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NANCY GRACE

Six Miners Trapped in Utah Coal Mine Cave-In

Aired August 6, 2007 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news. Trapped nearly 2,000 feet below ground -- six miners trapped tonight since 3:00 AM local time, Crandall Canyon mine, Emery County, Utah. The six may still be alive. The mine management tonight blaming an area earthquake, but are facts now pointing to a problem within the mine itself? The next few hours critical.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE Developing story out of Utah, rescue workers there searching for any signs of life right now after that early morning mine collapse, a collapse so powerful, officials actually thought it was an earthquake. Six miners are believed to be trapped down there -- thought to be trapped about 1,500 feet underground. So far, the rescue teams have not heard any sound from inside the mine. But we want to point out here this does not mean all hope is lost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a California judge goes on the offense to protect children. An admitted pedophile, Jack McClellan, runs a Web site rating local venues as to how many children predators can hope to find there, photos posted of unsuspecting children on libraries, playgrounds, you name it. Lawyers say he`s protected by the freedom of speech. Are our courts powerless to stop an admitted pedophile?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jack McClellan -- he`s that guy in California who exploited legal loopholes to run a Web site which blatantly promoted pedophilia...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It isn`t really just a sexual (INAUDIBLE) it`s the whole ambience of children that I enjoy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s been hit with a serious restraining order. The biggest headline? He can`t go within 30 feet of any child in California. It`s a big victory for the parents who feared McClellan and his camera, which he used to snap and upload photos of little girls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I thank you for being with us tonight. First, danger -- 1,500 feet below the surface of the earth, six coal miners may still be alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rescue workers were at a coal mine in central Utah, 140 miles south and east of Salt Lake, trying to reach six miners trapped after a cave-in. They were within 2,500 feet of where the miners believed to be working. A spokesperson for U.S. Mining Safety and Health Administration says first responders have not had any communication with the trapped miners. The Emery County Sheriff`s Department says the collapse occurred in Genwal Resources coal mine in Huntington canyon.

The collapse occurred about an hour after a seismic event which may or may not have been an actual earthquake but which measured 4.0 on several scales. Now the director of the University of Utah seismograph station said they`re not sure it was a quake. He said the reading may, in fact, have been caused because of the mine cave-in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know where these six people are. That`s one thing we`re knowing. I don`t think that`s the quickest way we`re going to get to them. And time is of the essence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It certainly is, those miners trapped since 3:00 AM How much food, how much water, how much air do they have? And what caused the mining crash?

Out to Dave Cawley, reporter with 570 KNRS AM radio. Dave, what`s the latest?

DAVE CAWLEY, 570 KNRS AM: The latest is there still has been no communication with these six miners. But in the daytime hours today, they`ve brought in a lot of heavy machinery. They are trying to drill down the entire 1,700 feet down to them, as well as going through a number of channels in the mine itself. They are saying that they believe there is enough oxygen and water in that mine. The owners of the mine say that. And they believe that it could take up to 48 hours just to punch through these coal walls and figure out whether or not these miners are, in fact, still alive or not.

GRACE: Out to Davitt McAteer, the former assistant secretary for Mine Safety and Health Administration, Dave the lead investigator in the Sago mine disaster just recently. Sir, thank you for being with us. How -- if the management has not been in touch with the six miners, how would they know the circumstances that they have food, water and air, Davitt?

DAVITT MCATEER, LEAD INVESTIGATOR IN SAGO MINE DISASTER: Well, they would know with regard to the air because of the requirements to have self- contained self-rescuers with them. And that requirement has been increased after Sago, so we know how many devices they have, and those devices can provide one hour of air in an emergency and can provide several hours in a resting situation, so they will have a count of how many devices they have underground.

They can have some idea as to the water that`s there because the water lines, et cetera. Now, those may be disrupted, but they would have taken water in with them. The time of the accident suggested that they would not have had lunch yet, so they would stretch their lunch, water and their food out in the underground setting. And if they get trapped behind a rock fall, they would try to, in fact, to lay all these -- you know, use the resources they had very sparingly until they can get -- because they know that people will try to come after them. So they would have some notion of that.

They should have an idea of where they were located, and they do suggest that they have -- in the press conference today -- that they have an idea of where they`re located. The question is now, is there enough time to get to them? What we learned after Sago was that we can get to people, it`s just a question of time.

