Return to Transcripts main page


Progress in Utah Mine Cave-In; Presidential Debate in Spanish

Aired August 8, 2007 - 20:00   ET


RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Carol. Hi, everybody.
I want to show you something. See that mountain back there? For the first time, we are going to actually be able to go in to where that cave-in is. Our Gary Tuchman following that story for us.

And look at this. Remember that guy yesterday? Look at the expression on his face. He is going after the guy who killed his son. And he is just filled with rage. How would you feel? Well, we've got some new information about him. Police are telling us this could have been a whole lot worse.

Speaking of court stories, look at that guy. He's spitting at some of the officers while they're trying to take him into the courtroom. There it is. And guess what? He's got hepatitis. This is what we're following OUT IN THE OPEN.

What? A presidential debate in Espanol? This guy's ready to go, but who else? Should there even a presidential debate in Spanish?

She says he isn't getting enough attention because he isn't like her or him. What? No room for a white male in U.S. politics?

And wham, it's out of here! Just look at the fight for the ball in a country where winning is everything. Is Barry Bonds our nation's poster child for cheating? Is he to blame, or are we? We are bringing it OUT IN THE OPEN.

Hello again everybody, I'm Rick Sanchez. Tonight's top story, finally some progress. They might be able to reach where the trapped miners are after all. The reason -- let me show it to you.

You see that drill? It's right there to the right of your screen. They are going to be using that to try and at least get to where the trapped miners are.

Now that may not mean that they're going to be able to get them out right away, but it does mean progress because the drill is already, we're told, a third of the way through.

CNN's Ted Rowlands is live in central Utah. He's been following this story. He's joining us now. Ted, bring us up to date on what the difference that this drill can actually make, if any.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Rick, the drill is a two- inch hole, basically, drilling a two-inch hole. And you mentioned the progress, a third of the way down. That was at 7 a.m. this morning.

So now at 6:00 p.m. local time, there should be significantly more progress. We'll get an update from Bob Murray.

But what that will do is hopefully do hit the pocket where these miners are believed to be, that will allow them air, water and communication. Bob Murray just left this school, briefing the relatives of the loved ones of the six miners that are trapped. He is now headed to brief the media.

Here is what was said earlier about the drill earlier this morning.


BOB MURRAY, MURRAY ENERGY: The 2.5-inch hole from a drilling rig brought in by a helicopter. As of 7:00 a.m. this morning, was down 450 feet on the 1,500 foot path to where we know the miners are trapped.


ROWLANDS: Now that drill is in addition to another drill that has already started this morning as well. That is an 8-plus inch hole. They're hoping they can pinpoint exactly where these miners are, and if they are alive, Rick, these drills will enable not only communication, but air if they need it. And most likely they'll definitely water and food. The problem, how long will it take to get to these miners? That is another story. These guys will be in this mine for at least a week, probably more, if they are alive.

SANCHEZ: Yes, what you're talking about is actually not being able to extricate them with this drill, but at least being able to get something down there, maybe a camera, maybe food, maybe water, maybe find out if they are dead or alive, right?

ROWLANDS: Exactly, establish communication, give them sustenance and hopefully tell them it is going to be awhile before we can come and get you, because it's at least a week more that these guys are going to be in this mine, if they're alive.

SANCHEZ: Ted Rowlands, good job following that story for us, we thank you.

Do you know how far away they usually keep us reporters when we cover stories like this? The last time I covered one of these in West Virginia, one of these mine cave-ins, I never even came within a mile of the actual entrance. That's customary.

The reason I'm telling you this is because tonight CNN's Gary Tuchman was allowed to actually go up to the mine entrance with members of the rescue committee. That's unique. Gary got a chance to join us now. Gary, what did you get?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are not being allowed inside the Crandall Canyon mine, but we're being allowed very close to the opening.

This is where the miners go in. Exactly here is where 10 miners went in early Monday morning to start their work. Six remain inside. A truck takes them up -- that conveyor belt is used to take the coal away.

But according to the owner of the mine, the miners are 17,400 feet in that direction -- 17,400 away. And right now, they're not very close to getting them out.

This conveyor belt takes the coal once it comes out. And you see the pile right here of coal. This is the last coal to come out before the disaster.

According to the owner of the mine, that coal hasn't seen the light of day for millions of years. We want to show you now what they're using to stabilize the tunnel for the workers. Over here is what they call rock props. These rock props weigh about 100 pounds a piece. You can see they're holding it up right now demonstrating. They are using this to stabilize the walls for the workers who go inside the mine.

The walls right now are very tenuous, it's very dangerous. They say there has been seismic activity here over the last day and a half. They said there was a danger that more miners might lose their lives, the rescue miners, so they pulled out.

They're just resuming the work now. They hope that these rock props stabilize the walls enough to make it remain safe.

But at this point, we won't know until at least Friday if these miners are alive or dead. They plan to do that with small holes, two small holes that they're boring into the top of this mine and hope then to lower cameras and microphones into the mine to know if these miners are alive. If they are alive, it will take at least a week, and the owner of the mine saying maybe even more, to get them out.

