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NANCY GRACE

Columbine-Style School Attack Thwarted by Pennsylvania Police/Infant Drowns in Tub While Mother Shops On Line

Aired October 11, 2007 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. An arsenal of weapons like no other. But no, not militia (ph) nut David Koresh and his secret compound, Waco, Texas, not Jim Jones stockpiling in Guiana (ph), it`s a 14- year-old boy, home schooled in upscale Philadelphia suburb, grenades, assault rifles, guns, swords, knives there in plain sight in the child`s home. And tonight, it`s revealed one .9-millimeter assault rifle, complete with a laser lock, was a gift from the boy`s own mother. Well, this apple`s not far from the tree!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A frightening report out of Pennsylvania today, a 14-year-old boy there accused of plotting a Columbine-style attack at a Philadelphia-area school. He is now in police custody. A search of his room, though, turned up -- listen to this list -- an assault rifle, dozens of air-powered guns, swords, knives, hand grenades and a bomb-making book.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight: An 11-month-old baby girl found floating lifeless in the family tub, there in an exclusive Twin City suburb. But where`s Mommy? Oh, she`s downstairs, shopping for shoes on line!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities say while a Lakeville, Minnesota, mom shopped on line for shoes, her 11-month-old daughter drowned in the bathtub upstairs. Katherine Bodem claims she left her daughter, Cecilia (ph), in the tub with her toddler brother for just a couple of minutes. But investigators who looked at Bodem`s computer say it was more like 20. Bodem could face up to 20 years in prison, if convicted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And all for pair of shoes.

And tonight: Finally, murder charges come down in the murder mystery at sea. An American crew takes tourists on a day cruise fishing. Their worst nightmare comes true. Fifty miles off the Florida coast, hijacked. Only two survivors found drifting on the high seas, but now those survivors formally charged with gunning down the entire crew. They originally blamed those murders on pirates. Tonight: How did the feds finally crack the case?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are here today to announce the filing of criminal complaints against Kirby Archer and Guillermo Zaraboso for murder in the first degree of the captain of the Joe Cool, of the captain`s wife and of the two crewmen of the Joe Cool fishing vessel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suspicious from the start, federal prosecutors now say the story that pirates boarded this fishing boat and murdered its Miami crew is a lie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say evidence collected on board the abandoned vessel contradicts accounts by the two suspects who claim the victims were shot outside on deck with two different handguns. The federal complaint reveals only one shell casing was found outside. Three others were inside the cabin, and all four were from the same handgun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. First, police uncover a massive murder plot, raiding an arsenal at a beautiful Pennsylvania home, the mastermind a 14-year-old boy, home schooled.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What you are about to see will certainly beg the question how in the world can this happen? How is it that a 14-year-old could possibly collect this collection of arms?

This is what the Plymouth (ph) township police say they collected from a 14-year-old`s home and that this 14-year-old had the intent of using this kind of arsenal to carry out a Columbine-style attack at the Plymouth Whitemarsh (ph) high school in Pennsylvania. Just take a look at this -- .9-millimeter assault rifles, air gun, hand grenades, a bomb-making book, and then also among the stash, videos of the 1999 Columbine attack in Colorado.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kevin Miller with 1020 KDKA. An arsenal, stockpiled by a 14-year-old boy, home schooled? Let me get this straight. Were there or were there not hand grenades, homemade -- oh, good Lord in heaven -- homemade hand grenades? Kevin Miller, a kid can`t even get into an R-rated movie, and this kid can get this arsenal?

KEVIN MILLER, NEWSRADIO 1020 KDKA: And he made it himself, Nancy, from "The Anarchist Cookbook," the U.S. counterinsurgency manual. He created these himself. There were two...

GRACE: Wait. Wait. The anarchist what?

MILLER: "The Anarchist Cookbook," which is a known commodity on the Internet and in other magazines, where you actually figure out how -- where it is detailed how you make bombs.

GRACE: Straight to Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." It`s my understanding that the cops got tipped of to this. This is in incredible. A 14-year-old boy being home schooled there in the home -- Jon Leiberman, is it true the cops got tipped off to this because the kid tried to enlist another boy for a mass school shooting?

JON LEIBERMAN, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Yes. And luckily, that other kid and his father immediately called police. And Nancy, police reacted so swiftly in this case. They got that call 7:30 last night, by 10:00 PM, this 14-year-old was in handcuffs. And thank goodness because of this arsenal. He also had a hand-painted Nazi flag in his room.

