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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
O.J. Simpson Arrested in Alleged Robbery Case
Aired September 17, 2007 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We have got details on the breaking news: a third arrest in the O.J. Simpson armed robbery case. That happened just moments ago -- that and the latest on the saga himself.
Simpson back in jail, accused of rounding up a middle-aged posse and sticking someone up in a Vegas hotel room at a low-rent casino to take back souvenirs of his own life, all of it apparently caught on tape. We will have the latest on his upcoming court hearing. We will have the tape and all the bizarre details now coming to light, including that tape, said to be of Simpson and his crew in the act of committing the crime.
Also, he can afford green fees, but what about bail? We are going to look at O.J.'s tangled and carefully sheltered finances and talk with attorney Daniel Petrocelli, who won a civil judgment against Simpson, but has been spent -- has been spending years now trying to collect it.
Plus, we will look at his many other brushes with the law since one jury acquitted him and another found him liable in the murder of his ex-wife Nicole and her friend Ron Goldman. We will hear from Kim Goldman and we will ask Dr. Drew Pinsky if Simpson is, quite simply, a sociopath.
We begin with the latest. And there is breaking news tonight, a third arrest, Simpson behind bars in Las Vegas, due in court on Wednesday, facing armed robbery, burglary, conspiracy and assault charges that could land him in prison for a very long time, facing, along with a tape of the alleged crime, his own possibly incriminating statements to CNN and others.
One of the people Simpson has been talking to since the whole thing began is CNN's Ted Rowlands, who is with us now from Vegas.
Ted, first, tell us about this latest arrest.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The latest arrest, Clarence Stewart, 54-year-old individual, Las Vegas resident, one of the people with O.J. Simpson during this incident last Thursday, according to a source within the police department who has knowledge of the case.
Stewart met with investigators at his attorney's office today. He turned over a considerable amount of memorabilia, which is being processed now. He was booked at the end of that. He's facing the same charges as O.J. Simpson and the other alleged accomplice, Walter Alexander, who has been arrested. It is assumed -- it is believed that Stewart, who was booked here at this detention facility, will make bail, however, as Simpson continues to stay here without bail.
COOPER: What do we know about -- about these guys who are allegedly with Simpson in this hotel room? Walter Alexander, who just on "LARRY KING," was saying that he kind of used to be a friend of Simpson's. They sort of had a falling out. He doesn't really consider him a friend. But they -- they were all attending this wedding with Simpson.
Do we know how -- how it was that Simpson corralled this group to end up in this room?
ROWLANDS: Well, it sounds like it was a situation where it was just an opportunity.
Simpson told me that he had heard that there were items of his being sold on the black market, and he said that he just gathered a bunch of -- quote -- "golf buddies and friends that I know, and we went over there to retrieve the property."
They were in town for that wedding that took place on Saturday night. And it sounds like it was just an opportunity. O.J. said, you, you, and you, you guys want to come with me, a situation? That according to Simpson and what we're getting from this investigation.
COOPER: Well, why is Simpson still in jail? Why was he denied bail?
ROWLANDS: Well, according to judge who made this decision -- we talked to him on the phone today -- he said that he looked at the charges against him, and he looked at the fact that Simpson was not a resident of Las Vegas and had no ties here.
And he said, well, in that case, I decided, let's go no bail until Wednesday. And that's when they will have another bail hearing -- a bail hearing. And, at that point, Simpson may get out of jail. Of course, all of this stems from an investigation which began last week.
ROWLANDS (voice-over): Eight o'clock last Thursday night, an armed robbery is reported at the low-budget Palace Station Hotel and Casino. Six men, two with guns drawn, had allegedly stolen tens of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise. One of the suspects was O.J. Simpson.
CAPTAIN JAMES DILLON, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: He is cooperating with the investigation. And he is meeting with Las Vegas Metro robbery detectives at this time.
BRUCE FROMONG, SPORTS MEMORABILIA COLLECTOR: The door burst open. Guys came rushing in, one after another. The second one had a gun drawn. ROWLANDS: Memorabilia dealers Bruce Fromong and Alfred Beardsley are the alleged victims. Fromong says they were expecting to meet an interested buyer of O.J. Simpson merchandise. Instead, Simpson himself and his -- quote -- "thugs" showed up.
FROMONG: O.J. was going: "This is mine. This is -- Yes, all that stuff is mine. Get it."
ROWLANDS: Some of Simpson's alleged yelling from that night has surfaced in this audio recording released by TMZ, the celebrity news Web site.
TMZ says it was recorded by one of the men who went into the room with Simpson.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON, DEFENDANT: Don't let nobody out this room. (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and sell it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
SIMPSON: Don't let nobody out of here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow.
Mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: By Friday, police were labelling Simpson as a possible suspect, but he was telling CNN there was more to the story.
Simpson told CNN that he and this man, Thomas Riccio, had set up a fake meeting, in an effort to get back what Simpson says were stolen personal items, including old photographs of his family -- quote -- "I just wanted to get my stuff back," he said. Riccio says he saw a gun pulled during the incident, but Simpson told CNN he didn't see any gun.
