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CNN LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL
O.J. Simpson Possible Suspect in Alleged Las Vegas Robbery; New England Patriots Caught Cheating?
Aired September 14, 2007 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And we're expecting what could be big news out of Las Vegas on O.J. Simpson.
And then there's news -- put it up behind me -- on that right there, a suspect in her daughter's disappearance. Police want to know what's in her diary. We have got the details of what's in it.
All right. We're having a little bit of a technical problem. But that happens from time to time when do you television. Right there, we were supposed to do a taped piece that explained to you pretty much what we were going to have during this newscast.
Thank you for bearing with us. All right.
Lots of breaking news. Let's go right to it.
Hi, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. O.J. Simpson involved in an armed robbery, it's what police seem to be suggesting. But Simpson is refuting it.
First, I want you to hear what police told reporters in Las Vegas today. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPTAIN JAMES DILLON, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: Thursday, September 13, just before 8:00 p.m., Las Vegas Metro responded to a call of a person as a victim of an armed robbery at the Palace Station's Hotel and Casino at 2411 West Sahara.
The victim stated that the one of the suspects involved in the robbery was O.J. Simpson. The items that were taken were various sports-related products.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: By the way, we're expecting a new statement from the police at any time now.
But let's go to Ted Rowlands. He's just gotten off the phone with O.J. Simpson. Let's go through this and set it up for you one more time.
This is a guy who has come forward and said he was allegedly robbed, says O.J. and a couple other people came to his room, pulled out two guns on him, and then took his sports memorabilia. That's the background.
Now let's go to Ted.
What did Simpson tell you?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, same basic story, except take away the guns and take away whose stuff it was.
O.J. says basically what happened was is he got word that his stuff, stolen stuff that he's been missing for years, including old photographs, photographs that Nicole took, blueprints, photographs of his children, himself, were being sold. He got wind of it, he said, so he set up a little sting, where a fake buyer, one of his buddies, agreed to meet these people and potentially buy it.
Well, they said they went into the room and O.J. says, yes, I screamed at him and I said, this is my stuff. This is my stuff. And he took the stuff away. But he emphatically says there were absolutely no guns involved while they were in this hotel, the Palace Station Hotel and Casino.
He says it took a very short amount of time and he told me -- quote -- "I just wanted to get my stuff back. I'm O.J. Who am I -- how am I going to arm-rob anybody?"
Basically, what O.J. is saying is, this is just a misunderstanding and that these guys are making up this story potentially because they felt they could make some money off the tabloids. Why frame O.J.? Well, because you can make money off of it.
It's up to the Las Vegas Police Department to get to the bottom of it. We just also talked to one of the alleged victims in this case. And he tells an entirely different story, saying it was like a home invasion. He says, yes, we were expecting buyers and, boom, the door bursts open. Here comes four guys.
The second guy in had a gun, points it at everybody. The last guy in was O.J. Simpson screaming at everybody, saying that's my stuff, that's my stuff. Took about five minutes. They gathered all the belongings and left.
Were there guns involved? That's the main question. If there were, O.J. could have some issues.
SANCHEZ: Here's the question, Ted. Is there a possibility that police are going to be filing charges on this pronto?
ROWLANDS: Police sources say it's going to take them a couple days to iron this out. They have had limited cooperation with O.J. Right away, he said he would be available for an interview. He did talk to them twice, once initially just to acknowledge he would be available.
Then they had an interview. They say they want to talk to him again because he's going to get some advice from a lawyer. And the next time they talk, he will have a lawyer with him. From O.J.'s perspective, he we will stay around as long as he wants. He says he's in town for a wedding and that this is no big deal. It was his stuff.
He said, what would do you in this situation? This stuff was my stuff. He even said that he called the Brown family before he went in there and said, listen, I may have some old stuff. And you may want -- I will go investigate it and then I will ship it up to you, because this could be some of Nicole's old pictures. She was a photographer.
So, from O.J.'s standpoint, did he nothing wrong. He just went in and got what was his. The police are going to have to figure this out.
SANCHEZ: Well, speaking of the police, why didn't he call the police? Why didn't he use the authorities? Why didn't he say, look, I want to report -- report some stolen stuff that's mine, and I want somebody to go in there and help me retrieve it?
Did he even consider that route before, as the man says, busting into his room, if that's the case?
ROWLANDS: Well, here you go. You're brining up the obvious here. This whole thing seems shady. It's a hotel room, a deal that is worked out. Both sides have some questions to answer as to, what this is stuff? Why is it being kept under the radar in the first place in terms of the sale of it?
And then again, for O.J., why -- why would you do this on your own? Why not call the police, you're right, and get your stuff back if indeed it is yours? Questions the police are trying to answer now. They're doing a lot of interviews, trying to identify everybody in the room.
And, hopefully, they will have some answers as to exactly what happened here.