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you something that everyone has been asking me. This guy Bob Murray, the president of the mine company you keep referring to, what a character. You got a chance to spend some time with him. Is he the real deal? Is he just like he is during his news conferences, highly intense?

TUCHMAN: It's really interesting, Rick. During these news conferences he has been authoritative, brash, confrontational, critical. He's been a tough guy. And today at the time, I got a chance to talk to him and I walked up to ask a question. Before I even asked the question, he kind of just grabbed my arm and held onto my arm without saying anything. I thought that was rather unusual. He looked at me and he said I'm nothing. I'm just the communicator here. He kind of had tears in his eyes. I said, how are you coping? He said not very well. He really is a very complex man. Also, Rick, while I was at the mine I talked about the danger of going inside during this rescue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DARREL LEONARD, MINE RESCUE WORKER: We proceed very professionally and cautiously. Tense, yes. You need to be tense, you need to be aware of your surroundings, and not just sight, but sound. It is a very tense situation for these men.


TUCHMAN: I think what's really important to point out, Rick, is this is like the real life soap opera. We expect, if this owner is correct, that by this Friday, two days from now, we will find out definitively if these miners are dead or alive.

These two holes that Ted was talking about, they are going to have cameras, they're going to have, microphones, food and water. And this owner said if there is no sign of life, he believes that means they did not survive. So we should know by Friday what happened.

SANCHEZ: Wow. And by the way, we just saw that picture a moment ago of you and your new found friend Robert Murray. Mr. Tuchman, thank you so much for that report, good stuff. We'll be getting back to you.

Now somebody who's been through the agony of a mine tragedy is going to join us next. His name is Greg Phillips. He actually lost a cousin in last year's Sago mine disaster, which we covered here extensively out in West Virginia. He is also a former miner and mine rescuer, so he's really just the right person to talk to about something the rest of us have a tough time understanding. And let me start with this. If these miners are alive, can you make us understand what they're going through? What are the conditions like? What are they seeing? What are they doing?

GREG PHILLIPS, FORMER MINER: Well, They are protecting themselves right now. They are trained coal miners. They are a tough, very, very tough breed of individuals.

I'm sure they have plenty of knowledge about what they need to do and what they have to do in order to stay alive. I feel that they are alive. I feel that they will be able to bore into them and they will be able to signal back. Once that's done, I think.

SANCHEZ: Let me just stop you for a moment because you just said you think that they are alive. Why would you say that?

PHILLIPS: There is no reason not to think that they're alive. They don't have a situation that most miners do when there is an explosion and carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide kills -- it's odorless and colorless and you just go right to sleep and that's the end of your life.

These gentlemen are trapped behind a fault or whatever has transpired and taken place there. So I'm hoping they are in an area where there is a lot of breathing oxygen for them and I hope they have food and water to last three or four waters.

SANCHEZ: Why would you say they have enough food and water for three or four days? Is it customary for them to have food on them?

PHILLIPS: Working in the mines for 20 years, you pretty well fill up your dinner bucket, as I have many, many times. And with enough water for a couple of days, and enough sandwich and stuff to make sure that you will have plenty to eat for a few days.

SANCHEZ: What if I ask you the same question a week from now? Do you think that would still be your answer or do you think by then it would be real tough to be able to say that they're still alive?

PHILLIPS: No, I believe that they are still alive. I believe what we need to concentrate now is the families and make sure that they are knowledgeable about the rescue and everything that's going on.

Our governor Joseph Mansion came to the mine in Sago when we had our disaster and he stayed with the people there, the families and everything, for the length of the time.

And I think that's what needs to happen now. We need to support the families and make sure that they understand what's transpiring and keep them informed of everything and make sure they are taken care of.

SANCHEZ: We are down to -- let me just stop you for a minute because we are down to 30 seconds. My producers are telling me we have to move on. But this is important for the rest of us to try to understand. Why is it so difficult for us to get to them? Can you make us understand why there isn't a standardized system or way of dealing with the situation like this, so they enact it immediately and right away in every case like this? Why are we hearing so many different answers and so many different methods. One failed, we're going to try another one.

PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, you have to drive straight through them to get to them. Sometimes that doesn't happen. Sometimes -- in this case they had another additional fall. And all the hard work that they did was blocked by a fall or a rock or some kind of bump. So that's a situation where you just have to adapt and overcome and that's what they will have to do in order to get these miners out and get them home safely.

SANCHEZ: Greg Phillips, you're fun to talk to you, you really understand your stuff. It's a pleasure. Hopefully we will be talking to you again on better circumstances.

We are going to switch gears now and do a little presidential politics, maybe like you have never heard of before. Take a listen to this.

OK, Christopher Dodd and I have done it on my weekend show, speaking Spanish. Big deal, right? Does that mean because you speak Spanish that we need to have a presidential debate? Should the questions be in Spanish?

Also, check out these signs. See them right here? They are mostly in Spanish, right? Well there's a guy in this neighborhood, he decided he was going to put up a sign in English and he has been evicted. Discrimination? We want you to tell us and we're going to ask him. He's going to join us.

