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NANCY GRACE

Autistic Hiker Found/Newborn Abandoned in Restroom

Aired October 18, 2007 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A missing hiker with the mind of a 3-year-old and severe autism found alive. After intense search by land, by air, over 10,000 acres of rugged terrain, Jacob Allen tonight found alive.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, we found him. After five days of searches in some very, very rough terrain under, actually, ideal conditions, considering the time of the year, we found Jacob Allen in very good condition not very far from where he was last seen. Thank you, thank you, thank you to all the hundreds of people who came out here, took time out of their lives to help look for this young man and help bring this thing to the conclusion that we have.

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GRACE: And tonight: A newborn baby girl just hours old found abandoned in a public bathroom, her umbilical court still attached. Tonight, the latest on the little girl`s health. And PS, so far, not a peep from Mommy. Hey, Mommy, leaving your baby in a public bathroom? Let`s see how you like the public bathroom in general population at the county jail, Mommy!

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A newborn baby abandoned, left in a handicapped toilet stall on the bathroom floor, the infant found by a janitor mopping that floor. With the baby, a note saying she was born that morning, last fed in the afternoon. Just how long was this baby girl lying on the floor? Police with more questions than answers this evening, and need your help in finding her mother.

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GRACE: And tonight: Music superstar Britney Spears in an alleged string of wild, erratic behavior. Did it cost her custody of her two toddler boys? As we go to air, an LA judge revoked Spears`s limited visitation rights, this following the music icon`s losing custody. Now not even supervised visitation for Spears. What brought yet another custody smackdown?

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put this on the list of all the major setbacks she`s had in this child custody saga. She has, in fact, temporarily, anyway, lost all visitation rights with her two children, 2-year-old Sean Preston and 1-year-old Jayden James. The LA superior court says it is suspending visitation until she complies with court orders. Now, there`s no word on which orders she hasn`t lived up to just yet, but she is required to undergo drug testing and submit to three individual counseling sessions, as well as three joint counseling sessions with her ex-husband, Kevin Federline. Both she and Federline have been ordered her to appear before the court on October 26, but you really have to wonder why she`s not doing everything possible and everything right to get her kids back.

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GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. First, breaking news, a missing boy found alive.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s alive, a missing West Virginia teenage hiker with severe autism found safe. After a four-day search covering 10 square miles of rugged terrain, rescue teams find 18-year-old Jacob Allen alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is alert. He has had something to eat. And he`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just saw him. I saw a blond head of hair. He was just laying down in the woods, taking a nap or resting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I called out his name, and he just -- he rolled over. You know, he didn`t have much in the way of reaction, but (INAUDIBLE) tell he recognized me. And once I gave him food, he was able to sit up and kind of (INAUDIBLE) you could tell he was hungry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rescue (INAUDIBLE) Allen found safe about a mile from where searchers found his hat a full three days earlier. The 18-year- old is recovering at a nearby hospital, reunited with his very happy and relieved family.

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GRACE: Before we take you to the little girl abandoned in a public bathroom -- a real miracle. This young man has the mind of a 3-year-old, severe autism, lost for days in the rugged terrain of West Virginia.

Out to Reuben Perdue, news director at WAJR FM. Sir, thank you for being with us. Reuben, tell me how he was found.

REUBEN PERDUE, WAJR FM NEWS/TALK: He was found simply by one of the search crews, Nancy, who had gone over the territory five or six times during the course of the week very painstakingly, calling for his name, stopping, waiting, watching to see if he responds because he could not verbalize his location and tell them where he was at. One more painstaking, very specific search of the area, they found him in a heavily brushed area. There was a little bit of a clearing in a very heavy area of underbrush on the hillside, up the hill from where they found his hat on Monday. They finally looked up. They caught a glimmer of light, saw his blond hair in the underbrush, and they finally found him.

GRACE: Incredible. With us, Reuben Perdue with WAJR FM.

Out to a special guest joining us, 1st Sergeant Jim Wise (ph) with the West Virginia State Police. Sergeant, thank you for being with us. This is a real miracle. We don`t get these every day. Now, this young man has the mind of a 3-year-old, severe autism. Could he not speak? It`s my understanding he communicated with his parents through very rudimentary gesticulations.

SGT. JIM WISE, WEST VIRGINIA STATE POLICE: That`s correct, Nancy. It`s a fact that children with autism generally don`t speak, and this is the same in this case, that he did not speak. So he could not verbalize or articulate where he was at.