THOMAS RICCIO, AUCTIONEER: O.J. didn't have any weapon. O.J. just wanted -- and I don't think O.J. even knew or approved of the -- I don't know.
ROWLANDS: By Saturday, while O.J. Simpson attended this wedding, police made their first arrest of one of the men Simpson was with, 46- year-old Walter Alexander, caught, police say, on his way to the airport.
On Sunday, from his room at the Palms Hotel, Simpson told CNN he wasn't concerned that he might be next, but, 90 minutes later, at 11:05 Sunday morning, O.J. Simpson was in custody, charged with six felony counts, including robbery, burglary, conspiracy, and assault with a deadly weapon.
DILLON: He was taken into custody. He cooperated, and it was without incident.
ROWLANDS: Simpson is being held without bail, pending a hearing and arraignment now scheduled for Wednesday.
Ted Rowlands, CNN, Las Vegas.
COOPER: Well, Jeffrey Toobin has written the definitive book on what I guess will now be known as O.J. part one. He's also a former prosecutor, a senior legal analyst. Also with us tonight, Ryan Smith. He is a sports attorney and co-host of "My Two Cents" on BET.
Thanks for being with us, both of you.
Jeffrey, how big -- how much trouble is Simpson in?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, he's in a lot of trouble.
I don't know how this will ultimately end. But, given the relatively straightforward facts that are -- that are out there, there is certainly the possibility that the jury could say, look, even if Simpson honestly believed this was his stuff, he was not entitled to enter that room, wield a weapon -- that is, the group wield a weapon -- and try to remove it.
The chaotic situation may wind up being his doom. It may not.
TOOBIN: But it's certainly a big problem.
COOPER: I want to play part of this tape that -- well, did you have...
RYAN SMITH, CO-HOST, "MY TWO CENTS": Well, I was going to say, the flip side of all that is, there's so much confusion right now, that it's really hard to figure out what his involvement was, how much he saw in this.
And that's where the defense is going to really build its case. Witnesses are going back and forth, saying different things. Everyone in that room has a reason to be against O.J. And every defense attorney who took this -- who would take this would have a reason to say just that.
COOPER: I want to play part of this tape, which I guess is from TMZ.com. We should probably warn some of our viewers, some of the language may -- may be offensive to them.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you! Mind your own business!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there!
SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Backs to the wall!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was trying to get past you!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walk your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) over there!
SIMPSON: Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike took it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You, against the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) wall!
SIMPSON: I know (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Mike took it!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I know what Brian's trying to prove.
SIMPSON: I always thought you were a straight shooter!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm cool. I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So -- so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: What do you make of the fact that someone had the presence of mind or had, you know, pre-thought out to record this? O.J. Simpson is saying this is a setup. The guy, Walter Alexander, who was just one, who went in that room with O.J. Simpson also says it was a setup.
SMITH: You know, it's funny, because Riccio -- Riccio started out by saying he is trying to help O.J. He set this up so he could help O.J. out. But then why would you come in with a tape recorder?
It does sound a little bit like a setup. It's kind of -- you know O.J. and you know O.J. is an emotional guy. These are personal items. These are items reportedly to be some stuff from his mother, all that kind of stuff. You know he's going to come in upset. And it's people that he knows. So, it does sound a lot like a setup.
COOPER: Jeffrey, do you buy this setup at all?
TOOBIN: I don't really feel a lot of sympathy for O.J. having all these warm feelings for his -- you know, these -- these belongings.
This is money. This memorabilia is how he makes his living, except for his very large NFL pension. So, I don't believe he was sentimental about this stuff, but, you know, he was angry that he believed and -- apparently honestly believed -- that this stuff was stolen from him.
This guy Mike he's talking about is someone that he previously had some sort of business and personal relationship with. They had a falling out. He believed that Mike was fencing, had stolen this from him. He was trying to steal it. Riccio, whom we just saw in the story, is apparently a legitimate auctioneer, and tipped O.J. off, and said, that stuff Mike stolen from -- stole from you, you can go get it in this hotel room.
COOPER: When you hear that tape, Ryan, I mean, for -- whether it was O.J. Simpson or his posse or his friends or these wedding guests, to be ordering people against the wall and not to leave the room, I mean, it's pretty hostile.
SMITH: It does sound hostile. And make no mistake, it could weigh against him in a big way. But, you know, there's another part of in that says he knew these guys for years. This whole collecting community, it's a very tight community. So, some of these guys were friends.
COOPER: And a pretty sleazy community.
COOPER: I mean -- I mean...
SMITH: So, when he walks in -- so, when he walks in the room, he sees these guys and he's infuriated. He thought it was going to be somebody he didn't know. And, so, he starts saying this and that.
Look, I'm not saying that he's got an easy road here. I'm just saying there's a lot of room to maneuver.
But this is a whole gray world that O.J. Simpson exists in to make money under the table, cash payments. I mean, he's signing his name on things. It's a pretty gross, sleazy world.
You can be sure that the term checkered history will be trotted out for virtually every participant in this story. So, the witnesses who will be testifying against him, there will no doubt be extensive cross-examination material.
