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Day Two of O.J. Simpson Hearing; Bernard Kerik Pleads Not Guilty to Conspiracy, Fraud; Missing Illinois Woman: Body of Husband's Ex-Wife to be Exhumed
Aired November 9, 2007 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Live pictures now in Las Vegas where this is going on. Was there a gun? Did O.J. Simpson have a gun? Did he know there were guns, if there were?
The answers may decide whether Simpson goes to prison or even to trial for that bungled confrontation in a Vegas hotel.
We're live, as you can see, right there in the Vegas courtroom.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Wife number four disappears. Now police in Illinois take another hard look at the death of wife number three, and going to extremes to do it.
We're going to get the latest from "America's Most Wanted" this hour.
I'm Kyra Phillips, live at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta.
LEMON: And I'm Don Lemon.
You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
It is day two, and here's a live look at day two of O.J. Simpson's probable cause hearing which resumed a couple of hours ago in Las Vegas. Prosecutors are trying to show ample evidence to try Simpson and two other defendants on armed robbery charges.
CNN's Dan Simon, he's our man on the scene.
And Dan, a question for you. Where are we at this point in these hearings or circus or whatever you want to call them?
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All of the above.
On the stand right now is a guy named Allen Morris (ph). He is the director of surveillance for the Palace Station Hotel. Probably a foundational witness for the prosecution. There were some snapshots of all the people at the hotel that night, so he can say, I had the equipment, I saw the people in question.
Earlier we heard from Thomas Riccio. He was a prosecution witness, but in the end he really helped out the defense on two fronts. First, the items. He says that the items that were in the hotel room, at least in his mind, he thought they were stolen.
How did he know that? Because Alfred Beardsley, one of the guys who was going to be selling the items, told him so. Also, Riccio helped out O.J. on the gun issue. Let's listen to that line of exchange. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never heard while were you in the room O.J. Simpson mention anything about guns, correct?
THOMAS RICCIO, PROSECUTION WITNESS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never heard him order anybody to take a gun out, correct?
RICCIO: Never at any time in the whole six weeks before or ever did he ever mention a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as you sit here today, you are totally convinced that he never said to anybody, take out a gun, correct?
RICCIO: In the room?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the room.
RICCIO: No, I didn't hear him say that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIMON: All right. Pretty clear here what the defense is trying to do.
They are already trying to plant the seeds of reasonable doubt. This isn't a trial, but you've got to remember, you've got a huge jury pool out there watching, and this could influence them should this case reach trial.
Right now Mr. Morris (ph) is the third witness. Still have five more to go. It looks like this preliminary hearing is going to go well into next week -- Don.
LEMON: So if this case reaches trial, when are we going to know from the judge about how this is going to go, if it goes forward?
SIMON: Well, there's not going to be any more testimony over the weekend. There was a chance, perhaps, that the judge was going to make everybody come in on Saturday. That's not going to happen.
Monday, of course, is a national holiday, so no testimony on Monday. Things will resume on Tuesday. There's a chance it may go to Wednesday and Thursday.
Hey, we're dealing with O.J. Simpson here, so, you know what? It could take quite a bit of time -- Don.
Fasten your seatbelts. You don't really know. OK.
Dan Simon, our man there on the ground in Las Vegas.
Dan, appreciate your report. Thanks.
SIMON: You bet. Thanks.
LEMON: Well, make sure you stay with the latest in the courtroom. CNN will be talking live with attorney and legal professor Avery Friedman right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
PHILLIPS: Now to Illinois and the search for Stacy Peterson. It's led authorities to refocus attention on her husband, a suburban Chicago cop, and the wife that he had before her.
The family of Kathleen Savio tells "America's Most Wanted" that authorities extend to exhume her body. Her family has long suspected that she didn't drown accidentally in the bathtub, as the coroner's office had ruled.
Prosecutors reopened the files on Savio's death after learning of Peterson's disappearance. In just a few minutes we're going to talk more with -- or talk more about this, rather, with Jon Lieberman with "America's Most Wanted."
LEMON: It is a major embarrassment, and it could turn out to be a major headache for former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani, who is now a Republican candidate for president. Giuliani's former police commissioner, Bernard Kerik, today pled not guilty to a list of federal corruption charges.