GRACE: Incredible. Out to the lines. Martha in Tennessee. Hi, Martha.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I want to say congratulations. I`m really excited for you.

GRACE: I am, too! I am, too. They`re really giving me heck, but you know what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, that`s a blessing, though.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do adults with autism behave?

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall. Explain.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: The primary feature is they have a severe impairment in conceptualizing what`s going on in the mind of other people. So they lack empathy. They lack a connection, that thing that tethers them to other people. They have problems with verbal and nonverbal communication, and they have a very narrow, restricted, repetitive range of activities and interests that they like. So maybe they`ll stare at a computer all day because that`s manageable. They don`t have to relate to it. But they can`t play with other kids on a playground. So it`s a miracle this boy was found.

GRACE: To Reuben Perdue and Sergeant Jim Wise, thank you for the good news, a real miracle.

When we come back: A newborn baby girl just hours old found abandoned in a public bathroom. We`ll see how Mommy likes the public bathroom in general population at the county jail!

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This little baby`s life started two days ago, but she`s without a name and a mother to claim her. Soon after being born, the helpless infant was left in a bathroom stall at a doctor`s office near Lexington Medical Center. A janitor found her when she was cleaning Tuesday evening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She found a newborn baby wrapped in a towel and an infant`s jacket in the handicapped stall of the restroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doctors examined the baby and determined she was healthy and unharmed, just dehydrated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputies found a note near the baby that read she was born Tuesday morning at 9:30 and last fed that afternoon at 2:30. The sheriff says he`s not sure whether he`ll charge this baby`s mother. Right now, he just wants to find her.

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GRACE: Look at that little thing. She is absolutely precious! Can you imagine abandoning her in a public bathroom?

Out to Maggie Alexander, CNN affiliate WIS reporter, joining us in Columbia, South Carolina. What happened?

MAGGIE ALEXANDER, WIS: Well, Nancy, the sheriff`s office says that a janitor was cleaning at the medical office Tuesday evening she found the little infant wrapped in a green blanket and a child`s jacket, lying there in the handicapped stall, on the floor. They did examine the baby and found out she was just dehydrated, but she is doing well tonight.

GRACE: Maggie, how long after the baby was abandoned do we believe it was found, and where are you getting that calculation?

ALEXANDER: Well, the sheriff`s department is going off a note that was left near the baby that said the baby was born Tuesday morning at 9:30 and last fed Tuesday afternoon at 2:30. That was a note found near the baby. They don`t know if it`s true or not. However, they are looking into that (INAUDIBLE) so the baby would only be three days old right now.

GRACE: Joining us also, Sheriff James R. Metts. He is with the Lexington County Sheriff`s Department. Sheriff, it`s an honor to have you with us. I think I`ve got the sheriff. Sheriff, are you...

SHERIFF JAMES R. METTS, LEXINGTON COUNTY, SOUTH CAROLINA: Yes, you got me. You got me, Nancy.

GRACE: Sheriff, is that what the note said?

METTS: That`s what the note said, that the baby was born at 9:30 AM and had been fed at 2:30 PM, and that`s all we know. But we believe the note to be true, because the baby still had part of the umbilical cord attached to its body.

GRACE: Man, look at this little thing. She is so precious! Was she on the floor? Was she on the back of the commode? Was the commode -- where was she?

METTS: She was on the floor right near the commode, laying on a little blanket.

GRACE: Oh, good Lord! To Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor at Johns Hopkins. Dr. Makary, is there anywhere filthier you could leave a baby than the floor of a ladies` bathroom?

DR. MARY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIV.: Any kid found -- and we do see this, unfortunately.

GRACE: Oh, good gosh!

MAKARY: We worry that kids, especially the smaller that they are, that they dehydrate because the smaller a child is, the higher the body surface area per pound ratio, and they lose a lot of fluids quickly. Kids easily go into shock, especially the smallest children.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Trenny Stovall, Richard Herman, Renee Rockwell.

You know, Trenny, I don`t know if you watch these special investigative pieces like I do.

TRENNY STOVALL, CHILD ADVOCATE ATTORNEY: Yes, I do.

GRACE: I was shocked to learn that a women`s bathroom, even though it would look cleaner, is actually millions of times -- full of millions more bacteria than a man`s bathroom. And here is a baby laying on the floor of the ladies` bathroom!

STOVALL: Yes. That`s exactly what I thought, that this baby could succumb to infection. There`s a reason that in South Carolina, the law requires that they hand the baby over to someone. If she didn`t want this child, she could have asked a friend to give this baby to a hospital official. They want to make sure that the child is cared for and been able to examine quickly. That`s why you don`t just leave a baby abandoned anywhere.