SANCHEZ: And you're right. Some of this stuff just doesn't add up.
Ted Rowlands, thanks so much for being on top that for you.
All this is coming down on the very same day that O.J. Simpson's new book hits bookstores. Let's try and break this down for you. The book again is called -- go ahead, Jeff, show it -- there it is -- remember when I showed it to Suzanne? You can't even see the "If." It's tucked inside that I over there.
But the book is actually called "If I Did It," number-one bestseller, by the way, Amazon.com, 150,000 copies printed. Mr. Simpson is going to get no money from this, by the way, and the profits are going to be going to the Goldmans and other creditors, not the Browns, by the way, which is an interesting part of this.
It details the events surrounding the murders, everything leading up to the murders and everything after the murders, but it doesn't get into what actually happens in the middle. Dominick Dunne is probably as good a person to talk to about this as there is out there. He wrote the afterward for this book, by the way. He's a special correspondent for "Vanity Fair" and he's good enough to join us now to let us know what's going on in this case.
First thing -- hey, Dominick, I see you're holding your ear. Can you hear me?
DOMINICK DUNNE, "VANITY FAIR": I can hear you. The enormous traffic behind me here.
SANCHEZ: Yes, I can imagine.
DUNNE: But go ahead. I can hear, Rick, yes.
SANCHEZ: All right.
I'm going to take you, Dominick, and I'm going to take the viewers through a conversation that's in this book, all right, so they can hear it and see it. We're going to have it on the screen. I will try to be loud so you can hear me.
Go ahead, Will. Put this thing up. Ready?
Nicole: "I thought you were going to Chicago."
O.J.: "Blank you."
Ron: "Hey, man, that's not necessary" -- Ron Goldman, we're talking about here. This is O.J. coming into the room the night of the fateful murders.
Charlie -- we don't know who Charlie is, by the way -- "Let's just get the blank out of here, O.J."
O.J. says to Charlie: "I asked you a question, mother 'blank.' What are you doing here? You delivering drugs?"
He's talking to Ron Goldman there.
Nicole: "Leave him alone, O.J."
O.J.: "I hear half you 'blank' are dealing on the side," referring to drugs aside.
O.J.: "Nicole came at me swinging.
Nicole: "Get the blank out of here. This is my house and I can do with it what I want."
So, that's O.J. in his book apparently describing the scene when he came to the house just before Nicole Brown Simpson died. What do you make of that?
DUNNE: Well, you know, that's O.J. I sat through both the criminal trial and the civil trial. He didn't take the stand in the criminal trial, but he did in the civil trial. And he lied and lied and lied. So, I have no reason to...
SANCHEZ: But does this fit? Hey, Dominick...
DUNNE: I just don't know.
SANCHEZ: But I remember going, watching the trial, covering the trial, and thinking to myself, boy, as I'm reading this now, this sounds an awful lot like what may have happened that night. Does it fit how you saw events unfold that night?
DUNNE: Well, I see, the story that I believe is that Ron Goldman arrived with the eyeglasses of Nicole's mother that she had left behind at the restaurant where they had had dinner. I don't believe that he was there to deliver drugs. I don't believe that at all.
SANCHEZ: Why do you think O.J. would say that? Why would he try and besmirch people who aren't even here to defend themselves at this point? What does that say about the man?
DUNNE: I mean, what does that tell you about the man? It tells you exactly about the man. I mean, O.J. lies. And I saw him lie on the stand at the trial.
You know, this makes it -- to put drugs in Ron Goldman's hands, that has never ever, ever come up before.
SANCHEZ: Wow. By the way, there's another one here.
And I will just read it to the viewers, because we're running out of time.
But this is where O.J. says: "I looked down at myself for several months. I couldn't get my mind around what I was seeing. The whole front of me was covered in blood, but it didn't compute. Is this really blood, I wondered, and whose blood is it? Is it mine? Am I hurt?"
That's his description apparently of what happened after the murder -- fascinating stuff.
Dominick Dunne, we could talk for hours on this. Thanks for being with us, my friend.
More on this is coming up, by the way, at the top of the hour. Nicole's sister, Denise Brown, is going to be a guest with Larry King tonight. She's talking about this book. She's furious, by the way. She's criticizing the Goldman family for even letting the book come out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We thank the 36 nations who have troops on the ground in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Thirty-six nations? Is that right? We count them up. And we're going to bring it out in the open.
And then later: Her daughter's missing. She's a suspect. We have the details from Kate McCann's diary that police are asking about. And then look at this X-Ray. In China, they use to try and kill baby girls. This one survived. It's remarkable video.
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. And we are OUT IN THE OPEN.
