call came in at 7:15 AM. Authorities rushed to the dorm. They find two people dead, a man and a woman. They start doing interviews, securing the crime scene, doing everything they should, and they locked down that dorm. The question is, some are saying they should have locked down the entire university, which is more than 100 buildings, more than 25,000 people all told, spread out over many, many, many acres.

MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I`ve got to tell you, hindsight is always 20/20. In this particular case, as has been reported, they thought it was an isolated incident. They used their reasonable good judgment in saying -- and coming to that conclusion vis-a-vis shutting down an entire campus.

Now, certainly, one can criticize, one can look for a scapegoat here and point to, as I`m sure a lot of people will, to the university. Should they have shut it down? In light of all the facts, looking at it from this end, of course they should have. But at the time, armed with the facts that they had, they made a reasonable decision, in their opinion. So we could talk about this.

And you know what really scares me is I understand the emotion. And as with all our hearts go out to the victims` families, to the victims. I mean, this is, as everybody said, really tragic. But I don`t think we should be looking for a scapegoat and be looking to point to the university quite yet. Let`s get all the facts. Let`s get everything in. Let`s see what maybe they should have done. But I don`t think that they did the wrong thing in this particular case, but for the hindsight.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t disagree with you. I absolutely think we shouldn`t be pointing the finger. We`re just asking questions. Let`s hear now from the president...

CARDOZA: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... of Virginia Tech.

CARDOZA: And I think we should ask questions.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The president of Virginia Tech. All right, we`re going to get to that sound bite in just a second. But you know, Michael Cardoza raised a lot of good questions and tells us to proceed with caution, and we certainly want to. But let`s go back to Tim Martin, anchor at WFIR talk radio about some of the big questions.

I was absolutely startled, and I think a lot of people were, that the police in their initial news conference said they weren`t really sure that these two shootings were connected. What can you tell us about that?

MARTIN: That`s exactly right. That -- really, we all looked at each other sitting in that room and were really kind of dumbfounded at that statement because it was a little different than what the press release said. But what they`re saying is they don`t really find the connection between the two shootings. They don`t know why the gunman would shoot two people in a residential dorm, and then two hours later, shoot, you know, 30-plus people in Norris Hall.

They have not connected that. But they do believe that it is just one gunman and that he`s dead. There`s not -- you know, from what we understand, there`s not another gunman on the loose. They`re just trying to piece together the puzzle as to where the connection is between the two.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now we do have that sound bite with the president of Virginia Tech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES STEGER, VIRGINIA TECH PRESIDENT: At 7:15 AM, Virginia Tech police received a 911 call to respond to a dormitory room at West Ambler Johnston residence hall. Within minutes, Virginia Tech police and the Virginia Tech rescue squad responded to find two gunshot victims, a male and female, inside a dormitory room within the hall. The residence hall was immediately secured by the Virginia Tech police department, and students within the hall were notified and asked to remain in their rooms for their safety.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is now confirmed that we have 31 deaths from the Norris Hall, including the gunman. Fifteen other victims are being treated at local hospitals in the Roanoke and New River Valleys. There are two confirmed deaths from the shooting in Ambler Johnston dormitory, in addition to the 31 at Norris Hall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is mind-bogglingly horrific, and it`s hard to really absorb the numbers. Every number stands for a human being who lost their life or was terribly injured.

Let`s talk a little bit about the injuries. We have Dr. Marty MacKary, who is a physician at Johns Hopkins University. Thank you for joining us, Doctor. We understand 29 people were injured. I know some people threw themselves out of windows, trying to get out of the way of this horrific rampage. Others were shot. Some are critical. They were spread out over four area hospitals. And we understand they couldn`t use the helicopters because of the bad wind conditions. What can you tell us about the challenges these hospitals face right now?

DR. MARTY MACKARY, PHYSICIAN, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Well, the main challenge is to sort of figure out what`s going on and to triage patients, and that can be very difficult. Certainly, here in Washington, D.C., at the time of the 9/11 disaster here at the Pentagon, we went through the same thing. Hospitals are actually remarkably versatile in that they can mobilize rooms and staff. Staff stay late, they come in from home in these sort of situations, and hospitals can be very versatile.

