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NANCY GRACE

Cutts Gets Life Without Parole/Dead Infant Left in Basket on Hospital Driveway

Aired February 27, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A young Ohio mom nine months pregnant with a second child vanishes from her own home, her 2-year- old son found in dirty diapers home alone, possibly for days. The toddler tells police, Mommy`s crying, Mommy broke the table, Mommy`s in the rug. Tonight, a jury hands down life or death for the baby`s biological dad, now convicted of double murder, former cop Bobby Cutts. In the last hour, the family of the murdered mom, Jessie Davis, unleashes on Cutts in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five-foot-four, nine months pregnant (INAUDIBLE) deliver Chloe. Jessie was the voice of reason. Takes a pillow, chokes her out, whatever you did, you killed her. You murdered her violently.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I walked in that room, the presence of evil was so strong in there, you could hardly breathe, and I knew my daughter was dead. I never, ever thought she walked out of that room. And when you walked...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight: A night security guard at a Denver hospital makes a shocking discovery, an infant girl just hours old, now dead, just outside the doors of the ER, temperatures in the low 20s. Tonight: Police sift through reams of grainy surveillance video in the baby murder mystery.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A chilling surprise awaits a nighttime security guard outside Presbyterian St. Luke`s hospital in Denver. Moments after the hospital`s emergency call box goes off, the guard finds a newborn infant girl in a basket, the newborn rushed inside and pronounced dead. Tonight, police want to know who left this little innocent infant just steps from the hospital, a safe haven under Colorado law. And tonight: Was it murder?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And also tonight: Parents all over the country trust a school bus will bring their children home safe. But after a stunning Arizona school bus brawl, it`s a tough call who to fear the most, school bus drivers or the real-life mean girls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re not allowed to touch me, lady! I`m getting off the bus!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) getting off this phone.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quit touching my boobs, pervert!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop it. You are (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bullshoot! I did not assault you! You just (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sit down, now (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No! Get me the hell off, the freak off the bus! I did not hit her. I want to get off this (INAUDIBLE) And if she touches me again...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) off (INAUDIBLE) Get off!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I know one 15-year-old girl who needs one of these, a cake of soap for her mouth.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. A former Ohio cop on trial in the double murders of his 26- year-old girlfriend, Jessie Davis, and her unborn baby girl, already named Chloe, Cutts in court today as the jury hands down a life or death decision finally faces the murdered mom`s family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The brutal murder of Jessie Davis and her killer, her former boyfriend, Ohio cop Bobby Cutts, Jr. -- he`s getting sentenced today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have not (ph) lost someone. You got rid of someone that was an inconvenience for you. I thought at some point, I might be able to forgive you, but when I listen to Blake cry, I hate you! And it disgusts me that you`re here and she`s gone and that I will never get to hold my niece!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t even look at me. Just put your head down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a day I will never in my life forget. When I walked in that room, the presence of evil was so strong in there, you could hardly breathe, and I knew my daughter was dead. There`s mornings I have to cover her picture up or I can`t get out of the bed. And I just (INAUDIBLE) I pretend that one day she`ll walk through the door again. But you and I know she won`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let me get this straight -- 26-year-old mom-to-be, nine months pregnant Jessie Davis and her unborn baby girl, Chloe, they get the death penalty, but he doesn`t?

Let`s go straight out to Tina Kaufman with WAKR radio, in court today. Tina, what happened?

TINA KAUFMAN, WAKR RADIO: Well, as you said, two aggravated murder counts for baby Chloe. Jessie Davis dies, the baby dies, Bobby Cutts lives. Now, prosecutors at a press conference said they do think justice was served for the family because Patty Porter didn`t want death for Bobby Cutts. She wants him to one day be a man, man up to what he did, stop lying and be able to hold Blake again and actually be a father. She`s happy with the sentence, and the prosecutors think justice was served.

GRACE: Did anyone on the jury speak after the verdict?

KAUFMAN: Actually, yes. The jury foreman does tell the Associated Press they pretty quickly decided against the death penalty, and that`s because Cutts had no prior history of violence. They also said he hurt himself by taking the stand because he wasn`t believable, but yet they also didn`t believe he intentionally killed Jessie Davis. They agreed to aggravated murder, they say, because he could have saved the baby`s life, but he chose not to.