And then, we've got an important new development in that execution-style killing of three students in one of America's toughest cities. We're all over this one. We'll be right back. Stay with us, OUT IN THE OPEN.


SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.

Did you know next month for the very first time, there will actually be presidential debates in Spanish? The Spanish language network Univision is hosting them and is going to have all the candidates comments then translated live. That is if any of the candidates actually show up. You see, that's still a big if. Most of them haven't accepted yet the invitation. So that makes this somewhat controversial and even questionable. Here's Susan Candiotti from Miami with more.


SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Candidates who try mightily to peak Spanish -- and those who speak it fluently won't have to worry about it during Spanish language Univision network's upcoming historic presidential forum, the first ever with a simultaneous translation, expected to draw a huge Spanish- speaking nationwide TV audience.

MARIA ELENA SALINAS, UNIVISION: Spanish is something that unites all Hispanics. It's a matter of pride to Latinos to have them address them in their own language.

CANDIOTTI: Yet a month out, John McCain is the only double-digit GOP contender to commit and leading Democrats Clinton, Obama and Edwards have not yet said yes.

Univision's Maria Elena Salinas says no shows do so at their own risk.

SALINAS: I think it's possible that some voters might take that as a personal insult or might take that as a lack of interest on their part.

CANDIOTTI: A risky gamble. Traditionally, Democrats win the Latino vote, but consultants warn it cannot be taken for granted. In a recent Gallup poll, Hillary Clinton was the choice of 55 percent among Democratic Hispanics, 43 points over Barack Obama.

DARIO MORENO, UNIV. OF MIAMI: Republicans aren't going to win this vote, but they can sure cut into it if they run a correct campaign.

CANDIOTTI: Historically, Republican presidential candidates have needed at least 30 percent of the Hispanic vote to win. Republican Tom Tancredo is dead set against Univision's translated format.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We should not be doing things that encourage people to stay separate in a separate language.


CANDIOTTI: Univision says it's not about doing things separately, it's about helping voters make an educated decision. Susan Candiotti, CNN, Miami.

SANCHEZ: All right, thank you Susan.

Let's go to our OUT IN THE OPEN panel now. First of all, Air America radio host Rachel Maddow and Keith Boykin, best-selling author and host of BET's "My Two Cents." Hope to get a couple more than that today. And Republican strategist Cheri Jacobus is joining us. Good idea or bad idea Cheri, start us off.

CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, I think it should be up to each campaign to decide where they're going to debate and where they're going to go. The fact is, we are just -- we've got debate fatigue at this point.

People aren't even watching them and I don't think what a lot of people realize, unless you run campaigns yourself, is that the amount of staff and resources, people, time and money, are what you have in a campaign, and these folks are constantly running around to debate after debate after debate when they really should be able to put together their own campaign agenda rather and decide what they are about, responding to all these invitations for fear of threats or being told you're going to lose an entire community if you don't show up at this debate.

SANCHEZ: Cheri, maybe the real question -- Keith, let me ask you this, do you really think there should even be a Hispanic debate?

KEITH BOYKIN, HOST, BET'S MY TWO CENTS: Oh, absolutely. I think it's a great idea, actually. I mean, look at all the other debates that are taking place, as Cheri just mentioned. We have a black debate that's taking place. We have a gay debate that's taking place this week. We have a labor debate that's taking place. Why shouldn't the Hispanic community have a debate?

SANCHEZ: Here's the point. Are the questions that are asked in a Hispanic debate, Rachel, going to be any different than the questions that are at a black debate, at a gay debate, at any other debate? Shouldn't it just be about what's good for America?

RACHEL MADDOW, AIR AMERICA: Yes. Well no, it's a way to get at interest groups particular interests. So at this debate, you're going to get a lot of questions about immigration. And I think that explains a lot about who said no about going to this debate. If I was Tom Tancredo, I wouldn't want to go there to Florida to this Univision debate and have to explain why I called Miami a third world country. Of course he's going to say no to this. I'd be afraid if I was him, too.

SANCHEZ: Yes, but this is -- I've got a question for you. Is that this point -- the Hispanic, almost majority in this country, now keep in mind 12 million of them can't vote because they are illegal, a lot of them are children. Some of them are only residents. You can't vote until you are a citizen. So just because there's a lot of them, it doesn't mean a lot of them vote. Are they still really that important at this point in time in our history? Any one of you.

BOYKIN: Absolutely they are important.

SANCHEZ: Why? They're not even going to be able to vote, for the most part.

MADDOW: No, 41 million Hispanic Americans is a big chunk of people voting, whether or not they have 100...

SANCHEZ: In the future, are you voting in the future?

JACOBUS: You know what, you're making a big mistake just assuming that every Hispanic voter in this country is going to vote a certain way just on the immigration issue.

SANCHEZ: Who is making that leap? Who said that?

JACOBUS: The people that came here legally don't necessarily support amnesty and that sort of thing. So I think it's a leap and referring to them as an interest group too, I think that's a little bit off the fact.

MADDOW: Every interest group that's hosting a debate is going to ask its own questions.

SANCHEZ: Hold on Cheri, hold on, let her answer what you asked.