The whole thing is not only scary, it`s also sad. It`s so sad that we`re talking about a 14-year-old in this case and that his parents didn`t see anything. All these weapons were laid out in his bedroom. Police didn`t even have to look for them.

GRACE: OK, don`t take the camera off Leiberman. No, no, no. That`s me. I want Leiberman, Jon Leiberman of "America`s Most Wanted." OK, I want to see your face when I ask this question. Please tell me that I`m wrong, that the mommy did not go to a gun show and buy her 14-year-old boy a .9-millimeter assault rifle with a laser lock. Please tell me I`m wrong.

LEIBERMAN: I wish I could, Nancy. That`s why I said sad. It is sad that this mother...

GRACE: Sad? Sad? I think she should go to jail, right along with the son, and the father, too, the whole kit and kaboodle!

LEIBERMAN: It is sad that these things are happening in our society and that we`re looking for people to blame. But here`s a mother who bought a gun for her 14-year-old to go along with the other 30 he had amassed in his collection. It makes you angry. I wish I could tell you that weren`t the case. But police indeed say...

GRACE: Hey...

LEIBERMAN: ... this mother went to a gun show and bought it for her son.

GRACE: I`ve got a question. Mike Brooks, take a look at that -- that -- what is that? It looks like the -- the -- the weapon that the grim reaper carries. Do you see that giant blade? What is that?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It just looks like some kind of folding knife that you can easily flick out, maybe some kind of butterfly knife, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at it. There you go, to the far left on the screen. Mike Brooks -- incredible. Handmade grenades? You know how difficult -- where did this kid learn how to do this?

BROOKS: Well, actually, it`s not that hard to do, Nancy, if you have the book. "The Anarchist Cookbook" and some of the other things you can get on the Internet, anywhere on the Internet, Nancy, will tell you how to make a grenade. You can go to an Army surplus store, buy one of the old pineapple-type hand grenades, and you add some black powder, some smokeless powder, and a fusing system. They`re fairly easy to make.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`ve got 30 weapons capable of firing projectiles, numerous knives and various other things that the police correctly, in my judgment, indicated criminal intent, "The Anarchist Cookbook" and various games that relate to violence and Nazi -- a Nazi book. There`s also a hand-painted Nazi flag that we took on notebook paper. It is my judgment you`re clearly talking about a disturbed individual, a very disturbed individual. And the court system will deal with him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s hope so. This disturbed individual is not some militia nut, not Jim Jones down in Guiana handing out poisoned Kool-aid. It is a 14-year-old boy, home schooled in the upscale Philadelphia suburbs. This is just some of what police found after the shooting, the school shooting yesterday. Another little boy that he had allegedly asked to join him in a mass shooting at a school, the little boy and the father called police after what went down yesterday at another public school. Just look at what was found in his home!

Out to Bethany Marshall, psychotherapist and author. Bethany, you`ve got the mother buying the 14-year-old -- he may have been 13 at the time she bought it -- a .9-millimeter assault weapon. What the hey!

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, if I was treating this family, I would definitely wonder about the mother`s murderous, hostile intent. But you know what we know about school shooters. They always pre- plan their attacks. And they amass weapons. They usually brag to one of their school friends or buddies, even though they don`t tell teachers. Usually, it`s after some kind of loss. And we know this kid had left his school of his own volition about a year prior. Three quarters of them make suicidal gestures and they write poems about the intent to kill.

GRACE: Apparently, this kid had notebooks full of violent writings of violence.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of New York -- excuse me, LA tonight -- Mickey Sherman, joining us out of LA, veteran defense attorney, and out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Renee Rockwell. Renee, I think the mom should go to jail, too.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, as impressed as I am with that collection of guns, the court system must not be impressed because they got him in juvi court, Nancy. He could be prosecuted as an adult, but they obviously think that they can do something with this kid because he`s in juvenile court.

GRACE: Renee, reality check. All juvis start in juvi court...

GRACE: ... bound over -- I don`t know if you`re familiar with that phrase. typically on particular designated felonies. And this one, to my mind, rises to the level, Mickey Sherman, of a felony terroristic threat.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, if there`s any means to get this to the adult court, it is going there. And I agree with you, I think the mom`s got as much exposure. But you know what, Nancy? And I know you`re going to holler at me. But I have had a lot of clients, a lot of clients, who have this many guns and knives and swords, but have had no intent of committing the crime. The difference here is all the extra garbage, which is downright scary -- the Columbine tapes, the anarchist notebook, the Hitler memorabilia. That`s what this case different...