Tonight, there's plenty of talk all over the country about President Bush's latest plan for Iraq. But there was one moment in particular during his speech last night, I don't know if you caught it, but it certainly caught my attention. It had to do with the president' depiction of this U.S.-led coalition. Listen carefully.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We thank the 36 nations who have troops on the ground in Iraq and the many others who are helping that young democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Thirty-six nations that have troops on the ground? Let's go to the wall. I want to break this down for you, as best I can. Let's talk about it.
So, we put together this big wall that has all the nations that are involved. And the first thing we did -- and this is tough, because we had to make a lot of phone calls and try to parse this together, talking to a lot of different sources. But the first people we called this morning was the State Department.
And we said, well, how many troops are actually on the ground? They sent us a form that said 25, 25 with troops on the ground there in Iraq, not 36. And they say there's roughly about 12,000 troops. But, then, when you start breaking it down, you find out some of them are doing a lot less than others.
United Kingdom, for example, you probably read just a couple of weeks ago they have got 5,500 left at this point, but those have been taken out of the base and are now essentially doing guard duty at an airport.
Let's move down the line here, and you see some of the other countries, Armenia, El Salvador, Georgia, Kazakstan, Mongolia. Georgia has 2,000 troops. That's a pretty hefty number. Australia, as we move down, Jeff, this way, has 550 troops, no combat roles, though. That's significant.
Let's move onto the next column. And you see there Denmark with 55, also noncombatants. And, finally, look at this. Moldova, they only have 12. By the way, that's a February figure. And we have got a couple of different sources here, because we have got the State Department.
And then of course the White House insisted to us today when we called them, yes, there's 36. But they're including trainers. They're including advisers. They're including U.N. soldiers.
So, my question with this is, as painful and as controversial as this war has been, why not just be real about this? Isn't that really the function of the White House at this point and the president last night?
So, today, we reached out to the White House. Here's what they said.
SANCHEZ: Joining us now from the North Lawn, the new White House press secretary, Dana Perino.
First day on the job, huh, Dana?
DANA PERINO, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Yes, thank you so much for having me. Appreciate being here.
SANCHEZ: I just went through with the viewers and showed them pretty much the breakdown of the coalition of the willing, as the White House has referred to it.
I think, Dana, what the American people want is to say, we're behind you. Just level with us. And is it fair for the White House to characterize this as 36 nations fighting in this war? That's not true, is it? We're really going it alone here, pretty much.
PERINO: Well, that's absolutely not true.
I was just in Australia and I got to sit down and have lunch with many troops who fought for us in Iraq in al Anbar Province, to be exact, actually, special forces who helped us over there.
There are many nations who are over there helping and there are also many nations around the world who understand that America can be a force for good.
SANCHEZ: I guess the question that I would be asking, and I think I'm asking it for a lot of the American people, is, Mr. President, if you want us to really believe in this, and we will really need to be going it alone, then just tell us. Tell us, look, guys, we're really on our own on this thing.
Why don't you just say that?
PERINO: I actually think that's really offensive to the people of those other countries who have people on the ground, like the Australians, who fought very hard for us and helped clear Anbar and make sure that it was an absolute turnaround in just about nine months.
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's talk about another part of the speech. This is something maybe that not so much what he said, but what he didn't say.
I want you to listen to what the president -- a specific word that the president has been using in speeches in the past consistently. And then I'm going to ask you why he didn't use it last night. The word is victory.
Here we go. Will, take it away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: This will not be a campaign of half-measures and we will accept no outcome but victory.
Victory in Iraq is for the United States of America.
Victory in this struggle will require more patience, more courage and more sacrifice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Now, by our count here at CNN, he never once used the word victory last night. Does that mean that the president believes that victory is no longer achievable?
PERINO: Well, the very last words of the president's speech last night were that he asked the military commanders, do you believe we can win? They said yes.
He asked his diplomats, do you believe we can win? They said yes. And then he said, and we must win.
Win, victory, I see your point in terms of the president not using victory the other night. But I will tell you that this president understands that we need to have a presence in the Middle East. We need to help Iraq become a nation that can govern, sustain and defend itself, and be an ally in this war on terror.
SANCHEZ: When the president says our troops will return on success -- and that's a direct quote from the speech last night.
SANCHEZ: Is he essentially telling the soldiers, you have got to get this done, and, until you get it done, you aren't coming home?
PERINO: Well, you have a general who has -- is implementing the president's plan. And, of course, they want to be successful. That is the whole point.
We don't send American troops anywhere to ask them to fail. And these troops understand. They know why they're in the fight. And they appreciate that they have a commander in chief who supports them. SANCHEZ: Dana Perino, great. First day on the job, and we had a chance to discuss this quite openly. We thank you.
PERINO: Thank you so much.
SANCHEZ: I will look forward to talking to you again. Appreciate it.
PERINO: OK. Bye-bye.
SANCHEZ: She has been missing since May. Her parents are now suspects -- coming up, the mother's diary. We have got details. So, it's out in the open.
