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Rudy Giuliani Under Fire Over Donations to Planned Parenthood; God and Politics; Los Angeles Firefighters Battle Massive Blaze

Aired May 8, 2007 - 22:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
We begin tonight with breaking news: crews scrambling to contain a fire in a location familiar to just about anyone who has ever been to the movies.

CNN's Ted Rowlands is live in Griffith Park in the Hollywood Hills, looking out over Los Angeles.

What's going on, Ted?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, Griffith Park basically separates Hollywood from the San Fernando Valley.

And, as mentioned, it is a huge piece of land the most people in Los -- all people in Los Angeles are familiar of and most people around the country.

To get a feel for the terrain up here, this is basically it. It's very hilly. It is very dry. And it has been a huge problem for firefighters today. They have been at this since about 1:30 this afternoon, Pacific time. Mainly, they have been able to attack this fire from the air. There have been ground crews that have been coming up into these hillsides, setting some backfires and fighting the fire by hand.

But, for the most part, it's been by helicopter. There was some dramatic moments for firefighters throughout the day. At one point, a group of firefighters were trying to save a bridge, and they were overcome by flames. They had to actually get underneath that bridge for safety. A helicopter followed very quickly and doused water on top of that bridge. All of those firefighters are OK. They were not hurt in that incident.

At one point, the Los Angeles Zoo this afternoon has to be completely evacuated. Everybody at the zoo was told to leave. It was an orderly evacuation. At this moment tonight, the animals are still at the zoo. We're about a mile-and-a-half from the zoo, where the -- we're at the leading edge of the fire.

And, at this point, they do not believe that the animals will have to be evacuated. But they do have a plan in place in case something happens.

How did this start? We're getting conflicting points. There was an individual in the hospital that the Los Angeles Police Department says -- believes -- an individual that may have had something to do with this fire. One report says he was golfing and threw a cigarette out, then tried to put it out. Whether it was arson or an accident remains to be seen.

But firefighters, at 25 percent contained tonight, are expected to have a long, long night in front of them -- Anderson.

COOPER: Hey, Ted, are investigators call thing arson? Are there any suspects?

ROWLANDS: There is an individual that they believe had something to do with the start of this fire. Whether or not it was arson, an intentional start, or if it was an accident remains to be seen. But they do believe they have an individual that had something to do with the start of this fire.

And that individual is in the hospital this evening, suffering from burns. So, whether or not this individual did it on purpose or not or did it at all is still under investigation. But, clearly, they do have a lead on it. And, clearly, it's going to be a long night for firefighters.

We should say, though, no structures at this point are threatened. There were some evacuations earlier in the afternoon. But, at this point, firefighters are confident that they will be able to save any structures in this fire's path.

COOPER: Ted, just incredible, some of this video, and I just want to put it back up on the air for our viewers to see.

You can actually see the firefighters under the bridge, basically getting trapped by this huge wall of flame.

ROWLANDS: Anderson, I'm sorry. I did not hear that question. We're up in a remote area. And I just -- I did not hear any of that.

COOPER: We're looking at a piece of video right now...


COOPER: We're looking at a piece of video...


ROWLANDS: ... this fire up in the hills. We have climbed up here. I the hear you.


COOPER: Well, for viewers at home, you can see the bridge there that Ted was talking about, the firefighters literally seeking safety underneath that bridge, the area then doused with water to try to beat back those flames.

But just the winds whipping the flames, it looks to be, a good 20, 30 feet over that bridge at times, clearly, a very dangerous situation for those firefighters. We will try to get more on that story a little bit later on.

On now to the arrest today of five men the government believes were plotting terror at a U.S. military base and a sixth who allegedly supplied the weapons. The suspects include a convenience store clerk, a taxi driver, and three roofers.

The question now, did they also add up to a homegrown Muslim terror cell?

More on the story from CNN's Deborah Feyerick.


DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Five suspects in these vans allegedly plotted to kill at least 100 soldiers at Fort Dix Army Base in New Jersey, using AK-47s and other assault rifles.

JODY WEIS, FBI: Today, we dodged a bullet. In fact, when you look at the type of weapons that this group was trying to purchase, we may have dodged a lot of bullets. We had a group that was forming a platoon to take on an army.

FEYERICK: Investigators discovered the plot more than a year ago, when a store clerk told them he had been asked to copy a video showing 10 men shooting assault weapons, militia-style, and calling for jihad.

A paid FBI informant infiltrated the group, convincing them he could get his hands on AK-47s and M-16 semiautomatic weapons. The weapons were delivered last night. And FBI agents and New Jersey State Police followed, sweeping in to take out the alleged terror cell.

CHRISTOPHER CHRISTIE, U.S. ATTORNEY: All that, combined with their increased training sessions, the intensity of those, and ultimately their desire to get automatic weapons to complete their plan, told us it was now time to take this down and not let it go any further.

FEYERICK: The five defendants, one of them allegedly a sniper from Kosovo, travelled to the Pennsylvania mountains for training.

Randy Swiden (ph) says he saw them on the firing range.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they just set up some targets in a 50- yard range and started firing. But they had brought jugs and other, like, paper plates as targets, instead of regular aiming targets.