GRACE: With me is Davitt McAteer, the former assistant secretary for Mine Safety and Health Administration, the lead investigator in the Sago mine disaster. Davitt, question. Government mine inspectors, according to my statistics, have issued 325 citations against this mine since January 2004. Does that pose a problem?

MCATEER: That`s a large number. It`s not a huge number. It`s not a number that is unheard of in terms of the number of mines. It would put this mine somewhere in the middle of the range because you can get citations for small things, as well as large things. What is troubling is that the most recent inspection had citations for escapeways, for accumulations of coal dust, for other kinds of things that might be related to this incident. But we don`t know the facts of those yet, but that is troubling, that the most recent inspection found some escapeway problems.

GRACE: And also to Davitt McAteer, the mine management is blaming this on an area earthquake. Now, I`m a little twisted around about how that can happen.

MCATEER: It doesn`t appear that that`s the case. Now, you don`t know the facts yet, but it does appear that the U.S. Geological Survey has pinpointed the location of this event to the mine itself, or very close to the mine. Events of this kind -- that is, roof falls or rock falls of substantial nature -- do, in fact, register on the seismic events at various locations throughout the country, and that`s happened in the past. It`s not unusual to get a seismic event in a mine, where you have a rock fall like this -- commonly, it`s called a rock burst or coal burst -- and you have an event where the earth moves, in effect. Mother Nature hates a vacuum...

GRACE: Right.

MCATEER: ... so she tries to correct it, so -- and that will happen, and then that`s recorded by the epicenters, and they say, Well, that`s an event. Well, that`s all that is. So what they were...

GRACE: So Davitt McAteer, what you`re saying, I think, is that the mine collapse itself could have registered on the Richter scale?

MCATEER: That`s happened before and...

GRACE: Right.

MCATEER: ... I expect it`s happened this time.

GRACE: OK. OK. Joining me right now, Hilary Gordon. This is Mayor Hilary Gordon, the mayor of Huntington, on the scene of the mine collapse. Mayor, thank you for being with us.

MAYOR HILARY GORDON, HUNTINGTON, UTAH: You`re welcome.

GRACE: Mayor, how is the community responding, especially in light of the 300-plus violations the mine has had since 2004?

GORDON: You know, as the regular, everyday people that live here -- the mine is about 14, 15 miles up Huntington Canyon, and we, of course, live in the community, unaware of all the violations. But I do know that the communities, the small communities that we have here -- there are eight different towns throughout this little Emery County. And the people here have been wonderful.

Just tonight, we are -- myself and the council have put together a hot meal for the families that are waiting here at this little area. They`re not up Huntington Canyon, they`re in a place in Huntington town. And the families all seem to be upbeat and very hopeful.

The people of these communities pull together at times of hardship, and when there`s troubles, then it`s amazing how many phone calls we`ve had and how many offers. And even though we brought the food in, I noticed as we brought the food in for a hot meal for these people and these families that have been staying here and waiting for word and update from the mine, that there were others that had brought stuff in, too. So everyone is so mindful in taking care of each other here.

GRACE: With me, a very special guest tonight. The mayor of Huntington is joining us. It is mayor Hilary Gordon. Mayor, what can you tell us about the six miners trapped below the surface. Who are they?

GORDON: You know, the names have not been released yet, and so that is not something that I can give out.

GRACE: I understand.

GORDON: They are local people, some from Huntington, some from the town of Cleveland. So maybe live as far away as Price, which is only about 20 miles away. But not all of the miners were actually from Huntington. They`re all very, very good men and all have families, and we are trying very desperately to care of their families tonight in the best way that we can because -- I know that it`s difficult when you live in a big area to kind of comprehend the lifestyle and how things can be in a small area and how people reach out to each other.

Myself, I was originally from London, and England, so this is a big switch for me to live now in a town of about 2,000 people. These are wonderful people, and they do a wonderful job of taking care of each other. And you know, they`re tough people, too. These people are -- a lot of them -- it`s a farming community, too, but the coal mines are the backbone of the economics here, and it affects -- it`s a domino effect that affects everybody, not just emotionally, but in other ways, too.

GRACE: Mayor Hilary Gordon with us, the mayor of Huntington. Mayor, have you spoken -- and I understand not revealing the names of the men trapped, so far below the surface, but have you spoken to the families? And how are they doing tonight?