But Jane, I think more importantly here, we`re seeing younger and younger kids use firearms. And in this situation, it sounds like an automatic or semi-automatic weapon must have been used.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, there`s a lot of speculation and reports coming in about which weapons were used. Some people are saying that it was two weapons. We`re going to hold off until we get it from authorities exactly which weapons were used. But obviously, it appears to be some sort of semi-automatic that would allow him to shoot over and over again and reload quickly because this didn`t happen over hours, this happened very, very quickly.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Obviously, this has touched the entire nation, and we are all sick over it. Becky in Georgia. Thank you, ma`am. What is your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. My question is why they didn`t shut down the campus, or at least warn the students, since they still hadn`t apprehended the shooter at the dorm?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s a question everybody is asking. And again, we`re trying not to point the finger, but we do have the obligation to ask some of the tough questions.

Let`s go to Josh Ehlers. He is a student who lives in the West AJ dorm, which I believe was one of the dorms affected in this entire crisis. Can you hear us, Josh?

JOSH EHLERS, VA TECH STUDENT, LIVES AT DORM WHERE SHOOTINGS OCCURRED: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, Josh, speak up a little bit because it`s obviously very, very noisy and windy. But tell us a little bit about security at the dorm where the initial shootings took place. Can anybody just walk in, or do you have to have a security card?

EHLERS: No. From 10:00 PM to 10:00 AM every day, the building`s locked down and only residents can enter using a VT swipe card.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you say from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM. It was 7:00 AM or thereabouts, 7:15, when the 911 call came in. So was this suspect able to just walk in?

EHLERS: It`s possible to follow another student in, into his building and just go through the door right after him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me go to Jana Zehner, who is with the American Red Cross at the VA Tech campus. I want to ask you because sort of the big drumbeat of question is, why didn`t they shut down the entire campus? And I was listening to the university president talk, and he says this is like shutting down an entire city. It`s not as easy as you might think. You can`t just snap your fingers and shut down a campus where you have 25,000 people, about 14,000 of whom don`t even live on campus, who are streaming in as this crisis breaks.

JANA ZEHNER, AMERICAN RED CROSS AT VA TECH CAMPUS: I`m sorry, I`m having a little difficulty hearing you. I think you asked a question regarding the security of the campus and why they didn`t shut it down?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right.

ZEHNER: OK. In terms of security here on Virginia Tech campus, it`s something I`m not really familiar with or really able to speak about at the time. I can talk more about Red Cross services that have been offered since the event. And I know that our Red Cross chapter here works closely with Virginia Tech all throughout the year to make sure that if there`s every any kind of incident on campus, we`re prepared to help out and work in conjunction with them for the services need.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, David Covucci, you are a senior at Virginia Tech. Let`s talk a little bit about this whole issue about why the campus wasn`t shut down. The president said, Hey, it`s not so easy. You`ve got more than 100 buildings. You know, this is not an easy thing to accomplish.

All right, I`m going to direct that to Tim Martin, WFIR talk radio. Tim?

MARTIN: Well, that`s what police are saying. And what they thought happened was, they thought they had the situation under control. They locked down that building, and from all the information that they had gathered at the time, from what they`re telling us is, they thought it was an isolated domestic incident and that there wasn`t -- you know, they had everything under control. They even thought at one point that the gunman had possibly left the state. Obviously, he hadn`t. Obviously, the fact that there wasn`t a gunman in custody before they put the whole campus on lockdown raises a lot of questions right now. And it`s really some questions that Virginia Tech`s going to have to answer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had initially heard there was a shooting in West Ambler Johnston. And after hearing that, I decided it would probably be a good idea to head back to my dormitory. And at that time, I saw all the (INAUDIBLE) Ambler Johnston and head towards the drill field. On my way walking back, I heard the gunshots across from the drill field at Norris and decided I needed to get out of there. So I ran to my dorm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight out of Virginia, 33 dead, 29 injured, massacre at Virginia Tech. We are live, correspondents in the field to bring you the very latest.

Straight out to Tim Martin with WFIR talk radio. Tim, I still don`t understand how the first shooting happens at 7:15 AM, and then two full hours go by, and the alarm still hasn`t gone off two hours later.

MARTIN: It`s a question that we have asked the Blacksburg police. We`ve asked the Virginia Tech president. And they`re just really sticking to their guns. They say, We thought it was an isolated incident. We thought we had everything under control. And you know, they basically made it sound like if they did it again, they`d do it the same way.

But you know, the facts and the truth of the matter is they didn`t have everything under control and the gunman was still on the loose. And you know, they are really going to have to answer a lot of questions, and a lot of hard questions, about how all this transpired.

GRACE: Well, Tim, back to you. Tim is with us from WFIR talk radio. Tim, how far apart were the two shooting locations? It`s my understanding this guy had a long way to walk. He could have easily been stopped, but no one stopped him.