FEYERICK: The criminal complaint says that, on that training trip, they talked about bombs, C-4 explosives, and striking U.S. warships docked in Philadelphia. They watched videos of terror training and attacks on the U.S. military.

CHRISTIE: They watched the blowing off of the arm of a United States Marine, and the room burst out into laughter. FEYERICK: One of the defendants allegedly provided a map of Fort Dix. Authorities say his family owns this pizzeria near the base, and that he used to deliver pizzas there and knew the base like the palm of his hand.

JOSEPH HOFFLINGER, PIZZA CHEF: No, he seemed like a regular, regular person. You know, he would come in. Hi. How you doing? What's up? You know...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would he hang around?

HOFFLINGER: Yes, he would stay for, like -- he would sit there and have lunch, talk to his father, and then he would go.

FEYERICK: Authorities say he suggested causing a power outage on the base to make the attack easier, saying he would do it in the name of Allah.

Three of the defendants are brothers, ethnic Albanians in their 20s, in the U.S. illegally, who allegedly collected weapons for the attack.

Another suspect, their brother-in-law, allegedly scouted out Fort Dix and other Army bases for attack. They are charged with conspiring to kill U.S. military personnel, a charge that carries a maximum life sentence. A sixth man was charged with supplying weapons.

WEIS: Today's threats come from smaller, more loosely defined individuals and cells.

FEYERICK: ... members of the defendants were visibly shaken in court, one woman sobbing. The men were taken to a detention facility, pending a hearing Friday.


COOPER: Deborah, is there any evidence of an al Qaeda connection? And was it just Army bases that they wanted to target, allegedly?

FEYERICK: There's no clear evidence that this was sanctioned by al Qaeda, but it was definitely inspired by al Qaeda.

According to the confidential informant, he was shown videos on one of the man's computers. They included videos of bin Laden, of al Qaeda, of training, mujahedeen, also of two of the 9/11 hijackers, a last will and testament that appeared on the computer when it was played to the confidential informant.

We are told also, according to the criminal complaint, that they were looking at a lot of other Army bases in this area, including Dover Air Force base. And one thing they had in mind was possibly attacking the Army-Navy football game back in early December -- one of the men quoted as saying that they missed that opportunity. So, they definitely had their sights on these people. And, even though this was not sanctioned by al Qaeda, one of the men is quoted saying that they wanted a fatwa. They were waiting the fatwa. Who that was supposed to come from, unclear. U.S. attorney wouldn't say, but, in fact, these are the kind of groups that authorities are most concerned about, because they are independent, they are organized, but they don't talk to anyone but themselves -- Anderson.

COOPER: Deborah, thanks very much.

Fort Dix is a massive and vital military base. Here's the "Raw Data" on it.

It covers 50 square miles of land in New Jersey. It is the largest military mobilization site in the U.S. Since September 11, the base has mobilized and demobilized more than 90,000 soldiers. Fort Dix celebrates its 90th anniversary this summer.

Now abortion, hardball politics, and Rudy Giuliani -- CNN has obtained copies of federal tax returns showing the former New York mayor and current GOP presidential front-runner gave money to Planned Parenthood on at least six occasions during the '90s. The evidence first surfaced on the Web site Politico, editors there saying they were tipped to it by aides from a rival campaign.

Here's what the Giuliani campaign had to say -- quote -- "The donations are consistent with his personal position against abortion, and that Planned Parenthood provides information on options available to pregnant women" -- unquote -- options, we should add, that include abortion.


LAURA INGRAHAM, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think it's giving people a lot of pause. And I think the fact that he says he hates abortion, and then we find out that he's given, on multiple occasions, to Planned Parenthood, donations, it's hard to square those two things. I don't donate to things I hate.


COOPER: Mr. Giuliani is alone among Republican candidates in holding mixed views on abortions.

He is not, however, alone among Americans, who narrowly support the right to an abortion under certain circumstances. Some believe this may help Giuliani in the general election, but, first, he has got to win, of course, the Republican primaries.

I talked about the challenge earlier tonight with two of the best political strategists in the business, Democrat James Carville, who is also a CNN contributor, and Republican Ralph Reed.


COOPER: How is this going to impact Giuliani's presidential efforts? It certainly does not help him among conservatives.

RALPH REED, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think that Mayor Giuliani is going to speak to that issue as to what the reason for those contributions were.

But he has said that he abhors abortion. He has said that he supports the Hyde amendment. Obviously, he's not where the conservative base of the party is on that issue. And that's what the dialogue and discussion will be about. And I don't think he will be the only candidate that will wrestle with that issue.

COOPER: James...

JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He's done wrestling with it.

Planned Parenthood -- let's be factual here -- is a group that provides information on birth control and is an abortion provider. And he contributed $900, and he stands up and he says he hates abortion.

I don't know, but, if I were, as many members of my own family, are very pro-life, I would think that they would be upset.

And I noticed this Mr. Richard Land down at the Southern Baptist Convention, I don't think he's too impressed with this whole thing. And I think there are a lot of Christian conservatives who are pro- life that don't really believe that Giuliani really hates abortion. If you're pro-life, it's pretty hard to reconcile.

If somebody said they were anti-discrimination and gave four checks to the Klan, I would probably be skeptical of them.

REED: Well, I -- look, I think this is an issue that is going to be debated in our party.

