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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Soldier Accused of Killing Pregnant Marine Captured; Secrets of Warren Jeffs' Polygamist Kingdom
Aired April 10, 2008 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: We are, of course, covering late developments in the polygamy case.
But we begin with the breaking news in a mystery that became a tragedy and then an international manhunt. Well, now, exactly three months after Marine Corporal Cesar Armando Laurean disappeared, the FBI says they have him in custody in Mexico.
CNN's Ed Lavandera has covered the story from the very beginning. And he is joining us now with the very latest.
Ed, what can you tell us?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're still trying to piece everything that has been unfolding in Mexico over the last couple of hours.
But every indication we're getting so far is that this has happened in just the last couple of hours and probably just about two hours ago in the town of Morelia. Or that's at least where we suspect that Cesar Laurean is being taken to right now. And I'm not exactly sure where that falls in relation to Mexico City, but we're told that, within the next 48 hours, he will be brought to Mexico City.
And that's where we anticipate the beginnings of this extradition process to begin. It's not clear on whether or not he will fight that process or he will agree to come back peacefully. But he -- obviously, he probably will have that option.
So, we're trying to figure out those details on what will be the procedure here in the coming days, as authorities in North Carolina, not only from the state and local authorities, but, of course, the federal authorities who are desperate to bring him back. It's been three months since Cesar Laurean went on the run, after allegedly murdering a fellow Marine, a pregnant fellow Marine, in North Carolina.
So, he was able to make it away from that area by bus, we're told, to -- made the way from North Carolina into Louisiana in through Texas and down into Mexico. And, at one point, we know he came very close to family members that we knew that had in the town of Guadalajara, which is northwest of Mexico City, a few days after he was reported to have been seen there.
We talked with one of his cousins, who told us he was in that area -- in that area and had been seen there. So, that's when the brunt of this investigation just focus really turned south of the border. But, all along, officials in North Carolina said it would be just a matter of time before they thought they would catch up with him. And that's turned out to be the case here tonight -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Ed, we want to go now to Susan Candiotti. She's on the phone with us from Miami. And Susan has some new information.
Susan, what do you got?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, after talking with a prosecutor -- and he is telling that, of course, he would have been much happier if he would have been caught in the United States, as I'm sure Ed has mentioned, because there is no extradition if there is a death penalty involved.
However, they're happy, obviously, that they caught him. Learned some really interesting stuff here, Campbell, from the prosecutor, saying that, in the last couple of weeks, the FBI had seized a computer from Cesar Laurean's wife. Now, this computer actually belonged to her sister, who, like Cesar Laurean's wife, is also a Marine.
Laurean's wife had been using the sister's computer to communicate with her husband. They had been writing back and forth. And, among other things, he had been asking for money. But, from this computer, as well as diaries that the wife had been keeping, authorities learned that he wanted to come back to the United States. And, in fact, there was some thought that he would attempt to do so, to come back to visit his parents, who live in Las Vegas.
However, they did not. It is clear from the communications, according to the prosecutor, that the wife still is very much in love with her husband. And she was vacillating, according to the prosecutor, in her writings in her diary between loving him and saying that she was angry with him for, as he put it, from not being faithful to her.
However, the prosecutor added, even though she's still considered to be a cooperating witness, it is not necessarily against the law for a wife to be communicating with her husband. There would be a problem if she was providing him with assistance, sending him money. And prosecutors say, she did not do that -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Susan Candiotti for us from Miami tonight with that new information.
We actually have on the phone right now Dewey Hudson, who is the district attorney in Onslow County, North Carolina, where the murder took place.
And, Dewey, it's been three months. What are your thoughts on -- on Laurean's capture?
Let me interrupt you just for one moment, because we want to bring in Jeff Toobin, who is in Washington -- Jeff.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Hi, Campbell.
BROWN: We just wanted to get your perspective here on -- we just heard from the prosecutor. And what are expectations about whether he would fight extradition and how this plays out?
TOOBIN: Well, the only issue in extradition is, are you the person named in the indictment? The extradition is not about whether you are guilty of the crime. It is simply, are you that person?
So, often, people waive extradition, and -- because there's not really much dispute. Also, people tend not to like to be in Mexican prisons. They would rather be at prison awaiting trial in the United States. However, if he does decide to fight extradition, the procedure is very slow. It could take more than a year.
I don't think there's any doubt on how it will end. He will be shipped back to the United States. But he may decide to just string it out. And he could delay his trial for a year, fighting extradition.
Jeff, I want to apologize to our viewers. We had some confusion there. We were trying to speak with Dewey Hudson, who is the prosecutor in this case, and you couldn't hear his audio.
But we have got him back now.
Mr. Hudson, you there?
DEWEY HUDSON, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, ONSLOW COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA: Yes, I'm here.
BROWN: I apologize for that. Our viewers couldn't hear you initially. But we were getting your thoughts, generally, on Laurean's capture, given how long it's been.