GORDON: I have spoken to several of them, and like I said, we`re just here -- at this very moment, I`m up here in a little area right here at a little town hall place that we are serving some supper. And I have gone around and talked to several of the family members, and they`re holding up as well as can be expected.

They all are very, very anxious. And you know, as long as there isn`t bad news, there`s always hope. And even though, as I heard you say, the miners haven`t been heard from, per se, there is so much rock and debris between here and there. And it is not -- I want -- I want people to understand that it`s not a shaft-type mine, where they`re going directly down into the earth. They are going into the mountain, so it`s not -- it may go down a little bit and up a little bit, but it`s not like a down, down. It is going inwards.

And yes, they`re -- you know, any time that you go into those mines, no matter what, they`re -- they can spell trouble. My husband worked there for a few years, not at that particular mine but at a mine. And I had someone ask me today, Were you scared every day? No. No, I was not. There were some times where there were some difficult times and times where they had -- the sidewall would just kind of pop. Mother Nature has a way of just kind of popping and crackling and doing -- and sometimes rocks would pop out, and sometimes great big rocks. And so yes, there`s always a thought in the back of your mind, but you can`t go around each day fearing what`s going to happen.

GRACE: Mayor Hilary Gordon with us. Mayor, God bless you and what you are doing right now there with the families, trying to give them hot suppers, trying to keep their hope and their spirits up. And God bless them, too. With us, a very special guest, mayor of Huntington, Hilary Gordon.

Let`s go to the lines. Fran in West Virginia. Hi, Fran.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are the underground safety -- state safety regulations, mine safety regulations?

GRACE: Excellent question. We`ve got an expert to answer you. Davitt McAteer is with us. What are the safety regulations that would cover this circumstance, Davitt?

MCATEER: Well, they have -- Utah has its own mine safety law, and you have the federal law, as well, that govern these. The company has to come in with a plan to mine, and that plan is approved by the agency. Then the company goes in and prepares that.

The situation that the mayor mentioned, the fact that you have some pops and some bursts, is really a phenomenon that occurs sometimes anyplace in the world, but it is prone to occur in that particular part of Utah. And that`s where you have some outbursts of where the pressure from the surrounding rock pushes the coal or the rock next to it and causes that to burst out. And those have to be reported, and you try to take precautions against it.

It`s a difficult phenomenon because of the fact that you`ve got this 1,500 foot of drop (ph), and this area of the mining world is prone to this kind of problem. And so you have reporting requirements with regard to that. You have requirements with regard to the self-contained self- rescuers.

GRACE: OK...

MCATEER: You have requirements with regard to communications, et cetera.

GRACE: Now, Davitt McAteer, very quickly, you`re referring to what I`ve read about as a rock burst, where certain rocks just suddenly burst out, and it starts basically a domino effect of other rocks. Could the mine have done something to cause a rock burst that resulted in this disaster, or is it an act of Mother Nature?

MCATEER: Well, it`s a naturally occurring phenomenon. The question is, is the mine -- you know, is it prepared for these? And I couldn`t answer the question. That would be speculation. But we know that that`s going to occur, and we know we have to prepare for it.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Tracy in Texas. Hi, Tracy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love you.

GRACE: Thank you for watching.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a quick question for you.

GRACE: Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If these people had been fined, you said, I think 32 times this year...

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... 14 of those being...

GRACE: Serious.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... cited as serious personal injury, what have you, what can they do to stop this and maybe close these mines until these people start taking this seriously?

GRACE: You know, back to Davitt McAteer, what can be done?

MCATEER: Well, this type of mining, the retreat mining, is a technique that has some perils with it, and you`ve got to take particular preventive steps. In this particular area, you`ve got to take preventive steps to deal with this pressure buildup. You have to do these inspections.

And the fact that the inspector found that there were some violations there with regard to the escapeways, those are important steps that have been taken. What can be taken -- no mine -- you know, there are no conditions that`s going to be perfect, but these conditions are ones that we have to deal with, particularly as we get into the lower seams of coal, the coal that we have to bring out...

GRACE: Right.

MCATEER: ... and we`re going to have to deal with this kind of problem.

GRACE: Back out to Dave Cawley, reporter with 570 KNRS AM radio there in Salt Lake City. What type of mine is this? What are they mining for?