It's going to be debated in your party, James.


REED: And I think, after the Supreme Court upheld the right of the Congress to ban the gruesome procedure of partial-birth abortion, and your candidates immediately did the bum's rush to condemn a decision that, by the way, 75 percent of the American people support -- it was a bipartisan piece of legislation.


REED: I think your party is the one that is out of the mainstream on that issue, James...


REED: ... not the Republican Party.

(CROSSTALK) CARVILLE: You know, overwhelming, every poll shows that Americans support a woman's right to choose. But we can flush that out.


COOPER: As you -- James, as you know, the Giuliani camp is saying, look, our candidate has been consistent on this throughout his history, unlike some of the other candidates, obviously talking about Mitt Romney.



But he said that he -- again, if you say you hate abortion, and you make $900 checks out, I think there's a question there. I think a lot of -- and I think a lot of religious conservatives are very, very upset about this.

REED: This is going to be debated in both parties.

But my point is this. On the substantive issue of the public policy, every single Republican candidate supported the Supreme Court's ban of partial-birth abortion. Every Democratic candidate condemned it.


REED: All of our candidates oppose federal funding and taxpayer funding of abortion. All the Democrats...

CARVILLE: No, Giuliani does not.

REED: ... support that federal funding.

He said he supported the Hyde amendment the other night.

CARVILLE: No, but that allows the state to do it. And he said he supported the state of New York providing money for abortions. That's just a fact.


REED: And the other thing is...


CARVILLE: It's just like evolution. It's a fact, Ralph.


REED: All of our candidates have said that they will support conservative judges who will not legislate from the bench. And your candidates say they're going to support candidates who will legislate... CARVILLE: No.


REED: ... a constitutional right to abortion from the bench.


CARVILLE: Every Democratic candidate, plus Rudy Giuliani, believes in a woman's right to choose. That's true. That's absolutely true.


REED: And, as I said, we're going to debate that in our party.


REED: But, when we get to the general election, James...


REED: ... I would sure rather be where our party is on the protection of innocent human life than where your party is.

CARVILLE: Well, Giuliani is not where you are.

REED: Well, we will see how it plays out.


CARVILLE: ... Giuliani and Planned Parenthood can run as Republicans.


REED: Hey, James -- James, I hate to break the news to you, but we're not going to take your advice on how to choose our nominee or not have these discussions, OK?


CARVILLE: I don't expect that you will.



REED: I don't think you have our best interests in mind, James.


COOPER: Probably wise.


COOPER: Probably not a bad idea.

We're continuing to follow the breaking news out of Los Angeles, a wildfire, possibly arson in Griffith Park. The zoo has -- evacuated fully at one point -- crews working, the live hot and dry weather certainly not helping any. We will keep a close eye on this, bring you any updates throughout the evening.

Also tonight: Carville and Reed weighing in on God, presidential politics, and the battle over teaching evolution.


COOPER (voice-over): He says, teach the controversy.

REED: This is an issue of academic freedom and local control.

COOPER: He says, what controversy?

CARVILLE: It's just like evolution. It's a fact.

COOPER: With three presidential candidates saying they don't believe in evolution, and Americans split, the intense debate and how it may affect who ends up in the White House.

Also: They wanted 8 bucks for it. She got it for $5.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were going to get the darts and throw at it, but we never got around to it.

COOPER: Good thing she didn't. It could be worth millions. Meet the woman who says she picked up a modern art masterpiece at a thrift shop -- the art critics who say, no way, and the scientists who say, could be -- ahead on 360.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe in evolution?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm curious. Is there anybody on the stage that does not agree in -- believe in evolution?

MCCAIN: May I just add to that?


MCCAIN: I believe in evolution. But I also believe, when I hike the Grand Canyon and see it at sunset, that the hand of God is there also.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, if you missed it last week, that was politics colliding with science and religion in the first debate of presidential candidates.

Three candidates raised their hands to show they don't believe in evolution, former Governor of Arkansas Mike Huckabee, Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas, and Representative Tom Tancredo of Colorado.

Now, some might find that surprising, but, according to a recent "Newsweek" poll, nearly half of Americans feel the same way. Take a look. In the poll, 48 percent said they believed God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years. Just 13 percent said humans are the result of evolution, with God playing no part in the process.

And those two numbers are really the perfect place to start our new segment, "America Divided," a look at some of the big issues which literally divide this country.

Once again, here's James Carville and Ralph Reed.


COOPER: Ralph, to conservatives, how important is this issue of evolutionism vs. creationism and/or intelligent design?

REED: If you really look at all the polling, Anderson, a majority say they believe in the theory of creationism, that God created the heavens, the Earth and mankind.

So, I don't know that it's an issue that's really determinative of voting behavior, but it certainly becomes derivative of or part of a broader tapestry of a candidate being able to convey to voters that they share their values.

And I think this has been an advantage for Republicans. I think it will continue to be an advantage in 2008.

COOPER: That's -- I mean, James, he raised a good point. Democrats have long been criticized for not being able to speak to Americans about religion or moral values, perhaps since Jimmy Carter did.

Does the evolution debate present Democrats with particular problems?