CNN's Mary Snow is standing by for us in New York.
And Mary, Kerik just spoke out. We heard him in the NEWSROOM just a short while ago.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He did, Don. Bernard Kerik, the former New York City police commissioner, did not take any questions from reporters, but he did make a statement just a few moments ago.
Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNARD KERIK, FMR. NYPD COMMISSIONER: I'm not going to talk about the case itself. I just want to say that I'm disappointed that the government has brought forward this case.
It's an extremely difficult time for me and my family. My life has been marked by challenge, whether it was growing up, being a cop, Rikers Island, the New York City Police Department, were the worst challenges until this time, my challenges during and after 9/11. This is a battle I'm going to fight, and I'll let me attorney talk about the case itself. (END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: And Kerik's attorney just made a brief statement saying that he believes his client is wrongly charged and that he says he will beat these charges.
Basically what it stems down to, Don, prosecutors allege that Bernard Kerik, while he was the city's corrections commissioner and New York City police commissioner, they alleged that he took thousands of dollars in renovations from a company that was trying to do business with the city -- Don.
LEMON: OK. So then Mary, give us -- where do we go from here? Is a trial the next thing? What happens next?
SNOW: Well, the next hearing that they have agreed to is on January 16th, and then, of course, comes a timetable of a trial. How long will that last? Of course this coincides with the campaign season, and Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani, of course, has been asked about this. He said yesterday it was a mistake when he supported Bernard Kerik to become homeland security secretary back in 2004, but, of course, just how much or if this will hurt him remains a big question.
LEMON: Yes. That is a big question, a big question indeed.
Thank you, Mary Snow.
PHILLIPS: Breaking developments from Pakistan now. Within the past hour or so, the government withdrew a house arrest order for opposition leader Benazir Bhutto. Her plans to lead a major anti- government rally were dashed today when police barricaded her home.
She spoke to her supporters by megaphone with police looking on. And government opponents did turn out in smaller numbers than planned and they clashed with police in several cities around the country. Bhutto's party says that more than 5,000 of its members were rounded up.
The crisis in Pakistan is far from simple. The government has close ties to the U.S. and is also is a close ally in the war on terror. And the opposition for the most part is hardly united. Former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton shared his thoughts on CNN's "AMERICAN MORNING."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BOLTON, FMR. U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: I think it's important people understand this is not a choice between democracy and Benazir Bhutto on one side and martial law and Pervez Musharraf on the other. This is a choice right now between secure command and control over Pakistan's nuclear weapons arsenal on the one hand, and chaos on the other. If we have chaos, we could have a radical Islamist regime in charge of those weapons.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: The people we see Musharraf arresting are not Islamic radicals. They're attorneys, they're lawyers, judges.
BOLTON: I think part of the problem is that we don't have a very good idea of what the situation is. I think, unfortunately, we've contributed to it, and this is one of these things when events can spiral out of control. And if you do that and those nuclear weapons fall into the hands of terrorists, we're all in much worse shape.
ROBERTS: Is Benazir Bhutto the savior of Pakistan that she and her supporters would like to portray her as? Here's a person who was kicked out of office twice for corruption.
BOLTON: Right. You know, just because she's a Harvard graduate doesn't mean she's the salvation for Pakistan.
Her administration was sadly no better than most other civilian administrations in Pakistan. That's why they call the military the "steel skeleton" there. We may not like it, but it's a fact of life in that country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: The White House today repeated calls for President Musharraf to cancel that state of emergency.
A Navy psychologist serving in Iraq moved the world with her famous list, a list of things that were good in Iraq and not so good about serving there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Watching the black helicopter with the big red cross on the side, landing at our pad, telling a room full of stunned Marines in blood-soaked uniforms of their comrades that they had just tried to save had died of his wounds. Washing blood off the boots of one of our young nurses while she told me about the ones who bled out in the trauma bay."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: Now Dr. Heidi Kraft (ph) has written a wrenching book about the brutal impact of war on the bodies, as well as the psyches, of servicemen and women. She's going to be taking your questions when she joins us in the CNN NEWSROOM this hour. E-mail us your questions now about war trauma or post-traumatic stress to firstname.lastname@example.org.