CAWLEY: They`re mining coal and lots of it. This mine is in the epicenter of essentially Utah`s mining industry. There`s three counties right in central Utah that all have these active mines. In fact, there are 12 active coal mines, and I believe in total, 35, so a number of dormant mines, as well. And there are actually portions of this mine that are dormant, and that`s part of where they`re hoping to punch through and maybe gain a little bit more access, going through some of these closed shafts. But specifically, they bring heavy machinery in on these open almost roads under the mountain, and they pull these 12 to 16-foot veins of coal right out of the mountain.

GRACE: Back to Mayor Hilary Gordon. She is the mayor of Huntington, joining us tonight. She`s there on the scene of the mine collapse. Mayor, describe their efforts. How have they -- you were telling me this is not a mine that goes straight down. It goes in, then over, then up, then in, going into the side of the mountain. How are they -- how is the rescue attempt proceeding? I mean, how are they trying to get to them?

GORDON: Actually, I am not up in -- as I, you know, said before, I`m not up the 15 miles up in there because there I would be in the way. Here I can do some good.

GRACE: You certainly can.

GORDON: But as I understand, the mine -- it`s -- they follow the veins of cola, and usually, they are pretty direct, but sometimes they have to do some jogging through and around. And they put up these great big timbers and roof bolts, enormous pieces of equipment that most of us are not even aware of, and they go ahead and do this and...

GRACE: Right.

GORDON: ... they have all kinds of safety equipment in there. And I know that right now, it`s difficult for them to just go in and start digging that out. They have to put up as they go in and take some of these big chunks of rock and coal out. They can`t just do that because there would be more collapsing. So they do have to reinforce. That`s why it seems to the average person that it`s probably a slower recovery effort than -- you know, and a rescue than it should be.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some miners were able to get out, but at least six are still unaccounted for and presumed to be trapped inside of the mine. This is a coal mine. Whether they were underneath the area where the mine collapsed or behind it and just can`t get out, no one knows at this point. We are told that this mine is not one where there are those dangerous mine gases, so of course, that`s good news both for the miners and the rescuers who are going in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Tonight, the mining management insisting that a nearby earthquake is the cause of the mine collapse. Six men buried tonight, could still be alive.

Out to the lines. Teresa in Ohio. Hi, Teresa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. God bless you for the work that you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, when these mines receive citations, are they just written warnings or are they fined a substantial amount of money?

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks. Mike, what can you tell us? These guys have been cited many, many times, over 300 times since 2004.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, you know, we heard Mr. McAteer say that as mines go, this is kind of in the middle because there`s a lot of violations that the federal safety inspectors, the mine safety inspectors, will issue these mines on a regular basis.

Now, there are inspectors there on the scene right now kind of overseeing what is going on there in the rescue efforts to make sure that some of the ones -- more recent violations -- because the escapeways, those are the ways in and out when something like this happens. They want to make sure that something like this does not happen again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are trying to gain access to these men four different ways, and one of these will get to them first. It`s just a matter of which one. And of course, we`ll all be here until we get them out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Six miners may still very well be alive tonight, trapped nearly 2,000 feet below the earth`s surface.

Mike Brooks, new info?

BROOKS: Yes, Nancy, we`re hearing that, apparently, tomorrow morning, a helicopter is going to be bringing a drilling rig on top of the mountain, so it gives them another option of trying to drill down, as well as drilling vertically into the side of the mountain.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Joe in Tennessee. Hi, Joe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just the number of violations that you have mentioned, 325 in three-plus years -- seems like they`re having an average of about 100 violations a year. Is there a certain amount of violations that are allowed each year or anything before the place is shut down? And also, are the employees that work for the mines made aware of these violations as they happen?

GRACE: I think the employees are made aware. However, I have never heard of a limit because a lot of these violations have been deemed insignificant. I do know that the owners since 2004, Joe in Tennessee, has been fined over $152,000.

To Marc Siegel, Dr. Marc Siegel. Very quickly, how long can they last?

DR. MARC SIEGEL, INTERNIST: Well, you know, Nancy, that has a lot to do with whether they`re under water because if they had a crush injury, it`s shorter. If they`re not calm, it`s shorter. If they had some carbon monoxide, it`s shorter. If they`re wet, it`s 50, 60 degrees, a couple of days is probably all they can last.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the search and rescue for those six miners continues this afternoon. They have trapped for hours now. They are inside what is known as the Genwal mine.