GRACE: I`m stunned! Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka. Susan Moss, the pregnant mom gets the death penalty and Bobby Cutts doesn`t? I don`t understand.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: That is true. But when you lead authorities to your victim`s grave, apparently, in the end, your life will be saved. The one reason that I can understand this maybe is because he did, at the end, lead the authorities to the body so that the family could have closure.

GRACE: You know, let`s go out to the lines. To Dee in Illinois. Hi, Dee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on your beautiful babies.

GRACE: Thank you, Dee. Thank you so much. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I have a comment and a question. I noticed that today Bobby Cutts cried real tears.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my question would be, what would possibly have been the mitigating circumstances that spared him the death penalty?

GRACE: Out to Tina Kaufman with WAKR radio. Tina, what would have been the mitigating circumstances, other than finally, after many, many days of her body decomposing, he leads police to the body of his unborn child and girlfriend, nine months pregnant? Other than that, what`s the mitigating circumstance?

KAUFMAN: Well, according to the jury, it`s that he had no prior history of violence. You know, he had a misdemeanor from 10 years ago, but they didn`t consider that enough. And they must have agreed with the defense that out of 10 days of his life, he made poor decisions, as opposed to the 30 years he`s been living. That`s the only conclusion that we`ve drawn from this.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wait! Tina, did I hear you say he made poor decisions?

KAUFMAN: That`s what the defense -- that`s what the defense quoted. They said...

GRACE: He killed her!

KAUFMAN: I agree. I agree. This is what the defense says.

GRACE: Even with the baby`s own words, who clearly observed the murder of his mother -- Mommy`s crying, Mommy`s in the rug -- clearly, there was a period of time, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, leading up to the actual death that caused -- confirmed premeditation in this case. Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I`ll agree with you with that. But Nancy, this is a guy with no record. And it sounds to me like the mother of the dead girl did not want his life just extinguished. She wanted him to see the baby again, to hold Blake. That weighed in on it, Nancy, I can tell you that right now.

GRACE: Oh, OK, let me get this straight, Alan Ripka. She wants him to hold baby Blake. Is that the same baby he left there alone in the home in dirty diapers for several days and threw, I believe it was, some hamburger buns onto the bed for the baby to eat, then put the buns up on the top shelf? Is that the same dad we want now to hold the baby?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, the reason that they have hearings after a trial to determine sentencing, whether it be life or whether it be the death sentence, is because all these extenuating circumstances come into play. Family members testify. You look at his history. You look at what he did for a living. You look at his past criminal record. And in this particular case...

GRACE: You know, you might as well stop with the past criminal record. Ted Bundy didn`t have a criminal record before, either. I`m not impressed.

RIPKA: Well, Nancy, according to that, we might as well just find anyone convicted of murder and give them the death penalty because there`s no reason...

GRACE: I`m sorry, I...

RIPKA: ... for hearing.

GRACE: I couldn`t hear you. Someone was in my ear. Did you say we might as well find what?

RIPKA: Well, according to what you`re saying, you might as well not have a hearing after the trial and just convict everybody to death who commits a murder.

GRACE: No. No, no. The jury had already said this was an aggravated murder because there are two dead people. And frankly, Alan Ripka, there aren`t that many double murderers wandering around out there. It`s not every trial, as you would like to portray it.

RIPKA: Well, in this particular case, the jury, who was in the courtroom, who listened to the testimony, felt that this man deserved not to die. And whatever their personal reasons are, we rely upon jurors to make those decisions.

GRACE: You know what? That`s not even what I asked you. I appreciate the sermon, Preacher, but what I asked you was this father, the one that`s now going to hold the baby there at visiting hours at the penitentiary -- is he the same one that left the baby alone for days on end, only throwing some hamburger buns out on top of one of the beds for the baby to find on his own and eat, and he sat by, didn`t go to that home, didn`t check on that baby, didn`t alert anybody while the mom was dead? That`s the same dad, right?

RIPKA: It`s the same dad.

GRACE: OK. That`s all I wanted to know. To Sherryl...

ROCKWELL: Nancy, he`s just lucky there was not another dead baby. But you have what you have, and he`s...

GRACE: He`s lucky?