LEMON: When your star witnesses are more of a Rogues gallery -- the O.J. Simpson case and its cast of very colorful characters. What impressions are they making? We'll cross-examine a legal expert.
PHILLIPS: The drug maker Merck is offering financial relief to former users of Vioxx. Will billions ease the pain? We'll tell you.
(NEWSBREAK) LEMON: And Kyra just mentioned that as one of the stories we're working on. We're going to go now and talk about that story in Illinois and the search for Stacy Peterson. It's led authorities to refocus attention on her husband who is a suburban Chicago police officer and the wife he had before Stacy Peterson.
The family of Kathleen Savio tells "America's Most Wanted" authorities intend to exhume her body. Her family has long suspected she didn't drown accidentally in the bathtub, as the coroner's office ruled. And prosecutors reopened the files on Savio's death after learning of Peterson's disappearance.
In just a few minutes -- actually right now we're going to go to Jon Lieberman. He's from "America's Most Wanted." He has been following this story, and actually he breaks the news here that they are going to exhume the body.
Here's what I want to ask you. I said part of it had to do with Stacy Peterson's disappearance, Jon, but in 2004, a six-person coroner's jury agreeing with the pathologist in this case who did the autopsy on this, concluded that the 40-year-old Savio's death was an accidental drowning.
What has changed since then? I know you said -- they said Stacy Peterson's death, but what's changed since then, Jon?
JON LIEBERMAN, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED": Great question, Don.
It says accident right here. That's what they ruled back then, but now they are going back with a fresh set of eyes. Three things have changed, Don.
Number one, Stacy Peterson has vanished, Drew Peterson's fourth wife. That's the first thing that made prosecutors think, well, let's go back and just look at this.
Number two, new documents have emerged that show a pattern of alleged abuse between Drew Peterson and his third wife leading up to an order of protection that she got and then her death.
And number three, now the coroner has come out and said, you know what? I've reviewed everything. I don't think it should have been classified as an accident. I don't think it should have been classified at all. It should have been called unknown until we know more.
The only way now to get the true answers that they want is to exhume the body. And as you mentioned, we have confirmed that that will happen now.
LEMON: OK. OK. And the family all along, too, has been saying, you know, we think something is fishy in all of this.
Let me read this to you, Jon. In the inquest, a state police special agent testified there were no signs of foul play. One of the special agents in that said her hair was wet, there was a small amount of blood in the tub from a wound in the back of her head -- and this person -- investigators concluded that that cut came from a fall in the bathtub.
LIEBERMAN: When you read the full report, Don, which is interesting -- you know, I've got to say, a lot of times autopsies do get sort of rubberstamped by these six-member panels. In fact, state law has changed in Illinois to change the way that it's done now.
LIEBERMAN: But that's a discussion for another day.
LIEBERMAN: But when you read the small print here, you see that her head was bloody, here body was lacerated. She had bruises on her abdomen, indicating that she could have been punched or kicked in the abdomen as well.
There's a lot that wasn't reviewed with a fine tooth comb back then. So now, with a new fresh set of eyes, new people in office, they can go back. And they have decided to exhume the body.
And this is a major development, Don. They rarely do this.
LEMON: OK. Yes, I was going to ask you -- that was my next question, that this is a precedent, and you answered it.
And also, then, let's move on to this, because I talked about the family and mentioned them. This family, Savio's family, I'm sure what they are telling you, because you've been interviewing, is we've been trying for so long to get somebody to look into this and nothing.
Do they feel now that their voices are finally being heard about this possibly being fishy?
LIEBERMAN: They said today to us -- you know, they said, it's bittersweet, because we're actually going to have to bring up Kathleen again and then rebury her at some point. They said that's the tough part. However, they are overjoyed at the fact that they truly believe Kathleen didn't get justice in 2004, and that now is her chance to get justice.
LEMON: Yes. And one of her family members said, you know, this is -- they want this exhumation to be very private. They said, "We buried her once and we don't want a media circus." And you can certainly understand that.
LEMON: Let's talk about the police officer, Drew Peterson here, the sergeant.
Seen outside of the Bolingbrook home he shared with Stacy barking to reporters. That's according to a report from Chicago. "The media is terrorizing my kids." OK. So now the media is terrorizing his kids. Before he was allowing them into the home. I've seen reports from there in Chicago. He's been talking to the media and has been open with them. Now they are terrorizing him?