Every Democratic candidate believes in evolution, as does every scientist. When people pray, they pray that the war on science is going to stop. And, if people want to teach creationism, they perfectly well can do that in Sunday school, or people want to teach the parting of the Red Sea, but you don't do that in nautical history.

The Mormons believe that the lost tribes of Israel came over here after the death of Christ. Well, if they want to teach that in a Mormon Church, that's perfectly acceptable, but they don't teach that in the Utah public schools, nor should they.

And I think that's what -- what people are saying. And, obviously, every Democratic candidate believes in evolution. Every Democratic candidate thinks it's based on -- it ought to be taught in schools. It's a theory like -- and every Democratic candidate, by the way, believes in gravity.


CARVILLE: I mean, you know, it's about the -- the same thing.

I mean, you can be a person of faith and a moral person and believe in gravity and believe in evolution.

COOPER: Ralph, what about that? For a Republican to win a primary vs. to win in the general election, in terms of faith and religion and evolution, is it two different battles?

REED: No. This is really not a complicated issue.

The issue is that this ought to be a matter left to local school boards, teachers and parents. That's really where it is in our country.

And I think where the president came down when he was running in '99 and 2000, and where I think the overwhelming majority of our candidates today stand, is, you know, this is an issue of academic freedom and local control. So, nobody wants to prevent evolution from being taught. We all agree that, when that went on earlier in our country, that was wrong.

But we also think that, as a matter of academic freedom and local control, that, if a -- if a school or a teacher decides to present an alternative viewpoint, from a scientific standpoint, not teaching the Bible -- that's for religion class -- but presenting some scientific evidence of an alternative view of human origins, what's wrong with that? Let them be exposed to it. Let them come to their own conclusions.

CARVILLE: Because a school board can't decide to say to teach anti-gravity.

You don't have a local choice. This is science. This is replacing it. And that's ludicrous. And every court has said so. And Americans want science. We are falling behind in science and math. The statistics are staggering. And the last thing we need to do is teach people anti-science. We ought to be teaching them science.

You can't teach that the stork brings babies anymore. That's just not the way the world works.

REED: Well, again...

CARVILLE: And you can't teach this. REED: ... I think one is an issue of respecting academic freedom and freedom of speech in the classroom. And the other is telling professors and teachers who have come to a different viewpoint that they're not allowed to express it.

CARVILLE: So, if somebody says that you can...


REED: And you know what? If the weight of the evidence is so overwhelming, then, what are you afraid of?

CARVILLE: I'm not...


REED: Why prohibit a professor or a teacher...

CARVILLE: You can't teach people you can get pregnant on a toilet seat, because there's no...

REED: Huh?

CARVILLE: You can't teach that, because it's not fact.

You can't -- the school board of -- a school board can't get overtaken and decide that it's going to teach what it -- what it wants. You have got to teach hard, fact-based science.

REED: That's exactly what I'm talking about.

CARVILLE: That judge -- go look at the opinion of the judge...

REED: I'm talking about a scientific review of the evidence.


CARVILLE: ... in the Dover, Pennsylvania, case.

It's all an attempt by you guys to get religion in the classroom.

REED: No. No, it's not.

CARVILLE: You have your religion and your faith in the church, not in the classroom.

REED: No. That's absolutely not true.

CARVILLE: Well, sure it is.

REED: ... because we don't -- we don't believe that someone's faith can be imposed by them by government edict.


REED: We believe, as a matter of our theology, that they can only agree with that voluntarily, as a matter of the volition of their will.

CARVILLE: Ralph...


REED: All we're talking about, James, is an issue of academic freedom.

CARVILLE: We're not talking about that.


REED: You want to prohibit them...

CARVILLE: No, I don't.

REED: You want to prohibit them from teaching an alternative view. And we simply say they ought to be allowed to.

CARVILLE: No, I want them to teach -- I want them to teach science.

COOPER: Guys, we're going to have to leave it here.


COOPER: Clearly, we have a difference of opinion.


COOPER: Ralph Reed...

CARVILLE: Thank you.

COOPER: ... James Carville, guys, appreciate it.

CARVILLE: Appreciate it. Bye-bye.

REED: You bet. Thanks.


COOPER: Up next on 360: the raw poll numbers that have the White House squirming.

Plus: Do you know who this woman is? We will tell you, and tell you why she may be Barack Obama's secret weapon.

Also ahead: President Bush and Queen Elizabeth, one last supper. CNN's Richard Quest has all the details. And he will try to stump you and me with some royal trivia -- ahead on 360.


COOPER: A breaking news story that we are following: firefighters literally facing a wall of flames. See the firefighters underneath the bridge? They had to seek safety under that bridge, as the wall of flame basically pushes them back. There, you see it happening right there, battling this wildfire in Griffith Park, overlooking Los Angeles, the flames, extremely powerful there, being whipped by these winds, very dry conditions.

Said a commander tonight, it is going to be a long night out there. They say, right now, the fire is about 25 percent contained. It threatened the L.A. Zoo. Visitors and non-essential staffers were asked to leave when the fire broke out this afternoon -- so far, no full-scale evacuation of the animals.

Arson investigators were questioning a man, but they say he is not a suspect. You see they had to douse that whole area from the air to try to rescue those firefighters, who were literally under the bridge during all of this.