Later, they were caught cheating on the New York Jets. So, why are they allowed to keep the W.? Isn't that wrong? Moldova. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Tonight, the diary of a mother under suspicion, front and center in the mysterious disappearance of a little girl missing now since May. We're hearing that police want to reinterview Madeleine McCann's mother, Kate, and they want to look inside her private diary.
Now, this is days after police named both parents suspects in this case.
Randi Kaye has been following the story for us. She's joining us from McCann's hometown of Rothley in the U.K. with the latest details.
And even before we get to the diary, Randi, we here at OUT IN THE OPEN have been following the story coming out of Portugal about sedatives that may have been found, where the children may have been sedated by their parents. What do you know or what are you hearing about that?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you what I know just from the local papers here in England, Rick.
"The Daily Mail" right here is reporting Maddie killed by sleeping tablets apparently at the hands of her mother.
We also have with us tonight "The Daily Mirror." This says, Maddie pills overdose, shock, claim she died from sleeping tablets. In this case,, both of these papers are quoting a French investigative reporter. We have not been able to independently confirm these details. The lawyers for the family in the case are not talking, and the Portuguese police aren't talking either -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: We have been seeing that they're -- really -- police are really interested, right, in looking at the diary to see if they can find some kind of pattern. Obviously, they're looking for motive in this case. What kind of things have they found that tell us about either the mother's relationship with the child, Madeleine, or the mother's relationship with the father?
KAYE: Well, the English papers are also writing about this alleged diary that the police have and are looking at. They're getting most of their information from the Portuguese newspaper.
And, according to that paper, they say that Kate McCann had written and actually complained about her daughters, including Madeleine, complained about their hyperactivity, calling them hysterical. She said that, according to these papers, that Maddie's excess activity exhausted her.
She said she had difficulty controlling the children and that her husband, Gerry, was not home very much and really wasn't around to help with the family chores.
Now, Rick, this is a very different picture than is being painted here by the family and friends in this small village of Rothley, England, where we are. We have spoken with the McCanns' family members and friends. And they tell us that this is a very happy couple, a very loving couple. They love their children. And, until now, they led a picture-perfect lifestyle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DOUG SKEHAN, MCCANN FAMILY FRIEND: The thought of them being neglectful parents, what was evil about the abduction is that someone stole into a room where children were sleeping and took a child away. It wasn't because the parents were neglecting those children.
BRIAN KENNEDY, GREAT UNCLE OF MADELEINE MCCANN: A wonderful relationship, a delightful pair. They idolize the children, all the children. And you wouldn't find a happier family or more dedicated parents anywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Now, regarding all of this latest speculation, of course, the family's lawyers, as I mentioned, are not speaking. Neither are the Portuguese police.
But we did speak to a family spokesperson and she says all this suggestion about sedatives and overdoses and these diary pages, she calls it outrageous speculation. She says that Kate and Gerry McCann would never have given their daughter sedatives or any of their children sedatives. They just wouldn't do it -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: And, by the way, this is information that she was writing down in her diary since she became a suspect or, in fact, even since her daughter's disappearance, right?
KAYE: According to the articles that have been published on this, apparently police are still trying to confirm when she actually started writing in her diary. Right now, according to these reports, it appears that this may have starred after they say that Madeleine disappeared, but they're still trying to figure that out right now.
SANCHEZ: Randi Kaye, following the story for us there, we thank you for bringing us up to date.
Here's a caveat, by the way. Anderson Cooper is going to be anchoring an hour-long special on the McCann case Monday, a closer look at the family and what might have happened that fateful night, with more reporting from Randi in England. Also, Gary Tuchman is now in Portugal. He is going to be filing stories for us on this story. That's Monday night, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL BELICHICK, HEAD COACH, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: I know there's a lot of interest here on the situation and decision last night. But, as I state, that it's over, and we're moving on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He says he wants to move on, but we aren't.
Next, should they forfeit because they cheated? My kids would. Your kids probably would if they were in that situation. Those are the rules, right? We're going to talk to Warren Moon.
Also, fashion in black and white. Or is it really all white? We will break it down.
SANCHEZ: Because what everybody's talking about all over the country, tonight we're looking at cheating because it's OUT IN THE OPEN. Why do we do it, and what does it reveal about us as a people, as a nation? We're going to get to the broader perspective on all of this in just a little bit. But first, the latest scandal to expose cheaters.
Last Sunday, New England Patriots got caught videotaping the offensive and defensive signals of the opposing team, none other than the New York Jets. Yeah, you know, Jets fans were happy about this one, right?
The NFL fined the Patriots $250,000. Patriots have to also give up some draft picks. Maybe a No. 1, maybe a No. 2. Coach Bill Belichick got fined $500,000. That's all? And people from all over the coast now, as a result of this are furious.
(voice-over): Patriots' coach Bill Belichick says he just wants to put the whole incident behind him.