LIEBERMAN: Don, there's an easy way for Drew Peterson to get the media back on his side. Let's get a photo-op with him out there searching for his missing wife. We haven't seen that. He's done all these bizarre things.
LEMON: Yes. We're looking at video now...
LEMON: I hate to cut you off -- of him -- what's with the bandana?
LIEBERMAN: Yes, covering his face, putting the NYPD cap on, doing all sorts of bizarre behavior, barking at reporters. I just heard today he barked at some neighbors, too.
It's ridiculous. I want to see him out there searching for his missing wife. He hasn't done that, but he has been in front of a grand jury.
LEMON: Yes. And I'm sure a lot of people would want to say that. But just, again, we have to reiterate here that Sergeant Drew Peterson, he has not been charged with anything in this case.
LEMON: And so...
LIEBERMAN: Absolutely. He hasn't been charged in the disappearance of Stacy or in the accidental death of his third wife. But now that's getting another look.
LEMON: Yes. And you know what? We also have some new video, I'm being told, of the third wife here, Ms. Savio.
There's another picture of her, a very beautiful woman by -- from what I can see here. A very tough time for her family.
How much of this, real quick, Jon, do you think is going to play into the disappearance of Stacy Peterson now?
LIEBERMAN: We're going to see a lot of answers come out in the coming days, Don, and then a lot of this is going to be answered. I think they're making a lot of progress. They've seized a lot of evidence in the disappearance of Stacy.
LEMON: Jon Lieberman from "America's Most Wanted" on top of this case and has been since the very beginning.
Thank you for joining us.
LIEBERMAN: You got it, Don.
LEMON: The question of Barack Obama's patriotism or a political dirty trick? We're going to show you the controversial picture.
PHILLIPS: Now our Political Ticker.
First it was the Democrats. Now it's the Republicans.
GOP chairman Mike Duncan says five states will lose half their delegates at next year's convention if they insist on holding primaries before February 5th. The sanctions would affect New Hampshire, Florida, South Carolina, Michigan and Wyoming. Like their Democratic counterparts, Republican officials think the race to hold early primaries is getting out of hand, and so far there's no sign the states will back down.
Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul shocked the political world by raising a GOP record $4 million online for 24 hours. But now his campaign is returning about $3,000 of that money.
A Dallas television station reports that those donations were made by overseas thieves testing stolen credit card numbers to see if they worked. The Paul campaign notes that the fraudulent donations represented only a very small percentage of the money that was raised online.
Don't blame my wife, blame me. That was Bill Clinton's message as he campaigned for Hillary Clinton in Iowa. The former president was talking about his administration's failed bid to reform health care.
As first lady, Mrs. Clinton spearheaded that effort, but Bill Clinton says he's much more at fault. He says the proposal failed in part because he was so unpopular with many members of Congress.
And if you like where Barack Obama stands, you may not care about his hands, or specifically where he puts them during the National Anthem. If you don't, you might.
CNN's Brian Todd reports.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An anonymous attack e-mail received by an untold number of Americans and obtained by CNN accuses Senator Obama of not putting his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegiance.
True or false? CNN dug up the video of the national anthem from that day and found it looks like that photo was taken during the anthem, not the pledge. Hillary Clinton, hand over heart. Bill Richardson, same. Obama, hands down.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This was "The Star-Spangled Banner." It was not the Pledge of Allegiance. Any time that you pledge allegiance, you put your hand over your heart. And I always have, and I always will.
TODD: At the same event a year earlier, Obama does have his hand over his heart. Obama said that his grandfather taught him, during the Pledge of Allegiance, you put your hand over your heart. During the national anthem, you sing. There is some public confusion over the issue.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I suppose, I guess, if I am pledging, then that is probably more hand on the heart kind of a thing. But I could go either way on that either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course you do.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILDREN: One nation, under God.
TODD: Federal law instructs hand over your heart for both the pledge and "The Star-Spangled Banner," except for military personnel, who salute.
STEVE ROBERTSON, AMERICAN LEGION: Well, obviously, as the commander in chief, we would expect him to render the proper courtesies and honors to both the flag of the United States and to the national anthem.