GRACE: The Nazi flag.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That doesn`t give you a little shiver up your spine?

SHERMAN: No, no, it does. But I`m telling you, it`s not that unusual to have people who are absolute avid gun collectors. Some people call them gun nuts, but they are absolute...

GRACE: OK, I think that...

SHERMAN: ... collectors of so much stuff.

GRACE: ... you two are choosing conveniently to ignore one very important ingredient, and that is that he tried to enlist another little boy for mass murder! OK, you two put that in your pipe and smoke it just a moment!

Let`s go out to the lines. Maybe -- maybe I`m just crazy. To Jeannie in Colorado. Hi, Jeannie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I want to thank you for everything do you for everyone.

GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling in tonight. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. With the mother purchasing, you know, one of the assault weapons for the child, what kind of charges can be brought against her?

GRACE: What about it, Kevin Miller? Kevin joining us from 1020 KDKA. Any thoughts on the mom?

MILLER: Well, Pennsylvania does have a straw law, Nancy, so she can be prosecuted because what a straw law is it says someone cannot pass a background check, cannot purchase a weapon, someone purchases it for them and then gives it to them. By the way, the hearing tomorrow in Montgomery County will determine whether or not he`s charged as an adult.

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing to me -- and I thank God for it -- that the father of this other kid, this 14-year-old had enlisted for mass murder, after the school shooting yesterday, went to authorities and headed off disaster.

To Bonnie in Florida. Hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You`re the best.

GRACE: You tell that to the defense bar. You tell that to Mickey Sherman and Renee Rockwell. Thank you, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Were there any other children in the home?

GRACE: Any other children in the home? Good question. Jon Leiberman, what do we know?

LEIBERMAN: We believe this 14-year-old was the only child in this family. You know, they pulled him out of public school because he told his parents that he was being bullied and that he couldn`t learn in school because he was being bullied by all of his other schoolmates. That`s why they pulled him out of school and started home schooling him.

GRACE: And to Betsy in Indiana. Hi, Betsy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. I`m hanging in there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) love you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, what was she home schooling him and telling him? Was she getting him ready for Armageddon?

GRACE: You know, I was wondering exactly, since she`s in charge of what the curriculum is, if it included target practice. What do we know about the home schooling requirements, Jon Leiberman?

LEIBERMAN: Well, we know that there are certain guidelines set up, and that`s certainly something police are going to look at right now to see what was the curriculum. What was this kid learning? And does he indeed need to go back to public school at some point? But they`re going to look long and hard about that because this kid`s probably going to serve some time in a juvi, at least a juvi detention center.

GRACE: Well, we`ll find out tomorrow, that hearing bright and early tomorrow morning. Disaster avoided.

I can`t wait to tell you about this next story. An 11-month-old baby girl found floating lifeless in the family tub. Where was Mommy? Oh, that`s right. She was downstairs, shopping for shoes on line. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities say while the Lakeville Minnesota mom shopped on line for shoes, her 11-month-old daughter drowned in the bathtub upstairs. Katherine Bodem claims she left her daughter, Cecilia, in the tub with her toddler brother for just a couple of minutes, but investigators who looked at Bodem`s computer say it was more like 20. Bodem could face up to 20 years in prison, if convicted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Gee, you know, all she`ll really need is a pair of flip-flops there in the county jail. I hardly think shopping for shoes on line is necessary now.

Out to Frederick Melo, crime reporter with "The St. Paul Pioneer Press." Frederic, what happened?

FREDERIC MELO, ST. PAUL PIONEER PRESS: Well, it`s a pretty harrowing case, Nancy. Basically, Lakeville police received a 911 call August 25. They rushed over. They found two women trying to revive the child. Obviously, they were unsuccessful and the child died. It appears that she put her child in the bathtub, just like you said, 11-month-old girl, Cecilia, with her two-and-a-half-year-old older brother, went downstairs.

She said she was just gone a couple of minutes. The police used a warrant to look at the computer. Turns out it had been more like 19. She`d been shopping for shoes. One of her other daughters, her 10-year-old daughter, said that her shoe had broken and she was just on line looking. And then either she -- couldn`t hear the children anymore and she ran upstairs to check on them and found the girl in the water and...