COOPER: And you think it will get that far? This is going to go to...
TOOBIN: That, I couldn't say at this point. I mean, it's -- it does seem early.
What I'm surprised by is that Las Vegas police felt compelled to arrest him so soon, just, you know, on the Sunday after the Thursday, when O.J. Simpson is not going anywhere, except back home to Florida, where you could find him.
It might have been in their interests to spend a couple of weeks, lock in everybody's story, maybe put them in the grand jury, so that this business of people changing their stories doesn't come back to get you.
COOPER: There's a lot more to talk about on the legal front. Ryan, stick around, and, Jeffrey, too, as well. We're going to talk to you both coming up shortly.
For the Brown and Goldman family, of course, this cannot be an easy moment. One the one hand, if the charges are true, the criminal justice system now has another shot at the man that they have always said got away with murder. On the other hand, they have seen O.J. Simpson in this position before, and they have seen how it ended.
Joining me now is Ron Goldman's sister, Kim.
Kim, thanks for being with us.
Seeing him in handcuffs on that perp walk, what went through your mind?
KIM GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON GOLDMAN: You know, I didn't see that picture until late last night. And I was glued to it, and I was just so elated. And I -- I put my hand in the air and I went, heck yeah.
And I -- I hope I get to see him in an orange suit, too.
COOPER: Your father, Fred, said, looking at that picture, that -- that Simpson looked arrogant and swaggered, like he was still in charge of the world.
Does -- does he seem that way to you?
GOLDMAN: Yes, absolutely. It was dripping. And had he not been handcuffed, I'm sure he would have waved and, you know, did the whole thing, and God loves you and the whole bit that he does. It's pretty gross.
COOPER: What do you think went on here? I mean, you -- you probably, in some way, have focused on this man more than -- than most, certainly than most people have, and -- and seen him in a different way than just about anybody has.
You know, if you -- I wish I would have charted it over the last 13 years, of how he just sort of rears his ugly head every couple of months. I listen to people talk about a setup. I don't know what the setup is. What -- what was he set up for? Why was he there with people with guns? I'm confused by that.
At the end of the day, this is someone who walks this earth thinking that he's above it all. And I hope, this time, that the law says he's not.
COOPER: The prospect of him going to jail on -- on this charge, you would be happy with it?
GOLDMAN: I would be happy with him going to jail for anything.
Again, you know, he walks thinking that he lives, you know, godlike. And for him to walk into that place and demand his stuff back and force people up against the wall, most logical, civil-minded people don't live that way. And I -- I hope that he is treated fairly. I hope that he's not afforded any extra luxuries just because of who he is. And I hope the system works for us this time. I really do.
COOPER: You guys won a civil judgment against him. I think some $40 million is still uncollected. When we see him, you know, signing those memorabilia, signing the footballs, signing the T-shirts, do you get that money?
GOLDMAN: We only get that money if we are notified that there's going to be a potential sale. And, for 11 years, we have never caught him ahead of it. We have always found out about it after the fact. And the money is spent.
Jeffrey says it correctly. It's all cash-based. Unless we know about it, we can't attach to it. And that's an unfortunate component of our system.
COOPER: So, he kind of shows up by surprise at these things, without, you know, prior warning, so that you guys can't find out about it?
GOLDMAN: Yes. We have actually been tipped off a couple times. We have been -- we have been able to stop a few, only because he's wronged somebody in the past, and they got angry, and called us to let us know there was something happening. But, you know, he runs with a very, you know, strange group. And they set this thing up. And he signs away everything. And he -- that's how he's making a living. And he's got multiple pension plans, not just the NFL one.
COOPER: He has more than just the NFL one?
GOLDMAN: Yes. He has a SAG pension plan and an AFTRA one. And he also has a pension plan that he set through a production company that he started that he's still able to draw income off of...
COOPER: You guy can't...
GOLDMAN: ... we cannot touch.
COOPER: You can't touch any of the pension plans?
GOLDMAN: None of it.
COOPER: Kim, I appreciate you coming on and talking. I know it's been a long day for you. Appreciate it. Thank you.
GOLDMAN: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: Simpson said he's strapped for cash. Someone is certainly making money off him. Here's the "Raw Data."
On eBay, a 1974 signed autographed by Simpson goes for $2,500 bucks. A Buffalo Bills helmet with Simpson's signature is selling for $895. And a picture of Simpson and his Bronco driver and friend, Al Cowlings -- Remember him? -- when they both played for the San Francisco 49ers, that's up for grabs for a mere $399. The seller says it was signed by both when Simpson was in jail as a murder suspect.
As Kim Goldman just said, getting the money has not been easy. When we come back, how much Simpson may have and how he's managed to keep it for himself, even though he claims to be broke.
First, though, a face from Simpson's murder trial and the line that many believe led to O.J.'s acquittal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNNIE COCHRAN, ATTORNEY FOR O.J. SIMPSON: If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): And acquit, they did. Johnnie Cochran was just one of several members of O.J. Simpson's high-priced, high- powered legal dream team. But where are they now? We will tell you after the break -- when 360 continues. (END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COCHRAN: If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): The quote heard round the world. So, what happened to some of Simpson's dream team?