BILL BELICHICK, PATRIOTS COACH: Everything that's happened is in the past. It's been ruled on. It's over and I'm moving forward.
SANCHEZ: But are fans willing to move on? From this latest professional sports scandal, from Atlanta to Chicago to San Francisco to definitely New York. The answer? A resounding no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheating is definitely wrong and you know, it's not good. It's not good for America, it's not good for football.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It gives everybody the idea it's OK to cheat as long as you don't get caught and when you do, you just get a slap on the wrist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You start to wonder how much of a victory is, you know, this type of intelligence. Everybody knows Belichick is a genius. You hope his genius was just left to the football field and not this devious type of stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Belichick is one of the most aggravating coaches in the league and thinks he can get away with everything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they got off way too easy. A whole team cheating? That's pretty bad.
SANCHEZ: And not just any team. A team with multiple Super Bowl victories. This sports radio host says the Patriots are the NFL's gold standard. And their cheating has tarnished both the team and the league.
CHRISTOPHER RUSSO, CO-HOST "MIKE AND THE MAD DOG" WFAN: There's a fine line there of gamesmanship and out of bounds, over the line, and the Patriots here went over the line. That's why they were punished.
SANCHEZ: And what about the teams the Patriots videotaped? One New York Jets player says he's less worried about the game they lost than the long-term effect.
JONATHAN VILMA, NEW YORK JETS LINEBACKER: It's discouraging for the fans, it's disappointing for the fans.
SANCHEZ: But Russo says scandals and cheating have become such a part of professional sports, most fans can't afford to stay mad for long.
RUSSO: Sports fans right now have been immune to all these issues. I mean, Michael Vick, referees in the NBA, steroids. I mean, we're almost getting immune to this. I mean, there's been so many bad things happening in sports. So no, the NFL fan is not outraged right now.
SANCHEZ: Joining us now is one of the best pure passers to ever play the game of football. Warren Moon, formerly with the Houston Oilers. Warren, thanks so much for joining us. Here's the deal with this. When you played Pop Warner, when I played Pop Warner, if the other team was caught cheating, they had a 16-year-old kid on a 14- year-old team, you forfeit the game. They played the Jets, supposedly they cheated. They're admitting to it. Shouldn't they forfeit that game?
WARREN MOON, FMR NFL QUARTERBACK: I don't think they should penalize the whole football team because the coach or some coaches in the organization were trying to steal signals.
SANCHEZ: Why not? Why not.
MOON: Because it's the head coach that did it. The players weren't the ones telling him to do it, so the players shouldn't be penalized by that. But, the coach definitely should be penalized and hopefully it will send a warning to the league that this isn't going to be tolerated.
SANCHEZ: But here's the -- when you win as a team, you lose as a team. When you're caught cheating as a team, you're caught cheating as a team. I mean, if I were a New York Jets fan today, and I was reading these headlines, they played my team and they cheated, I'd say that's not fair. Give me a "W," give them an "L."
MOON: Well, when a player is caught, say, taking steroids or some type of supplement that's band, that player gets penalized, not the whole team. So, in a way, if the coach is penalized, the whole team is being penalized because he's being fined, first of all, and they're having draft choices taken away. So, their team is being penalized in some way form or fashion, but they're not taking away a whole football game because of that one incident.
SANCHEZ: Warren, come on, that fine, who's going to pay the fine? Mr. Craft's probably going to pay it for the coach. That is not a big deal. I'm with you on the draft pick. The draft pick probably could end up costing them a lot. But, I go back to the point that if I'm a New York Jets fan and somebody cheated, it was that way when we were kids, it's that way if you and I go out and play golf right now and you catch me cheating, you don't say hey Rick, give me back five bucks. You say, hey, you lost, right?
MOON: No, if anything they should let Bill Belichick be suspended for a game or two, but not the whole football team. Again, you go back to when a player is caught doing something wrong, that player misses time, not the whole team misses time.
SANCHEZ: I'll give you that. And you know why? Because every time they catch a player doing something, they suspend him. Here they catch a coach doing something. Why aren't they suspending him? Looks like a double standard, right?
MOON: It really does, but they've really come down on players more so than on coaches recently. But if coaches continue to have this type of behavior, I'm going to see they'll probably be doing some things like that with coaches taking them off the sideline for a game or two.
SANCHEZ: Hey, how big is this? You're a quarterback, right? If the other team knows what plays you've called, how big a difference could it make for you?
MOON: It's a huge advantage, especially in my play calling, because I know exactly what type of plays to get to based on whether I know it's a zone or man or blitz. So, it's a big advantage for a quarterback.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Warren Moon, you know, I'm looking at you and I'm thinking this guy could still chuck the pill, this guy could still play the game.
MOON: I can still throw the football. I just can't get away from anybody, that's the problem.