That -- there -- there are the firefighters who, again, are going to seek safety underneath that bridge.

They did see -- talk to one person, not a suspect, they say. Reportedly, he is a golfer who accidentally may have started the fire when he ditched a cigarette. There's a golf -- golf course in Griffith Park, but some very dramatic images that we have been watching in these last several hours.

We will continue to follow it over the next two hours on 360.

In other news tonight, the Army says it has told some 35,000 U.S. troops to prepare for deployment to Iraq late this year. Those fresh brigades are going to replace some of the troops on the ground.

The rotation details come, of course, in the middle of this fiery debate over the four-year-old war and the funding for it.

And that's where "Raw Politics" begin with Tom Foreman.


TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You wonder what's making you feel so uncomfortable about politics these days. Well, you're being polled. And the White House is squirming over the raw numbers that top "Raw Politics" tonight.

The Democrats passed a war funding measure with a deadline for a troop pullout. The president swatted it down, and voters are hitting back. The latest CNN poll finds, 54 percent think his veto was wrong.

The White House says deadlines are still a bad idea.

TONY SNOW, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It is certainly a war in which our walking away is not going to turn Osama bin Laden into a flower child.

FOREMAN: Democrats are not being flowery about it. Just as we predicted here in "Raw Politics," they are now jumping all over those soaring gas prices, saying they must be brought under control.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We're trying to turn around six years of no oversight and no acting on behalf of America's consumers.

FOREMAN: The Republican retort: What are you going to do about it?

REP. ERIC CANTOR (R), VIRGINIA: This Congress has become mired in inaction and a lack of leadership on the part of Ms. Pelosi and her team.

FOREMAN: Barack Obama's team stronger by one.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Before I get started, Michelle, you want to say anything?


FOREMAN: His wife, Michelle, on the trail with him, is now doing some solo campaigning, too.

But Massachusetts man Mitt Romney, no need for help at the moment -- a new poll by a Boston TV station shows him, for the first time, leading the Republican field in New Hampshire -- a small state, yes, but one that still has an impact early on. Watch for his fund-raising to rise as a result -- Anderson.


COOPER: Tom, thanks.

That's "Raw Politics."

Don't forget, you can watch "Raw Politics" and the day's headlines in our new 360 daily podcast. You don't need an iPod. You can watch it on your computer at, or you can get it from the iTunes store, where it is a top download.

Now, here's John Roberts with a look at what is coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."



Coming up on "AMERICAN MORNING": We have talked so much about the tornadoes and the flooding in the Midwest. Meanwhile, a huge part of the South is suffering from drought, lakes drying up, fires burning, water being restricted.

How the drought is changing the way that some of us live -- join us for "AMERICAN MORNING," beginning at 6:00 a.m. Eastern -- Anderson.


COOPER: John, thanks very much.

You know, if you have ever dreamed of finding buried treasure or hitting the lottery, you will want to stick around for our next story about a retired trucker and the painting she believes is a multimillion-dollar jackpot.


COOPER (voice-over): Also, they wanted 8 bucks for it. She got it for $5.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were going to get the darts and throw at it, but we never got around to it.

COOPER: Good thing she didn't. It could be worth millions. Meet the woman who says she picked up a modern art masterpiece at a thrift shop -- the art critics who say, no way, and the scientists who say, could be -- ahead on 360.

Also, returning the favor. President Bush calls on the queen. We'll tell you all about their dinner and challenge your royal knowledge and mine, when 360 continues.


COOPER: A $5 masterpiece. It's the story you kind of have to see to believe, a story I did for "60 Minutes" on Sunday.

A former trucker named Teri Horton is convinced she's hit the jackpot, and not in Las Vegas but in the high stakes world of modern art. Teri is convinced she owns a masterpiece by Jackson Pollock, one of the greatest painters of the 20th Century.

Now if she does, the painting is probably worth tens of millions of dollars, which is not bad, considering Teri only bought it as a joke for a friend, and she only paid $5 for it in a thrift shop in San Bernardino, California.


TERI HORTON, BELIEVES SHE OWNS JACKSON POLLOCK PAINTING: I picked up the canvas and took it up to the lady in the thrift store, and I asked her what she wanted for it. And she said, "Give me $8."

And I said, "I love my friend, but I don't love her that much," so she gave it to me for $5. And that's why -- how I bought it.

COOPER: Five dollars.

HORTON: Five bucks.

COOPER (voice-over): Teri, who drove big rigs for 20 years, says she never liked the painting and only bought it as a joke. We met her in a New York warehouse where she now stores it.

HORTON: We were going to get the darts and throw at it, but we never got around to it.

COOPER (on camera): You were going to get darts and throw darts at it?

HORTON: Right, right. But we got to drinking too much beer and never went in the trailer and got the darts.

COOPER (voice-over): The painting was too big to fit through the door of her friend's trailer, so Teri put it in a yard sale where an art teacher from a nearby college saw it.

HORTON: And he looked at it and he said, "I'm no expert," but he said, "This could be by Jackson Pollock."

And that's when I said, "Who the (expletive deleted) is Jackson Pollock?"

COOPER (on camera): And what did he say to you?

HORTON: He just started laughing, and he went on to tell me who he was.