At 2:48 a.m., a 4.0 magnitude earthquake hit in this same area, and then at 3:50 a.m. the report of the mine collapse came in. Now, there is still some question over whether the mine collapse was what registered as the earthquake or if the earthquake made the mine unstable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The six men may very well still be alive. A new form of drilling starting tomorrow morning, we are told. I want to go to back to Dr. Marc Siegel, internist and author. Dr. Siegel, I don`t quite understand what you were trying to tell me about the factors that can determine how long they could stay alive.

DR. MARC SIEGEL, AUTHOR OF "FALSE ALARM": Well, Nancy, the first issue is, are they getting enough oxygen? And the canisters are not going to last very long, so they have to be a pocket of oxygen to really stay alive. Then there`s the issue of the temperature down there.

GRACE: A pocket of oxygen, what do you mean by that?

SIEGEL: Right. Well, it depends where they are after everything collapsed. Are they wearing oxygen? Are they staying calm enough so that they can get to a place where there`s breathable air?

GRACE: What does that have to do with it?

SIEGEL: Well, if the air runs out, they`re not going to last at all.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait, you said if they`re calm.

SIEGEL: Well, they`re more than likely to become a team and work together to find a solution to this if they stay calm.

GRACE: Are you saying, Dr. Siegel, that if you`re excited that you use more oxygen?

SIEGEL: Not only do you use more oxygen, but you don`t think as clearly. Plus in a situation of hypothermia -- we`re talking 50 to 60 degrees down there -- and if there`s water, they don`t last as long, and they become confused from the low temperature. So that interferes with their ability to find the solution. We know it`s 50 to 60 degrees this time of year down there. The water makes it worse. If they`re partly immersed in water, they`re not going to last more than a day or two.

GRACE: To David Cawley, reporter from 570 KNRS AM radio joining us from Salt Lake, Dave, question, how do we know -- I mean, the owner, I guess it was the owner or the manager, said they have food and water. How do we know that?

DAVE CAWLEY, REPORTER: Well, he uses the word "belief," but in terms of the water, we do know that they have the water because there are water stations placed at certain intervals within the mine. He also pointed out that the cave mine shaft, whatever you want to call it, in and of itself is wet and that in an emergency these miners could actually survive off of gathering water inside the mine. It is actually potable. They could survive that way.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Tommy in Texas. Hi, Tommy.

CALLER: Hi.

GRACE: How are you, dear?

CALLER: Fine. You`re an angel, Nancy. My question is, you know, we live in this age of communication. And why can`t these miners be equipped with a communication device that they could, you know, talk to people, the rescuers, and give them an idea that they`re OK, you know?

GRACE: You know what, Tommy? I`ve been thinking the same thing. We could put a man on the moon but we can`t communicate with people 1,500 feet into a mountain?

Out to you, Mike Brooks. How is it that you could tell me all about picking up a ping on a cell phone, and narrow it down to a block, but what are the communications within the mines?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Well, Nancy, most of time in a situation like this, it`s all line of sight, because to have a radio system, you have to have some kind of repeater system that can send signals from one place to another. And because the thick stone there, you`re not going to be able to get a radio frequency to go through there.

So when they finally get down into that shaft or along one of the veins, if they are in line of sight, then they will be able to have some communications. But until then, I doubt if they`re going to have any communications at all. And so far, they`ve had no communications with the six miners up to now.

GRACE: Are there any mines that you know of -- and you studied this very carefully -- that have a communication system within the mine?

BROOKS: Not that I know of, Nancy. You know, there are some technologies but for the most part, no.

GRACE: Out to Amy in Ohio. Hi, Amy.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I actually have a couple questions for you. The first one, my husband`s a miner, and they have numerous escape routes, so if one breezeway is collapsed, you know, they have another route to get out. Is there any possibility that they are en route to a different place that they`re concentrating all of this time and effort on this one particular place where they could possibly be walking out or walking to another shaft?

GRACE: Excellent question, Amy in Ohio.

CALLER: And I also wanted to know, they were talking about the oxygen. My husband carries -- rescuers is what they call them. Do they have rescuers or do they have re-breathers that don`t actually have the canisters, but convert their actual breathing back into...