Johnnie Cochran died of cancer in 2006. So did Robert Kardashian in 2003. F. Lee Bailey was disbarred in Florida in 2001 for mishandling $6 million of a client's stocks. Barry Scheck now heads up The Innocence Project, using DNA testing to help free the wrongly convicted.
COOPER: A look at what was known of the dream team then and now.
This hour, we know exactly where O.J. Simpson is. He's kept in isolation inside a Vegas jail cell. Where is his money -- that's the question -- if he has any? Simpson says he is broke. As we mentioned earlier, the families of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman don't believe it. You just heard from Kim Goldman.
They're determined to collect the millions he owes them from the wrongful death suit.
CNN's David Mattingly is trying to track the money trail.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the same way he racked up yards as a running back, people familiar with his assets say O.J. Simpson counts his annual gains by the thousands.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you profiting from this at all, from signing these autographs?
SIMPSON: I'm not doing it for my health.
MATTINGLY: O.J. remains a popular figure at sports memorabilia shows, where public appearances can be lucrative.
ROGER SANDLER, PHOTOJOURNALIST: They say, hello, how are you? He signs the jersey. If he has time, he will say a few words with them. I have seen 30, 40 people in line waiting to talk to him. It's amazing. MATTINGLY (on camera): But what does that mean in dollars? Attorneys for the Ron Goldman family say it's a mystery. They believe O.J. could be making up to a quarter-million a year in added income, but they're not sure. They have been unsuccessfully trying to claim the money in court as part of their $33 million civil judgment against him.
But, without court backing, they say keeping track of O.J.'s income is almost impossible.
DAVID COOK, COLLECTIONS ATTORNEY FOR GOLDMAN FAMILY: You need to be Johnny-on-the-spot. You need to be there to intercept that money when it goes into Mr. Simpson's hands. And he can be in any -- any one of 50 states here. And, so, that's tough.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Goldman attorney David Cook says O.J.'s Las Vegas arrest raises new questions about the value of O.J. belongings like personal photos and clothing worn during his trial, all of it potential income for the former star.
COOK: We found on our own, with a couple hours of work, close to 24 separate individual dealers selling this stuff. And, again, it's unclear whether they own it themselves or Mr. Simpson put it there on consignment or it's his product.
MATTINGLY: In 2004, when O.J. was accused of hiding income from the Goldmans, he was defiant.
SIMPSON: If I have to work to pay them, I won't work. It's that simple.
MATTINGLY: And, for the most part, he doesn't have to work. His net worth is estimated at over $3 million. There's the house O.J. owns in South Florida. Purchased for a half-million in 2000, it has since doubled in value, all protected from seizure by Florida law.
Then, Goldman attorneys say there are the O.J. pensions from his years in pro football and in the movies, plus a personal fund, collectively paying about $400,000 a year. This is also protected by state and federal law. The Goldmans can't touch it.
So, their attorneys will be back in a California court Tuesday, seeking the items seized in Las Vegas and the money O.J. may be continuing to earn from his celebrity.
David Mattingly, CNN, Atlanta.
COOPER: Well, as the lead attorney for the Goldman Family, Daniel Petrocelli won the $33 million wrongful death suit brought against Simpson. He wrote a book about it called "Triumph of Justice."
Daniel Petrocelli joins us now tonight for an exclusive interview. Thanks for being with us
You -- you won the civil case. The judge awarded the Goldmans $33 million. I think -- what is it up to now?
DANIEL PETROCELLI, CIVIL ATTORNEY FOR GOLDMAN FAMILY: Well, actually, they awarded $33.5 million to both the Goldman and Brown families. And that money, with the interest that has compounded over the last 11 or so years, is probably at $60 million at this point.
COOPER: You know, we just talked to Kim Goldman about how difficult it is to get the money from these personal appearances.
I don't quite understand, though, why it's so hard. I mean, if enough people know about an event, that they're able to go there to line up and get these things, how come you guys can't find out about them?
PETROCELLI: Well, as one of your guests just indicated, you really have to be there at the time. Simpson does not make his money in a transparent way, such as you and me and most other people in this country.
He makes it in cash. He makes it on the spot. He doesn't have a paycheck with a Social Security number on it. And so there's no transparency. And, so, therefore, it's a difficult, if not impossible, to effectuate legal process.
So, he works in the underground, in a sort of underworld of deadbeats. And, for that reason, he's able to get away with earning a nice living without having to pay for killing two people. And, you know, one of the things I want to point out, though, besides the money, I'm seeing all this, I must say, with -- with very mixed reactions, because, on the one hand, if Simpson did these things, it's a serious offense and he will be prosecuted, and he will go to jail.
And any day that he's in jail is a good day for -- for the Goldmans and for those of us who -- who represented them. But, on the other hand, the attention that this has brought tends to minimize and even trivialize what he did on June 12, 1994, in brutally murdering two people.
And that is what he needs to be remembered for, not breaking into a room, trying to get -- get his stuff back, even though, as I say, it sounds like he did so by violating numerous laws.