GRACE: Oh, really? Is that so, Frederic Melo? Because it`s my understanding that the toddler came down and alerted his mom that there was something very wrong, or one of the other children came down.

MELO: There certainly are two versions of events here. And when police interviewed the 10-year-old daughter, that`s the version she gave. So there are conflicting stories here, and investigators are going to have to wade through that.

GRACE: To Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." Jon, it`s also my understanding that neighbors and family members had been trying to counsel her for some time about her self-absorption. What do they mean by that?

LEIBERMAN: Well, they were concerned that she was neglecting the kids, and instead of taking care of them and changing diapers and making sure they weren`t left in the -- locked in the car, she was cutting out articles and advertisements about jewelry and amassing other sorts of ads of things that she wanted to buy. She -- according to friends and family, she was obsessed with buying very expensive things or about hoping to some day be able to afford these expensive things, almost like an addiction.

GRACE: I want to go to Todd Redmann, joining us out of Minneapolis. He`s a former neighbor of the Bodems. He`s known them for a couple of years now. Mr. Redmann, thank you for being with us.

TODD REDMANN, FRIEND OF FAMILY AND FORMER NEIGHBOR: You`re welcome, Nancy.

GRACE: Mr. Redmann, what was your reaction when you learned about the 11-month-old girl drowning in the bathtub while Mommy shopped for shoes on line?

REDMANN: Well, we were devastated, my wife and I. We were friends with the Bodems for a couple of years. And what`s missing from this story is the piece that Kathy was certainly suffering from some kind of mental illness. We counseled her to get help. We tried to intervene...

GRACE: What were the symptoms? What were the symptoms?

REDMANN: At times, raging mania. At other times, she couldn`t get out of bed for days at a time. She didn`t get help. That`s the real story here. That`s the real tragedy.

GRACE: Well, other than a dead 11-year-old (SIC) baby, I guess that would be the story, but...

REDMANN: Yes, Nancy. But if the intervention that should have taken place would have taken place, this certainly was a preventable tragedy.

GRACE: Todd, when you -- where was the father?

REDMANN: The father at the time of the drowning? I don`t know. They had -- they had...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Is he in the home? Are they still together?

REDMANN: As far as I know, yes, they are.

GRACE: OK.

REDMANN: He has custody of the children.

GRACE: OK. To Bethany Marshall. Dr. Marshall, explain to me the depression and then the incessant shopping and longing for expensive items.

MARSHALL: Well, this is a mood disorder that seems a little different from depression. Depression is when you have low energy. She was euphoric, seemed to be manic. According to a letter that Todd Redmann wrote child protective services, had disordered thoughts, fecal material on laundry scattered throughout the house, and was completely detached from her children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Her 11-month-old baby girl drowns in the family tub while she`s downstairs shopping for shoes on line. Now all she needs is a pair of flip-flops in the county jail.

I want to go out to the lines. Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. This just angers me. What happened to common sense with these women? I mean, my daughter got bathed in the kitchen sink with a towel on the bottom of it because...

GRACE: Sheeba...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) kitchen sink, and then to the bathtub. And if the phone rang, it just rang and rang and rang.

GRACE: You know what, Sheeba? Getting ready for the twins to come, I have been so lucky to receive from various people, friends and family and all across the country really, those bath things that children lay in. You lay -- they can`t roll over in the water. And then there are those rings you put the baby in so that it can`t fall over. Bottom line is you`re not supposed to put more than about that much water in the tub. And to -- Frederic Melo, it`s my understanding when cops got there, the water was up to the overflow.

MELO: Yes, and there were actually toys that had been in the bathtub that had overflowed the lip of the tub and were actually on the floor of the bathroom.

GRACE: You know, this...

MELO: So this was a serious case.

GRACE: This baby didn`t have a chance. To Dr. Gregory Davis, medical examiner, joining us out of Louisville. How long would it take a child to drown under these conditions?

DR. GREGORY DAVIS, MEDICAL EXAMINER, PROF. OF PATHOLOGY, UNIV. OF KENTUCKY: It could take up to several minutes. After the water hits the windpipe, the child would be miserable, would be gasping for breath, gasping for air. The windpipe would close down, and it would take upwards of several minutes.

GRACE: To James Backstrom, Dakota County attorney. Mr. Backstrom, it`s a real honor to have you with us tonight. Thank you very much. You already see where the defense is going on this one, some type of a mental disorder. But if this woman can go down and get on line and start shopping for shoes, and I mean, to me, that -- that totally belies a mental defect.