HUDSON: Right. As I indicated earlier, we're -- I'm very happy that he was caught today in Mexico, but I'm disappointed that we did not catch him in America, because, if we had caught him in, say, Las Vegas, where we had information that he was heading or was thinking about heading, then I could seek the death penalty.
But now, since he was caught in Mexico, I cannot do so.
BROWN: So, the -- because of the extradition agreement, correct?
HUDSON: Well, that -- yes, that is correct.
BROWN: So, tell us more. Susan Candiotti was hinting at this after her conversation with you, but a lot of this -- in your investigation, you uncovered this communication that was going on between he and his wife. What can you tell us about that?
HUDSON: Well, I can't go into a lot of detail, other than I know that there had been some communication through the -- through the Internet between Laurean and his wife in between, Christina. But I'm not privy to all the information. And it wouldn't be appropriate to share that at this time.
BROWN: All right.
We were talking to Jeff a moment ago about the extradition situation. Is it your expectation that he could fight this? And, if he did, how long could it take to get him out of Mexico?
HUDSON: My understanding of the Mexican law is that the extradition process is that he can fight it until it's their highest court. And it could take a year or two is what I have been informed, but, hopefully, that -- as your other expert just talked about, he will realize that it would be an exercise in futility, and he would go ahead and waive and come back to North Carolina.
BROWN: So, Mr. Hudson, how strong of a case do you have? And, if you would, remind us, remind our viewers of the evidence you have in this case.
HUDSON: Well, I would love to do so, but it would be inappropriate to talk about the evidence, since he does have the right to have a fair trial.
And, as you said before, you're not going to be able to seek the death penalty, correct, at all? Is -- that option is off the table because of the fact that he is in Mexico, and that's where the arrest took place?
When I applied for the provisional warrant a couple months ago, or maybe almost three months ago, I had to make that determination then that I would not seek the death penalty, because Mexico would not even issue a fugitive warrant without me doing so. So, the death penalty is no longer an option.
BROWN: All right. Let me bring -- yes, Jeff, go ahead.
TOOBIN: Well, I just wanted to explain why Mexico has that policy. Most of the countries in the world that have extradition treaties with us also do not have the death penalty themselves. Mexico has a national policy against the death penalty. And they basically say to us, you have to agree in advance that you will not try to execute anyone we turn over, because we are so opposed to the death penalty.
So, we -- all jurisdictions in the United States, if they are seeking someone from Mexico, have to agree in advance not to seek the death penalty. And that's because of Mexico's national policy against the death penalty. That's true with most countries that don't have the death penalty. They have that sort of agreement with us.
BROWN: All right, Jeff.
Let me go back to Ed Lavandera.
Because, Ed, you have been covering this from the very beginning. And -- and prosecutor Hudson was just telling us that he -- he's very limited in what he's able to talk about, in terms of the evidence that they have.
But take us -- given the facts that you know, what you think they are likely to try to build upon in order to make this case?
LAVANDERA: Well, you know, the -- the amazing thing at the time when this story broke was that there were these protective orders in place we had found out afterwards.
And it wasn't almost until a week that Cesar Laurean was -- after Maria Lauterbach had been found -- had been reported missing, that Cesar Laurean's name came into the picture. And there was great controversy at the time over whether or not these protective orders, whether authorities acted quickly enough upon them.
In the end, they say, look, it didn't matter. Maria Lauterbach, they believe, was killed immediately after she was reported missing. But there was another three weeks where Cesar Laurean essentially was seen, moved around town. There was talk of a Christmas party at his house with other fellow Marines.
So, this -- you know, the authorities at the time kind of painted this diabolical picture as to what Cesar Laurean was doing there in Jacksonville, North Carolina. All along, they say -- or they had said at the time -- they're clearly backing away a little bit now, because things are changing -- but the entire time, Maria Lauterbach had been -- had been murdered already, they say, and buried in Cesar Laurean's backyard.
So, they are clearly going to go at this as being premeditated, planned. Remember, there was pictures and video that they say they have of Cesar Laurean going into a hardware store there in the Jacksonville, North Carolina, area, perhaps -- I think it was getting a shovel or a wheel barrel and some paint.
There were questions of walls in the garage and in the living room being painted as well to cover up, as they said at the time, hiding evidence of the murder, which they believe took place inside the house. So, they are clearly going to go after him as being someone who perhaps plotted this out, went to great lengths to cover it up.
And the whole idea that he had left this note that -- remember, he had written in a note that she had committed suicide, and that's why she was dead. I mean, they -- they have said from the very beginning they believe that to be a -- to be a farce. They don't believe that in any way. And they say, you know, they want to get him back, so that he can try to prove that, if that were indeed the case.
So, that's clearly something they don't believe happened.
BROWN: All right, Ed.
And, Susan, let me bring you in, because you have done a lot of reporting on this as well.
Clearly, no shortage of evidence here. Do you think this is going to be fairly easy for the prosecution to make their case?