JACOBUS: These are people that are Americans -- when you start getting so parochial.


MADDOW: Nobody is making a leap to say that all Hispanic voters are going to vote the same way on immigration. And talking about them as interest groups -- there are all these different groups that are hosting all these different debates, so they can make sure that their questions are asked at the debate. We didn't talk about immigration at the YouTube debate, we will talk about it at the Univision debate.

SANCHEZ: Rachel, let me hold you right there. Hold on, Cheri, hold on, hang on just a second because there's something else I want to talk about here.

This is quote from a woman who's been saying a lot of controversial stuff of late. Listen to what Elizabeth Edwards is saying this time to a political blog.

Quote, "We can't make John black, we can't make him a woman. Those things get you a lot of press, worth a certain amount of fundraising dollars. Now it's nice to get on the news, but not the be all and end all."

It almost sounds like she's saying that her husband is at a disadvantage in this particular presidential race because he is a white male. Back to our panel. Keith, start us off.

BOYKIN: I don't know exactly what she meant by that, but I think it's a little insulting to Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton to suggest that they are only getting attention because one is black and one is a woman. I mean, look at Carol Moseley-Braun. She ran in 2004. She's both black and a woman, she didn't get any attention. So clearly it doesn't have an impact on your news coverage.

SANCHEZ: Go ahead.

MADDOW: I was just going to say, we're 43-43 in terms of white guys for president.

And so how can somebody who has a real credible shot at getting into the White House does get them a lot of attention. What Elizabeth Edwards is saying is John Edwards can't get attention for his demographic features. We have to use the Web and use other campaign measures to hijack the news coverage that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have earned by their demographics.

SANCHEZ: Earned? Cheri, let me go back to you. Isn't this really a problem of substance in our campaigns? It's all about whose hair is like this and who said that to whom, instead of the issues and the fact that she's a woman and the other guy is an African-American really shouldn't be that substantive, should it?

JACOBUS: Well it shouldn't, and I find it interesting that this is happening in the Democratic Party. They can't blame this flap on Republicans.

But look.

SANCHEZ: What flap?

JACOBUS: Elizabeth Edwards said this and she said this apparently in an interview that she wasn't authorized to give. But the fact is if she's going to be a spokesperson for the campaign, they can't have it both ways. She either is or isn't.

A few weeks ago, we saw the flap where it was a very carefully -- she called into a political talk show to take on Ann Coulter. So that they wanted, this they didn't. I think they may just have a problem with Elizabeth Edwards spouting off a little bit.

MADDOW: They're not distancing themselves from her. She's not being disciplined for having said this. I think that if you take what she said in context, there is nothing controversial about it at all.

JACOBUS: I understand the context and I think it's controversial. BOYKIN: I disagree and agree. It was controversial because there was a suggestion, implication that somehow these guys are getting attention because of something other than their qualifications.

They are both qualified people. John Edwards isn't getting the attention because he is not electrifying the public the same way those two are.

SANCHEZ: I'm interested in the Elizabeth Edwards question. Does Elizabeth Edwards have the right to be controversial and say things like this, which we often say most politicians don't say enough real get-check stuff. Well here she is, saying what she feels, and some people are saying she shouldn't be doing that. After all, she's a candidate's wife.

MADDOW: Elizabeth Edwards is the best thing about the Democratic field so far. I'm a political talk show host. She's the best thing out there in terms of coverage. John Edwards is not apologizing for her. She is huge on the campaign trail. She is a great asset to him. She is not apologizing and she shouldn't.

SANCHEZ: It's down to 40 seconds. Keith and Cheri, do you agree with that?

BOYKIN: She should run for office himself because she is saying some of the things that the Democrats themselves won't say.

SANCHEZ: So it's a good thing. You say it's a good thing. Cheri, do you agree?

JACOBUS: I think it's a debate the Democrats should have. Why is Hillary Clinton the frontrunner? Is it just because she's a woman? She hasn't done anything in the Senate. Why is Barack Obama No. 2? Why is he getting so much attention? He hasn't been in the Senate that long. Go ahead, debate it in the Democratic Party. I'd love to hear that debate.

MADDOW: I love that she's trying to make us fight.

BOYKIN: And Rudy Giuliani's really experienced, right?

SANCHEZ: I somehow knew that Rudy Giuliani was going to come into the response there. Thanks to all three of you. Rachel Maddow, Keith Boykin, Cheri Jacobus, spirited conversation.

Here's something else I want you to see. This is a Florida strip mall where lots of signs are in Spanish. Should they kick out the only guy who wants to do a little business in English? He is furious, by the way. Anybody out there think he shouldn't be?

Also, take a look at these pictures. Yes, that's the same guy. Not for nothing, you know, but there's something going on that's a little to do with -- I don't know. You explain. We'll stay with this. We'll have it covered for you. We'll be right back.


SANCHEZ: Welcome back. You know, to a lot of Americans, this next story is going to sound an awful lot like the world turned on its head.