JAMES BACKSTROM, DAKOTA COUNTY ATTORNEY: Well, it`s certainly a terrible tragedy, obviously, and one that should never have happened. Anyone with any common sense knows you don`t leave an infant, even a toddler in a bathtub unattended for a few minutes or a few seconds, let alone almost 20 minutes. So it`s a terrible tragedy. In terms of her mental condition, obviously. that`s going to be analyzed and looked at very closely.

GRACE: Is she on the mental ward tonight?

BACKSTROM: She did have to undergo -- she`s actually been released from custody already, so...

GRACE: Oh, I did not understand that she was already out.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: How did she get out so fast?

BACKSTROM: Well, she posted the bail that was set by the judge and under the conditions that she can have no contact with her children unless it`s supervised and there`s another adult present.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Her 11-month-old baby girl drowns in the family tub while she`s online shopping for shoes. Straight out to the lines, Kim in Nebraska. Hi, Kim.

CALLER: Hey, Nancy. Congratulations on the twins. We just love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: I`m kind of curious why somebody in the family, they were so concerned, they said an intervention needs to be done, why didn`t somebody step in and try to take the kids from her?

GRACE: You know, really interesting. It reminds me of the Andrea Yates case, where everybody said, "We knew she was suicidal, we knew she was depressed." But yet they leave her at home with all the children, like the children are pawns.

And, Kim, I hope you`re sitting down, because I just learned that the mom is free on $20,000 bail tonight. That`s really $2,000 bail. And she is free to live in the home with the children as long as somebody else is there.

So to you, Jon Leiberman, why didn`t they have the intervention? Why did they let the children be helpless pawns if they really thought she was ill?

JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": Well, this is a strange dynamic. The mother`s parents, the child`s grandparents, actually did try to file a complaint and they were told, oh, just relax by the authorities, because here`s what happened, Nancy. The woman, right after she had her daughter, she filed a restraining order against the grandparents, saying that she had undergone a life full of abuse. The grandparents immediately said, "What are you talking about?" And got that restraining order lifted. It was a very strange dynamic.

GRACE: So, long story short, neighbors and family had for a long time observed signs of neglect of these children and had tried to do something about it.

I want to go back out to Mike Brooks. Mike, how many times have we heard the same story, everybody noticed something was horribly wrong and did nothing?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: Oh, Nancy, we hear it all the time. You know, this is a nice bedroom community outside of Minneapolis. I lived in the next town over. I mean, the prosecutor there in Dakota County is great, but we hear this all the time, Nancy.

GRACE: Isn`t this right by the Mall of America?

BROOKS: It`s about 20 minutes away from the Mall of America. Instead of going online, why don`t you get a babysitter and carry yourself to the mall and go shopping there? But we hear this all the time, Nancy. If people see something, they need to report it. I mean, Dakota County, they take these things seriously.

GRACE: Out to Jill in Maine. Hi, Jill.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy, congratulations. I know you`re going to be a great mom.

GRACE: I pray. I really do pray. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: It`s kind of similar to your last caller, actually. You have the neighbor on there tonight talking about how these kids were untended to or that she couldn`t get out of bed for a few days. For one thing, was he in the home to know that this woman couldn`t get out of bed? And if so, did he call anyone? Because I would personally be embarrassed to be on your show talking about this if I hadn`t taken any action or tried to get this person any help myself.

GRACE: Tom Redmann, did anyone in the neighborhood try to intervene?

TODD REDMANN, FRIEND OF FAMILY: Yes, letters were written. I`m here because "The Star Tribune" reporter got a hold of the letter that my wife and I wrote, a letter of concern.

GRACE: To whom? Who did you write the letter to?

REDMANN: We wrote the letter for the hearing that the gentleman talked about earlier about the restraint order being lifted from the grandparents.

GRACE: So you did try?

REDMANN: Dakota County was aware of the facts in this case. They were.

GRACE: And they did nothing.

REDMANN: I`m not -- Nancy, you characterized me earlier as being part of the defense. I`m just a...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Wait! Wait! Wait! What? No, we didn`t.

REDMANN: You said -- Nancy, to quote you, you said, "We can already see where the defense is going here." I`m not...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes, that had nothing to do -- whoa, whoa, whoa. I don`t recall saying, "Todd Redmann is part of the defense."