ROCKWELL: ... spending 57 years in jail. That is apparently enough, Nancy. Not everybody gets the death penalty.

GRACE: Renee, I know very well that not everybody gets the death penalty. Your argument is full of fallacy. Very few people commit aggravated murder, and the death penalty is reserved for very unique cases such as this. So let`s not pretend it`s a blanket sentence for everyone charged with murder.

Out to the lines. To Sherryl in Ohio. Hi, Sherryl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. And I want to congratulate you with your babies.

GRACE: Thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my question...

GRACE: In stories like this, when I think of baby Chloe, who never got a chance to live, to breathe the air, to have her mother hold her in her arms, to grow up -- I don`t know. I disagree with the jury. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know what gives him the right to even see his family and his family visit him, when they can`t even visit their dead daughter and their grandchild? Why should he ever get to lay another hand on that child of his?

GRACE: Let`s go to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, a former D.C. cop. You know, Mike, we have seen it all between the two of us, and I`m very stunned at the jury`s verdict today. Everybody acts like, Oh, the jury handed down the verdict, it`s sacrosanct, it`s holy. It`s not. It`s the opinion of 12 people. I disagree with it.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You know, Nancy, I disagree with it myself. I guess it`s the best we`ve got with the criminal justice system, with the jury system the way it is. But you know, let`s do away with lethal injection, Nancy. Let`s bring back Old Sparky, so if people like this animal ever are put to death, maybe they`ll suffer a little bit more, like the people they killed!

GRACE: You know, I don`t care about making them suffer. I don`t care about torturing any human being. It`s just that this lady and this little baby got the death penalty in the most heinous circumstances, Mike, with the little boy watching, the 2-year-old little boy watching the whole thing! He saw the whole thing!

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And the mere fact that he left her in that field for God knows how many days while she was rotting and he was acting like he was the -- you know, the grieving -- the grieving husband or boyfriend and didn`t even lead authorities to that -- OK, yes, he led them to the body in the end, but he had a chance to do it a lot sooner than that and he didn`t. So as far as I`m concerned, that`s enough to give him the death penalty.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Sherryl in Pennsylvania. Hi, Sherryl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love you, love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question was that -- and during court, he said he accidentally hit her in the throat with his elbow. Did they ever determine how actually she died?

GRACE: To Tina Kaufman with WAKR radio. I think her body was so decomposed, could they ever determine a cause of death?

KAUFMAN: No, the cause of death was definitely undetermined. However, the medical examiner did suspect with a certain degree of medical certainty that Jessie was strangled to death. A blow to the throat wouldn`t have done it.

GRACE: So bottom line -- to Dr. David Fowler, medical examiner and forensic pathologist joining us from D.C. -- I don`t know how that could be determined so much longer after the death, but a blow to the throat, a single blow to the throat, would that have killed someone?

DR. DAVID FOWLER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Good evening, Nancy. No, that`s a very, very unlikely situation, unless it`s an unbelievably powerful blow which has the ability to cause significant damage to the spinal cord itself. And quite frankly, you know, that is not something that you`ll see in human-to-human type interactions.

GRACE: Back out to the lines. Carol in California. Hi, Carol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. This absolutely astounds me, that the jury would say they gave him life in prison instead of death partially because they believe that he didn`t intentionally kill Jessie. And then we watched him try to describe how he accidentally killed her with this bump by his elbow in the throat. I have two elbows. I`ve bumped things and people. Mostly, that bruised my elbows. I have never killed a person with my elbow. Now, does this case mean that all of us who have elbows need to register them as lethal weapons?

GRACE: You know, the fact that his elbow could be a lethal weapon -- back out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka -- in this case, it was a medical impossibility for him to swing back his elbow and kill the woman, the 26-year-old nine-month-pregnant mom. In addition to that, Renee, he lied to the jury about it.

ROCKWELL: He did, Nancy. But somebody on that jury convinced the rest of them that that might not have been on purpose, that that might have been unintentional, so that had to weigh in.

GRACE: And to Caryn Stark. Do you believe that in certain situations, jurors just follow along behind one particularly strong juror?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I do. Nancy, that`s group think, where you have a very strong personality and then the rest of the people follow. It`s often human nature to do that. So I do.