MARTIN: It was all the way across campus, on the other side of campus, I`m being told, you know, probably half a mile away. And I mean, you know, and you`re exactly right. In two hours, he obviously had to go from the dorm to Norris Hall, and he was obviously taking with him at least one gun.

GRACE: Right.

MARTIN: So you know, he was clearly visible, if someone was looking.

GRACE: We are live on the scene there in Virginia, one of the big -- the biggest massacres in U.S. history, 33 dead. Out to you, Mike Brooks. Another thing that I learned is that some of these doors were chained from the outside.

BROOKS: Actually, Nancy, just at a press conference a short time ago, the police chief was saying that, apparently, he had barricaded the door of the building, of Norris Hall. When the officers first arrived there, they were barricaded. They went ahead and breached the door. They heard gunshots coming from the second floor. They went up to the second floor. As they approached the second floor, the gunshots stopped. He apparently took his own life.

And Nancy, right before we came on air, I spoke with a law enforcement source close to the investigation, who tells me that there were two guns that were recovered at the scene, one a 9-millimeter handgun and also a 22- caliber handgun. Both of these weapons are being sent to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives lab in Maryland for ballistics. And that`s why they`re waiting to say whether or not the two incidents are linked. They are going to -- they`ll know shortly from ballistics from both scenes whether or not it was just one gunman or not.

GRACE: Very quickly back to you Tim Martin with WFIR talk radio. The fact that the two are allegedly not related is absurd. But that -- beyond that, what`s also interesting is this shooter apparently was wearing a bulletproof vest. What do we know of any connection this young guy had to the university, had to the college?

MARTIN: Absolutely no connection yet. Virginia Tech authorities are not saying a single word about him. Obviously, we have heard rumors from students, and the most consistent rumor that I have heard is that it was a young man, Asian, in his 20s, low 20s. That`s all we know now. Virginia Tech is keeping a tight lip on this one.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were having class, and all of a sudden, we had e-mails saying, like, there was a shooting on campus. Right after we got that e-mail, we heard five shots on campus. And we could hear the emergency speaker system. We all got down underneath the desks and moved away from the windows.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in tonight for Nancy Grace, who is in the field and will be joining us again shortly. Again, the worst mass murder shooting in U.S. history, and the scene Virginia Tech university. We`re talking 33 people dead, including the gunman, 29 people injured, some of them critically, spread out over four area hospitals. Many unanswered questions.

Tim Martin, anchor of WFIR talk radio, how is it possible at this late hour, they can`t decide whether or not this is the same gunman in these two shootings, when they`re still not looking for another gunman?

MARTIN: That`s exactly right. You know, I think they`re trying to just make sure they give us the right information. But the fact is, if they were concerned, if there was another shooter on the loose, we would all know about it right now. So I think it`s just a matter of time before they connect these two shootings and link them up as one.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And David Covucci, very briefly, is the mood on campus bitter, or is it simply just overwhelmed with grief?

COVUCCI: I think it`s incomprehensible. I don`t think anyone has really been able to understand what happened. The scale is so great that no one really knows what to think.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact is (INAUDIBLE) don`t actually wait for the SWAT team to get there, which is why a lot of the SWAT teams actually trickled down to the university police and to the actual metro police department throughout the country.

Thousands of (INAUDIBLE) have received training, and the moment (INAUDIBLE) simply get their vests on, grab their long rifles, which most of these officers actually have in their cars now, because they were so outgunned as a result of that North Hollywood shootout and then again because of Columbine.

And what we have now are cops who are trained to do the exact opposite of what they initially did at Columbine, which is the moment they hear the shooting or the moment they get the report, no matter how many buildings it is, they go right inside the building and they go and find and neutralize the threat. The job now is to (INAUDIBLE) until the shooting stops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in tonight for Nancy Grace, who is in the field and will be joining us shortly. We`re talking about the surreal horror at Virginia Tech University: 33 dead, 29 approximately injured, and some of them critically. And, of course, for the parents of the students, this is a nightmare of unimaginable proportions.

We have with us Kathryn Beard on the phone. She is a professor at Virginia Tech, as well as the mother of a Virginia Tech student.

Thank you for joining us, ma`am. And our hearts go out to you and the entire faculty and the student body. Tell us how you learned of this crisis that was unfolding this morning. How did you sort of join in on this horror story?