GRACE: OK, Richard Herman, go ahead and tell me that the mother is 12 years old and she`s working her way through school and she has a job after school every day at the local library, right?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, first, I think you ought to recuse yourself on these baby cases now because you`re not looking at them objectively, but...

GRACE: Butt out, buttinsky!

HERMAN: OK, listen -- and we`re all very excited for you, so just know that. On this particular case, the law punishes criminal intent. Here she goes to a medical office building, Nancy. She`s trying to show...

GRACE: A ladies` bathroom.

HERMAN: She`s trying to show -- she doesn`t know exactly what to do. She`s got to be scared to death. She leaves a note. She clothes the baby. When the baby goes to the hospital, the baby`s healthy. Come on, let`s hear the sheriff say he`s not going to prosecute.

GRACE: You`ve thrown me into a coughing fit. She doesn`t know exactly what to do! Renee Rockwell -- oh! Oh! How I wish he would say that in an opening statement where I was trying the case! I know one thing. I know you don`t leave a newborn baby on the bathroom floor. I know that much. Didn`t know what to do? How about take it to a doctor or a nurse? She was that close to someone.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, she left it in the building that was connected to the emergency room. I know it was on the floor, but for God`s sake, she`s almost there, and she might not have known that she had to hand it to somebody. And I just can`t fault her. She did everything she could. She said what time the child was born, what time the child was last fed. You don`t know, she might have been watching this janitor sweep the next bathroom, and she just snuck it in there. I can`t fault her...

GRACE: Yes! Yes!

ROCKWELL: But Nancy, let me tell you why else they may...

GRACE: Maybe she was! Maybe she`ll come back and pick the baby up! Yes!

ROCKWELL: And Nancy, she probably could, if the child is not adopted out beforehand. But they do want to find the child`s family because maybe a relative wants the baby.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Barbara in Ohio. Hi, Barb.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow! Good evening, Nancy, and congratulations on your multiple blessing.

GRACE: You know, I am the luckiest person in the world. Of course, they keep me up every night until about 2:30 AM, but that gives me plenty of time to research cases just like that so I`ll be ready for people like Richard Herman and Renee Rockwell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree with you. He needs to butt out. He knows nothing about it.

GRACE: Nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I wanted to say was, What`s wrong with this country? Here we are, already talking about dispensing birth control to 11 and 12-year-old girls in a public school, yet somehow, we`re failing to get the message out there that these young women can go to so many places and present their baby without having to give name, any information at all. I just think something`s screwy.

GRACE: Well, I can agree with you on that, that something is very screwy, as you`re putting it. And Barbara in Ohio, my concern is for the life of this child. As far as I`m concerned, the mother can take care of herself, but leaving the child in these conditions -- totally and criminally irresponsible!

I want to go out to Michael Morrissey with Baby Safe Haven New England. Michael, thank you for being with us. I really want to get your message out so children are not left on bathroom floors, in dumpsters, on people`s front doorsteps. There is a way to abandon your child, which is bad enough, but to do it in a way where the child can live, where the child has a fighting chance. How do you do it, Michael?

MICHAEL MORRISSEY, BABY SAFE HAVEN NEW ENGLAND: Well, first of all, Nancy, congratulations. Actually, triple congratulations. I think we got a couple of booties going your way from here in Boston.

And first of all, I want to say that, as a safe haven advocate and somebody that`s doing a lot of public relations, people like myself and the people we work with, we`re going to shoulder some of the burden of this responsibility. Now, we have to get the message out to these young women that it`s a hospital, police, fire station, to a person there. Put a hoodie over your head. Cover your face as much as you want, but hand the baby...

GRACE: You know, Michael -- Michael, this is what I don`t understand. I recently adopted part of a roadway to go pick up trash for Keep America Beautiful, and there`s a big sign that says -- you know, you go along the roadway and it says who`s going to pick up trash. Why do we have signs that say pick up trash, and we can`t even get a sign up at the hospital, the church, the whatever, that says, Leave your baby here. Don`t abandon it. Don`t leave it to die.

MORRISSEY: We`ve got them in Massachusetts. We`ve got them in Massachusetts. I think there`s over 200 of them spread across the state right now.

GRACE: So why does it keep happening?

MORRISSEY: It`s low cost.

GRACE: Nobody seems to know about it. I`ve never yet, except on the case that I`m covering, actually seen one of those signs.