GRACE: Back to Tina Kaufman with WAKR radio. Tina, to what penitentiary will he go?

KAUFMAN: We don`t know where he`s going to go yet. They`re still doing the paperwork. But as of right now, he is in the Stark County jail. And I do want to add, the jury foreman was against the death penalty when I sat through and heard them picking the jurors. So I`m not sure what to make of that. He said he would consider it, if he had to. And I`m not sure if, you know, that played a big part in the decision.

GRACE: I think that`s a very astute observation, Tina Kaufman. So bottom line tonight, 26-year-old mother and expectant mother, as well, nine months pregnant with baby Chloe -- they both got the death penalty, but Bobby Cutts will live free off our tax dollars. He`ll probably be back on an Internet dating Web site, like he was while he was alive. Four children will be coming to visit him behind penitentiary walls from several different mothers. Bottom line, life without parole.

Everyone, when we get back, a baby girl, just hours old, abandoned in temperatures down in the 20s just a stone`s throw away from the doors of a Denver hospital.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It disgusts me that you sit there and you don`t care. If you cared, you would have told the truth. You would not have let my sister`s body and my niece`s body lay there in that field and rot so that we could not even have an open casket to look at her one more time. Do you know what that feels like?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mystery of a newborn baby girl found dead in a basket outside a Denver hospital on a chilly night, the only clue the emergency call box button pushed by someone who remained silent on the intercom, then was nowhere to be found once the security guard discovered the newborn victim. An autopsy under way to determine cause of death as police comb through surveillance video for answers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A baby girl, an infant believed to be just hours old, left in temperatures down in the 20s just a stone`s throw from the door of a Denver hospital. Why didn`t the person take the child in, and maybe it could have lived?

Let`s go out to Nia Bender with 710 KNUS there in Denver. Hi, Nia. What happened?

NIA BENDER, 710 KNUS: Well, apparently, this happened at about 7:40 last night. There`s a call box for help that`s located just outside the doors for Presbyterian St. Luke`s hospital at about 19th and Franklin (ph). Apparently, somebody pushed the button to call for help. They never spoke a word. And when a security guard came out to find out exactly, you know, what had taken place, he looked down and found a basket with a small infant inside.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka. To Susan Moss. Do we have to prove that the baby was killed in order for the mother, presumably the mother, to face murder charges here, or would leaving it in 20-degree temperature qualify as murder?

MOSS: Absolutely. This was no Moses basket. Something happened to this child. Even leaving the child out in this temperature is enough to support a murder charge. Look, if there was a regular reason or innocuous reason why this child died, then the person would have given their name. Absent that, there`s some foul play here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A full-scale homicide investigation into just who left the newborn infant dead in a basket. And stunningly, the infant girl found right outside a hospital in Denver, a designated safe haven.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last night at about 7:40, apparently, someone dropped off a newborn baby girl. She was either white or Hispanic -- at this point, they haven`t released that information -- at Presbyterian St. Luke`s hospital in Denver at about 19th and Franklin. What took place was, there`s a help box that you can call for help outside of the hospital there. Apparently, they laid that baby in a basket there at the help box, hit the buzzer to get some help, and then took off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The temperature exactly 23 degrees when the infant baby girl was left there, just a stone`s throw from the doors of a hospital, which coincidentally and ironically is a safe haven where children, infants, can be dropped off, no questions asked.

Out to the lines. Laurie in Ohio. Hi, Laurie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First I`d like to say congratulations on your babies, and I love your show. I watch you every night.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a couple questions. Number one, do they not have some sort of surveillance cameras at this hospital? I know here in Ohio, a lot of ours have that.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks. What do you know?

BROOKS: Well, most hospitals do, Nancy. Apparently, there was some cameras directly across from where this call box was located. But apparently, it`s very, very grainy, but they`re taking a look at that, trying to enhance the video to see if they can find out exactly who this person was, how they got there, did they walk there, did they bring a car. These are things that they`re looking at as part of this homicide investigation.