CANDIOTTI: Well, that of course, must be determined in trial, once this gets to the trial stage.
It would certainly appear, from all of the things that Ed has been talking about, that there is a lot of certainly circumstantial evidence they have to put together. We still don't know, did Cesar Laurean, for example, have some help when he purchased materials from that -- from that home store, during the painting over of, apparently, allegedly, of blood or in fact in burying Laurean (sic)?
And, you know, Campbell, I just got off the phone with the lawyer who represents the victim's mother here -- that's Mary Lauterbach -- in Dayton, Ohio. And she tells me, through the lawyer, tonight that this information naturally has caught her by surprise. She was notified by the FBI about this -- this arrest, and that she is, in the words of the lawyer gratified that -- of course, that this arrest has taken place.
But, right now, she's way too -- way too shaken up to speak publicly, but hopes to do so very, very soon. That mother continues to seek answers from the Marine Corps. In her view, this is a murder that didn't have to take place. This is a grieving mother who believes that, had her daughter received, in her view, better protection once Maria Lauterbach had made these allegations of rape, then perhaps it wouldn't have ended like this.
BROWN: Well, she must have been growing frustrated, given the time that's past. Has she -- did she say at all if she's been in communication with them and following their investigation along the way? Was she surprised by this news?
CANDIOTTI: She was very much surprised by this news, although, certainly, the authorities -- she's been keeping up with the developments and hearing them say that maybe something would happen. So, she was hopeful, when I spoke with her just within the last two weeks personally. But, you know, you can hope and you can hope. Now, finally, it's happened, and her nightmare might soon be coming to an end.
BROWN: All right, Susan, stand by, if you would.
With us now on the phone, we have Amy Thoreson of the FBI's office in Charlotte, North Carolina.
And let me ask you, if I can, that Corporal Laurean has been a fugitive, as we said before, for three months. What can you tell us about the break in the case that allowed authorities to nab him?
AMY THORESON, FBI PUBLIC AFFAIRS SPECIALIST: Right now, we're not discussing the particulars of how we caught him. We are just saying simply that we took him into custody without incident.
BROWN: Well, does that mean he, we would presume, didn't put up a fight? Was he armed? Can you give us any further detail?
THORESON: He -- it was without incident. There were NCIS agents, FBI agents, as well as the Mexican federal authorities all there. And we took him into custody without incident.
BROWN: What was his condition when he was taken into custody? What sort of state was he in when you found him?
THORESON: I don't have those particulars. I haven't been able to have any lengthy conversations with the case agent right now.
So, tell us, though, more generally, how difficult the search has been, since he had managed to slip across the border into Mexico?
There have been ups and downs. We have -- we have gotten tips. We have gotten calls. We have gotten as much information as possible when it first started. And then it would, you know, slack off a little bit, and we would get more. And, you know, it has been an ongoing and a very active investigation since it began.
BROWN: And -- and was there something in recent weeks? Can you give us any sense at all of what led to this moment?
THORESON: There have been a couple of developments, you know, that have happened, things we have come across that were just in the event of, you know, an investigation. You -- you get something. You investigate it, and you follow all leads.
Things have been happening in the last couple of days, but I can't get into those specifics right now. We will be talking about all of that tomorrow.
And how much cooperation did you -- did you get from the Mexican authorities? THORESON: They have been with us every step of the way.
BROWN: We had heard the prosecutor speak earlier. Susan Candiotti had talked to him about this, about this communication -- the information coming that was found in a computer, the communication between the wife and he. Was that part of the investigation that led to this?
THORESON: That will -- that will have to come from Onslow County. You know, there -- we have very distinct rules in what we're doing. And any of the information that comes about the homicide investigation will have to come from them.
We're going to take a quick break here. We want to thank everybody staying with us. And we're going to continue to update this with new developments throughout the night.
Up next, though, we have got new secrets revealed about Warren Jeffs' polygamist kingdom, new insights into how authorities gathered evidence at his compound in Texas.
Also tonight: hiding in plain sight. He's suspect number one in the polygamy raid. So, why is he not under arrest yet?
And, then, later, one on one with General Petraeus -- CNN's Michael Ware with the questions that the top U.S. commander in Iraq wasn't asked on Capitol Hill.
We have got that and a lot more -- tonight on 360.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old were you when you got married?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sixteen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixteen years old. How old were you when you became pregnant with your first child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sixteen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 16. And this was an arranged marriage by the religious leaders of that town?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Her childhood and innocence stolen by men who believe God's will is to have multiple wives. That interview was from reporter Mike Watkiss' documentary on polygamy. The words you just heard sound similar to the allegations emerging from the Yearning For Zion ranch in Texas. There is a stunning new revelation that local police had a confidential informant who was once a member of Jeffs' church and the tips were being fed to the sheriff for years.
Why, then, did it take so long to remove the hundreds of children?