COOPER (voice-over): Jackson Pollock was and is one of the most important American artists of the 21st century. His work was stunningly original and extremely influential. The Museum of Modern Art in New York has devoted a whole room to his paintings.

Pollock made those paintings, as this 1951 footage shows, by dripping, splattering and pouring paint on a canvas. He barely eked by until those so-called drip paintings started to sell in the early 1950s.

His reputation continued to grow after he died in 1956 in a drunk driving accident, and so did the prices for those paintings. This Pollock work, called No. 5, recently sold for a record $140 million.

Teri may not know much about art, but after studying Pollock's works and talking to people, she became convinced her painting was the real thing.

(on camera) What do you think your painting is worth?

HORTON: Probably around $50 million.

COOPER: Fifty million dollars?

HORTON: There are collectors that would love to have it, if they could get the art world to back it.

COOPER (voice-over): Getting the art world to back it has been the problem for Teri. Very few in the highbrow work of art take her seriously.

HORTON: They tried to be kind about the names they were calling me. But I still figured out that they thought I was absolutely squirrelly. COOPER: Teri the trucker was used to long hauls and began stirring up so much controversy that a documentary was made about her struggle to win approval for her painting. The film, which has just been released on DVD, was made by Harry Moses, a former producer here at "60 Minutes".

To get an idea of the art world's opinion of Teri's painting, the film maker showed it to Thomas Hoving, the legendary former director of New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art.

THOMAS HOVING, FORMER DIRECTOR, METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART: My instant impression, which I always write down, you know, the blink, the under -- the second impression, was neat dash compacted, which is not good. He wasn't neat. He wasn't compacted.

It's pretty. It's superficial and frivolous, and I don't believe it's a Jackson Pollock. It has no appeal. It's dead on arrival. Dead on arrival.

COOPER: They also showed it to Ben Heller, a collector who bought his first Pollock painting 50 years ago.

BEN HELLER, COLLECTOR: I'm looking for the cracks in the paint and the way the paint is applied, that is the layering of one color on top of another on top of another makes me uncomfortable. It just doesn't look like a Pollock. This doesn't look like a Pollock. It doesn't feel like a Pollock. Doesn't sing like a Pollock, doesn't feel like a Pollock.

HORTON: There is no way anybody can get up and look at that painting or any Pollock, for that matter, and be able, by visual examination and wait for this mystical feeling that they get that comes over them, to decide whether it is or whether it is not authentic. They call it connoisseurship.

COOPER (on camera): What do you call it?

HORTON: Bull (expletive deleted).

COOPER: When you look at your painting, do you get a feeling?

HORTON: Yes. I -- you're damn right I do. When I look at the Pollock, I see dollar signs. That's all I see. I mean, you know, come on.

COOPER (voice-over): Shut out by the connoisseurs, Teri turned to science. She found Paul Biro, a forensic art expert based in Montreal. Biro made his name as an art restorer. He now specializes in using scientific techniques to assess paintings.

(on camera) What did you think of Teri when you first met her?


COOPER: The typical Jackson Pollock owner?

BIRO: Not quite.

COOPER (voice-over): Biro studied Teri's canvas for several hours, searching for clues.

BIRO: Well, the very first step for me was to analyze the painting, take pigment samples, look for forensic evidence.

COOPER: It's sounds almost like you're describing a crime scene.

BIRO: It's actually quite similar. I'm not looking for the criminal; I'm looking for the artist who committed the painting, actually.

COOPER (voice-over): It was here on the back of the canvas Biro discovered a fingerprint, a fingerprint left in paint.

BIRO: Once I turned the canvas around and I saw the fingerprint, I said, "Ah-ha." Because I suddenly felt I have something to go on here.

COOPER: His next step was to find a Jackson Pollock fingerprint to compare it to. Pollock never served in the Army, however, and was never fingerprinted by police.

So, as the documentary shows, Biro, like any detective, went to the scene of the crime. In this case, the studio in East Hampton, Long Island, where Pollock made all those drip paintings. The studio is now a museum, preserved as it was, right down to the open paint cans and brushes.

On a can of blue paint, Biro found a fingerprint that matched the one on Teri's painting. We asked him to show us the prints on his computer in his lab.

BIRO: We're looking at six ridges in all, and we are looking at six characteristics that I have marked here, which are clear enough to be usable. You can see the lines intersecting and forming bifurcations.

COOPER (on camera): So that's the print that you look from Teri's painting?

BIRO: Yes. The one on the left is from Teri's painting and the one on the right is the portion of the fingerprint from a blue paint can from Jackson Pollock's studio, which indicator mark points to the corresponding characteristics in each picture.

Here you see a montage basically of one fingerprint on top of the other. You can see how they actually correspond and are fully congruent.

COOPER: Biro says that match proves Teri's painting came from Pollock's studio.

Then in the Tate Modern Museum in London, he found another print on a known Pollock that he says matched the other two. (on camera) In a court of law would this hold up?

BIRO: Yes, it would. I believe it would.

COOPER (voice-over): He checked his work with Andre Tourkat (ph), a retired Canadian police sergeant who ran the Quebec police fingerprint lab for more than a decade. Tourkat (ph) agreed the prints matched.