But Nancy, the safe haven law, you just can`t ring the buzzer and run. You actually must hand the baby to a firefighter or hospital staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do not know who the parents are. If anyone has any information on who the parents or the guardian of this child is, you`re encouraged to call Crimestoppers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A chilling surprise awaits a nighttime security guard outside Presbyterian/St. Luke`s hospital in Denver. Moments after the hospital`s emergency call box goes off, the guard finds a newborn infant girl in a basket. The newborn rushed inside and pronounced dead.

Tonight, police want to know who left this little innocent infant just steps from the hospital, a safe haven under Colorado law. And tonight, was it murder?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The little baby obviously had a chance to live and it was dropped off, left in 23-degree weather, just a stone`s throw from the doors of this Denver hospital.

Out to Dr. David Fowler, medical examiner and forensic pathologist. Doctor, the degree -- the 23-degree weather, what effect would that have on an infant child, a few newborn?

DR. DAVID FOWLER, MEDICAL EXAMINER AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, depends on what the child is actually wrapped up in in the way of protective gear obviously. But children lose heat very, very rapidly, much, much more rapidly than an adult would. And so that type of temperature has a significant chance of causing the child to go into hypothermia. And obviously that is a lethal event.

GRACE: Back to Nia Bender, 17 KNUS.

Nia, do we know what the child was dressed in?

BENDER: We don`t. We don`t have any idea what the child was dressed in. The only thing we do know at this point is that they were left in a basket and that -- I think somebody really meant to get help for this child by hitting a call button but we have no idea how they were dressed.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Lisa in California. Hi, Lisa.

LISA, FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

LISA: Actually, I was just wondering how long after the button was pushed did the security guard actually go outside.

GRACE: Nia, what do we know?

BENDER: Within just minutes of that call button being hit, and nobody even speaking on that speaker there, he went out immediately to check and see what was going on. So there really wasn`t a lot of time that elapsed between the time that he walked out to go find the child.

GRACE: If charges are lodged, Renee Rockwell, what are we looking at?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I mean, first of all, we don`t know if the baby was dead or not. But by leaving the baby there that is totally criminal neglect and that would rise to the level of murder.

GRACE: What about it, Allen?

ALLEN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t believe there`s any possibility of murder here at this particular time. This baby could have been a stillborn, could have been born dead. We have no idea and we`re only speculating as to what happened here, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, if it were born dead, Susan Moss, what would be the reason for leaving it at the door of a hospital? Why not just call 911 to come to your home and try to revive the baby?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And why not tell who you are? Why not tell who this child was? This child I`m sure had a name. We may never know it.

GRACE: To Jean in California. Hi, Jean.

JEAN, FROM CALIFORNIA: Hello?

GRACE: Hi, Jean. What`s your question, dear?

JEAN: Yes, Oh, I`m calling from Canada, not California.

GRACE: Ah. Hello.

JEAN: First of all, I want to congratulate you on your baby and finding happiness.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very, very much. You know there`s two of them.

JEAN: Yes.

GRACE: John David and Lucy.

JEAN: And I`m very happy that you found happiness.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

JEAN: My question is, this woman, the Safe Haven law in the state there, she could have dropped it off at a police station, an ambulance, a hospital, fire department. She could have just walked in and left the baby. She didn`t have to give her name. That`s the whole thing of the Safe Haven law.

And in order to find this woman, she`s going to have to have a medication for all the fluids she lost when she gave birth because she didn`t give birth in a hospital obviously.

GRACE: Jean, what does it suggest to you that she just left the baby anonymously instead of trying to call 911 or get help for the baby?

I think I still got Jean in Canada. Jean, are you there? I guess not.

Susan moss, what does it mean? What -- oh there`s Jean. Jean, are you with me? OK. Susan, go ahead.

MOSS: Well, the fact that she didn`t give any information, the fact that she didn`t stick around, the fact that we know nothing about what the history of this child, it says to me that something no good happened.

GRACE: Out to Mike Morrisey, he is with Baby Safe Haven in New England. Mike, explain to us the baby safe rules.

MIKE MORRISEY, BABY SAFE HAVEN NEW ENGLAND: Well, Baby Safe Haven laws are really to keep this kind of situation from happening. The young woman should go into the hospital in the door and hand the baby to somebody. I say wear a hoody, put it over your head so you can`t be seen, so nobody knows who you are. But give the baby to somebody even if it`s the janitor in the door so that there`s hand to hand contact.