COOPER: You probably spent more time with him certainly than most people. You deposed him. You successfully litigated against him.
What is he like? I mean, what -- what is -- what was your impression of him, given all the time you spent?
PETROCELLI: Well, I spent two years of my life probably reading everything ever written on him and talking to anybody who -- who would talk to me. And, I mean, I'm not an armchair psychiatrist, but I can tell you that he's about as narcissistic as any human being you could ever confront. He has no remorse. He has no conscience. We all have to remember that he -- he killed his wife and he killed Ron Goldman and left them laying in their blood with the -- with his two small children sleeping in bed about 75 yards away for them to awaken the next morning and find their slain mother in a pool of blood.
I mean, this is the kind of man we're dealing with. And, then, he actually writes a book describing how he did it in allegedly hypothetical terms. I mean, what kind of person can do that? And, then, you get a little private glimpse of him when you see these -- these episodes. Apparently, he's caught on audiotape now.
And -- and you see what he's really like, in contrast to the public persona that he fabricated and sold successfully for so many years.
COOPER: Does he like the media attention?
PETROCELLI: He craves it.
And one thing that I pointed out years ago is that he will bide his time, but he will resurface. He will reemerge, because he needs to. And he -- he actually is of the view that he will be accepted back into the mainstream of society and become a popular figure again.
COOPER: It's fascinating.
Daniel Petrocelli, we appreciate you being on the program. Thank you, sir.
PETROCELLI: Thank you.
COOPER: We have much more on the O.J. Simpson story ahead, including his run-ins with the law after his murder acquittal.
But, first, we want to tell you about our special coverage tomorrow night on the mystery that has baffled investigators. Four- year-old Madeleine McCann has been missing for more than four months now. Her parents, both doctors, both well-liked, are now suspects in the case. They insist they had nothing to do with their daughter's disappearance.
But, with so many unanswered questions in the case, we went looking for answers at the Portuguese resort where the little girl disappeared and in the McCanns' hometown in England. Tomorrow, we will show you what we found.
It's a preview right now from 360's Randi Kaye.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Before Madeleine McCann went missing, her family lived a quiet, ordinary life here, about two-and- a-half-hours north of London. (on camera): We came here to the village of Rothley, England, to learn more about Madeleine McCann's parents. We wanted to know what life was like for them before they started making headlines around the world, before British celebrities started pleading for the safe return of their daughter, before they met with the pope.
We came here to ask a very simple question: What can you tell us about Kate and Gerry McCann?
COOPER: Well, we talked to people who knew the McCanns well, as Randi said. They told us -- what they told us is part of our special report.
We will also walk you through the crime scene in Portugal where Madeleine was last scene and piece together the final hours before she disappeared. It's tomorrow on 360.
Now here's John Roberts with what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ROBERTS, CO-HOST, "AMERICAN MORNING": Thanks, Anderson.
Tomorrow, we bring you the most news in the morning, including the fallout from the home mortgage crisis. It's a buyer's market, if you can get a mortgage. Is it possible to get rich off real estate anymore? Find out tomorrow, beginning at 6:00 a.m. Eastern, right here on CNN -- Anderson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, up next tonight, after he was acquitted, O.J. Simpson said he would spend his time searching for the real killers. That was his quote. But what's he really been doing? We have the real story, from his time on the golf course to his many run-ins with police.
Also tonight, this:
COOPER (voice-over): He was O.J. Simpson's houseguest, a little known actor who testified against Simpson during the trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATO KAELIN, FORMER HOUSEGUEST OF O.J. SIMPSON: I -- I don't remember the -- the layout that well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: What became of Kato Kaelin? Find out -- when 360 continues. (END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): So, what became of Kato Kaelin?
KAELIN: Hi. I'm Kato Kaelin. I'm originally from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
COOPER: Today, he's playing small parts in TV shows and game shows and still making a living off his role in the so-called trial of the century.
COOPER: That was Kato Kaelin and 15 minutes of fame that stretched maybe 15 minutes too long. Now he's back in the headlines because Simpson is -- the breaking news tonight, a third arrest in the bizarre alleged armed robbery in Vegas. It sounds like a bad movie.
In fact, the O.J. Simpson saga has spawned scores of books, movies and, for good or bad, changed the way the media covers a story.
For the man at the center of it all, Simpson has had his share of new legal troubles that have hounded him year after year. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder.
COOPER (voice-over): A hint of a smile, a gesture of thanks. That's how the so-called trial of the century ended. If some hoped the verdict would also mark the last time they'd ever see or hear from O.J. Simpson again...
O.J. SIMPSON, CHARGED WITH ARMED ROBBERY: I'm having lunch with him.
Happy to be here.
COOPER: ... forget it. Since the acquittal, the world's most famous former murder defendant has continued to surface, sometimes playing golf, talking to anyone who will listen, and of course, signing his name.
SIMPSON: I come in and focus on one thing. Memorabilia, signing what people want and then I'm gone.
COOPER: He's also had a few high profile run-ins with the police. It included the mundane, like the 2002 speeding ticket he was issued in Florida for taking his boat through manatee-protected waters.