TODD: The issue is not at the top of every voter's mind.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think there are more important things than whether or not you put your hand over your heart.
TODD: But, for now, candidates have one more thing to remember to do on the campaign trail.
(on camera): CNN could not determine the origin of the attack e- mail or how many people received it, but the Obama campaign has sent out this letter to supporters in which former military brass support Barack Obama on this issue.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
PHILLIPS: All right. Let's get straight to the newsroom now. Fredricka Whitfield working details on a developing story.
A five-alarm fire.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Right. And this out of West New York, New Jersey. Not to confuse everybody, but right in downtown West New York, New Jersey, and you're looking at the battling of a blaze of at least one building. But we understand that it may have involved two buildings now, and you're seeing that it is in the middle of a residential area, but the central fire seems to be taking place at some sort of office building or warehouse building. It's unclear if there was anybody inside.
And then the second structure, it's unclear right now what kind of structure it is. When we get any information on that we'll be able to bring that to you.
But you can see through the live pictures of how they are trying to fight this blaze on at least this one building, this one warehouse. And, of course, it's not clear how this fire may have started.
And now as you look a little closer, it looks as though this portion of the building may be attached to another structure there that looks an awful lot like a house or apartment building. But this structure right here still does look like bit of a warehouse. Some of the buildings a little connected there in this very congested part of downtown West New York, New Jersey -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: All right. We'll keep tracking it. Thanks, Fred.
When the star witnesses are a Rogues gallery, what impressions do they make on the judge? We're going to cross-examine a legal expert on the O.J. Simpson case and its cast of colorful characters.
LEMON: All right. We're looking at live pictures now on Las Vegas of this O.J. Simpson hearing and prosecutors in Vegas are spending one more day trying to prove they've got the goods on O.J. Simpson and two co-defendants, but they have to make their case with some less than stellar, as we've been saying, star witnesses. I see Avery Friedman there laughing. As we say that because less than stellar, obviously we know about these guys' past and when you know, you're dealing with this sort of thing, may bring out folks who are a bit different.
So, let's talk about what's going on right now. Of course, Avery, is a civil rights litigator and law professor at Case Western Reserve University, following the O.J. Simpson hearing for us. My gosh, Avery, can you see the screen, it looks like 1994 all over again, it just amazing. A lot of the stuff this morning with the sports memorabilia dealer, Tom Riccio. They've been talking about whether a gun was seen, whether gun wasn't seen. Someone says they saw one, another person said they never saw it. What's going on?
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, Tom Riccio who frankly testified with no surprise because he's a pal of O.J.'s said that he didn't think O.J. knew that there were guns there. Now, six of the seven people in the room saw guns, knew there were guns, but he said, look, I'm not sure that O.J. knew it, so to that extent he was a big help to the defense and remember, Don, this is the matter of a preliminary hearing meaning, all they have to need is probable cause in order to send this to trial. So, for purposes of what happened today, Tom Riccio helped the prosecution.
LEMON: OK. There was one point in the case where they were talking about how they were exactly going to -- if they were going to present this stuff. I think this was before the little -- I shouldn't call it a little break-in, before this bungled attempt in the hotel room. Riccio was speaking to someone about how do we get this stuff back? It was stolen from O.J., and one says do you still talk to O.J.? I didn't know that you still talked to O.J., why don't -- he doesn't pay his bills, all this kind of thing. What was going on at that particular point? Who was talking here and what were the circumstances surrounding this?
FRIEDMAN: Well, there were communications back and forth between Tom Riccio and Alfred Beardsley, and this is the guy who Riccio called an O.J. fanatic.
FRIEDMAN: That was what was going on. And there were thousands of pictures including pictures of his late mother and father and so Riccio's testimony went to that, that much of the material he believed was stolen. Beardsley said first it was stolen and then he said it was purchased from the licensing agent of O.J. So, there was that part of the discussion but the bottom line is that Riccio also testified that he was concerned about going up there with this thing without the right kind of backup.
LEMON: OK. Let's -- look at these pictures, you see O.J. there nodding his head. At some points, looking very confident and at other points, looking a little bit frustrated. You know what I found very interesting, and I don't know if it's telling or not, Avery, did you see that shot yesterday of that long line of attorneys? How many attorneys were in there for him?