MORRISSEY: Well, we`ve got to use low-cost, no-cost, start getting foundations to raise some money, get those signs up, get TV PSAs out. I`ve got a 19-year-old up-and-coming pop singer going to radio stations all over New England talking about the Baby Safe Haven law.

GRACE: We`ll help you.

MORRISSEY: It doesn`t cost us a penny.

GRACE: We`ll help you, Michael Morrissey. Liz -- yes, Liz, look at this baby girl~. How many thousands of people would love to love her, to cuddle her, to bring her up, to give her a home.

Out to Mike Brooks. Mike, I know you`ve seen this many times as a fed with the FBI and over in D.C., and yes, I`m concerned about the mother, but what she did, in my mind, is criminally wrong~!

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You know, Nancy, it is criminally wrong. It is. She broke the law. They want to try to find her or somebody in her family. But you`re not going to hear me agree very often with Richard Herman -- and nice tie, by the way, Richard -- and also Renee. But I have to agree. You know, I`m glad that she left the baby, did not do any harm to the baby. And still we need more education. You`ve heard me say this before, Nancy...

GRACE: Oh, blah, blah.

BROOKS: No, hear me out. And you`ve had...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... using the bathroom floor to take a nap on.

BROOKS: We need more education, Nancy, in pre-natal care facilities and OB/GYNs` offices on these safe havens. That is the key thing here, education, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what? You know what, mike? I`m all for education. You know how many thousands of people I arranged to have education or rehab or Alcoholics Anonymous or Drugs Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, anything to help them. But at a certain point, when you take the life of an innocent baby -- hey, if she wanted to have an abortion here in America, she could run to any corner she wanted to!

BROOKS: She could have...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... and have an abortion. But no! Have the baby and leave it on the bathroom floor? Unacceptable!

BROOKS: But Nancy, at least she didn`t put a plastic bag over the baby`s head...

GRACE: Oh, that`s my choice?

BROOKS: ... like we`ve seen so many times.

GRACE: That`s my big choice you`re giving me?

BROOKS: It could have been, for someone like her.

GRACE: There are other choices, Mike Brooks!

BROOKS: The baby is alive, and it can now be adopted. That`s the good thing.

GRACE: Yes, and we have one person...

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: ... OK?

GRACE: We have one entity to thank for that. God in heaven, because leaving that child on a bathroom floor for the janitor to find? What if she hadn`t cleaned that stall, Mike Brooks? What if the baby was still there right now, starving, Mike Brooks?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Under state law, people can leave a baby in a safe haven, such as a hospital, but they must leave a child with a person, not all alone. Sheriff James Metts can only speculate why someone would abandon a newborn baby.

METTS: Maybe they had the baby out of the wedlock. Maybe they don`t want to be identified with having the baby. There`s a lot of reasons that the baby was left (INAUDIBLE) but we need to find the mother.

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GRACE: A little baby girl, an infant, her umbilical cord still attached, found abandoned on a bathroom floor, a public bathroom floor.

Out to Sheriff James R. Metts with the Lexington County Sheriff`s Department. Sheriff, thank you for being with us. Sheriff, is there video in this hospital that could help identify the mom or what happened?

METTS: Yes, Nancy, we do have video that we`re looking at now at the hospital to try to help identify the mother who brought the baby there and left her on the bathroom floor. Our investigators are going through that video now, and we`re narrowing it down to see if we can determine who, in fact, did leave the baby.

GRACE: You know, this is a tough one, Bethany Marshall, if you`ve got a mom who was young, like Richard Herman was saying, didn`t know what to do, versus someone that did know what to do. That`s really tough because Lady Justice is blind, Bethany.

MARSHALL: Well, look, there`s a reason the safe haven laws aren`t adequate to help in these situations and why education doesn`t work. The whole MO of these women is to deny that they`re pregnant. That`s why they don`t receive pre-natal care. They`re young. They`re unmarried. Usually there`s rape, feeling of illegitimacy, that they don`t plan as to what to do with the child.

GRACE: You know what, Bethany? I feel so guilty because I`m so lucky. As we were sitting here, I found out that the bassinets I got for the twins have arrived. And I have a home for them. I have a place to take them. And you know, we`ll never know. We may never know about this mother. But you know, the bottom line is, though, Bethany, it`s not all about the mother. There`s a baby at stake!

MARSHALL: But most of these mothers are young, unmarried, and they live with family, parents, and guardians. Many of them do have resources. We know that from the literature and the research.