There's as far the comparisons have gone. Unless there's a potential buyer, Teri is unwilling to let other fingerprint experts examine Biro's findings. And she declined our request to send the prints to an independent expert.

Biro's fingerprint match didn't change many minds in the art world, but it was good enough for at least one art collector who offered Teri $2 million for the painting. She said no.

(on camera) Why didn't you take it?

HORTON: I know what it's worth.

COOPER: Some people say, look, $2 million.

HORTON: Exactly.

COOPER: You spent $5 on this painting.

HORTON: Right, right.

COOPER: And you're offered $2 million. Take the money and run, some people would say.

HORTON: True. But it was not a fair offer. Be fair with me, and I'll sell it.

COOPER: So you're not really sure at this point what you would take for this painting?

HORTON: No. I'm not going to let them steal it from me.

COOPER (voice-over): Ten years after buying it, Teri tried to get the art establishment to certify her painting. She went to the International Foundation for Art Research, or IFAR, a highly regarded art organization. An IFAR team of Pollock experts studied the canvas and said it is not by the hand of Jackson Pollock, although were some strong similarities to authentic works by Pollock.

Teri hasn't been able to prove where the painting came from, all she has is this sales trip from Dot's Thrift Shop. Dot is dead. Her shop was torn down, and no one knows where Dot got the painting from. There's no paper trail of ownership, what's known in the art world as a provenance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Provenance is one clue that lets you track a work of art's history. COOPER: Katie Siegel is a professor of art history at Hunter College in New York and a curator at the National Academy Museum.

(on camera) And without a provenance?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without a provenance, you're without a provenance. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the work is a fake, but it means you have to look to other factors. And it makes it less easy.

COOPER: What also makes authenticating Pollocks less easy is that over the years they have turned up in unusual places. A collector named Allan Stone bought one genuine Pollock that was found in an East Hampton, Long Island, garbage dump. A car dealer had used the backside of the canvas to make a sign.

ALLAN STONE, COLLECTOR: Everybody knew that Pollock dumped a lot of his unsuccessful things in the dump in East Hampton. You know, in those days, they weren't worth anything, really. You know?

COOPER: And a few months ago, 32 potential Pollocks turned up in the attic of Herbert Matter, a friend and contemporary of the artist. Some leading experts say they're genuine.

But the art establishment shows no inclination to accept Teri's painting, even with the fingerprints. Art lawyer Ron Spencer explained why in the documentary.

RON SPENCER, ART LAWYER: The art world doesn't understand fingerprints anymore than it understands DNA. So you're asking them to take what they don't understand. You say, is there a match? I don't know what -- I don't know what a match means. They don't know what a match means.

HORTON: They don't understand fingerprint evidence? It's been around for over a hundred years. But if somebody steals his car or whatever, they're going to find the thief by fingerprints on the door handle. He'll accept those fingerprints, right?

COOPER: Katie Siegel, the art history professor, says some connoisseurs do accept forensic science.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a case, I think, where you can't set up some sort of dichotomy or opposition between science and art, or, you know, a nice working truck driver versus snobby, fancy art historians.

COOPER (on camera): That's certainly the way this woman, Teri Horton, sees it. I mean, she sort of views the art world as snobbish and elitist and they don't want to include her in on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The art world is attached to, you know, wealth and, you know, rich people who own art. What you don't have is art historians who want to keep her out. I would love it if it turns out to be a Pollock. You know, it would be fantastic. COOPER: In all the years Teri has struggled over her painting, she's never seen Pollock's studio. So we took her out to Long Island where Helen Harrison, the museum director, showed her the place where Pollock did most of his work, including, Teri believes, the painting she bought for $5.

HORTON: It almost makes you want to cry. Is that weird. And I choked that back because this is dumb. So then I walked into the room and then I got angry.

COOPER (on camera): Why?

HORTON: Not at Pollock, but how dare them tell me that it's not authentic? They laugh at me and they say, "You don't know what you're talking about."

And I said, "One of these days I'm going to say, 'Nener, nener, nener. I told you so'."


COOPER: The battle has been going on for a long time. Curious to know what you think. Do you think it's real? We'll see.

Up next on 360, the queen took center stage in Washington tonight. One last elegant affair before she jets back across the pond. CNN's Richard Quest is following her every move and joins us -- Richard.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, time for your nightly quiz. The question tonight: how many presidents -- U.S. presidents that is -- has Queen Elizabeth had dinner with? We will have that and how her majesty got her own back tonight at the British embassy. It's diplomatic humiliation when 360 returns.


COOPER: A picture taken just moments ago. You're looking at pictures of Britain's Queen Elizabeth II on her way home from Washington after hosting a dinner for President and Mrs. Bush tonight at the British embassy. The party was to cap a

CNN's Richard Quest has been covering the story and joins me now.

So Richard, there's been a lot of chatter about the president's faux pas, first aging the queen about 200 years and then winking at her as his form of apology. Is the media blowing this out of proportion?

QUEST: I think the media has blown it completely out of proportion. But never be assured, the queen got her own back. She hasn't been on the throne for 50 plus years for nothing.

It happened here at the British embassy in Washington. Home turf for the return match. It was in with the one, in with the two and suddenly the president was reeling as the queen came up to give the toast. She got her own back.