FRIEDMAN: You want to know something? They're spawning like mushrooms, man. I didn't know there are that many attorneys in Las Vegas. They're coming out from all over the place but remember, there two other defendants, there is Charlie Ehrlich and others so that's why you have a number at least one lawyer per defendant and lawyers for individuals who are impacted by this.
LEMON: We're talking about sports and sports figures that almost looks like the bench at a football or basketball game. I'm not kidding, when they pulled back and we saw all those attorneys, we're like how many attorneys are on this. OK. Listen, we've got to run and we'll bring you back and talk to you. But keep listening in and keep bringing us your perspective. Thanks, Avery.
FRIEDMAN: Will do.
KYRA PHILLIPS, ANCHOR: Roadside bombs, suicide bombers and ambushed attacks. They wound the bodies and psyches of our troops in Iraq every day. CNN's Baghdad bureau chief, Cal Perry, took us inside a combat hospital right in the thick of the action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You all right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, all right.
We've got some oxygen on you, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened to you, man?
UNIDENTIFIED U.S. SOLDIER: IED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you on vehicle or on foot?
UNIDENTIFIED U.S. SOLDIER: Vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead and give him -- take him down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're going to go to sleep, OK? Try and relax.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stress is a good thing. A lot of pro athletes want to feel that stress, your adrenaline goes better, you oxygenate better and you perform better.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're in. You want to drop an Ng while we're at it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: You've probably heard the key word right there - stress. You saw it in that piece. It's every day in Iraq, trauma surgeons working in 24-hour operating rooms struggling to save soldiers, sailors and marines. Well, the mental strain is phenomenal, too, sometimes detrimental. Navy psychologist, Heidi Kraft understands it all too well. She lays it all out in a personal account, "Rule Number Two: Lessons I learned in a combat hospital." Doctor Heidi Kraft joins us on this Friday before Veterans Day to talk about the book. Great to see you.
DR. HEIDI KRAFT, U.S. NAVY PSYCHOLOGIST: Great to see you, Kyra. Thank you for having me here.
PHILLIPS: When you see that piece, I bet you get flashbacks, don't you?
KRAFT: It definitely brings back some memories, absolutely.
PHILLIPS: And you're right. Actually this was in -- as I was getting in to your book, you quote that hit show mass (ph) where it says: There are two rules of war, rule number is that young men die. Rule number two, is that doctors can't change rule number one. Rule number two changed your life, tell us why?
KRAFT: I think that coming home from that experience, I had such a different perspective on what was important, the things that we take for granted that we never should like our families, our health and some of the things that probably have made me a much better psychologist, a better mother, a better friend.
PHILLIPS: Well, what a lot of people don't understand about your job in Iraq, part of it was to be in that room, and I want you to sort of describe it and tell our viewers exactly what it's called where you were brought in as a psychologist to hold the hands of the dying and basically try and make it as peaceful as possible for them. Tell us about that.
KRAFT: One of the most difficult things about combat medicine is the idea of triage where we have to admit that there are some people for whom we're not going to be able -- every effort we have is not going to be enough to save them and the resources need to be spent on the people that we can save, so unlike anything we have in the States we have a place called the Expectant Room or the Expectant Ward, where we triage people who are very critically injured and there's a team of people that are in there including the psychologists sometimes to actually just provide support and comfort and provide dignity for the last moments of that hero's life.
PHILLIPS: And there was a mo -- you say that hero's life.
KRAFT: Of course, I was thinking of one person in particular.
PHILLIPS: And I know exactly who you're thinking of. You're thinking of Jason Dunham.
PHILLIPS: You didn't know who he was at that time. But there you were in that room holding his hand. Tell people now what is so miraculous about that story in so many ways.
KRAFT: Well, his status changed. He started squeezing my hand in response to my voice and at first, of course, everybody figured there was a reflex and he had a very serious brain injury but then he kept doing it in response to us, so we knew his status was changing so he was immediately medivac (ph) out of there, got to Germany, got to back home to Bethesda where his parents were waiting and he did eventually actually pass away of his wounds.
PHILLIPS: But Heidi, you're being really humble here because you were holding his hand and your heart started pumping and you looked at him and you said - tell me what you said to him?