GRACE: Yes, we do.

Out to the lines. Heather in Pennsylvania. Hi, Heather.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, Was the baby born in the hospital?

GRACE: Good question. Sheriff Metts, what do we know?

METTS: We don`t know whether the baby was born in the hospital or not. All we know is from the note that the baby was born at 9:30 AM yesterday morning and fed at 2:30. We don`t believe the baby was born at the hospital.

GRACE: Right. Right.

METTS: We believe it was born somewhere else and brought to the hospital and dropped off.

GRACE: Sheriff Metts with us. Adam Pinsker, what was the janitor`s reaction when she found this baby?

ADAM PINSKER, NEWSRADIO 550 WVOC: I think he was pretty surprised. Of course, fortunately, he was -- they were pretty close to the emergency room, and that`s the ironic thing about this whole case is that all the mother had to do was bring the baby over to the emergency room.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s plenty of mystery, but this much is known. Hours earlier, a mother was giving birth to a beautiful baby girl, a girl that mother abandoned, left alone in a handicapped toilet stall on the bathroom floor, a note with the baby saying she was born that morning, last fed at 2:30, four hours before she was found by a janitor. Detectives desperately trying to find her mom, the baby in protective custody tonight, as the search for her mother continues.

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GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Abelita in Texas, hi, Abelita. Hi, dear, are you with me? OK, to Pat in Maryland. Hi, Pat.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. First thing I want to do is congratulate you. Both me and Harriet want to congratulate you on the two little Grace-lets. If you thoroughly love the ones you love, they`ll thoroughly love you back.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: My question is, can the mother be charged with a crime, like attempted murder, for this?

GRACE: To Maggie Alexander, CNN affiliate with WIS, joining us out of Columbia, Maggie, will she be charged with a crime?

MAGGIE ALEXANDER, REPORTER, WIS: Well, the sheriff`s department says they`re not sure if they`ll charge her yet. First and foremost, they just want to find her.

GRACE: To Sheriff James R. Metts, if she is charged, what would the charge be?

SHERIFF JAMES R. METTS, LEXINGTON COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: Child abandonment, if she`s charged, and we would just want to find her right now so that we can get the baby hooked back up with a family member possibly. But in all probability, she will be charged with child abandonment in South Carolina.

GRACE: Is that a felony or misdemeanor?

METTS: It`s a felony.

GRACE: There`s your answer out in Maryland, Pat, possibly felony charge coming down the pike.

To Anna in Illinois, hi, Anna.

CALLER: Hi. My question is, how do we know that the mother put the baby there and it wasn`t the father that did it?

GRACE: Excellent question. Out to Adam Pinsker -- Adam is a reporter with News Radio 560 WVOC -- I know it was in a ladies` bathroom. I know that the note said when the child was last fed and when it was born, but why do we assume it was the mother?

ADAM PINSKER, REPORTER: That`s a good question. And that`s what the sheriff was saying earlier, they`re still investigating that, the authenticity of the note and, you know, if it`s accurate, what was written on the note. Maggie had mentioned in one of her reports on the local news earlier that a lot of people want to adopt this baby, so there`s a lot of concern for her down here.

GRACE: And very quickly, Marty Mackary, what are the health risks when a mom abandons the baby like this?

DR. MARTY MACKARY, PHYSICIAN, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, dehydration is the most important concern. And kids will go into shock within 12 or 24 hours. Now, the body has got a way to shunt the blood and the important circulation to the brain and heart, but that can only last for a few additional hours.

GRACE: Well, I`m worried about the super bug, and there`s no better place to get it than off the bathroom floor.

When we come back, music icon Britney Spears already lost custody of her two toddler boys and now, in a major legal smackdown, a judge takes away all visitation rights, even supervised.

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(NEWSBREAK)

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A.J. HAMMER, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: You said it right. We can just put this on the list of all the major setbacks she`s had in this child custody saga. She has, in fact, temporarily anyway, lost all the visitation rights with her two children, 2-year-old Sean Preston and 1- year-old Jayden James. The L.A. Superior Court says it is suspending visitation until she complies with court orders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She may just not have enough perspective to realize what`s going on. Clearly, you know, the judge in this case set forth a few guidelines that she was to follow. She had great difficulty following them or didn`t seem to follow them. And that`s why this was instituted in the first place, that she was going to get temporary visitation, before they actually went back to court. And now, of course, it seems like she`s not going to get to see them at all until they come back to court on October 26th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today in a major legal smackdown -- we don`t know why it happened yet. We already know that Britney Spears, music icon, had her custody taken away of her two toddler boys, but now no even visitation rights, not even supervised visitation rights. Now, that took some doing, Kareen Wynter, CNN correspondent joining us there in L.A. You`ve really got to do a backbend to get even your supervised visitation taken away.

KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Nancy, this has to be the biggest blow for the pop star to date. And what a difference a week makes. You know, last week this time, Britney`s camp had called that ex-parte emergency hearing, you know, Britney wanted more visitation rights. She was granted by the commissioner that once-a-week, overnight visitation with her children, which, you know, she`d been fighting for. We all saw her leaving the courthouse in her Mercedes smiling, and now fast-forward to a week. She`s been stripped of it all. All the reports that are out there - - and there are many of them, Nancy. We haven`t been able, of course, to confirm them -- point to her cell phone, that she didn`t receive a call, that the reception was bad, so it`s one excuse after another.

GRACE: Kareen, Kareen, Elizabeth, please put Kareen back up. Kareen?

WYNTER: Nancy?

GRACE: You know what? I`m embarrassed for you that you would even say it was her cell phone`s fault.

WYNTER: No, no, these are the reports that we`re hearing. We haven`t been able to confirm it. But it kind of gives some insight as to what happened here. The court`s not going to be forthcoming and say, "This is why, you know, we yanked custody." So trying to fill in the puzzle here, because I`m confused. I don`t know if viewers can make sense of this.

GRACE: Kareen, actually, you know what? She may very well have said that, because it`s always been somebody else`s fault. You`re actually right. I withdraw my objection to what you said. Joining me in L.A., Kareen Wynter. She`s CNN correspondent with the latest on the Spears story.

And you are seeing video from Hollywood.TV -- joining us also tonight, Tom O`Neil, senior editor at "InTouch Weekly." I believe it is your publication, Tom O`Neil, that has disseminated that it was the cell phone`s fault. Could you please explain that to me?

TOM O`NEIL, "INTOUCH WEEKLY": Oops, she missed another drug test, Nancy. Can you believe it? Earlier this month when she had those kids taken away the last time, on October 1st, the judge said, "Wait a minute, you overslept twice for drug tests and weren`t available for another one?" Well, now this time it was a cell phone charge when we asked what went wrong. She said, well, the cell phone coverage that I get in Malibu is just terrible.

Well, since then there`s been another report that she actually gave the cell phone number to the random drug tester. The number she gave was to her ex-assistant, and it may even have been an old number from the ex- assistant.

GRACE: Oh, man. When you would think, Dr. Bethany Marshall, about wanting to see your children and having them taken away from you, and you`ve got this one chance to see them a week, supervised visitation, and you give the wrong phone number?

I was just saying how I just found out, as we were sitting on the air, that my bassinets have come for the twins? I gave them 50 numbers where they could call in case I wasn`t there -- which I was not -- when they arrived, because I wanted them to be there and be ready when the twins come. And, I mean, back up numbers, the secretary`s number, the producer`s number, my family`s number in Macon. Everybody has the number so the bassies will arrive. And this? I mean, hasn`t she ever heard of a land line? A home phone?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I will tell you what Britney Spears has been told. In the world of drug testing, a no-show is considered a positive, because this is the oldest trick in the world for addicts. It`s their version of "a dog ate my paper." You know, it`s like, oh, I couldn`t get the car to start. My phone didn`t ring.

GRACE: The dog ate the homework.

(CROSSTALK)

MARSHALL: Yeah, exactly. It`s that whole thing. But if she is so unresponsive to the judge, to the court, to her kids, what is she going to do when she`s home alone with them, and they`re crying, and she needs to pick them up and hold them? And if she were in a drug mood-altered state, how could she respond to a baby in need if she can`t respond to a phone call?

GRACE: Back to Kareen Wynter, what about the parenting coach? Wasn`t she supposed to have a parenting coach come into the home and help her learn? I would love to have a parenting coach. I don`t know how to fold a diaper. Or have you ever heard of swaddling? I just found out about it. I don`t know anything about it. I`d like somebody to tell me about it.

WYNTER: Sure, Nancy, there was a parenting coach, you know, for the oversight visits, and even the ones during the week. Remember, she can see the children, but those were supervised, and she has to hand them over in the middle of the day. But once a week, the judge agreed that she could have those overnight visits.