You have 72 hours under Colorado law. Give the baby to a person and you`re completely immune from prosecution.

GRACE: You know, to Caryn Stark, psychologist, some lawyers would argue post-partum depression as a defense. Left me ask you, Caryn, how quickly does post-partum set in after birth.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: It sets in right away, Nancy, but in this case I would be really surprised if it`s post-partum depression. It doesn`t make a lot of sense because it`s unconscionable. Really it seems there`s a misguided attempt here to get help, that the person really didn`t understand or was confused because the button was pressed.

GRACE: To Sarah in Canada, hi, Sarah.

SARAH, FROM CANADA: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on your babies.

GRACE: Thank you.

SARAH: I wanted to know two things. It`s the -- whether or not they find the parents, I wanted to know what`s going to happen to the baby. Will the baby be laid to rest? And is there a trust fund so that people can donate to lay the baby to rest properly.

And I also wanted to comment I love your necklace. I wanted to know if it`s a Molokai.

GRACE: I believe it`s turquoise.

To Nia Bender, what do we know about the burial of the baby?

BENDER: At this point we don`t know a lot. The autopsy was performed today. We won`t have results back from that for about two weeks but they haven`t brought up a lot in the way of detail yet for burial plans.

GRACE: Now is there -- there`s going to be an autopsy, I presume.

BENDER: It was done today.

GRACE: And what do we know?

BENDER: At this point we don`t know anything. They haven`t released any of the details from this. And it could take up to two weeks. They`re saying -- now the Denver police are considering this not a homicide investigation but a death investigation at this point.

GRACE: Any idea how old the baby was?

BENDER: No more than two days. They haven`t really elaborated.

GRACE: I want to go back to Nia Bender.

Nia, when you`re saying two days, have they given any indication about any identifiable traces on the basket, the type of clothes, the blanket, any indication as to who the baby belonged to?

BENDER: Absolutely not, unfortunately. That might make it easier. At this point about all they have said is that this was a little girl and that she`s either white or Hispanic. But that`s really the only information that we have at this point.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, police say there was no voice on the call box. How likely do you believe it is that it was the mother?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE, SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: There`s a good possibility, Nancy, because -- basically by pressing that button it`s basically like calling 911. You can call police or fire from those buttons. And you know -- but one of the other things we talk about all the time, Nancy, on this show when we have cases like this is education.

Renee and I were talking about it at the break. Education of mothers, prenatal care and along with that goes the possibility that, yes, you can use the Baby Safe Haven laws if you don`t want the child. We also need training in bilingual education, the same kind of thing, because this woman may not have known exactly what to do because we`re saying that the baby possibly could be white, possibly Hispanic.

So I think a lot more education needs to be done in reference to the Safe Haven laws, Nancy.

GRACE: Back to Nia Bender with 17 KNUS.

Nia, is it clearly marked that it`s a Baby Safe Haven?

BENDER: It is clearly marked that we do have a Safe Haven. And the Safe Haven law has been here in Colorado, it was enacted back in 2000.

GRACE: And it`s clearly marked?

BENDER: It is clearly marked.

GRACE: Everyone, when we come back, a stunning school bus brawl leaves parents all over the country wondering who to fear the most: school bus drivers or real life mean girls.

And tonight, APB, all points bulletin for special moms and dads. If you know a parent who`s an inspiration to others get that camcorder. Go to CNN.com/Nancygrace and click on i-Report and enter that parent in the "Extraordinary Parent Contest."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do not know who the parents are. If anyone has any information on who the parent or the guardian of this child is, you`re encouraged to call Crime Stoppers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMANTA TAYLOR, STUDENT: You`re not allowed to touch me, lady.

KIM SULLIVAN, SCHOOL BUS DRIVER: Get off or get out.

TAYLOR: I`m getting off the bus.

SULLIVAN: You are not getting off this bus.

TAYLOR: I am.

SULLIVAN: You get out of my.

TAYLOR: Stop touching my boobs, pervert.

SULLIVAN: Stop it. You assaulted me.

TAYLOR: And you bull shoot. I did not assault you. You just - freaking lady.

SULLIVAN: Sit down. Sit down.