REDMANN: Well, I`m...

GRACE: No, you are absolutely incorrect!

REDMANN: I`m the only one that was trying to talk in any other way other than, you know, exacting a pound of flesh out of Katherine Bodem.

GRACE: Please, sir, please, sir. Please, sir. That was not said at all. And we do see where the defense is headed. It`s very simple. And it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

REDMANN: Really? From what information? You didn`t present anything in terms of a defense. What I`m saying is there`s a mental health issue here. I`m not trying to excuse what Katherine did. It`s inexcusable.

But my motivation remains -- our motivation always was to do what was best for the children and for this family. And that remains our motive. We want to make sure that those kids and this family gets the help they need, and not be so wrapped up in this punishment, and vengeance, and making her look like she`s this awful human being, you know, that was on the Internet just ignoring.

You know, this -- I would like you to talk to your psychologist about some of the kinds of mental illness that can cause this kind of problem.

GRACE: You know what? I will do that right now, Mr. Redmann.

REDMANN: I mean, she`s certainly had...

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, Dr. Marshall, I`m going to talk to you about what could have led her to choose to shop online while her baby drowned.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Because with the manic phase of bipolar, there`s grandiosity, there`s euphoria. It`s a lot of goal- directed activity. She was probably more connected to the pursuit of shoes than she was to her own children. You know, but bipolar people do know when they get disorganized sometimes and they do have responsibilities.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Bethany, bipolar is not an insanity that would excuse her behavior.

MARSHALL: Right. But I think she has some culpability and that she perhaps knew she was getting disorganized, because they have racing thoughts, and why didn`t she do anything? Why didn`t she seek treatment?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspects told investigators the fishing boat was taken over by mysterious hijackers who murdered the crew, but the government says Kirby and Zarabozo gave conflicting stories about how they met each other, the names of girlfriends they were supposedly on their way to meet, what kind of clothes the hijackers were wearing, and even where the shootings happened on the boat.

Prosecutors say spent bullet casings found onboard, bullet casings like this one, were the same caliber and brand of bullets Zarabozo had purchased at a Hialeah gun shop. Relatives of the victims found little comfort in the murder charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The two survivors found drifting on the high seas now formally charged with murder. Out to CNN correspondent John Zarrella, John, tell me, how did the feds finally crack the case?

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, how they cracked the case was just what we just heard in that report. All of those inconsistencies, Nancy, one after another after another, each of these two suspects telling authorities a different story.

And, of course, remember, there`s still no murder weapon. What they`re going on here is still a lot of circumstantial evidence, which is allowing the federal government to bring premeditated kidnapping, robbery, and murder charges against Kirby Archer and Zarabozo. That`s where they stand right now.

And the defense, of course, is saying, look, you don`t have a smoking gun. You don`t have a weapon. So that`s where they stand right now.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Mickey Sherman out of L.A., he is a New York lawyer, Renee Rockwell out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Circumstantial evidence, let me just remind everybody, is just as powerful as direct evidence. Direct evidence being, for instance, eyewitness testimony. Sometimes DNA can be deemed to be direct evidence.

But circumstantial evidence is simply figuring it out, like going outside and seeing water all over the sidewalk, ladies rushing by with their umbrellas. You didn`t have to see the storm to know it rained while you were in the building, Renee Rockwell. So to say it`s just a circumstantial case, that means absolutely nothing.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you have no bodies, no guns, no confessions. But you have two guys that are talking, and they`re telling inconsistent stories. So the model of this is you don`t say anything. The feds are going to do...

GRACE: Well, you know, Renee, I would think that you would agree with me that the moral is, don`t commit mass murder on the high seas. But your moral is, don`t cooperate with police.

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, I`m talking as a defense attorney.

GRACE: OK, good to know.

ROCKWELL: I`m talking as a defense attorney.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, we`re defense lawyers.

GRACE: But you`re also a human, for God`s sake.

(CROSSTALK)

SHERMAN: Not on this show. I`m a defense lawyer on this show who are supposed to explain the process.

GRACE: I guess I`m not either.

SHERMAN: Right, and it is a circumstantial case. And it`s not the greatest circumstantial case. You don`t have any water there. You don`t have a dead body. You don`t have any means of killing. And the case hasn`t been cracked. I disagree with the last characterization. It`s going to get cracked, and one of these guys flips on the other. And that`s what eventually will happen.