But, look, Nancy, we`re talking about Britney Spears as if she`s a logical, rational human being right now. She clearly, according to court documents, has a drug problem, so lest we forget that, we`re talking about her as if, you know, she`s any mom out there who`s in a bitter custody fight. That`s not the case. She has serious problems here.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Jerry in Indiana. Hi, Jerry.

CALLER: Hi, I wanted to say congratulations and calm down before you have those kids real hyperactive.

GRACE: I`m trying. You know, they`re already hyperactive. They`re trying to claw their way out already. OK.

CALLER: My question is, since they`re not married anymore and it`s been such a contentious divorce, why would the judge have them to have counseling together?

GRACE: I wonder if it was just about how to parent under those exact circumstances you`re talking about, how to not trash the other spouse, the ex-spouse. What is that, Bethany Marshall, the parenting classes and making them go to counseling together?

MARSHALL: Well, first of all, in this case, I think parenting shmarenting, because if you`re in an altered state, you don`t learn new behaviors. But I think what it`s really about is learning not to alienate the other parent, because parental alienation is a form of child abuse, and that`s what the judge addressed in the documents, was not dissing the other parent, basically.

GRACE: Exactly. I think, Bethany, that you hit the nail on the head.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Trenny Stovall out of Atlanta, Richard Herman, New York, Renee Rockwell, Atlanta, Trenny, we`re all talking about Britney Spears, but what about the children? How is all of this affecting them?

TRENNY STOVALL, CHILD CUSTODY ADVOCATE: They don`t have the benefit of having both of their parents. This is really ridiculous. These are babies less than 3 years old, I think 1 1/2 and 2 1/2. They need her in their lives. And she just basically screwed it all up.

The courts may -- this is going to work against her getting custody of them permanently. I think she`s setting the stage to lose custody of these children permanently, and we better pray that Kevin Federline is really the father that we`re all now seeing that he is compared to her.

GRACE: Renee Rockwell, you and I have seen it, you on the defense side, me on the state side, when people don`t show up to court, they`ve got every excuse in the book. "I overslept, I had another court date," I love that one, which means they`re charged with something else in another jurisdiction. "My car broke down, my lawyer didn`t tell me," blah, blah, blah. That`s what this sounds like.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, every trick in the book, but you know what? I can tell you there is a happy ending in some of these stories, because with child custody and visitation, it`s never over, it`s never chiseled in stone, and she can pull her way out of this.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Nicole in New York, hi, Nicole.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I just wanted to say congratulations.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

CALLER: I`m a friend.

GRACE: Thank you so much.

CALLER: I was just wondering, how come they don`t check up on her ex- husband Kevin as much as they do on Britney?

GRACE: You know, I`ve been asking that, too. To Richard Herman, she`s been ordered to have drug testing, she`s been ordered to parenting classes. I think he should get a dose of that medicine.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we don`t have any evidence of that, Nancy. She`s out of control. This is $100 million train wreck. Forget about custody or shared custody. This girl is going to be in prison. She`s going to go away for a long time.

GRACE: Number one, Richard Herman, number one, she`s a grown woman, she`s not a girl.

HERMAN: She`s a train wreck, Nancy.

(CROSSTALK)

HERMAN: Nancy, she`s $100 million train wreck.

GRACE: So? He may be, too, but we just don`t know.

HERMAN: We don`t know that.

GRACE: Yes, that`s my point.

HERMAN: She`s violating every order.

GRACE: That is Nicole`s point. We don`t know.

HERMAN: There`s no accusations that he`s violating any court order. There`s a finding that she`s a habitual drug user. She belongs in prison. This girl is going down. This woman is going down.

GRACE: You got me. You`re absolutely right. She has violated a court order and Federline has not.

To Michelle in New Hampshire, hi, Michelle.

CALLER: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: I want to know -- I know in the state of New Hampshire you can lose your parental rights for this. I want to know if she`s on the verge of losing all her parental rights for her train wreck behavior?

GRACE: Tom O`Neil, joining us from "InTouch Weekly," I have long said, because I`ve seen it in court, a mom has to be lying on the courthouse steps in a thong shooting up heroin before they will finally sever parental rights. Where are we in that spectrum with Spears?

O`NEIL: Well, it looks as if the judge is serious about the thing he told her on October 1st, was if you miss one more test, regardless of what the reason is, we`re going to consider it a failed test. So that means she`s probably not going to see these kids until October 26th.