TAYLOR: No. Just give me the hell -- freak off this bus. I did not hit her. I want to get off this bus and if she touches me again I will sue the.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I know a 15-year-old little lady that could use this, a cake of soap.

Let`s come back to the control room. Liz, I believe you have administered the soap technique to your two children?

LIZ, NANCY GRACE STAFF: Actually, yes, I have.

GRACE: With their potty mouth?

Let me tell you how much footage we had to cut out from showing you tonight when this young lady opened up on a school bus driver. And now we hear there are allegations of lawsuits.

Out to Wayne Allen with -- he`s the news director with 1110 KFNX news- talk radio.

Wayne, a lot of the morning shows only showed about 15, 10 or 15 seconds of this video where you see a melee breaking out. But if you look at the whole video, this young girl, Samantha Taylor, comes up to the lady school bus driver and berates her for quite some time.

WAYNE ALLEN, NEWS DIR., 1100 KFNX NEWS-TALK RADIO: Yes. That is very true. And just a quick side thing, it`s 1100.

GRACE: Oh, thank you, 1100 KFNX News-talk radio.

ALLEN: Yes. I know the higher ups here would be pretty mad if I didn`t mention that.

GRACE: Hey, Wayne, what happened on the school bus?

ALLEN: Basically, the school bus driver -- the video that you see, the school bus driver stops the bus and comes back to Samantha Taylor and starts talking to her. And then basically from there Samantha says, "Well, I`m just going to get off the bus."

Kim Sullivan, who`s the bus driver, doesn`t -- proceeds to stop her from getting off the bus and then from there, as you continue to watch it, it just escalates into what the -- what you just showed on the -- on your show right there of how it just -- how physical the confrontation got.

GRACE: Do we ever see the school bus driver actually hit the girl?

ALLEN: No. The only thing.

GRACE: Because I could not. And it was portrayed on other broadcasts as if the school bus driver gave a pummeling to the 15-year-old girl. But I never saw that. And I watched it a couple of times.

ALLEN: Yes. The reason we can`t see that is because the school bus driver gets behind the camera`s view when the main struggle breaks out. And we`re not able to see anything. We`re just able to see Samantha`s reaction of what Kim is doing to her.

GRACE: Well, now wait a minute, wait a minute, Wayne, you`re saying the school bus driver gets behind the camera. What about Samantha Taylor? I don`t see her pulled forward under the camera. I see her going forward toward the school bus driver.

ALLEN: Yes, because she was trying to get her phone that the bus driver had thrown under her seat. She was going -- once that happened, Samantha went for the phone and that`s when the main fight broke out between the two.

GRACE: What did the witnesses say, Wayne?

ALLEN: Basically that just both the school bus driver and the student, Samantha, just got into a really big fight. They were really -- you watched the video. They were pretty much stunned when everything really started to go down. So that`s really what the police got from all the students of what happened on the bus.

GRACE: So this is what`s happening on our public school buses.

Out to the lines, Sheila in California. Hi, Sheila.

SHEILA, FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

SHEILA: I think the school bus driver is in the right. I think that student is very rude and needs more than soap for her mouth.

GRACE: Man, you`re not kidding. I guarantee you, Sheila, if this had happened when I was growing up, I know my parents would have sided with the school bus driver. I have no doubt in my mind. I don`t know, Wayne, why did the girl keep screaming to get off the bus? What was the problem?

ALLEN: Apparently because she -- I don`t know. I guess she didn`t know how to react in that situation where the bus driver just told her, look, at the beginning of the video, you can see the bus driver asking her why are you on this bus, maybe you should find a different way to get to and from school. She`s like, OK, well, I`m getting off the bus. And then when the bus driver didn`t let her get off, she just started screaming.

Why she did that, why she took that course of action, I have no idea. I`m just.

GRACE: Well, Wayne, is it correct that this is not Samantha Taylor`s regular bus? So when the school bus driver sees a strange face, she says, why are you on this bus? That`s what I thought happened. Is that incorrect?

ALLEN: No, that is not entirely incorrect. Of course, I haven`t been able to get confirmation on what bus Samantha was supposed to be on or why the bus driver didn`t put Samantha on the right bus before they left the school. And so I`m still waiting on confirmation from the Hinckley school district on that.

GRACE: OK. Let`s go out to Caryn Stark.