A small businessman on Florida's Atlantic coast says he's being kicked out of his story simply because he doesn't speak Spanish. Let me show you the picture. See that strip mall right there? You've seen this all over America now in certain places, a lot of signs that are just in Spanish, OK.

Well, one stands out because it's in English, and this store belongs to that guy you just saw right there. His name is Tom McKenna. He has been there seven years now in the heart of the Hispanic neighborhood in Stewart, Florida. He said that his landlord is giving him the boot because he speaks only English and doesn't serve the Spanish need in the area. That's in quotes of course. Tom McKenna is good enough to join us now. I expect you're going to be pretty upset about something like this. Why do you think this is happening to you?

TOM MCKENNA, BUSINESS OWNER: You know Rick, I really can't clearly say why my landlord would give me such a letter telling me that because we don't discriminate against anybody. We serve the Spanish community as well as anybody that wants to basically use our service.

SANCHEZ: Well, he did say something. Let me put this up so the viewers can see. In deference to him, this is something we received as a response from him. He writes that he has an offer to rent your unit that will, quote, "complete my vision," not sure what that means, "of converting the center to quality tenants serving the Spanish need in the area."

What do you think he means by that?

MCKENNA: I'm not quite sure, but let's just turn that around and just say that there were three other renters renting three other spaces that were English speaking, and that the water treatment company wasn't a Hispanic company or a minority. There would be a complete outrage, which rightfully so both sides.

SANCHEZ: To be fair, let's try and clear something up. Have you been a good tenant? Have you done everything you are supposed to do?

MCKENNA: Yes, I have paid my rent on time, and I've been a good tenant, and in fact the landlord has offered me another space in an adjacent building which is kind of unacceptable. But yes, I have been a good tenant.

SANCHEZ: Again, he wouldn't come on, so we had to get some of the responses that he sent us. I want to read another one now. This is where he says he doesn't think you're that great a tenant. He says, "I can have a vision, can't I? And his business just doesn't fit there. He's not a good tenant. He's been late on his rent." Let's just try and get the rent stuff out of the way so then we can talk about the most important stuff. Were you late on the rent a couple times?

MCKENNA: No. Let's start with the rent. At one time, I had rented multiple stores in that plaza there in hopes of maybe opening up a music store. Not once can Mr. Monroe, the landlord, present any time that he's ever charged me with paying my rent late. I've been a good tenant. I've been there going on seven years...

SANCHEZ: So, OK, we have to take you at your word on this. So, let's go with what we're left with. Somebody is trying to get rid of someone who doesn't match the rest of the "demographics" in the area. Is there anything you've done that makes you think that -- he is saying you don't fit in. What does he care if you're paying your money? Is there something else going on here?

MCKENNA: You know, Rick, I really don't understand, you know, what his reasoning actually is because, it's not like we discriminated against anybody. We have a lot of day laborers, we have a lot of landscapers that purchase bottled water from the front of our store. My secretary, who was born in Puerto Rico, speaks fluent Spanish as well as English. I'm not quite sure.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, and neither are we.

MCKENNA: And you know the demographics...

SANCHEZ: And I should mention, just in fairness to the viewer, this guy's not Hispanic, right? He's not Hispanic.

MCKENNA: No, he's American, English speaking.

SANCHEZ: Seems hard to understand. Thanks for sharing your story with us. It certainly seems frustrating.

MCKENNA: Certainly on the outside it certainly looks like you may be discriminated against. Tom McKenna, thanks to you once again.

But, you've never seen pictures that I'm about to show you. Take a look. First, this one, now seen by eight million people on YouTube. We saw it and a lot of people have been talking about it all day. Lions, a water buffalo, a crocodile and a rescue. Simba, all of this will be yours one day.

Also, more about an outraged father who went after his son's murderer in court. Coming up, how it could have been a whole lot worse. We've been checking on this. We'll share the story with you. It's OUT IN THE OPEN now.


SANCHEZ: Hi, everybody, back with your favorite segment. The best video pics of the day. First the countdown with the first teacher to go up in space since Christa McAuliffe. You see this? Here it is.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four, three, two, one, zero, and liftoff of space shuttle Endeavor...


SANCHEZ: Endeavor's up, so far we're told everything is going on schedule.

This is the hottest video on the net. Watch this. These are lions going after a calf, a little baby water buffalo, they finally get it, but suddenly a crocodile, right there, comes out of the water and starts playing tug-of-war trying to get the calf. This gets better, folks, because of that tug-of-war, the little water buffalo gets away, the but the big water buffaloes come back and they laterally beat up the lions. See that right there, that lion being thrown in the air? And they take the water -- the calf back, rescue it and it's finally able to get away safe and sound. I mean, this is better than Simba. What a story. It happened to be shot by someone who had a camera while he was a tourist, there, in Africa.

No. 3 now, a tree falls in Brooklyn. You've heard the story. Well, how about 100 trees fall in Brooklyn because of a tornado in Brooklyn? This is a rarity. This is a storm that came through Brooklyn and parts of New York City. There's some of the damage that we've been getting from some i-Reports. By the way, as a result of this, everybody was stuck in traffic this morning, it seemed, in New York City. Elevators weren't working, a lot of subways were backed up. We know. We're here, we experienced it.