A few encounters were serious, however. In 2003, his daughter called police to say Simpson was being verbally abusive. Here's part of her 911 call.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... miserable except for me (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER: No charges were ever brought against him for that. And he was acquitted in a road rage allegation made in 2001.
SIMPSON: The defendant is not guilty.
COOPER: In 2004, the satellite cable provider DirecTV sued Simpson for piracy. DirecTV won the suit, and he was ordered to pay nearly $60,000.
In 2005, officers went to his home after a neighbor reported Simpson's girlfriend was attacking him. No arrests were made.
Through it all, Simpson says he's done nothing wrong, including this time when he's accused of taking part in an armed robbery. But former prosecutor Wendy Murphy thinks he's lying.
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: He was acquitted of a double murder, for which most people think he should have been convicted. He was found liable in a civil suit and was supposed to pay millions of dollars to compensate his victims' families.
And what did he do? He moved to Florida, set up shop in a state that lets him hide all his assets. In other words, he hasn't been held accountable at all, ever, for any bad thing he's done.
So is it really any wonder that the country is cheering now that he's been arrested?
COOPER: Now Simpson is under arrest facing charges that could send him to prison for many years.
On his latest mug shot, a grin for the camera. One legal expert thinks she knows why, saying normal people don't smile when they're charged with serious crimes.
MURPHY: If that's not the behavior of a sociopath, I don't know what is.
COOPER: She says Simpson's a sociopath. Let see what our expert thinks. With me now is Dr. Drew Pinsky, an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at the USC School of Medicine.
What about it, Dr. Drew? A lot of people called him a sociopath. What do you think?
DR. DREW PINSKY, ASSISTANT CLERICAL PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, USC SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, I don't know about him particularly. But I think it's important for us all to understand what a sociopath is. And you can decide for yourself.
A sociopath is someone who has difficulty deciding the difference between what's right and what's wrong, who tends to be very grandiose, who really cannot appreciate that other people have feelings or agency other than what he needs from him.
And they become very exploitative of other people, can be violent and aggressive. They tend to do drugs and alcohol. It's -- it's a spectrum of disorder he does kind of fit. And it's possible he does.
The only other thing that can really create that same kind of manifestation is really drug addiction. And you know, if somebody does manifest circumstances and behaviors like that, you almost hope they're drug addicts, because at least that's treatable. Sociopathy, unfortunately, is not.
They tend to have run-ins with the law. They tend to have more trouble. They tend to keep going until something stops them.
COOPER: Dr. Drew, stick around. We're going to talk to you just after this commercial break, along with Ryan Smith and Jeffrey Toobin.
Now also, the man who spawned a course of dancing imitators on Jay Leno. Remember the dancing Itos? Well, here's the original.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): The man at the center of it all.
LANCE ITO, JUDGE: I realize realized that we're all tired and we wish this were over sooner than later.
COOPER: That was Judge Lance Ito overseeing the trial in 1995. We'll tell you where he is today when 360 continues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ITO: I realize that we're all tired and we wish this were over sooner than later.
COOPER: That was Judge Lance Ito overseeing O.J. Simpson's trial in 1995. Despite being the butt of Jay Leno's jokes on "The Tonight Show"...
COOPER: ... today 12 years later he is still a superior court judge in Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Lance Ito then and now.
With me again, our CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, sports and entertainment attorney Ryan Smith, who's also the co-host of "My Two Cents" on BET, and Dr. Drew Pinsky of USC's School of Medicine.
Jeff, I just want to play a little bit more of this audiotape, reported to be from the incident in the room. TMZ.com is where it's from. Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMPSON: Don't let nobody out this room. (expletive deleted) Think you can steal my (expletive deleted) and sell it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
SIMPSON: Don't let nobody out of here. (expletive deleted), you think you can steal my (expletive deleted)?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Does it surprise you that, Jeff, that O.J. Simpson, who has had so many brushes with the law, would put himself in a situation like this?
TOOBIN: No, because of the incredible narcissism and sense of entitlement that he has always reflected in his behavior.
This is a guy, since he was a junior at USC has been one of the most famous people in the United States. He's been coddled. He's been told he was great. And he beat this case, and he left the trial with a smirk on his face, and it's never gone away. And he just thinks that the world has to accommodate to him, and largely it has.
COOPER: Right. I mean, is that the fact that he is this -- was this sports icon and was sort of coddled?
RYAN SMITH, CO-HOST, BET'S "MY TWO CENTS": I think that's a lot of it. I think we talk about this difference between right and wrong. When you're coddled like that, particularly an athlete, there's the sense all the time that you're right. Everything you do is right.
When I hear this and when I hear O.J. conducting his own sting operation, it's not so much that I see it as him thinking he's above the law but I see it as him making -- I'm right in this case, so I'm going to lead these guys to this room and get my stuff back.
COOPER: And when you see that mug shot with that little smile, that's what you think, too?
SMITH: I think there's -- yes, I think there's a right perspective.
TOOBIN: There is a deep personality defect there. You know, Tiger Woods is coddled. Michael Jordan is coddled. And they're fine, upstanding, law abiding citizens. This guy, there's something wrong with, and there has been for a long time.