SANCHEZ: Warren Moon, thanks for being with us.
MOON: Thanks for having me.
SANCHEZ: We do know that cheating goes far beyond the field or even the locker room. It seems to really be like running ramp, certainly in corporate America. Have you seen what's been going on the last couple of years? In politics as well, in the classroom, not to mention the bedroom. Have we almost become a nation of cheaters? With me now, David Callahan he's coming in to talk to us about this, because this is a guy who know. He's written a book. The book is called "The Cheating Culture: Why more Americans are Doing Wrong to get Ahead."
What's going on in our country, Mr. Callahan? Have we become more cheaters today than we were in the past or do we just seem to be putting more attention on it in the media?
DAVID CALLAHAN, AUTHOR, "THE CHEATING CULTURE": Well, cheating is not new. That's for sure. The difference is, is that it pays as never before. I mean, we live in a winner-take-all society. The people at the top are making more money than ever, ordinary people are treading water. And as that chasm gets bigger and bigger, people are willing to take more risks to be one of those winners.
SANCHEZ: What happened to -- you know, the other day, I was coming -- you know, I got to come to New York as I still live in Atlanta and I spend my weekends in Atlanta and I come to New York the weekdays, so I got to get on that line to get on the plane every Monday. And I'm sitting in line and there's a line where everybody's got to get to go through the TSA screening thing, right? And I'm watching people trying to get in front of me in the line. And I'm just chuckling as I watch it, thinking to myself why are they going through this. I mean, why not just get in the back?
CALLAHAN: We're living in a kind of me-first era. It's that message that you hear again and again is you're on your own, nobody's going to catch you if you fall. It's a tough, anxious time for a lot of people. And the feeling is, is that you know, you have to do whatever it takes to make it. And for the people at the top, there's a lot of arrogance. For the rich, you know, the business guys, the sports coaches, they're feeling that people at the top cheat because they can. Ordinary people are often cheating because they think the system is stacked against the ordinary guy. You know, when people don't think the rules are fair, what do they do? They make up their own rules.
SANCHEZ: And you're saying it's more now because people -- even the people at the bottom rungs think the other guys are doing it. So I'm going to do it too?
CALLAHAN: Well the incentives are greater. You know, look at Barry Bonds. The guy makes $18 million a year, 20 years ago, Barry bonds made $1 million a year. As the salaries have gone up in Major League Baseball, we've seen an infusion of steroids. As the compensation packages for CEOs have gone up, we've seen more corporate scandals. The more inequality there is, the more cheating you get.
I mean, the gap -- there's huge gap between the rich and poor bring out the worst in people.
Which is a materialistic culture, which is all about, you know, who are our heroes, Paris Hilton, Donald Trump. I mean, with a culture like that, it's no surprise...
SANCHEZ: Did you say Paris Hilton is your hero?
CALLAHAN: No, I said those are the popular heroes. You know, we live in an incredibly materialistic time. You know, it's not about the common good. It's about what you can get for yourself.
SANCHEZ: All right, David Callahan. It's hard to be funny when you have that satellite delay. Thanks for being with us, my friend. Appreciate it.
OK, time to go back inside our video bag. Boy this is amazing. Remember back in China they used to have a rule that you could only have one child. So, for a lot of people if they had a girl they would try to get rid of it, sometimes kill it so then they could have a boy, because that's what they seem to want. Look at this story. This is amazing.
This is inside of a woman. They found these 23 needles stuck inside of her. This is after she became an adult. They never knew what it was doing in there till they took this x-ray. It turns out her grandparents had put those inside of her when she was just a baby hoping that she would die so they could go ahead and have a boy instead.
Here's another story that we're following for you on this night. This is amazing. We've seen this guy before, but here he goes again. Watch him though. I mean, what's amazing about this fellow is he's not hanging on, he has no straps. He's on then building. We showed you him before, they call him Spiderman. He climbs skyscrapers. We showed him before to you when he was in Moscow. Now he's in Spain. Goes all the way up the building using nothing but his hands and his feet, by the way. And when he gets to the bottom, as expected, police officers are there and he is detained once again. He climbed, by the way, 474 feet.
There is more breaking news. A teenager facing some serious jail time for fighting. He's getting a second chance. Reverend Al Sharpton's coming in to talk to us about this one. He's got a stake in this. We're going to let you know what's happening.
Also, women of all colors wearing clothes, why are only White women, then, modeling them? We're going to bring you that coming OUT IN THE OPEN.
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. Tonight in Louisiana, this is one that we've been all over because you know what? What's wrong is wrong. No matter the color. Why should Black students be charged with serious crimes and one tried as an adult for a fight in school while White students involved in a similar situation get a couple of days of suspension?
Well, tonight we learn that a judge has thrown out the conviction of one of the suspects and ruled that he should be tried as a juvenile, not as an adult, as he was formerly tried. Let's go to Susan Roesgen.