KATHRYN BEARD, PROFESSOR, VIRGINIA TECH: I was driving up to the university to my office when my husband called to notify me that the campus had a situation and was locking down and that nobody was allowed to come on campus. So I turned around and went back home and then learned my information the way the rest of the nation did, by watching CNN and our local news channel.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you learn that your daughter was OK? I mean, what was the panic there, if any?

BEARD: Oh, it was a huge panic. You know, as I`m driving, the silence in the car when I was trying to reach my daughter by phone, and the only audible sounds you hear are the pounding in your chest from being a parent and then her not answering on the other end of the phone, just, you know, overwhelms you with fear and uncertainty as to her situation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I know there was a news conference going on as we speak, so information is fluid. It is changing by the moment. But earlier today, certainly a lot of the parents -- I mean, there`s 25,000 students -- and a lot of the parents may still be wondering if among the 33, or the 32, because one of the dead is the gunman himself, could be their loved one.

BEARD: A very, very impossible situation to deal with, and we are urging the students to call home as soon as they can. Our lines here have been blocked a little bit because of all the volume of phone calls coming in and going out. And a number of times, even after I knew my daughter was safe and I was still trying to reach her to touch base with her, she was in a lockdown situation, could not get through because of the volume of phones on the cell phone that worked.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we understand we also have your daughter with us tonight. Madison Van Duyne, am I producing your name correctly, Madison?

MADISON VAN DUYNE, SOPHOMORE, VIRGINIA TECH: Van Duyne.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Van Duyne, OK. Thank you for joining us. This must have been just indescribable. What did you go through today? I understand you were in lockdown?

VAN DUYNE: I was in lockdown. I went to my 9:00 class. And during my 9:00 class, someone came in to inform us of the situation that was happening outside and told us that we would be on lockdown for a little while. So lucky for me, I was actually in a media room, so I had the convenience of computers right there at our fingertips.

So the students and I were allowed to look at these computers and see what was going on outside of the campus. We were asked to stay away from all windows, turn off the lights. Many of the students were hiding under desks. And I know it was just a very intense, very scary feeling.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Madison, thank you for that. We are now going to go to Nancy Grace, who is covering the story in the field -- Nancy?

NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Jane, thank you. Everyone, we`re having satellite problems. We are live in the field with the biggest shooting in U.S. history, 33 dead, 29 wounded. I want to go back to the student that was just speaking, Madison Van Duyne, a sophomore there at Virginia Tech.

Madison, as you were hidden away in that room and your only connection to the outside world being your computer, what was going through your mind?

VAN DUYNE: I think I was just feeling awful for the students that had gone through this situation, and my condolences and prayers were going out to the family members. I felt very safe in the lockdown, because I felt that my teacher was doing a fantastic job of keeping us very secure, and the school was doing an excellent job of informing us on what was going on. So I didn`t feel scared; I just was feeling extremely bad for the other students that had to go through this incident.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... ask you this question, Madison. There has been this criticism that there was a delay in sending out e-mails to the students or in some other way informing them that there was this crisis on campus. The initial 911 call came in at 7:15 a.m. The e-mails to the students reportedly started at 9:26.

Do you have a handheld device? Were you able to get that 9:26 e-mail? And what`s your reaction to this sort of questioning about why this campus was not informed sooner?

VAN DUYNE: Well, I was actually in class when all of this was going on. I was in class at 9:00 a.m., so I did not receive that e-mail, because I was in class. But I feel like the university did an excellent job of trying to inform us students.

They did send us, you know, numerous e-mails after that. They did post on the Web site the situation that was going on. They had someone sent to each classroom to inform us of the situation and that we were not allowed to leave the classroom, but we should stay in lockdown for our own safety. So I feel like the university did handle the situation very well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you said you were going to a class at 9:00, right? Because what occurs to me -- and we should go to Tim Martin, anchor of WFIR talk radio -- is that this young lady going to class at 9:00 could have theoretically come in contact with the shooter, if the timing had been a little different.

In other words, this man, if it`s the same man, which they haven`t confirmed yet, but it would certainly lend itself to that possibility, assuming it`s the same suspect that`s responsible for both, left the dorm and traveled half a mile to Norris Hall, and sometime along that journey could have encountered any number of students who were streaming into class.

TIM MARTIN, WFIR TALK RADIO: You`re exactly right. I mean, the two- hour time difference is just phenomenal. And, obviously, you hate to place blame on anyone here, but, you know, the e-mail was sent out at around 9:25 or so. And at 9:30, a lot of students were shot at the Norris Hall.