Caryn, what do you make of it?

STARK: Well, Nancy, this girl was having a tantrum. That`s what I see happening. And the more that the school bus person was trying to confront her, the more she was having a tantrum. And what we know about kids having tantrums is you really, really can`t keep dealing with them. They need a time out. And she needed a time out.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, weigh in.

BROOKS: Nancy, apparently before this bus even left the high school campus, a Gilbert police officer spoke with Miss Taylor and told her to be calm. And the bus driver told her to sit near the front of the bus because the police report said she had been, quote, "loud and disruptive."

So apparently, there had been something that happened before she even got on the bus that instigated all this -- all that what happened on the bus.

GRACE: OK. Before we go back to the callers, take a listen to more of what`s going on on the public school buses.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAYLOR: You`re not allowed to touch me, lady. I`m getting off the bus.

SULLIVAN: You are not getting off this bus.

TAYLOR: I am.

SULLIVAN: You get out.

TAYLOR: Stop touching my boobs, you pervert.

SULLIVAN: Stop it. You have assaulted me.

TAYLOR: You bull shoot. I did not assault you. You just -- freaking lady.

SULLIVAN: Sit down. Sit down. Sit down.

TAYLOR: No. Get me the hell out freak of this bus. I did not hit her. I want to get off this bus and if you touch me again I will sue you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re being videotaped.

TAYLOR: Get the (expletive) off my phone, you bitch.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: This is 911. How can I help you?

UNIDENTIFIED STUDENT: We have an emergency on Arrowhead and -- hey, what`s the cross street? Our bus driver is insane. She just got in a.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Allison in Montana. Hi, Allison.

ALLISON, FROM MONTANA: Hi, I love your show and I cannot believe.

GRACE: Thank you.

ALLISON: Thank you. I cannot believe that this girl is going off on this bus driver and she is not being chastised, she`s not being chastised, rather, and yet the bus driver is now maybe getting up on charges.

GRACE: Is that true, Wayne Allen? Is this girl and her family actually suing the school system?

ALLEN: That hasn`t come out yet, but there are lawsuits in the works.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAYLOR: You`re not allowed to touch me, lady.

SULLIVAN: Get off or get out.

TAYLOR: I`m getting off the bus.

SULLIVAN: You are not getting off this bus.

TAYLOR: I am.

SULLIVAN: You get out of my.

TAYLOR: Stop touching my boobs, you pervert.

SULLIVAN: Stop it. You assaulted me.

TAYLOR: And you bull shoot. I did not assault you. You just -- freaking lady.

SULLIVAN: Sit down. Sit down. Sit down.

TAYLOR: No. Just give me the hell -- freak off this bus. I did not hit her. I want to get off this bus and if she touches me again I will sue the.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I`m saving this to 15-year-old Samantha Taylor, COD. This is a bar of soap, young lady. Please, don`t be afraid of it, use it.

Out to the lines, Rachel in Oregon. Hi, Rachel.

RACHEL, FROM OREGON: Hi, Nancy. I just want to say your twins are so cute. They`re so adorable.

GRACE: Thank you. I tell you what, I hope I don`t have to give them the soap. I hope they don`t have a mouth like -- a potty mouth like this young lady. Now they`re claiming they`re going to sue the bus driver, Rachel.

RACHEL: I know. It`s so.

GRACE: Incredible.

RACHEL: It`s unbelievable. But I have a question, Nancy. That third girl that is running up when the main fight breaks out, is that the bus driver`s daughter?

GRACE: I believe so. Wayne Allen?

ALLEN: Yes, that is the third girl that comes up, that is the bus driver`s daughter, yes.

GRACE: So apparently runs up from the back of the bus to get the 15- year-old off her mom, the bus driver. Well, all hell broke loose on a public school bus and now it`s going to clog the courtrooms.

Let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class Joshua Young, 21, Little, Oregon, killed, Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart and the bronze star. An accomplished artist, loved animals, football. Always wore a gold cross from his family. Dreamed of a career in the military and a degree in computer graphic design. Leaves behind parents, Donna and Anthony, two sisters.

Joshua Young, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.

And tonight a special happy birthday to one of our stars, Jill, the glam girl.

Everybody, we`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friends.

END