GRACE: Right, re-breathers, right, commonly used by divers. You don`t carry a tank on your back. You re-breathe in your own exhale, and it is re-tooled into oxygen. Excellent question. Amy, I can tell you really know what you`re talking about.

Out to David Cawley with 570 KNRS AM radio, Dave, what type of rescue alternative routes are there? And do we know if they carry O2 oxygen rescuers, or re-breathers?

CAWLEY: From what we understand, the mine, the management feels like these guys are in one spot. Even though there are multiple access routes, it sounds like they`re all blocked off, but they`re confident that they`re located in one area. That`s why they`re going to drill from the top into that one area. That`s why they`re trying to punch through that one area. They feel confident that, if they get through one of these ways, they`ll find all six.

GRACE: So they are familiar with the escape routes, so they must believe that they have isolated where these six men are. And what can you tell me about the oxygen rescuer that a lot of miners carry, like Amy`s husband or re-breathers?

CAWLEY: You know, we haven`t heard anything specific from mine management whether or not they feel these guys were carrying re-breathers. There`s a good chance that these guys were maintenance crews that were in there overnight. I`ve been told that a lot of the mining activity actually happens in the day. Maintenance crews go in and work on the machinery at night. Whether or not they`re equipped the same way is a very good question and hopefully mine management will be more forthcoming with.

We do know that they went in there with food. We do know that there is water in there. It would be a very critical oversight if there wasn`t some type of emergency oxygen re-breather system, as well.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Susan Moss out of New York, Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer in San Francisco, Randy Zelin, also out of New York.

First to you, Susan Moss, what about all these prior citations?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. The first thing that the lawyers are going to do is to look at causation. And the first question is whether all these citations listed by the authorities, whether any of them led to this tragic disaster.

The next question is, was there a defect in the design of the mine? Was it built in such a way that a collapse could have been foreseeable? The next question that`s going to come is whether there was any negligence, whether it be on the part of the company or any group of individuals who were working for that company that led to this tragic collapse? In the event that there was an earthquake that led to this collapse, the question then is whether such an earthquake was foreseeable. Once we find out why, then we can start looking at who.

GRACE: Anne Bremner?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, the thing is, earthquakes aren`t generally foreseeable. I`m out here in San Francisco, which is earthquake country, and, of course, Seattle, as well. Some pets kind of get a sense about earthquakes in advance, and, of course, there`s some predictability with seismic activity, but the thing is, this was an act of God, in terms what we know right now. And you don`t say, "Show me a mine, I`ll write you a tragedy that these things happen all the time." There seems to have been seismic activity. So in liability right now, it may be an act of God and the act of nobody else or negligence of anybody else that caused this tragedy.

GRACE: To Randy Zelin, I hear what Anne Bremner is saying, and I know that that is the line of the mine management. But according to Davitt McAteer, he`s now backing off the possibility that an earthquake caused this.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think you have the old which came first, the chicken or the egg.

GRACE: You wish.

ZELIN: You`ve got to determine...

GRACE: No, there`s going to be an answer to this. We`re going to find out, was there an earthquake? Or did the mine collapse simply cause the Richter scale to...

ZELIN: That`s exactly my point. You have to first figure out, and it`s going to be a battle of the experts. Did the seismic activity happen as a result of the burst? Or was there seismic activity which caused the burst? Then you can deal with foreseeability, causation, fault and all of that stuff.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Sheila in Indiana. Hi, Sheila.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. We love you, hon.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: I live in coal mine country, and I understand there`s state and federal inspectors. How often is this mine inspected by either state or federal?

GRACE: Good question. David Cawley with 570 KNRS, I believe they`re inspected every year. What can you tell me?

CAWLEY: Well, I think the number of citations that you have quoted should give you a good idea of how often these places are inspected, more often by the federal authorities, I believe, than the state authorities here.

GRACE: Right.

CAWLEY: But more than once a year, absolutely.

GRACE: And to Dr. Robi Ludwig, when these guys, when these people go into the mine, do you believe they close off in their minds the possibility of disaster?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I`m sure a part of them is aware of that, but we like to think that the situations we`re going into are safe or somehow we will be safe, unless you have a self-destructive personality. But it just sounds like these guys were doing their job and had every expectation that they would return home OK.

GRACE: When we come back, an admitted pedophile goes public with stalking little girls. Is the court powerless to protect these little children?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AIDAN PICKERING, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Do you think, Mr. McClellan, that you are sick and that you need help?