COOPER: Doctor Pinsky, you know, despite a number of legal problems, this guy only has one misdemeanor conviction, which was beating Nicole years before she was killed. Do you think this has had an impact on his behavior, I mean, the fact that he has, you know, not been punished for a number of actions which he has been involved with?
PINSKY: Right. It's the same thing I see with other people that have behavior problems. We tend to think in our society that somehow people cry out for help. They're looking to be stopped. They're not. They just keep going until they have to stop. And I think that's going on here.
And look, one other point about sociopaths and severe narcissists. They are a pleasure to be around. They are wonderful and entertaining. They are the life of the party, and they can really make you feel good. God help you if you cross them.
COOPER: I want to play -- Jeffrey.
TOOBIN: That is so true. And let's not forget the obvious here. He killed Ron Goldman and his ex-wife. I mean, and I believe -- and I devoted years of my life to this subject -- and many people believe it, he killed those people. And he got away with it, which is the ultimate putting one over on the system.
So having achieved that triumph, you know, everything else is easy.
SMITH: Taking it away from that so much, I wouldn't really -- this is a totally different circumstance. And here, he's looking at it like, you know what? If something -- if something is mine, just like any other citizen in the world, why should I not be able to go get it in my way?
He even said, you know, "People told me to involve the police, but every time I involve the police, it becomes an O.J. story," which is ironic because now it's become an O.J. story because he didn't involve.
COOPER: I want to play something that Alfred Beardsley said on "LARRY KING". This is a guy who was in the room, one of these memorabilia collectors who witnessed the whole thing. Let's play what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": How many guns were involved?
ALFRED BEARDSLEY, WITNESS: I only saw -- I know there were two. But I saw one. You know, this was a very small room in this seedy hotel that Riccio was staying at. And I only saw one. This guy came over and ordered me at gunpoint to pack the items up in the boxes we brought them in. I refused. And I was sitting in a chair, and I was told to get the "F" up, get the "F" up and I did get up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It just doesn't get more surreal or sleazy than this. I got to tell you. I mean, I'm going to take a shower, frankly, after doing this hour. But how much trouble is he in? I mean...
TOOBIN: That's real trouble. You can't -- I mean, you can't go into a hotel room and wave a gun at somebody and say, "Pack stuff up and give it to me," even if it's yours. That's not how the system works.
SMITH: The only problem...
COOPER: Ryan, finish.
SMITH: The only problem I have with that is this is the same guy who, a couple days ago, was saying, "I don't want to go to Vegas to participate in this trial. O.J. apologized to me. Water under the bridge."
So a defense attorney is going to look at that, someone who's defending O.J., and is going to say that's what he was saying now. Now look at the story he's telling. And that's going to cause problems.
COOPER: Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: People without character defects do not hold other people against their will at gunpoint. It just doesn't happen.
We all watch way too much television if we believe that that is anywhere near the behavior of a law-abiding civil citizen. It doesn't get near that in the normal setting ever. So there's something desperately wrong here.
And unfortunately, I think because we're on TV talking about this, we associate it with something that really isn't happening in the real world. It is. It doesn't happen unless -- people do not think because something is theirs and that they have a right to go get it, that they're going to grab a gun or a machete and go get it. It doesn't happen to normal people. They don't behave like that.
TOOBIN: Something Dr. Drew said earlier was so right about O.J. The charm, the likeability. If he were here sitting with us, we would all be listening and enjoying his stories and finding his story credible and believable.
TOOBIN: Absolutely. Absolutely.
He is a charming totally.
SMITH: He's got so many friends. This guy has got a lot of friends.
COOPER: I've never met the guy. But just looking at him in this tape, where he's interviewed briefly, where he's talking about, "Well, I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't making money off of it," doesn't seem charming to me.
TOOBIN: Trust me. I mean, he really is a very likable person on his own terms when he's talking about what he wants to talk about and trying to charm you.
SMITH: And I also think we can look at this and we can see a little bit of a parallel in terms of "I can do this and this is my right to do this" in the Michael Vick situation. Remember that he wasn't really aware that he was doing something necessarily wrong. It's just something that he was doing.
And I think there's a little bit of that here with O.J. I think O.J.'s kind of looking at it like, well, why can't I get my stuff back? And I do think he's got an aspect of charm. He's got lots of friends. He's got people that have backed him all the way through, no matter what's been going on.
COOPER: Some people would argue with you on Michael Vick, whether he knew what he was doing was wrong or he just convinced himself...
SMITH: Well, just -- yes.
COOPER: Ryan Smith, good to have you on the program. Dr. Drew Pinsky, as well. Jeffrey Toobin, as well.
We're going to have more on the O.J. Simpson case. But first Hillary and health care, round two, ding. What's different about her plan this time around? Find out ahead.
And the stunning interruption to a former presidential candidate's speech. What this guy was doing before police got involved. But before that, two other key faces from the Simpson, part one, saga.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TANYA BROWN, NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S SISTER: We're not going to turn the kids against O.J. He's still their dad. That would be a terrible thing.