But, you know, this drug scene you just painted, Nancy, we have seen this with Britney this year. What that bodyguard testified to was that, within days of her getting out of rehab earlier this year, she was in a hotel room filled with empty booze bottles, with crystal meth pipes, and with cocaine on the dresser.

GRACE: To Dr. Marty Mackary, how will a change in habit or schedule affect children this young, toddlers?

MACKARY: Well, the main concern is that of detachment. When a child has the trauma of losing a loved one and not seeing them on a regular basis, or the anxiety or fear of not seeing someone that they`re attached to, they can become detracted.

GRACE: Detracted, what is that?

MACKARY: They simply don`t assimilate into their regular culture.

GRACE: Got you.

Everyone, we`ll all be right back taking your calls live. But first, "CNN Heroes."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GLORIA ESTEFAN, MUSICIAN: Any human being, that`s all we ever want, to somehow be effective, be positive in other people`s lives, but for the community that is paralyzed, you`re dependent on everyone else around you. I`m Gloria Estefan. I`m Gloria Estefan, and my hero is Marc Buoniconti, because despite being a quadriplegic, he`s on his way to find the cure for paralysis.

MARC BUONICONTI, "MEDICAL MARVEL": In 1985, I was playing college football for the Citadel. My father was NFL Hall of Fame linebacker Nick Buoniconti.

ESTEFAN: He was hoping to follow at least in his father`s footsteps, and in one fell swoop, everything came crashing down.

BUONICONTI: I made a tackle. And next thing I know, I fell to the turf like a ton of bricks, and I knew right away that I was paralyzed in a split second. Dr. Barth Green and my father and myself vowed that we would do everything in our power to raise the money and awareness to find a cure. And that`s how the Miami Project began.

We bring together all different experts from all different fields under one roof, all studying on spinal cord injury.

ESTEFAN: He is spearheading that cause. He goes out there and talks about it and educates people as to what`s going on.

BUONICONTI: Don`t the astrocytes multiply, too?

I interact with patients and doctors and donors, putting together events and making those important phone calls. And there`s not a week that goes by that I don`t hear from families of someone who`s been paralyzed, and they have nowhere to turn, except for the Miami Project.

I`ve see the science. I`ve seen ignorance crumble. It just motivates me more. We are so close, and we`re not going to stop until we help everyone get out of these chairs.

ESTEFAN: His spirit is what really draws me to him, because he has purpose, and he doesn`t allow anything negative to bring him down. I think we are going to see a cure thanks to the efforts of Mark and his family. He took the bull by the horns, and he really has made a difference.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: To "Headline Prime`s" Glenn Beck, hi, friend.

GLENN BECK, HOST: It is amazing to me how much time Ellen DeGeneres and her tiny little dog are getting. I mean, my heart goes out to her, but, you know, President Bush decided to carefully choose the words "World War III" that he included in his speech yesterday. I think maybe we should reorder our priorities. And we`ll do that in just a bit.

Then, birth control for 11-year-olds. That`s what a school district in Maine is planning on doing. To put it mildly, bad idea?

And Rush Limbaugh will join me. We`ll talk about his spat with the Democrats and who he would vote for if he had to today. Don`t miss it.

GRACE: Britney Spears losing even supervised visitation rights. Out to the lines, Patty in Pennsylvania. Hi, Patty.

CALLER: Hi. I love you so much, Nancy. I think you`re great.

GRACE: Patty, thank you for watching. What`s your question, dear?

CALLER: Well, my question is, I was going through a custody battle with my ex-husband, and I was devastated, but yet we see Britney on TV laughing, and smiling, and shopping. And I can`t understand her attitude, when she knows her children are, you know, getting swiped away from her.

GRACE: And what`s so interesting, Patty in Pennsylvania, is some of that footage was taken the day Federline showed up to court, and she wasn`t in court. Mike Brooks, advice?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE: I`ll tell you what, Nancy, if this judge has any gumption at all about making himself look serious about this, he should order her -- number one, find her in contempt of court, order a 72-hour screening, because she`s a danger to herself and others, AKA these kids.

GRACE: Bottom line, a hearing is set up in just a few weeks for Britney Spears, right now even lost supervised visitation. That`s tough to do in our country.

Let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Randell Olguin, just 24, Ralls, Texas, killed, Iraq. On his second tour, he had a huge love of life, three-mile runs, baseball, football. Leaves behind parents Sid and Gayle, brother, Jose, sisters, Jenny, Anita and Janet, grandma, Virginia, and grieving widow, Anna Maria. Randell Olguin, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but most of all thank you for inviting all of us into your homes. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END