JACK MCCLELLAN, ADMITTED PEDOPHILE: No, I don`t, but, of course, I`m not a psychiatrist and it`s just my own opinion.

PICKERING: How long do you plan to be in Southern California?

MCCLELLAN: I can see myself living here possibly for the rest of my life.

PICKERING: Let me ask you one question that I think a lot of Southern Californians are thinking right now. Why don`t you, Jack McClellan, go away, a long way away?

MCCLELLAN: Just like out in the desert and just stay there, or just a mile in the middle of the ocean?

PICKERING: For example.

MCCLELLAN: I actually thought about that. When I came down here, I went through southeastern Oregon, which is probably the most deserted places in the continental U.S. I mean, I went out there to look at the stars, because the sky`s real black. And I gave that some thought. And I thought, would I be happy in a place like this, just staring into space 24/7 for the rest of my life, with no real urban amusements?

PICKERING: Are little girls your urban amusements?

MCCLELLAN: Well, part of it. There`s a lot of other stuff going on here, obviously.

PICKERING: Do you know how sick and twisted that sounds?

MCCLELLAN: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I wish he was out in the wilderness looking at the stars as opposed to stalking libraries, public libraries, local events, playgrounds, and then posting on a Web site, almost like a Zagat`s for pedophiles, where other pedophiles can watch and stalk little children. I want to go out to Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted," Jon, what`s this guy all about?

JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": This guy is disgusting, Nancy. The only thing good about Jack McClellan is the fact that we know what he looks like and we know what he sounds like. And most pedophiles, as you know, lurk in the shadows. At least we know that this pedophile is out there and we know to look for him.

This guy created a how-to encyclopedia on his Web site, a how-to for pedophiles. He would rate public places where you could go and find the best looking what he called LGs, little girls. Absolutely disgusting. He even snapped pictures of little girls and told pedophiles where they could find these girls.

GRACE: To Aidan Pickering, investigative reporter, he interviewed self-proclaimed pedophile Jack McClellan. What did you learn, Aidan?

AIDAN PICKERING, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, one thing is for sure, that he wants to stay in Southern California, and he wants to continue doing this work that he does online, which is, as you say, kind of make a Zagat`s survey of all the public places in Southern California so that other pedophiles can have a look at it. And obviously, the community here is absolutely up in arms. They think that he`s sick, that he`s twisted. Unfortunately, law enforcement`s having a hard time finding any law that he`s broken.

GRACE: Oh, really? I want to go to Anthony Zinnanti, he`s the lead attorney against Jack McClellan. Can`t we compare this safely to a stalker, or a man that threatens to kill his wife, or beat his wife, or hurt his wife, and you get a TRO against them?

ANTHONY ZINNANTI, LEAD ATTORNEYS AGAINST MCCLELLAN: Well, I think Jack McClellan is a time bomb waiting to go off, which is why I brought the injunction proceeding. The case that was presented so repulsed the judge that the judge issued the order in good conscience that he not come within 30 feet of a kid. There`s a reason the judge did it, more than the fact that the judge doesn`t like pedophiles.

GRACE: And so to you, Anne Bremner, what`s the defense? Why can`t this judge order him to stay away from children? What`s your problem with that, Bremner?

BREMNER: Because it`s a status crime, Nancy. He`s done nothing yet. He`s committed no crimes whatsoever. He`s been up in Seattle for a long time where they could -- they were scratching their heads, because there was nothing they could do against him.

The fact is, he hasn`t acted. And so therefore this restraining order, it says to stop harassment, but there hasn`t been harassment, so there`s nothing to stop. So the fact is, right now, he`s got First Amendment rights, and he should not be restrained.

GRACE: Well, Susan Moss, this is what I don`t understand. People get TROs, temporary restraining orders, orders of protection all the time. What`s wrong with this judge`s order?

MOSS: Absolutely nothing. There is no absolute First Amendment right to freedom of speech. You can`t go into a theater and scream, "Fire," and you can`t go on the Internet and write a how-to book of how to molest. Obviously, this upset the judge so that he closed California for this guy, and for good reason.

GRACE: And to you, Randy Zelin?

ZELIN: Welcome to the police state of California.

GRACE: Oh, good God in heaven.