But, first, a message from a true believer. Since this ordeal started last week, people still inside the compound have stayed silent, until now.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Would you guys -- would you mind speaking just on camera just for two seconds, in terms of how you guys feel about what is going on in there, any comments, in terms -- you know, we just need a comment from your side. I mean, do you have any...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All we're getting is law enforcement's side. We're not hearing anything from you all. I mean, how do you all feel about this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's all one-sided coverage. So, I mean, how do you guys feel about what's -- how do you guys inside about what's going on out there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry. What?
How do you -- I mean, how do you feel about what's going on in there? Can you tell us? Any comment from inside at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn't hear you before. What did you say, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any comment at all, I mean, inside, or can you tell us what's going on in there, how you guys are feeling?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We always believe (INAUDIBLE) a free land. That's all my comments.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who all is left in there? Are a lot of people still left in there? Or, I mean...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No family, just men.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just men are left inside the compound?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many men do you think are left inside there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty, 30?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure.
I'm going to ask you guys to please stay off our property.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The property ends right back there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... truck coming in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We have got a lot of new information to tell you about tonight.
Let's get the latest now from CNN's David Mattingly -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They had an informer, knew the leaders, knew of the polygamy, and had their suspicions. But, for four long years, when it came to investigating any physical or sexual abuse of children, Texas authorities say, their hands were tied.
DAVID DORAN, SCHLEICHER COUNTY, TEXAS, SHERIFF: We did not have evidence of that crime until we got this first outcry.
Now, we are aware that that is a problem amongst the community. We have heard about that in other states. We met with law enforcement in other jurisdictions. And, yes, we -- we're aware that this group is capable of it. But, there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry, a complaint, and I have said that from day one.
MATTINGLY: Sheriff David Doran says he had an excellent dialogue with members of the polygamist sect, but, when authorities raided the temple, they found beds where adult males allegedly engage in sexual activity with female children under the age of 17. They found teenaged wives and mothers married to middle-aged men.
They found records showing one man who was married to 20 women.
(on camera): Prior to the raid, the sheriff says he had been down this dusty road to the ranch visiting several times over the last four years, but never did he see a single teenage girl who appeared pregnant or one with children. He suggests that they were deliberately being kept out of sight. And it's a deception that continued as the raid was going on.
The children were being shuttled from house to house to hide them, as authorities conducted their searches of the buildings.
(voice-over): Authorities asked a compound leader how many people lived there. They were told only around 250 men, women and children, fewer than half the actual number. The state found 416 children. A dozen had chicken pox. A state doctor says it appears none of the children had been vaccinated. One hundred and thirty-nine women left with the children. Authorities say they found only 65 to 70 men.
Many of those men tried to stand in the way and refused to unlock the temple doors.
CAPTAIN BARRY CAVER, TEXAS RANGERS: They opted not to do that. They felt like that, if they did that, that they would be aiding or assisting us in the desecration of their worship place.
MATTINGLY: Some of the men sobbed and prayed when the doors were smashed open.
After six days of searching, authorities have left the ranch and say only about 50 men and women are still there. Attorneys for the compound have no comment, saying they will do their talking in court. Residents are now free to come and go, wondering what will happen next.
BROWN: David is with us live now.
And, David, talk to us a little bit more about this informant, what we know, whether he was living inside the compound.
MATTINGLY: We asked authorities that.
The sheriff here says that he's had contact with this informant, that this informant is only -- will only be described as a former FLDS person. He does not say whether or not that person actually -- this informer actually lived here at this ranch, ever lived here at this ranch, and would not give any clue as to where or who this person might have been.
But he was clear saying that this informer has been in touch with him, has given him good information over the last four years, but no information that would allow them to build a case and go out and get a search warrant to actually go in and investigate cases.
That's not -- that's the missing piece that they had, until this girl called in, claiming that she had been sexually and physically abused by her husband.
BROWN: All right, David Mattingly for us tonight -- David, as always, thank you.
Police are defending their actions in waiting until now to bring charges against the polygamist church and to get the 416 children. Given that officials saw pregnant teenagers and had a confidential informant working for them,why did authorities wait this long before raiding the compound? And if polygamy and statutory rape are crimes, why have no charges been filed?
Well, joining us again, CNN senior legal Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeff, so, Texas authorities had an informant for four years. I mean, we're talking about abuse of children here. And a lot of people are wondering now why on earth they didn't make a move sooner. Could there hands really have been tied, as they have been saying?
TOOBIN: It's very hard to know what they should have done without knowing specifically what the informant said.
But, oftentimes, judges will not give an arrest warrant or will not authorize a search warrant solely on the word of an informant. They need corroboration. Plus, I think the -- the logistical difficulties of proving this case could be very difficult.
Just for example, who are these young women, these girls? Where are their birth certificates? How old really are they? And, you know, it is a crime to marry two people at the same time, but it seems like they did not have formal marriage ceremonies. What they called wives or what they called marriage was not a legal marriage. So, having more than one might not actually be bigamy. So, the -- the logistical obstacles to this prosecution are probably considerable.