I understand we've just been able to make contact with here, she's on the phone trying to explain to us what's going on in this case.
What's going on -- Susan.
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well Rick, it is great news certainly for the first of the six Black sounds in Jena. But it ain't over till it's over and here's why. Mychal Bell was supposed to be sentenced next week on the convictions for aggravated battery and conspiracy. And he was looking at more than 20 years in prison. But just in the last few hours, Rick, a Louisiana appellate court says both of those charges belong in juvenile court, not adult court because Mychal Bell was only 16 at the time that he was arrested for the attack on Justin Barker. However, the D.A. could still charge him with both of those charges, aggravated battery and conspiracy to commit aggravated battery in juvenile court.
SANCHEZ: Is there an expectation that he will at this point?
ROESGEN: You know, we really don't know, and certainly whatever he decides to do in the Mychal Bell case affects the other five students who have yet to go to trial.
SANCHEZ: Thanks a lot. Susan Roesgen with the very latest on this story. Really, a developing story.
Let's bring in the Reverend Al Sharpton. He's been as involved in this thing as anybody else.
Let's bring this back to square one so viewers can get it at home. Because I think there's some confusion about this, because there's so many suspects in this case. I think there's six suspects in all, right?
REVEREND AL SHARPTON, NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK: Six that have been, yes, indicted.
SANCHEZ: And these -- This is a fight in school where they said somewhere in the middle of the school they got in a fight with another kid, a White kid. And apparently they punched and kicked him.
SHARPTON: Apparently that's the allegation. But there had been a series of fights. It started in September when one of the Black students in the school, not one of the six, asked why can't we black students sit under the tree that traditionally only White students could sit under.
SHARPTON: And the principal said, and rightfully so, sure you could. He did. And the next day hangman nooses were there, which is one of the most ugly threats, it's like a swastika to someone Jewish. It's ugly. It's threatening.
SANCHEZ: All right, OK, it's a stupid, dumb thing that kids will do from time to time. So what happened to those kids?
SHARPTON: So, those kids were suspended.
SANCHEZ: The one's who put the nooses up.
SHARPTON: Then the -- those suspensions were cancelled. They were expelled. The school board over road this and nothing happened to those kids. Then there were fights, one innocent where a White student pulled a shotgun. He was given a minor charge, paid a fine. But the six Black kids in the fight later are charged first with attempted murder, then now Mychal Bell brought down to aggravated assault. Last week when the judge threw out the conspiracy as an adult, he was already reinindicted now as a juvenile. So, the reason why he's not out tonight, is there possibly could be a bond on that. We don't know. And we've got to see if he's going to be recharged on the other case. It's absolutely absurd in America where some kids are prosecuted facing 20 years to 80 years and other kids just walk away.
SANCHEZ: And the ones prosecuted are Black and the ones walking away or getting suspension, to be fair are White.
SHARPTON: After a hangman -- racism (INAUDIBLE).
SANCHEZ: Well wait, but forget the race for a minute and let's talk about what's really wrong here. It's teachers and administrators should have seen that this thing was festering as soon as it got to the noose point and they should have called these students, I don't care if they had to cancel classes, put them in the auditortorium and say we got a serious problem in this school, we're going to work our way through it. Why do the police have to get involved?
SHARPTON: Well, when the students protested, from all the information that we have, those Black students protested after the nooses. When the district attorney came to the school, it is alleged by many witnesses he looked at the Black students and waved a pen and said: I can destroy your lives with one use of my pen. And many feel that's what he's done. Again, what his conduct shows is something frightening to us.
SANCHEZ: So, you're saying the D.A. is a racist?
SHARPTON: We're saying there certainly seems to be selective prosecution, here. If it is not, then someone needs to explain to us why these kids are overcharged and others are not which is why radio personalities like Michael Baisden and others, we've all joined in. We're going to have a huge march there this Thursday, even though there won't be a hearing now, we must say that we can't allow America to go back into this kind of behavior.
SANCHEZ: Reverend Al Sharpton, thanks for coming in. By the way, say hello to your daughter. We had her on the other day. She was delightful.
SHARPTON: Thank you. She might upstage me next year.
SANCHEZ: Appreciate it. Thanks again, Al Sharpton.
SHARPTON: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Some beautiful clothes? Also some beautiful bodies. But a Black and White question needs answering on this one. We bring this OUT IN THE OPEN for you.
And then, oops, it's do it yourself drive-thru window? Maybe not. We'll explain. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
SANCHEZ: Time to turn things over to my idol to see what's coming up tonight. Larry King. Who do you got?
LARRY KING, LARRY KING LIVE: Thrilled aren't you? You're thrilled just to be in my presence.
KING: I can tell. I can see the shudder in you. It's just so exciting. Isn't it?
SANCHEZ: A little twink in my eye.