No. 4, take you to Boston. This is an accused killer. What they don't know is -- watch what he's going to do, here. He (INAUDIBLE) spits, not only at the media, and there's the guy with the glove right there, see that, I don't he got to him in time. Go ahead and roll it now, Willie, and you're going to see has he continues going, they stop him. But this is what they didn't know. It turns out that he has hepatitis, so they're checking on some of the people that may have been spat on as a result of this.

And now the story. Remember we showed you the story last night? This is a man who's so incredibly angry, as well he should be, this guy has just admitted to killing his son and he becomes so enraged that he goes after him. Well, look at the rage on his face, you're about to see it, right here, by the way. We may -- look at that, look at that. Look how angry he is. Well, we made some phone calls today and what we found out is that sheriffs told us that he actually lunged for the gun on one of the sheriffs and he was hoping to get that gun, they think, to try and shoot the suspect. He wasn't able to do so. We also checked to see if they're even thinking about charging him, they say absolutely not.

Those are top pics.

Back here to the set, we've got some new information tonight about that horrible execution-style murder of the three college kids in Jersey. We were in Newark, yesterday, reporting on this, and tonight, we know that police have identified at least one of the suspects. Now, a fourth victim was shot in the head, but she has survived, and now with bodyguard protection, she is talking to police. This crime has caused a lot of outrage and it's touched a lot of hearts all over the country, because it was so particularly vicious. Deborah Feyerick is covering it for us tonight and she's joining us now from Newark.

Now, let's start with this victim. Did they -- I guess they may have assumed she wasn't going to make it, but she has made it, thank goodness, and she's saying to police, what?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, she's in stable condition, heavily sedated because of the gunshot wound because of the gunshot wound that she suffered to her head. She's the only one who saw what happened there. Police now believe that there may have been as many as five assailants involved in this horrible crime. What they're doing is they're trying to track down ballistic tests on these guns to see whether in fact those guns may have been used in other crimes.

But right now, they're being careful with this young woman because they have to be sure what she tells them is in fact accurate. What they don't want to happen is to have information out there that could lead them arrest the wrong people, or even worse, arrest people and then have them released on a technicality. So they are being very careful about this.

But, they do believe that a warrant could be issued within the next 24 hours for that one suspect that you mentioned.

SANCHEZ: And they have bodyguards right there at the hospital around her room, right? To make sure nobody gets to her. That's how serious they take these so-called gang members that may, I say may, have committed this.

FEYERICK: Absolutely, exactly, they want to make sure that she's protected. They don't think she is at risk right now, but they do want to be sure that in fact nobody gets any ideas in their head.

SANCHEZ: Hey Deborah, yesterday when I was out there I noticed there was a camera in the schoolyard where this took place. Will they or have they -- will they be able to get any video or anything that's going to help them in this case from that camera?

FEYERICK: Well, the cameras were damaged and they're not sure whether, in fact, it may have been the killers or some of the people there who were there that night who may have tried to damage these cameras to try to wipe away any evidence. They're digital cameras. They're looking to see whether, in fact, there may have been a default drive capturing some of the images. That's one of the things they're working to repair, right now. I did speak to the top cop in New Jersey, and he said that even he was surprised by the savagery of this crime.

GARRY MCCARTHY, NEWARK POLICE DIRECTOR: Well, I'm struck by a number of things, but the first thing is, as you state, the brutality of it. You know, what type of human being would do something like this to another human being in the first place? But, I mean, I can't get over the motivation, which I haven't got our hand around yet.


FEYERICK: You know, Rick, and really the top cop who I spoke with, he told me that in fact it's almost 100 percent guaranteed that these guys have criminal records. He says the majority of crimes here in Newark are actually committed by a very small group of people -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: Deborah Feyerick following that story for us. We thank you so much for catching us up.

How much will you do to be a winner? Well, what would Barry Bonds do to be a winner? And not just a winner, but a record breaker? Is there little bit of him, really, in all of us? Because everybody's talking about Barry Bonds, but is it really about Barry Bonds or is it the way we, as a nation, have made a change?

Also, America's big fat crisis. Specific words, there. What can we do about our kids? Surgery? We'll be back.



ANNOUNCER: And Basset (ph) deals, and Bonds, hit hard! Hits it deep! It's out of here! Seven-fifty-six!


SANCHEZ: There it is, Barry Bonds' record breaker. But now, I want to show you something else that a lot of people have been talking about. There's Barry Bonds as a young star, 20-some odd years ago with the Pittsburgh Pirates. This is Barry Bonds, the guy who's been denying knowingly using steroids. Something happened, something changed.

Join me now, "Sports Illustrated" senior writer, Phil Taylor.

Thanks so much for having me, Phil.


SANCHEZ: Phil, what changed?

TAYLOR: Well, a lot of things change. I'm not sure it's quite fair to look at a guy 20 years ago and compare his body to now...