BROWN: You know, it seems outrageous that they had to wait until a 16-year-old mother called to say that she was being beaten. And you wonder, how much evidence do you really need before they can go in and what defines -- if they're saying that they can't determine the age of these young women or whether or not they're really married, I mean, it's pretty clear that there -- that there were children that were in an abusive situation and young women who were pregnant, 16 or younger, right?
TOOBIN: Well, again, pretty clear is not -- is not good enough. They have to have specific evidence.
But I do think it's significant that the first thing the authorities did when they moved in was remove all the children, an enormous undertaking, removing 400 children. They did that before they filed charges against anybody, because the most important thing to do in a circumstance like this is take care of the kids.
You know, do I know whether the cops acted the right way? Absolutely not. I can't say that they -- that they should have acted earlier. But I think it's just important to recognize how hard these cases are to bring. These -- these communities have existed in Arizona, in Utah, now here in Texas.
And they often exist for a long time before cases are actually brought. It took a long time to convict Warren Jeffs. These cases are just very hard to bring, because the witnesses are -- tend to be these young girls, and they're terrified. And they generally don't cooperate.
BROWN: And that's what we have been reading and hearing about, is that the women and then the children that are in custody are not cooperating.
Anyway, Jeff Toobin, appreciate your time tonight. As always, thank you.
And up next: a woman who left Warren Jeffs' sect, and what we know about the suspect, Dale Evans Barlow, who is accused of beating and sexually assaulting a 6-year-old (sic) girl at the FLDS ranch in Texas. Yet, some are now calling it a case of mistaken identity.
We're going to explain that -- when 360 continues.
BROWN: Digging deeper into the polygamy case -- to shut the Texas compound down and build the strongest case against the polygamist church, prosecutors must turn to the children. The job will not be easy. They have been taught to fear the outside world.
How, then, do you get them to talk?
We are going to ask two people who know. Joining us now is Kathy Jo Nicholson, who was a member of Warren Jeffs' sect, before running away at 18. Also with us, Dr. Bruce Perry, a child psychiatrist who is working with authorities down in Texas. Dr. Perry is also the author of a book, "The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog: And Other Stories from a Child Psychiatrist's Notebook."
Thanks to both of you for joining us.
Dr. Perry, let me start with you.
DR. BRUCE PERRY, AUTHOR, "THE BOY WHO WAS RAISED AS A DOG": Sure.
BROWN: I know you can't discuss specifics about what's going on, but can you tell us what you found to be the biggest challenge, really, in trying to help these kids?
PERRY: I think the biggest challenge is that these children have grown up in a world where they have been taught that the outside world is to be feared. Their belief system and everything they've been socialized into makes non-believers someone you can't trust. Non- believers are people who may hurt them. Non-believers will disrespect and misunderstand their holy practices and beliefs, like polygamy and marriage at age 13 and so forth.
And the fear that's basically embedded in the way this is taught to these children and young women is so pervasive that it really has a chilling impact on any attempts to try and interview them.
C. BROWN: And I mean, you say -- I guess to say they're from another culture is almost an understatement. I mean, from what we -- what you were just saying to follow up, we've heard people say that they're told outsiders are the devil and that, you know, there are teenagers who have no idea what a crayon even is.
PERRY: Correct. It's -- it's very difficult for people who are from our regular secular world where there's incredible amounts of freedom and exposure to all kinds of things, to realize that these children, in some cases, are multigenerational products of a very insulated world view, where they haven't had any opportunity to see how other people live.
They've never grown up in an -- in a setting where they can have independent choice. And in fact, many of the beliefs they have, have been really hammered into them in a way that has distorted all kinds of ideas about other people and other beliefs.
And I think it's going to be a tremendous challenge for these children to make the transition from that -- that world at the ranch to the more secular world that they will end up in.
C. BROWN: Kathy Jo, there have been reports of kids who are unwilling to give information. And some case workers are getting a sense that the children are being told to be quiet. Were you and other FLDS kids trained in how to respond to questions about your lifestyle?
KATHY JO NICHOLSON, FORMER MEMBER OF POLYGAMIST CULT: Well, just like the doctor said, from the time that these children are infants, they're trained to believe that anyone outside of the community, outside of the cult is an enemy, is an alien. They're -- they're terrified.
I remember feeling that way. The difference that I experienced in trying to relate to what these children are going through is that I left. I ran willingly. And these children have been -- have been taken, thank God. And I'm sure they're terrified, because everything -- they were probably -- they were probably given their last word of wisdom before they left not to speak.
C. BROWN: Right. Dr. Perry, let me go to you again. We're learning tonight of complaints from some FLDS mothers that they've not been allowed to see their children. Is there a reason why the children would be need to be isolated from their parents? And how could that separation affect them? PERRY: Well, I think that the actions by Child Protective Service to protect these children, under normal circumstances would involve the separation of the children from the parents who were unable to protect them or the parents who hurt them.