KRAFT: I said, marine, if you can hear my words, you need to squeeze my hand right now and he did, so I knew that he was responding. It wasn't a reflex, it wasn't random. He was hearing me and that piece has been a big part my relationship with his mother that she felt really strongly that it was important someone was there with him, talking to him. I think we both like to think that he heard her in me that day.
PHILLIPS: And I think he heard all of you that day in the White House when he received posthumously the Medal of Honor.
KRAFT: Yes. In January of '07, the president finally awarded that medal to his family, the most proud moment of my life I was invited to be there with them. PHILLIPS: Now that -- Jason died, unfortunately, but there are so many stories in your book of those that didn't die and I know you changed a lot of names.
KRAFT: To protect all the names.
PHILLIPS: Right. That's right, to protect the patient's identity. So, I'm going to ask you about Corporal Paulson. Because this story brought me to tears and I love how you end with it. I probably shouldn't tell folks about what you do. Tell us what was so amazing about that moment, that experience with him and why you felt you need him and he needed you.
KRAFT: I saw this Corporal Paulson not his real name after I returned home and I was back at Naval Hospital Jacksonville and was struggling with my own reconnection back into our world, into seeing patients and kind of being back in the civilian world and the peacetime world and this marine came in with what called a conversion disorder. He was in the wheelchair but there was no physical reason for him not to have to use of his legs and so very rare in psychiatry to see this. What I did was kind of go back with him, as a person who had been in Iraq, we were able to have that connection. We went back through his memories to a very, very traumatic moment that he witnessed, and was symbolically keeping him from walking because of the guilt he felt. So once we worked through it, then he was able to allow himself to walk again. It was a fantastic day to see him walking.
PHILLIPS: And you write about that moment.
PHILLIPS: And he stands up and says to you, look -- what was it that he said to you?
KRAFT: Yes, he said, look at me, ma'am, I guess I don't need the wheelchair anymore. It was awesome.
PHILLIPS: Wow. We're going to talk about just you as a psychologist psychologically, things that you dealt with when we come back from the break and also answer a few e-mails if that's OK. A lot of viewers want to ask you a few things.
PHILLIPS: OK, great. We have a quick break. Dr. Heidi Kraft. We'll be right back.
PHILLIPS: Well, the book is "Rule number two: Lessons I learned in a combat hospital." Dr. Haiti Kraft joining us now. Ten percent of proceeds going to the injured marines, Semper Fi (ph) fund. We want to make sure to plug in there, we've got the Web site up on the screen and we'll bring that up for folks to just get the book and be able to contribute to that. I want to get right to the e-mails if you don't mind. Bill wants to know -- what do you think are the long-term implications for this nation with the large numbers of returning soldiers exposed to the effects of trauma?
KRAFT: I think that every war, as long as we've been going to war has been traumatic. This war isn't any more traumatic than others as far as I can tell. I think what's happening is, and this is good, is we're de-stigmatizing -- the act of asking for help. We know there are treatments for post-traumatic stress disorder that help people get function al again and feel better. So I think that hopefully, the military and our society, our leadership is coming around to saying -- it's OK to go and seek the help that you need, so I think the numbers are increasing but that's good. We're taking care of our veterans so the implications for the country, I think we're doing it right and I think we're taking care of people that need our help.
PHILLIPS: You know and you make no bones about it. You admitted you need help. I mean, you're a psychologist. You were there, you struggled, there was a time when you had to put your pictures away of your kids because you couldn't take it. Give us a sense for how you struggled and how did you powered through?
KRAFT: Out there I powered through like we all did, we put on our blinders, we put our pictures away and we did our jobs. And I think military people are doing that every day, no matter what they're up against. What they're fighting, what traumas they're exposed to. It's when I came home that it was tough and that's what my patients tell me that they as well that the reconnection is where you take the blinders off and get back to regular world and suddenly the symptoms start showing up, so I needed to be have enough insight to know that I needed my own assistance to get through the process. Certainly, writing the book was part of that.
PHILLIPS: Sure it's therapy, isn't it?
PHILLIPS: Final e-mail, this is from a marine bride. Do you think that all military personnel should receive mandatory counseling when they come back from combat including the leaders?