TAYLOR: OK, let's look at something else then, if you're going to go there, let me look at something else. Barry Bonds is a fabulous player, wins Golden Gloves, steals bases, hits doubles, gets singles, occasional triples, just a fascinating athlete, a guy who deserved on his- merit to go to the Hall of Fame, but he was never a home run hitter. Suddenly that changed after we watch Sosa and McGwire chase the home run title. Barry Bonds did something...

TAYLOR: That's not totally true, Rick. He wasn't a great home run hitter, he wasn't this type of home run hitter on the track to become the greatest ever, but he was a guy who could hit 30, 35 home runs a year, which is not shabby...

SANCHEZ: Well, 30, 35 home runs...

TAYLOR: However...

SANCHEZ: OK, I'm not going to interrupt you. I apologize. Go ahead.

TAYLOR: Of course, he has used steroids. I mean, I don't think anyone, you know, could reasonably look at all the evidence against him and conclude that he's been clean all these year -- these last few years. But, I think to concentrate solely on the fact that he used steroids and to end the conversation there, forgets the fact he is a phenomenal hitter and there are things that he's done as a hitter, even as a home run hitter that can't be attributable solely to what you get out of a syringe. That's the only thing.

SANCHEZ: Well, no, that's cool. And you know what? This is a news show, and we're not going to try and be ESPN, here. We're going to talk about things that really matter to people. And the reason I think America is fascinated by him is because he really may be more representative of what we as a society are going through at this time.

And I'll give you an example, Major League Baseball seemed to discover with guys like McGwire and Sosa, who by the way, I think have gotten more of a pass than Barry Bonds has, and I'm not sure that's fair. But it seems that Major League Baseball discovered that there was more money in having home runs hit because more fans filled the stadiums. And as a result, they seemed to cast a blind eye on all of this. So, when we talk about Barry Bonds doing something wrong, this is not really about Barry Bonds, it's more about Major League Baseball as an enterprise, as a business, isn't it?

TAYLOR: Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think Barry Bonds just represents, he personifies the problem that baseball management and ownership has allowed to flourish over these last maybe 10 years or so, maybe even more than that.

You know, the reason Bonds gets so much flack, of course, is because he's the one setting the biggest record in all of baseball, and maybe in all of sports. But yeah, this is a problem that, for which, there's plenty of blame to go around and certainly it doesn't all go to Barry Bonds.

SANCHEZ: Yeah, and in fact, wouldn't you say -- and I know you're a guy who writes more about sports, but wouldn't you say the same problems that we say with Major League Baseball and the NFL and the NBA are pretty much the same as we see with some of the big corporations that seem to be doing everything they can to just get ahead, even if it's at the expense of cheating, lying, morality, anything? I mean, that's the problem, really, isn't it? Not Barry Bonds, the person.

TAYLOR: Right, I think that's true. I think that Major League Baseball is really just like any other corporate entity, that really their first concern is the bottom line. And the only time they turn around and try to address a problem is when it becomes a public relations problem, when it could hurt their bottom line.

SANCHEZ: And are you guys -- are you guys putting the heat on them, as well?

TAYLOR: In the media? I think so. I mean, I think we -- as I said, lots of blame to go around. The media, reporters like myself, deserve some of that for ignoring the problem, for not really recognizing how widespread the steroid culture was in baseball and all of sports. So, yeah, and I think -- I would also say that the players' -- let's not forget the Players Association, their union, is largely to blame, here, as well, because they didn't -- they wanted to turn a blind eye to this, as well, for a long time.

SANCHEZ: Right. No, no, you're absolutely right. There is more than one guilty party in this case. Phil Taylor, you're a smart guy, really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for being with us and being so honest.

TAYLOR: Thanks. My pleasure. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: LARRY KING LIVE is coming up in just a couple of minutes.

Larry, who's going to be with you tonight, my friend?

LARRY KING, LARRY KING LIVE: Rick, before I even tell you that. Rick, 500 homers, 500 stolen bases?


KING: Do you realize what that is?

SANCHEZ: He's phenomenal...

KING: To get seven -- he's a walk into the Hall of Fame before the season started...

SANCHEZ: I said that. Didn't you hear me say that a minute ago?

KING: No, but I mean -- but what people don't -- the first thing on his plaque, in my opinion, should not be 750 homers.

SANCHEZ: I agree.

KING: It should be 500 stolen bases with 500 homers. That'll never be touched.


KING: Never. SANCHEZ: Phenomenal. Deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Phenomenal athlete, not a home run hitter. He changed...

KING: OK, Rick, back to normal. Coming up on our show, we got new developments in the desperate international hunt for that 4-year- old, Madeleine McCann, missing three months, now. We have maybe blood evidence.

Plus, parents outraged at the handling of their son's murder in the U.S. Virgin Islands.

And the Indy 500 champ and the pro skateboarder who each miraculously walked away from horrifying crashes. How'd they cheat death, rather, and why did they come back for more?

And so I got so excited my teeth got caught in my tongue and I couldn't see what I was saying.

All at the top of the hour on LARRY KING LIVE -- Rick.


SANCHEZ: I love getting you excited. That's -- by the way, next segment we do on Barry Bonds, our guest is going to be Larry King.

KING: You got it.

SANCHEZ: See you later, my friend.