KING: Calm down. I'm just a regular guy from Brooklyn. That's all.
SANCHEZ: All right. KING: Anyway, Denise Brown is with us tonight, Rick, and she's going to react to this breaking story in Vegas. Ted Rowlands is there. He's going to get us up to what's -- in fact, Ted spoke to O.J. today about that crazy story about a robbery in Las Vegas. And then, of course, Denise very, very angry over the publication by the Goldman's of the O.J. Simpson book.
And then my good buddy Ryan Seacrest is going to emcee the Emmys and he's not a comedian, he's not a singer. So this is a departure for them. It should be quite an interesting show tonight, right at the top of the hour -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: O.J. just can't seem to stay out of the news, can he?
KING: He doesn't go away.
SANCHEZ: Larry King, thanks, man.
KING: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: All right, you think of fashion models and you're looking at the apex of beauty, right? There's been a lot of that recently here in New York City, for example, when fashion week just wrapped you. But OUT IN THE OPEN tonight, there's an ugly side of modeling that we've been looking into, not the eating disorders and the skinny models you've heard about in the past. We're talking tonight about the complaints of exploitation, too few Black faces. Not only on magazine covers, but on runways. Also in boardrooms and in design studios and in high fashion all around. Entertainment correspondent Brooke Anderson takes a look at fashion in Black and White.
BROOKE ANDERSON, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Fashion week in New York City. The models are strutting. And the stylists are buzzing. This season's most talked about trend? Color. Or lack of it.
TERI AGINS, WALL STREET JOURNAL: This is the only industry in America where you can legally discriminate against people based on color.
ANDERSON: This trend is not about the clothes that hang off the models, but about the models themselves and the people who make the clothes and decide what's fashionable.
AGINS: I heard people say, well they're not using Black girls this season.
ANDERSON: It's about allegations concerning a lack of diversity and discrimination all in high fashion's ranks from the catwalk to the conference room. Fashionistas like Naomi Campbell are speaking up what's happen. "Black models are being sidelined by the major modeling agencies," Campbell told reporters in Africa last month. "Only White models, some of whom are not as prominent as I am, are put on the front pages," she added.
CNN surveyed is the September newsstand. White celebrity faces front "Vogue," "Elle," "Bazaar," "Allure," "Marie Claire," "W." Of 11 fashion magazines we found zero African-Americans on the covers. And it's not just magazines.
AGINS: Here we are, 2007, and you see the odd Black model in the shows, but it's usually no more than one or two and in many cases none.
ANDERSON: One designer agreed.
KIMORA LEE SIMMONS, DESIGNER: Never see it at the other shows.
ANDERSON: Designer, Kimora Lee Simmons says she's unique in using mostly African-American women on the runway for her Baby Phat line.
SIMMONS: I embrace women of color because that's what I am.
ANDERSON: And it's not just models. Of more than 75 shows at New York's Bryant Park this season, Simmons and designer Tracy Reese are the only two black designers.
GARY LAMPLEY, BLACK RETAIL ACTION GROUP: People of color have achieved notable levels of success in other industries. But yet, we still lag behind, the numbers don't lie as relates to the fashion industry.
ANDERSON: Professor Gary Lampley, Black Retail Action Group, cites a 2004 survey of fashion executives ranks.
The study found African-Americans accounted for just five percent of design executives and as low as two percent in categories like merchandising or buying.
LAMPLEY: Once you have a presence at that level, you'll find that there will be people of color used as models.
ANDERSON: Meantime, it seems in fashion, Black is out.
Brooke Anderson, CNN, New York.
SANCHEZ: You know the convenience stores are supposed to be convenient, right, but not this convenient. Here's a video I found I wanted to share with you. It's about what can happen inside a convenience store.
They were just doing their business inside a convenience store when suddenly this truck just comes crashing right through the wall all of a sudden. Let you see it one more time. Bang, right there. I think we even got a shot from the outside, as well. The driver, a burglary suspect, had just jumped out of a van before the crash and then tried to run away. Police were able to catch up with him.
Get ready to say, awe. One of my producers convinced me that we should show you this. About a little monkey that decides to help a wayward bird find itself. Amazing story.
SANCHEZ: All right, here's this video that one of our producers just -- most of our producers saw this and said you have to put this on the air. This is a story of a pigeon that somehow gets lost. So this 12 week-old abandoned Macock, which is the little monkey, by the way, decides that it's going to take the pigeon in and show him that he's loved. He's not alone. So there you have it. How am I doing? Am I bringing this out, guys? Am I doing I really doing what -- am I selling it? Thank you Tanisha (ph).
That's it for us tonight. Thanks so much for being with us. We will see you again -- well (INAUDIBLE), which would be like Monday. As in lunas. LARRY KING LIVE coming up next. I'm Rick Sanchez. See you after the weekend.
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