KRAFT: They all do. All of the services has moved to that, to a debriefing. Usually by a psychologist, sometimes a social worker and we sit down with groups, we go through group debriefing and then we have resources available for them anyone who needs or would like individual resources. They're available.
PHILLIPS: And you're retired now but you're still working with active marines, right?
KRAFT: I am. I see patients, active duty marines, all of them with combat PTSD and it's where I need to be.
PHILLIPS: Dr. Heidi Kraft, the book - "Rule Number Two: Lessons I learned in a combat hospital" and we just want to leave our viewers with a final thought. I don't know if you had a chance to see this but our Cal Perry took a number of photos when he was over there looking at exactly what you were dealing with and he put together this video.
MON LEMON: A Detroit organization is accusing court-TV host Starr Jones of skipping out on a speaking engagement last year and taking the deposit they paid her but Jones says that's not what happened at all. We've spoken with the head of the group making the acquisition and with Jones' representatives. Here's what we found out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STARR JONES, COURT TV, HOST: I've had enough.
LEMON (voice over): Never one to shy away from controversy in true Starr Jones fashion on her court TV show, she angrily denounced allegations she reneged on a speaking investigation with a group of full-figured young women in Detroit during Superbowl weekend in 2006.
JONES: I've become the target of a nasty shakedown that is simply untrue, unfair, and irresponsible and initiated by a member of the media.
LEMON: On Jones' Web site the contract with the group called Urban Solutions: Full and Fabulous says Jones was to be paid $25,000 for an appearance at a luncheon. Sharon Dumas-Pugh heads of the organization.
SHARON DUMAS-PUGH, PRESIDENT FULL AND FABULOUS: When we booked Starr Jones Reynolds for our expo, we really - I think we were her biggest fans and I hoped she understand that and it would not just be about business but it would also be about the concerns for the girls but that didn't happen.
LEMON: The contract states that half of the $25,000 was due in July, months before the February 6th event. When the group couldn't pay on time Jones accepted a smaller deposit, $10,000, and even extended the deadline. The contract shows the entire $25,000 was due 48 hours before Jones' appearance, but Jones says she still hadn't been paid. Jones and her husband got on a plane anyway to head to Detroit.
DUMAS-PUGH: I booked her flight for her and her husband. It cost $800 some odd. She turned around within an hour and rebooked, and it came to $1,700. I didn't authorize her to do that.
LEMON: When we spoke with Jones' representative he categorically denied that. He says that Jones accepted the tickets that were sent to her. When Jones got to Detroit, she says she was told she would not get the rest of the money. Her statement reads: "We therefore considered the contract fully breached and did not participate in the event." Because the contract was breached Jones was entitled to keep the $10,000 deposit. She says she did attend other events in Detroit Superbowl Weekend and that she paid for her own accommodation. Dumas- Pugh wants the money back and is suing Jones for $20,000.
Now, Jones representative say they have served Dumas-Pugh with cease and desist papers claiming defamation. Dumas-Pugh says she did receive the papers but she says since she's telling the truth the order does not affect what she's doing. Jones' representatives maintain that this was a for-profit event and that she often does speaking engagements for charities for a reduced fee or even for free. The organizers of the Full and Fabulous event say their event was a fund-raiser for a charity. Both Court-TV and CNN are owned by Time Warner.
PHILLIPS: Honey, that's not it. Grandpa picks up the wrong boy at school.
PHILLIPS: Now the critics speak out against global warming. This time it's the founder of the Weather Channel - meteorologist, John Coleman, minces few words in his article published online by Ice Cap, the international climate and environmental change assessment project. Coleman is now a weather forecaster at a San Diego television station. About global warming, he says, quote, "It's the greatest scam in history. I am amazed, appalled and highly offended by it. Global is a scam. Some dastardly scientists with environment and political motives manipulate long term scientific data to create an illusion of rapid global warming."
The next hour CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.
PHILLIPS: Benazir Bhutto couldn't go to the protest, so the protest came to her, sort of. The emergency rule hit former Pakistani prime minister and key opponent of Pakistan's president.
LEMON: It should have been the adventure of a lifetime, instead, it is a murder mystery. . An American student in Italy suspected in her roommate's grisly killing. We get the eye-popping details.
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