QUEEN ELIZABETH II, UNITED KINGDOM: I don't know whether I should start this toast with saying, "When I was here in 1776," but nonetheless.


QUEST: What that showed, Anderson, is that the press has got this out of all proportion. In one fell swoop, her majesty managed to defuse the verbal time bomb that President Bush had let go.

Now are you ready for your ritual humiliation tonight?

COOPER: Yes, I am. Last night, just in case viewers didn't see it -- last night, you quizzed me on some etiquette. I failed miserably. So tonight what do you got?

QUEST: All right. It's a really easy one. OK, how many U.S. presidents has the queen had dinner with?

COOPER: Oh, goodness.

QUEST: Come on, we haven't got all night.

COOPER: Well, I don't know. She came to power what, in the early Fifties? So...

QUEST: 1953.

COOPER: 1953, well, I was close. I don't know. Ten.

QUEST: What?

COOPER: Ten. Ten.

QUEST: All right, all right, all right. You read that in the newspaper.

COOPER: No. Was that right? Is that really -- is that right?

QUEST: Yes, yes, yes. That was the easy bit.

Now which is the only U.S. president she hasn't had dinner with during her reign?

Come on, come on. We haven't got all night for this one. I'll tell you, it was President Johnson.

COOPER: Interesting. Was that something personal? Or she just didn't want to -- it just didn't happen?

QUEST: It was just -- just the right circumstances.

Anderson, I'm going to leave you here in Washington. But let me tell you, it's been a magnificent trip. The palace are pleased, the White House are pleased, the queen is pleased. So I really don't think I can do better.

We have so many toasts, toast this, toast that, toast the other. More toasts than a loaf of bread. Instead, I'm going to leave you with me own toast. As Dame Helen Mirren famously said when she picked up her Oscar, "I give you the queen."

COOPER: Richard Quest, thank you very much, sir. Have a good -- a safe journey back across the pond. Cheerio.

Up next on 360, another Brit who is incredibly popular here in America, and I'm not talking about David Beckham.

Plus, the latest on the fire burning in L.A.'s Griffith Park. It appears to be arson. It is burning dangerously close to the zoo. We'll have the latest.

Also tonight, chilling video aired on Arab TV of an apparent al Qaeda attack, next.


COOPER: "Shot of the Day" is coming up. A stark before and after look at Greensburg, Kansas, a town devastated by the tornado. But first, Erica hill joins me with a "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Erica.

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Anderson, Al Jazeera has broadcast video of what it says is a suicide bombing in Algeria last month that killed at least 24 people and wound more than 200 others.

The video was reported created in North Africa.

A federal judge dismissed an indictment against a CIA operative and anti-Castro militant. Luis Posado Carriles was charged with seven counts of immigration fraud. He was arrested two years ago, after prosecutors say he entered the country illegally. But today, the judge threw out Posado's interview with immigration authorities, saying it had been obtained unconstitutionally.

His lawyer put it more bluntly, saying they tricked him.

On Wall Street, the Dow's record run is over after closing at the top of territory in the last 24 of the last 27 sessions. The blue chips lost three today. The S&P fell one. The NASDAQ closed up slightly.

And Harry Potter, a huge hit on Really no surprise there. But get this. Here are the numbers. More than one million advanced orders for the upcoming book, "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows" have been sold by the online retailer. That book is scheduled for release on July 21, which is when, Anderson, my preordered book will be arriving.

But that's not the only book getting a little attention. Because as I understand it, one that I also need to preorder is the paperback edition of your book, my friend, also coming out, right?

COOPER: Yes, yes. Let me shamelessly plug here for a moment, if I may.

HILL: Please.

COOPER: It's out today, as a matter of fact.

HILL: Hey, good stuff.

COOPER: It's in bookstores now, and it's got a whole new chapter in it. There you go.

HILL: Oh, really?

COOPER: So if you've read it already, which I know you have, several times, there's even more now to read.

HILL: I look forward to it. I'm going to run to the bookstore downstairs.

COOPER: That would be good. I was going to say I'd send you one, but frankly...

HILL: You wouldn't make any money off it that way.

COOPER: Exactly. So, you know, I encourage you to go to the bookstore.

HILL: All right.

COOPER: Thanks. Appreciate you helping me in that shameless plug.

HILL: Any time.

COOPER: We should have a thing on the bottom of the screen, saying, "Shameless Plug."

HILL: I think the people have figured it out by now.

COOPER: I think so. Our viewers are smart that way.

Time for the "Shot of the Day". This was Greensburg, Kansas, before the deadly tornado here Friday night. That's what it looked like from the air. Now a closer look after the twister.

HILL: Wow.

COOPER: Look at the damage at the high school, a town literally wiped off the map. At least nine people were killed by the tornado. The mayor said today Greensburg's 1,600 residents will have to rebuild a brand-new town.

HILL: That is just wild when you see that view. I mean, you see the pictures of the destruction, but when you see the view like that, you can just see how it was wiped out. And the width of that twister is just insane.

COOPER: It is just terrible.

A reminder. Want you to send us your "Shot" ideas. If you see some amazing video, tell us about it: We'll put some of your best clips on the air.

Up next, breaking news. A fire burning in a park you've probably seen in the movies. A live report from Los Angeles next on 360.


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