ROCKWELL: First come, first serve in the feds.

SHERMAN: Yes.

ROCKWELL: It happens all the time. First come, first serve.

GRACE: No. Well, maybe. But I think, in this case, the 19-year-old is going to melt like ice cream. Let`s go out to Jon Leiberman, "America`s Most Wanted." The list of inconsistencies between their stories is astounding. Do you want to take a crack at it?

LEIBERMAN: Yes, thank you, Nancy, for bringing that up. That`s why I was waving wildly. You know, these aren`t just small inconsistencies. The men claim that the pirates who boarded their boat used two different guns. Well, in fact, they only found four shell casings from the same weapon. That`s one inconsistency. One guy says...

GRACE: Wasn`t it a very unusual type of bullet, as well?

LEIBERMAN: It was. And, in fact, the same type of bullet that matches a receipt that was found for those types of bullets in one of the suspect`s homes. Don`t forget that. The one suspect says three of the hijackers wore shorts and t-shirts. The other guy says, no, they wore jeans and polo shirts. The one guy says that all four victims were thrown overboard on the back of the boat. The other guy says, no, it was a side of the boat, the front of the boat. I mean, these are some major inconsistencies.

GRACE: Archer says he meets Zarabozo shortly after he arrived in South Florida. Zarabozo says they met a couple of months ago at a job, and he could provide details. Archer said they both visited the boat on September 20. They changed that. The other story was inconsistency, was inconsistent. One said bodies were thrown over starboard. One said they were thrown over the back. Everything they said, totally inconsistent.

Mike Brooks, weigh in on the evidence.

BROOKS: You know, Nancy, these guys didn`t get their story together at all. The evidence, you say it`s unusual. Actually, it`s a federal cartridge, it`s a .9 millimeter HydraShock (ph). Not that unusual.

GRACE: That`s it. That`s it.

BROOKS: Yes, it`s a Federal -- Federal is the brand, .9 millimeter HydraShock (ph) is the type of round. And they were able to, with the four cartridges there, they were able, with ballistics testing, to say that it all came from one gun.

And also keep in mind, the FBI agents found a receipt for a .9 millimeter Glock magazine also that he had purchased at that particular gun store in Hialeah. Where`s that magazine now? He can`t explain that one, that`s for sure.

GRACE: Well, one thing that always stuck out in my mind, to Bethany Marshall, is that the younger guy, Zarabozo, said, after the pirates come onboard, after they shoot everybody and throw them over, except for the two survivors, Zarabozo decides to lay down and take an eight-hour nap. Now, that has always struck me as very, very odd.

MARSHALL: Well, either he`s on drugs or he has very low levels of anxiety. You know what? This just sounds like a big, old, fat pirate fantasy, and that these guys were floating about at sea with their guns. They didn`t think they were doing anything wrong, so they didn`t think to cook up a story to cover their tracks. And also, when you have a shallow sense of wrongdoing, you lie in a shallow kind of way.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Tom in Massachusetts. Hi, Tom.

CALLER: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Charges on these guys that -- aren`t they going to be real hard to get seeing laws out on the ocean are so much rougher and...

GRACE: Wait, what now? Your question is what?

CALLER: The laws out on the ocean ain`t the same as in normal towns.

GRACE: No, they are not. You`re right. The law on the high seas is very different. However, if you are still within American territory, American law will apply. That`s my understanding, Mickey and Renee, correct or not?

SHERMAN: I think you`re right, Nancy. But, you know, I`ve two words, again, to remember. Bobby Durst, remember, Dick DeGuerin in Texas defended him and won an acquittal when the man explained that he chopped up his neighbor because they had an argument, but the neighbor had already died.

GRACE: Yes, I remember...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... Morris Black, a little kid found his head in the Galveston Bay, yes, I remember.

SHERMAN: No, but what I`m saying is that there are cases where juries just do not accept the fact that all we have is what we think happened. They want proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

GRACE: To Dr. Gregory Davis, at this juncture, if the bodies were found submerged in the ocean, would they yield any criminal probative evidence?

DR. GREGORY DAVIS, MEDICAL EXAMINER: They very well could. It depends on how deep in the ocean they were, if there was decomposition, if they`re closer to the top of the ocean where it`s hot, where predators can get to them, they may be completely decomposed and of no value.

GRACE: To Nirka in New York, hi, Nirka.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for watching.

CALLER: You look great.