And in this case, they've been very, I think, reasonable in allowing these parents to come along for this first phase of this separation.
But I think ultimately, assuming the court proceedings go as the way the state wants them over this next week, ultimately these children are going to have to be separated from these adults. And I think that that's the only way that this incredible cohesiveness of this community and the intimidating factors that are present will ever been loosened enough for these children to feel free enough to speak to the authorities about what has been happening in the compound.
C. BROWN: But can't that separation be traumatic for the child?
PERRY: Well, it will certainly be distressing, and I think that one of the things that the mental health team that's up there and the child protective people who have been up there working with these people, I think, have been very sensitive to that issue. And I think they're deliberating a lot about what is the best way to protect these children and to make that transition as smooth as possible.
But we all know that it's inevitable that there will be distress and anxiety. But we hope that that will be it. We hope that it won't be traumatic. We hope that it will be a transition that can be paired by having people around these children who will be sensitive, supportive, loving, nurturing, things that -- they will be very unfamiliar with from outsiders, because they're just not expecting that to happen.
But I think with time, they will see that people who are not part of the community can also be kind and respectful and honest and decent. And as that is seen and experienced by these children, that separation will be much easier.
C. BROWN: Kathy Jo, what goes through your mind when you think about -- especially with these little kids being separated from the only family they've ever known?
NICHOLSON: I think that the mothers -- I'm a mother, and I have a mother. And I just -- it's unimaginable to me to be separated from my children.
And my mother has left the community. She's been with me now for five years. When her youngest left the community willingly, she followed. And she -- I think that these mothers, if they desire, which I would imagine that they, with all their heart, would desire to be with their children, should be able to be with their children.
And they can be taught, as children together, love and support. And like the doctor said, shown that the outside world is not such a big, scary, negative place.
There is no -- this is going to be many pieces to the puzzle. There's no panacea saying this is the right way to do it. This is the wrong way to do it. It's going to be -- it's going to be a matter of unconditional love by whoever takes these precious ones in, mixed with the right kind of therapy. And these children probably will shut down, maybe for a long, long time.
I think these children and mothers deserve anonymity. I think they deserve to not be part of a circus show. I hope that the people that do take them in will recognize that it's not a project, that these are -- these are living, breathing, wounded individuals that need unconditional love. They've been told all their lives that they have to work for love, and it is conditional.
And I hope that they will seek therapy. But I think they deserve anonymity and I think they deserve a fresh start with their biological mothers, if possible.
C. BROWN: All right. Kathy Jo Nicholson and Dr. Bruce Perry, thanks to both of you. Appreciate your time tonight.
PERRY: Thank you.
NICHOLSON: Thank you.
C. BROWN: Coming up next, the search for the man whose actions allegedly set off the raid of the polygamy compound in Texas.
And the latest on our breaking story, the capture of the fugitive Marine wanted for murder. We've got that and more when 360 continues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN BARLOW, FORMER MAYOR OF COLORADO CITY: We believe in Revelation. The fundamentalist belief is that -- that a man has more than one family and that those things are ordained of God, that marriage is ordained of God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
C. BROWN: That is Dan Barlow, the father of suspect Dale Evans Barlow. Dan Barlow is the former mayor of Colorado City, Arizona, where his son is now believed to be.
There are a lot of Barlows in the FLDS community, leading some tonight to say that Dale Barlow isn't even the right man. But given that there's an arrest warrant in Texas with his name on it, others want to know why is he still free?
We sent 360's Gary Tuchman to Colorado City to find out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a house surrounded by a fortress-like wall, a security camera on the lookout for unwanted guests. Signs warning not to trespass.
This is the home of polygamy sect member Dale Barlow, the man accused of beating and sexually assaulting a 16-year-old girl at the group's ranch in Texas, even as recently as this past Easter Sunday. But has he ever been to the ranch in Texas?
(on camera) Mr. Barlow? You have a "no trespassing" sign, so we're yelling from here to see if you'll talk to us. I'm Gary Tuchman of CNN. Mr. Barlow?
(voice-over) No answer. Barlow happens to be on probation after pleading no contest to conspiring to have sex with a minor. Probation officers tell us they just saw him in this house Tuesday and add, "Mr. Barlow continues to meet with his probation officer regularly."
To the best of their knowledge, they say, he hasn't left the area for the eight months he's been on probation. But Texas authorities insist he committed these crimes in Texas.
SHERIFF DAVE DORAN, SCHLEIGHTER COUNTY, TEXAS: Let's just say this: if he was on their property he would have been arrested right now.
TUCHMAN: But now that he apparently isn't, why isn't he being arrested in Arizona? The Mojave County, Arizona, sheriff says he would arrest him but has not received a warrant.
(on camera) Probation officials here in Mojave County, Arizona, say Dale Barlow lives in this house with at least three women and at least 17 children. They say as far as they know, he has never violated any rules of his probation agreement, which include asking for permission to leave the state. They say he's never asked for such permission.