ZELIN: This is a travesty. It`s a sad day. It`s not just about a pedophilia.

GRACE: You know, you need to go join the ACLU.

ZELIN: It`s not, because you know something? What`s going to be next? Because now we have judges passing on thoughts, passing on desires. It`s not a crime to be a pedophiliac. A pedophiliac is someone who thinks bad things. You`ve got to go after people who act.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... looks at Barney -- you know who Barney is, right, Zelin?

ZELIN: Oh, yes, I do.

GRACE: The child`s character, only because he says, "I`ve seen some cute LGs." In fact, he goes on to tell pedophiles where they can stalk little girls at picnics, at public events, at playgrounds, at parks. It`s disgusting.

ZELIN: But this judge is saying -- he`s not stopping Jack McClellan. He`s just saying, "Do it someplace else."

GRACE: Joining me is Ron Tebo. He is the creator of the anti-Jack McClellan web site. Sir, thank you for being with us. What led you to create this Web site?

RON TEBO, CREATOR OF ANTI-JACK MCCLELLAN WEB SITE: Thank you for having me. What happened was, Jack inspired me back in March, I want to say. I was watching his interview on FOX News. And being a victim of child abuse, something just clicked in my head. I just had to take action against this man. Enough with the abuse; enough abuse with the children in America. I`m tired of it.

GRACE: Tell me the name of your Web site.

TEBO: JackMcClellan.com.

GRACE: www.JackMcClellan.com, an adult child molestation victim, Ron Tebo, speaking out.

And, Jon Leiberman, with "America`s Most Wanted," this guy is actually living off Social Security with a disability called depression. But wasn`t he just on a plane to make a TV appearance in Chicago? That doesn`t sound disabled. I`m paying this guy to be a pedophile.

LEIBERMAN: Our taxpayer dollars are helping to support a pedophile. And as one of the attorneys suggested, to suggest the fact that we have to wait until this guy does something to one of our kids is absolutely ridiculous and ludicrous.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUDWIG: Tonight, one of these people will be given $25,000. They don`t actually have to do anything to be awarded the cash prize. Instead, a panel of ordinary members of the public will be judging them and their lives, and ultimately deciding who should and shouldn`t get the money. But can they decide without prejudice?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, that is our very own Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist, author, contributor to magazine, and practicing doctor with her own show. In a nutshell, what is it, Dr. Robi?

LUDWIG: It`s basically a show that asks people, can they make a judgment without prejudice? And we have five panelists who are judging contestants for a $25,000 prize. It is not P.C. You will hear everything in this show.

GRACE: What do you mean it`s not P.C.?

LUDWIG: Well, people will say things that you don`t generally hear people talking about, about racism, ageism, homosexuality, parenting, gun control. We have very vocal people on the show that are basically saying what a lot of people think. So we`re hoping that the audience will basically not only question the contestants and the judges, but also think about their own judgments and biases that they hold.

GRACE: So, OK, let me get this straight. What does the panel do?

LUDWIG: The panel is judging the contestants based on first impression, how they live their lives. There is a secret camera component, and they`re trying to decide...

GRACE: I don`t like the sound of that secret camera component.

LUDWIG: ... I know, I know -- who is most worthy, and it`s very interesting how they make this decision.

GRACE: OK, now, Robi, can viewers submit questions?

LUDWIG: They can submit questions. There`s an interactive component. We have a blog. We have polls. We really want to hear what people are thinking, and we hope to raise social consciousness.

GRACE: "Without Prejudice," Tuesdays, 9:00 p.m. Eastern on the network GSN.

LUDWIG: That`s right.

GRACE: Our own Dr. Robi Ludwig, a star!

LUDWIG: Ah! Well, I hope you enjoyed us.

GRACE: You know, I want to get on that panel. I want to find out...

LUDWIG: I want you on my panel!

GRACE: I want to get on that panel. Dr. Robi, thank you for sharing.

LUDWIG: Thank you.

GRACE: Let`s stop, everyone, to remember Army Specialist Eric Holke, 31, Crestline, California, killed, Iraq. On a third tour, he loved history, working with autistic children back home as a teacher`s assistant. He dreamed of earning a master`s degree, making a documentary. Leaves behind grieving widow, Cassidhe, 16-year-old stepson, Steven, Eric Holke, American hero.

Thank you for inviting us into your homes. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END