GRACE: Oh, please, you can only see me from the chin up. If you could only see these twins, they`re big. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Have they determined whose blood was in the boat?

GRACE: Good question. What about it, John Zarrella? What do we know?

ZARRELLA: Don`t know yet. They say it is human blood, but the forensics has not come back on that yet. If it has, they`re not telling us. But, no, we don`t know yet.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop for just one moment and go to "CNN Heroes."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s just get started.

KEVIN BACON, ACTOR: Everything we do, you know, as actors is all about being seen and about, you know, our bodies. And here`s this woman triathlete, kids, and completely out of the blue, she was diagnosed with M.S.

I`m Kevin Bacon. And my hero is Robin Maxwell, because she`s not lying down without a fight.

ROBIN MAXWELL, "MEDICAL MARVEL": I was training for a marathon. And so all of a sudden, my feet were totally numb. I discovered that it was M.S. I looked back at the beginning, and I just think of the incredible darkness, and then very quickly, this opportunity for fundraising came up, this contest, on Sixdegrees.org.

BACON: Sixdegrees.org was started to make it easy for people to donate to your cause. When we first launched the site, the six people who had the most donations I matched $10,000 each to the charity that they were supporting.

MAXWELL: That very first day, I raised like $850. And so I thought, "This could actually work."

BACON: You know, she`s got that kind of energy, and she`s got that kind of fight. I think that`s why she won.

MAXWELL: It made me feel like, wow, this is possible for me to do this, and this is possible for me to do a lot more. I feel very obligated to work on behalf of all people who can`t always physically do a lot of the things that I can do.

I had to picture myself as somebody in good health, so I put the words "Perfect Health" on a few items of clothing, and then people would ask me, "Where did you get that?"

We`ve got the short-sleeved t-shirts. I just continually look for other opportunities to raise money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How much?

MAXWELL: That`s $20 for that one.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I write you a check?

MAXWELL: All right, that`s awesome. OK. Fundraising and activism has brought in so much joy, I can be a part of what`s going to make this situation better, not just for me, but for so many people.

BACON: She`s someone that has a lot of drive and a lot of strength. She`s a beautiful warrior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: To Glenn Beck. Hi, friend.

GLENN BECK, HOST: In the wake of the Cleveland school shootings, you have to wonder, why does it seem like the only people in schools that don`t have guns are the teachers? Gun-free zones are like advertisements for shooting fish in a barrel. I`ll talk to one teacher who`s trying to change that.

Then, the Department of Homeland Security chief is going to stop by, Michael Chertoff, and tell us why our own government is trying to stop him from busting companies that hire illegal immigrants.

And a pictorial tribute to the hypocrisy of Hillary Clinton and failures of Jimmy Carter, all that and more, next.

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Francis in Alabama, hi, Francis.

CALLER: Hey, Nancy. How are you doing?

GRACE: I`m hanging in there, dear.

CALLER: Good, bless your heart. I just wanted to know, what happened to the money the guy stole from Wal-Mart? Was it in the boat?

GRACE: I`ve been wondering the same thing. John Zarrella, $92,000, poof, gone. What happened?

ZARRELLA: He spent it all. He doesn`t have anything left, he said. There`s no money. And his argument is, well, I have a couple thousand dollars, that`s all I have.

GRACE: Well, long story short, it`s the working theory that these two were trying to hijack the boat themselves and head back to Cuba. You could live like a king in Cuban off $92,000, John.

ZARRELLA: But they didn`t find any of that money on either of those guys. That`s the problem. So nobody knows where the money is.

GRACE: John, yes, no, the grand jury might indict within 10 days, right?

ZARRELLA: Yes, absolutely.

GRACE: John Zarrella, CNN correspondent there in Miami, Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted," gentlemen, thank you.

Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Marisol Heredia, just 19, El Monte, California, killed, Iraq. Dreamed of college and a military career, loved shopping, speaking French, traveling, and the Lakers. Favorite snack, hot Cheetos, Doritos and truffles. Leaves behind grieving mom, Rosa, stepdad, Jose, fiance, Travis, and sisters, Claudia, Carolina, and Azucena. Marisol Heredia, American hero.

Thank you to all our guests, but especially to you for inviting us into your homes. And a special good night from Florida friends of the show, Janna, Susie, Donna and Jan. And a very happy 24th birthday to one of the stars of our show, Rosie, AKA Evil. Happy birthday, Rosie.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END