(voice-over) Richard Holm was a member of the polygamist sect for 51 years before being kicked out. He thinks it unlikely that Barlow has regularly visited the Texas ranch.
RICHARD HOLM, FORMER WARREN JEFFS FOLLOWER: To go and come from there, it's been portrayed as such a holy land that people don't just go and come at random.
TUCHMAN: Outside Barlow's Arizona home, we run into a neighbor on horseback.
(on camera) Do you know Dale Barlow, who lives here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He don't live there.
TUCHMAN: He doesn't live -- no, here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here.
TUCHMAN: Do you know Dale Barlow?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TUCHMAN: What kind of guy is he?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know.
TUCHMAN: Good guy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a good guy. Pretty good, I these.
TUCHMAN: Do you know that the authorities in the state of Texas want him for a crime? Have you heard about that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I have.
TUCHMAN: Yes. What do you think about that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he did it, they'd better catch him.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Texas authorities have not made clear why they haven't asked Arizona officials to catch him. But Dale Barlow is still suspect No. 1.
C. BROWN: And Gary joining us now.
Gary, what's going on here? What is the theory as to why Texas is not asking Arizona for Dale Barlow's arrest?
TUCHMAN: Well, Campbell, here's what investigative sources are telling us in Arizona. They thought (ph) these allegations and these horrifying things are true at the compound in Texas. They have zero evidence that this man, Dale Barlow, has been in Texas over the last eight months.
They believe what might have happened -- I emphasize might have been happened, is there are so many Barlows inside this -- hundreds of people named Barlow, they think it's possible the folks in Texas got this confused and perhaps it's a different Barlow.
A case in point, Campbell. Tonight, as just so happened, our satellite truck got stuck in the mud. That happens sometimes. We had to call a towing service, a member of the sect, to come help tow the truck out. And the man who came out, a friendly guy, his last name was Barlow.
C. BROWN: Just bizarre. Gary Tuchman for us tonight. Gary, thanks.
Coming up next, we're going to have the latest on our breaking news. A Marine accused of killing a pregnant Marine is captured in Mexico. We're going to get an update on the case after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) C. BROWN: We want to briefly upstate you on our breaking story from the top of the program. Late word that the FBI and Mexican authorities have nabbed Cesar Laurean, suspect No. 1 in the disappearance and murder of a pregnant fellow Marine.
CNN's Ed Lavandera is joining us once again, along with CNN's Susan Candiotti, who's with us by telephone.
And Ed, let's back up a little bit and tell everyone sort of how we got here, what Cesar Laurean is accused of doing.
LAVANDERA: Well, he's accused of murdering a fellow Marine who was pregnant at the time. She was murdered back in December. She was eight months pregnant, I believe. Very close to giving birth. Her body was found in January of this year, three months ago, in Cesar Laurean's backyard. And it was after -- it was after that discovery was made that -- or very close to being made that Cesar Laurean went on the run.
But between the moment Cesar Laurean -- Maria Lauterbach, the victim in this case, was reported missing, which I believe was on December 12, if my memory serves me correct, and between -- early to mid January, Cesar Laurean was roaming free in the town of Jacksonville, North Carolina.
And it wasn't until just about a week before her body was discovered, it wasn't -- hadn't become clear to authorities that he was connected to her and had these protective orders and these situations where many people believed Maria Lauterbach was afraid of Cesar Laurean because of -- there had been some allegations and court documents where they might have -- they've had some sort of relationship.
It's not exactly clear what that relationship was and how it was still going on at the time of the murder. But I think that it kind of puts it in perspective that, you know, a lot of these -- these authorities were very late to getting on his trail, despite having these protective orders that were out there in Camp Lejeune.
C. BROWN: All right. Let me also bring in Susan.
And Susan, you were telling us a bit earlier, you had talked to one of the prosecutors involved here about this communication between his wife and Laurean. What can you tell us about that?
CANDIOTTI: Campbell, there seems to be a linchpin in how authorities may have found him in Mexico. And that is that about two weeks ago, I learned that the FBI seized a computer, a computer that Cesar Laurean's wife had been using to communicate, according to this source, with her husband.
Now, this computer did not belong to the wife. It, in fact, belonged to her sister, who was also a U.S. Marine. Authorities apparently, through using intel -- intel ways and means of finding out what was going on, found out about these communications, went in and took possession of that computer. And not only that, but they also took possession of diaries that the wife had been keeping of letters, in essence, I'm told, that she was writing to her husband, letters that were unsent. But saying things like, "I still love you, yet I can't believe that you have been unfaithful to me. This according to this law enforcement source.
So it would appear as though they may have tracked him down through his use of the Internet. And I am told that when they arrested him, it was out in public. He did not put up a fight. And the location that's described to me is about a two-hour ride from Mexico City -- Campbell.
C. BROWN: And Susan, we -- I remember early on we had learned that there were letters that he had sent to her, if I'm correct, or allegedly sent to her. So this e-mail is in addition to that?