COOPER (voice-over): O.J. and Nicole's children, Sydney and Justin, were just 10 and 7 years old during their father's trial. Where are they now? We'll tell you when 360 continues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We're not going to turn the kids against O.J. He's still their dad. That would be a terrible thing.
COOPER (voice-over): So where are O.J. Simpson's children now? Sydney, now 21 years old, attended school at Boston University. Justin just turned 19. Both live in Florida.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Their father, of course, back in the spotlight tonight in jail. We're going to have more on the new criminal charges facing O.J. Simpson ahead on the program.
But in other news, health care reform was front and center today. Senator Hillary Clinton finally unveiling her long-awaited proposal for health care coverage. And in "Raw Politics", that is the equivalent of waving a red flag.
And with that, here's Tom Foreman.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton makes a speech. Just wants to end summer with some nice headlines about her health plan. Is that too much to ask?
Well in, "Raw Politics", yes.
(voice-over) The Hill says all Americans should have health insurance. Tax money should help the poor, and insurance companies should be forced to take on sick clients.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The American people should have access to the same array of health care choices and benefits as the senators and representatives they elect.
FOREMAN: But bring in the dancing socialists. She's under attack from all sides.
John Edwards says she's part of the problem: too cozy with the health care industry.
Mitt Romney, she just wants a bigger bureaucracy, not a solution.
Barack Obama, hey, she stole my plan. And hers is more expensive.
And Rudy Giuliani? She wants more government, worse care, and your taxes to pay for it all.
John McCain raising eyebrows. He's long said he's Episcopalian. Now in South Carolina says he's Baptist. Critics call it pandering but the "Raw" read, that's cheap shot. McCain was raised Episcopalian but has gone to a Baptist church for years. SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The most important thing is that I am a Christian. And I don't have anything else to say about the issue.
FOREMAN: One-time presidential contender John Kerry at the University of Florida. A student starts railing, why didn't he challenge the election results?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa. Is anybody watching this?
FOREMAN: After several minutes, the cops take him down, taser him, haul him away.
(on camera) Well, that's one way to get out of a John Kerry speech.
(voice-over) And Gerald ford, memorialized in maize. The late president's likeness is growing up in a Michigan corn maze near where he grew up 19 years ago -- Anderson.
COOPER: Wow, that's pretty unusual.
Coming up, the star witness against polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs, who's on trial for arranging the marriage of child brides. Today one of them, now an adult, faces a rough day on cross- examination. So did her story hold up? Details ahead.
COOPER: Another update from the so-called case of the century. We all remember the white Bronco and the infamous slow speed chase. So where is the Bronco now? "The Shot" just ahead.
But first, CNN's Joe Johns joins us with a 360 bulletin -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson.
In the Warren Jeffs trial, a former child bride testified today that she sobbed throughout her wedding and later tried to commit suicide.
But she also said the polygamist leader never actually spoke to her about sex before forcing her into the marriage when she was 14 and never complained to her family that she was being raped.
Jeffs is charged with two counts of rape as an accomplice.
Iraqi officials have evoked (sic) the license of the American security firm Blackwater USA. The move comes after a shootout in Baghdad that left eight Iraqi civilians dead and 14 people wounded.
U.S. State Department officials said Blackwater guards were protecting a diplomatic convoy when it came under fire yesterday. Today, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice expressed her regret in a rare phone call to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki and promised to investigate.
White House officials say President Bush was surprised by the criticism in a new book by former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan. The book accuses Mr. Bush of mishandling the nation's spending and running up big budget deficits.
Greenspan also criticizes Bush's $1.3 trillion tax cut approved in 2001 and says his own testimony supporting the cuts was a mistake.
And there's new video taken by a survivor minutes after yesterday's deadly plane crash in Thailand. The death toll has climbed to at least 88, including at least four Americans. The jet was landing in bad weather when it crashed -- Anderson.
COOPER: Unbelievable pictures.
Joe, "The Shot" tonight was the opening shot in the saga that began more than 13 years ago. Millions of people watched the slow speed car chase unfold on an L.A. freeway. The white Ford Bronco carrying O.J. Simpson, of course, and driven by his friend Al Cowlings. Of course, everyone remembers where they were when they were watching this. It eventually ended with Simpson's arrest, and well, we all know what happened next.
As for the Bronco, Al Cowlings put it on the auction block a year after Simpson was acquitted. It reportedly sold for $75,000, nearly twice its original value.
Up next on 360, O.J. Simpson in jail, no bail and facing serious charges. Will the man many believe got away with murder 12 years ago finally serve real time? Our legal experts weigh in next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We've got details on the breaking news, a third arrest in the O.J. Simpson armed robbery case. That happened just moments ago. That and the latest on the saga itself.
Simpson, back in jail, accused of rounding up a middle-aged posse and sticking someone up in a Vegas hotel room at a low-rent casino to take back souvenirs of his own life. All of it, apparently, caught on tape.
We'll have the latest on his upcoming court hearing. We'll have the tape and all the bizarre details now coming to light, including that tape said to be of Simpson and his crew in the act of committing the crime.
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