KING: By, baby.

SANCHEZ: All right. Here's what else we're going to have. Don't run off just yet and get a snack before you see the next story. It's especially for kids and for women and it may change the way you think about food and fat.


SANCHEZ: The story of a 13-year-old girl from Austin, Texas. Her name is Brooke, at her heaviest, she weighed 220 pounds. Her parents took her to Mexico to have something like a rubber band but around her stomach to lose some of that weight and that was after a previous tummy tuck and some liposuction. That sound crazy to you? Well, here's what Brooke said:


BROOK BATES, HAD WEIGHT-LOSS SURGERY AT AGE 12: You think, why would you be getting the surgery, that's crazy. I've had so many people tell me this. But my desire to want fix this problem, is -- I mean, I can't even explain. Like, I would do anything for it.


SANCHEZ: I got to tell you, I was surprised to discover how common this type of surgery actually is among young teens. And it's really a side of our national problem with weight, right? Just like this is.

There's a new study at Florida State University. Researchers say that the American women has gained more and more weight as extra pounds have become socially acceptable. Here's what I mean.

According to researchers, the average weight of women between the ages of 30 and 60, that's 30 and 60, has shot up by 20 pounds since 1976, 20 pounds! So is fat the new normal?

Joining us now to talk about this and some of the vital sign, Meme Roth, president of the National Action against Obesity group, dedicated to reversing the obesity epidemic. And also, health and wellness coach, Kelly Bliss of the Association for Size Diversity and for Health.

Hey Kelly, I don't know about you, but the idea of a 13-year-old going through this kind of a procedure just seems weird on its face.

KELLY BLISS, HEALTH & WELLNESS COACH: Well, I think it's the natural ramification of the war on obese people, to do anything necessary to get your BMI to be what's supposed to be OK...

SANCHEZ: But, if we're at the point -- but listen, if we're at the point where our kids have to be going through this kind of surgery, now -- and you heard what I read at the beginning, she's not uncommon, I mean, this is not a freaky thing. Other kids have done this the, you know, Meme, we've got a serious problem in this country.

MEME ROTH, PRES, NATL ACTION AGAINST OBESITY: Right. Nor, is this child suffering from a rare disease that's causing this. She said she would do anything to fix her problem. What she needs to do, which all children need to do, is exercise at least an hour a day, focus on meat proteins, whole grains, fresh fruits, fresh vegetables, and do what you need to do.

SANCHEZ: OK, we know that. But, why isn't it happening? What's going on that's changed us, as a country?

ROTH: Well, what you are looking at is child abuse, not just the surgery, but everything that led up. The mother repeatedly says that her child can't help this. This is something started in her infancy through toddlerhood through childhood. She was supposed to be taught to say no. She was supposed to be taught that gratification is not always met. And yet, her parents have conditioned her to eat this way and...

SANCHEZ: Buy, you know what? All -- my mother does that with my kids. She's happy when they are eating and she always over feeds them.

ROTH: And if you were 100 pounds overweight, that too would be abuse. This child will suffer socially and physically for the rest of her life.

SANCHEZ: Kelly, is it child abuse as Meme says? BLISS: I think what is unfortunate is to assume that every single child who eats healthy and exercises is going to be thin and that every child who is fat mush have a very unhealthy lifestyle. The truth is, when people eat healthy, they will be all different sizes. The problem is focusing on the kids' weight. If you are focusing on the kid's lifestyle, it would be better.


SANCHEZ: All right, go ahead. Go ahead.

ROTH: We know about this child, that she is a compulsive eater. So, what needs to be addressed her emotional and psychological issues. And we know she can't drive, can't hold a job, so it's her parents supplying the means of abuse.

SANCHEZ: We got 30 seconds. What do you think about this study that says that women have gained about 20 pounds since 1976? Doesn't that seem crazy?

ROTH: Yes. They keep sending e-mails to each other saying: love yourself, don't worry that you've gained weight, you're the same size as Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn Monroe was a 14, a today's 14 would have been an 18 in Marilyn Monroe's day...


SANCHEZ: You're saying it's a problem. You got 10 seconds, Kel.

BLISS: The study showed that women think three pounds heavier is OK. I think healthy living is what's important, independent of weight.

SANCHEZ: My thanks to both of you, Kelly and Meme, great stuff, appreciate it, we'll have you back on.

We're going to be right back with a lot more. Stay with us.


SANCHEZ: What an incredible story. And now we're getting even more information. Some of it would sound somewhat positive. Let's take you back, now, to Utah to tell you about the mine rescue. Mine owner, Bob Murray, has come out of a mine, and he's telling us that rescuers are making some outstanding -- look at him -- making some outstanding progress. He says he's been there before. Remember, he used to be a miner.

He says he's a little more optimistic because of what he seems to perceive as a possibility that these mine are getting a little bit more fresh air and that the drilling down to the miners is more than halfway to the men at this point. Amazing man, what a character. We'll be following his story and if there's any break on this story, we'll bring it to you right away. I'm Rick Sanchez. Thanks so much for being with us, today.

LARRY KING LIVE starts right now.