CANDIOTTI: That's right; that's right. He had sent at least four letters to his wife: a couple when he was still in the vicinity of his home and another one that he mailed before he crossed the border, when he was in Texas before he crossed the border into Mexico. And so those also gave the authorities some assistance.
But this effort by him to continue to try to reach out to his wife, who authorities have said he still clearly loved and missed his child, who is about 18 months or so old, that he wanted to be reunited with them some day.
And I'm also told that, recently, that Laurean had been giving indications that he might try to cross over the border again and possibly get in touch with his parents. That authorities have also been trying to cut off resources that might have been available to him in which he might have been able to keep on living down there, to earn money or possibly to make it back over to the United States.
But in the end, they tracked him down. And it appears as though it may have been through these communications, these e-mails.
C. BROWN: Ed, let me bring you back into it. You know, is it possible, in addition to these charges, that he could face charges as well from the Marine corps? Is he considered to be a deserter?
LAVANDERA: You know what? I can't remember off the top of my head if that were -- that were the case, but there had been an investigation into sexual assault charges between Maria Lauterbach and Cesar Laurean.
I think, if I remember correctly, as well, we're trying to get back in touch with the officials there on -- at Camp Lejeune. But it was my understanding that, given the magnitude and the seriousness of these charges, that they were going to let the state authorities, the civilian authorities, essentially, handle -- handle that case since obviously, it was a much more severe, much more serious situation in terms of -- in terms of the law that they were going to let them handle that.
However, I think one interesting caveat here. And I remember this being discussed early on. Remember, as you -- as the prosecutor told you a little while ago, the death penalty is off the case. And I remember having some discussions back in January when the prosecutor had to kind of make that deal to make sure that he got extradited back to Mexico.
There were some speculating at the time, wondering if, perhaps, if military authorities were to follow up on these more serious charges, if they had the authority to do that, whether or not the death penalty could in some way be brought back onto the table. Whether or not that's even a possibility is very remote at this point. But it was one of those things that was kind of discussed back in January.
C. BROWN: All right. Ed, thanks.
We want to bring in now the sheriff whose department has been handling this since the very beginning. We've got him on the phone now, Sheriff Ed Brown of Onslow County, North Carolina.
Sheriff, I know your office took the initial lead in the investigation. What are your thoughts tonight about Laurean's capture?
SHERIFF ED BROWN, ONSLOW COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA: I'm excited, I'm elated about it. But I must tell you up front, I've never had any doubt that this day would come. See, I know our law enforcement in this country, and I know their commitment to the task.
I have been kept informed as to how the pursuit was going or the tracking of Mr. Laurean was going. And I am impressed by both the American law enforcement and the Mexican law enforcement authorities in their relentless commitment to this apprehension.
C. BROWN: You said you had been kept abreast of how it was going. What can you tell us about what led to this capture?
E. BROWN: I can't go into the details of what went on behind the scene, but so many times things were going on behind the scenes. And that process is not one that you can come out and make public as it goes on, because if you do, this day may not come this quick.
C. BROWN: You know, it seems as though the FBI took over the capture. How involved will your office be from here on out?
E. BROWN: The -- I don't think you can say the FBI took over. They worked in conjunction with the Mexican authorities, the NCIS. And there's been officers here, FBI and the Onslow County Sheriff's Office, working back here behind the scenes. It's been a unified effort...
C. BROWN: Right.
E. BROWN: ... that made this day happen. How this will go forth from here, the extradition process, I do not know how long that will take.
C. BROWN: OK. Sheriff...
E. BROWN: But I do know...
C. BROWN: Sheriff Ed Brown, we're out of time tonight. I just want to say thank you. Appreciate your time; appreciate you coming on.
E. BROWN: You're welcome.
C. BROWN: Coming up next, some other news out there tonight. Tough questions from the top commander in Iraq, from our man on the ground, Michael Ware.
And more travel trouble. The flight cancellations are far from over. We've got the latest when 360 continues.
C. BROWN: Erica Hill joins us now with a "360 News and Business Bulletin."
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, Campbell.
The troubles continue at American Airlines. The carrier says it will be forced to cancel another 570 flights tomorrow, but that's actually better than the more than 900 flights that were scrubbed today. American still checking the wiring on its MD-80 jets.
At least four people were hurt when a tornado ripped through Central Arkansas today, devastating a mobile home park and sending National Weather Service forecasters into a bunker. There was extensive damage, but no deaths have been reported.
And the U.S. Senate passing a bipartisan package of tax breaks and other relief for businesses and homeowners caught in the housing crisis today. The House is likely to reject key portions, though, of that measure, Campbell.
BROWN: All right. Erica, thanks.
And coming up, an update on our breaking news. A massive manhunt over tonight. A Marine accused of killing a pregnant fellow Marine is captured.
Plus, General Petraeus's worst nightmare. He talks about his worst-case scenario in Iraq and how to avoid it, coming up next.
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