It`s a very tough situation for Virginia Tech to be in. And, you know, we`re in the business of reporting the facts, and we`re trying to go through the facts as we do this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s turn it to Nancy Grace in the field -- Nancy?

GRACE: And, again, Jane, thanks so much for standing by. We are live in the field. I want to go back to Kathryn Beard, professor at Virginia Tech and mother of a student. Kathryn, what exactly did you find out on the phone? What went through your mind?

BEARD: Well, you know, we had gone through this earlier in the year, last August, with the William Morva incident (OFF-MIKE) just a numb feeling. From a university perspective, I felt that my daughter was safe. We had experienced this. We knew how much the university would respond (OFF-MIKE) we had confidence that they were doing everything to keep my child safe, but there is still that possibility. Why is she not answering the phone? Why is she not picking up? So you have a whole range of mixed feelings; I don`t think there`s any one thing that goes through your mind.

GRACE: Right. Out to the lines. Sandy in Maryland, hi, Sandy.

CALLER: Hi. I just wanted to know, how is the security on the campus? Do they have video cameras on the inside and outside of those buildings?

GRACE: Sandy, excellent question! I`m still hung up on the fact that two hours -- two full hours, over two hours -- passed from the first shootings at 7:15 until the next shootings around 9:26. And the alarm went out by e-mail. How many lives could have been saved if the alarm had gone out in a different way before those two hours?

Out to you, Tim Martin with WFIR talk radio, what type of security do they have on campus? I mean, you`d think after the first shooting, they would bring in the real cops.

MARTIN: Yes, you know, but Virginia Tech`s president said they reviewed their security process after the whole William Morva situation and absolutely you`d think that something would have been done, because in that situation, Virginia Tech did a very good job of managing the campus, of shutting it down, when all the chaos was going on. But this time...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes, but you know what, Tim? Tim, that was then. We`ve got 33 dead bodies, and I want answers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I see the SWAT team like swarmed around Norris, and I had no idea what was going on. And all of a sudden, I just hear these fires going off and all these gunshots. And everyone just started screaming "Run," and everyone ran across the drill field.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just insane. It`s such a big number. We were already saying this is just like a college Columbine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is something that no one will ever get over. I mean, the people who died, yes, they finished their pain, but the pain for everybody else will go on forever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just thinking back to Columbine and stuff like that, the shooting at the Amish school in Pennsylvania, it`s just utter shock how anybody could do this to anybody else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The deadliest shooting in U.S. history, 33 dead, 29 wounded, and at a place where parents thought their students were safe, at college, there at Virginia Tech. The deadly rampage started 7:15 a.m., and two full hours passed before an alarm was sounded, 33 now dead in all.

Joining us right now, a student that was in one of the structures where the shooting broke out, Josh Ehlers. Josh, what happened?

JOSH EHLERS, VIRGINIA TECH STUDENT: Well, the first shooting, I was asleep when it occurred. I`m on the floor right above it. I woke up about an hour later, about 8:00, and woke up to find police officers in the halls and around the building.

GRACE: So you were asleep just above the shooting?

EHLERS: Yes, did not hear the shots.

GRACE: What did police tell you was happening? I mean, weren`t you suspicious when you saw cops running up and down the halls?

EHLERS: Yes. I mean, we tried to ask them what was going on. They wouldn`t say anything. A resident adviser came by, told us to stay in our rooms if we could. Something had happened the floor right below us, and the cops had it under control.

GRACE: You know, out to you, Mike Brooks, I find that very disturbing that they didn`t tell the students, because now we know the shooter was still on the rampage. If the students had been alerted, we could have saved, how many, 31 lives?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: There`s that possibility, Nancy. You know, I`ve got three cousins down there, a freshman, a sophomore and a senior at Virginia Tech, and they`re all safe tonight, but, you know, I was very disturbed when I heard this. And it`s something that they`re going to have to take a look at, Nancy.

The Virginia Tech police department, they are a professional, law enforcement agency. They`re trained just like the municipality police are. And, you know, they have a great reputation, but they are going to have to take a look. The whole school, they have to look at the whole process of their emergency notification.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, you know what? You know what? Yes, I think the whole panel can agree tonight we need to look at the process, so we quit beating that dead horse, OK? Yes, we need to look at the process. I want to find out exactly what happened.

To you, Tim Martin with WFIR talk radio, how did a guy that just murdered two people get all the way across campus and manage to put chains on the doors so people can`t get out?

MARTIN: That`s the million-dollar question right now, Nancy. You know, that`s what everybody is wondering, because he obviously had to walk across campus, walk a half a mile. He was at least carrying one automatic weapon with him, and nobody sees anything. You know, nothing`s going on. The police think they have everything under control. They don`t.

GRACE: I want to go now to a special guest joining us tonight, Dr. Marty Mackary with Johns Hopkins University. Doctor, thank you very much for being with us. When I prosecuted in a very high-crime area, luckily we were near a very elite trauma emergency room, well-practiced in violent crime. The doctors there on duty knew how to save lives, the lives of shooting victims. There`s a big difference, in a regular E.R., in an E.R. trained in trauma and shootings and crimes.

DR. MARTY MACKARY, M.D., JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Certainly some hospitals have a lot of experience with gunshot victims. We have, in Baltimore, a very high homicide rate. It hasn`t been less than 300 homicides per year in recent memory, and the average age of a gunshot victim at our hospital is 19. I`m sad to report that number has come down in recent years. So we`re seeing more of this closer-range gunshots and multiple gunshots, as opposed to single gunshots.

GRACE: Right. And my point, to Jana Zehner with the American Red Cross there at Virginia Tech campus, where there is a crisis, the American Red Cross is on the scene -- you know, that`s not the hospital`s fault. You don`t expect an incredible crime wave to show up on your doorstep on Monday morning 0900. What is the Red Cross doing to help?

JANA ZEHNER, AMERICAN RED CROSS: The Red Cross is focused right now on doing everything we can for the families and for the students who have clearly gone through one of the worst days of their life, specifically mental health counseling. We have mental health volunteers that have come in from all over the country to be here, to work with families, to work with students. We`re also making sure that there`s food, the basic things that they need, working in conjunction with our partners in the area to make sure people have what they need to start on their road to recovery.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Penny Douglass Furr out of Atlanta, Michael Cardoza out of San Francisco. The rest of us all in the field at various places.

To you, Penny Douglass Furr, I`m not ready to start finger-pointing quite yet, but the two-hour delay between the first shooting and second round of shootings seems to me inexcusable.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I believe the man obviously had a target, because where was he during those two hours? I think he must have known someone in that second building. There was something he was after. And I`m not at all surprised that this all exploded from a domestic situation. It`s not unusual to have just the most volatile incident during a domestic situation, but I believe he had a target when he went into that second building.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragic, tragic event. I can`t express how much sorrow I feel for the families and everyone involved with this incident. But we`re doing everything we can to bring this investigation to a successful conclusion, find out all the facts, and go from there.

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GRACE: The deadliest shooting in U.S. history, 33 dead, 29 wounded. A state of emergency declared.

Welcome back, everyone. We are live in Virginia, the shooting at Virginia Tech campus. To you, Andrea Macari, from what we`re hearing right now, the shooter is a young, reportedly Asian male. There are also reports that this somehow sprang from a domestic issue. That`s incredibly euphemistic to call a mass shooting domestic, as if that somehow explains it all away.

ANDREA MACARI, INSTRUCTOR OF PSYCHOLOGY: Yes, I don`t agree with that. We do know that school shooters report being bullied, about two- thirds of them have. We know that, as young children, they didn`t get along or often viewed as social outcasts. So what really does this mean? That they have a history of feeling that they don`t belong, feeling powerless. And in their mind, by committing this massacre, it leaves a legacy of significance or power.

GRACE: I`ve got 30 seconds left. Out to Maggie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Maggie.

CALLER: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

CALLER: I was wondering, do they know if, among the dead, if it`s just students that are dead or are there students and faculty dead and if it`s a random...

GRACE: I understand that they`re students and faculty, Maggie. We don`t have a motive yet. Quickly, Tim Martin, do they expect the death toll to rise overnight?

MARTIN: It very well could, with the injuries that are in the hospital. I understand a couple of those are possibly serious. Tomorrow it could be a whole different number. It`s probably not going to rise that much, though.

GRACE: OK. We will be live at the scene tomorrow, as well.

Very quickly, let`s don`t forget our American hero, Marine Lance Corporal Stephen Chavez, 20, Hondo, New Mexico, enlisted straight from high school. He dreamed of being a soldier as a boy. He loved the outdoors, track, basketball, football, fishing. He leaves behind parents, a sister, Jackie, and 11-year-old brother James. Steven Chavez, American hero.

Thank you to our guests and to you. Tonight, our prayers in Virginia. Good night, friend.

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