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NANCY GRACE
Marine Husband Charged With Murdering Soldier Wife
Aired July 14, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news. Tonight, bombshell developments, burned remains discovered in a remote and heavily wooded area, North Carolina, positively identified as 24-year-old Second Lieutenant Holley James Wimunc, cause of death not released at this hour. Police reveal new evidence torpedoes the husband`s alibi. In the last hours, police confirm Wimunc dead before she was taken from her two-bedroom apartment, Fayetteville, North Carolina, also hinting her body may have been dismembered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sad developments in the disappearance of a Ft. Bragg Army nurse. Holley Wimunc`s father says authorities have told him that some remains found yesterday near Camp LeJeune in Onslow County, North Carolina, are those of his daughter, that the remains were found in a brush fire. Wimunc`s an Army second lieutenant who`s been missing since Thursday. A fire was found burning in her North Carolina apartment in Fayetteville.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives developed probable cause to additionally charge John Wimunc with first degree murder and Kyle Alden with conspiracy to commit first degree murder for the death of Holley Wimunc. Both Wimunc and Alden are now in the Cumberland County detention center being held with a no bond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Disney sweetheart and teen superstar Hannah Montana, AKA Miley Cyrus, in another scandal after illegal hackers allegedly break into Cyrus`s cell phone, downloading numerous risque photos, then dumping them onto the Web, Disney scrambling to protect their box office and ratings monster. And in the meantime, where are the criminal charges against the hackers? Can they even be traced?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alleged photos of Hannah Montana star Miley Cyrus circulating on the Web, and one of those shows the 15-year-old actress in the shower in a white T-shirt, another with her T-shirt rolled up, revealing her stomach. Those pictures allegedly obtained by a hacker said to have accessed the actress`s cell phone memory. Just months ago, "Vanity Fair" showed a photo of the teen in a seductive pose, barebacked and wrapped in a sheet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news, bombshell tonight, burned remains discovered in a remote and heavily wooded area, North Carolina, positively identified as 24-year-old Second Lieutenant Holley James Wimunc, cause of death not released at this hour. Police do confirm Wimunc dead before she was ever taken away from her two-bedroom North Carolina apartment, also hinting her body may have been dismembered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Holley Wimunc`s husband, Marine corporal John Wimunc, now facing a first degree murder charge. Investigators say they believe burned remains found in a brush fire yesterday are those of the missing Ft. Bragg Army nurse, but they are waiting now on tests for a formal identification. Second Lieutenant Holley Wimunc had been missing since Thursday, when she failed to show up for duty at the North Carolina Army post. Investigators say that fire had been set inside her apartment, allegedly by her husband. The two were said to be estranged and living apart. A second Marine, Lance Corporal Kyle Alden, is now charged with being an accessory after the fact.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Numerous leads were followed up and evidence collected which aided investigating officers to develop probable cause to arrest and charge John Patrick Wimunc and Kyle Ryan Alden each with first degree arson, with conspiracy to commit first degree arson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Police also revealing but for a brush fire that broke up, Holley Wimunc may never have been discovered there in a shallow grave, her charred remains, I guess, identifiable through DNA or dental records.
Straight out to Gurnal Scott with WPTF. Gurnal, what happened?
GURNAL SCOTT, WPTF: Well, the big thing, as you mentioned there, the murder charges that have been put down against John Wimunc. And the fire that -- the brush fire where the body and the remains were discovered -- apparently, the body was trying to -- they were trying to get rid of the evidence, and starting the fire to get rid of the body started the brush fire that eventually led police and investigators to where that body eventually was.
GRACE: To Bryan Mims with WRAL. Bryan, what more can you tell me?
BRYAN MIMS, WRAL: Well, Fayetteville police did say today that the apartment where Holley Wimunc lived was burned to destroy any evidence of the killing. They believe Holley Wimunc was killed in her apartment and her body was removed, but they do not think that the body was burned at the apartment. Fayetteville police are also not saying whether they think John Wimunc or Kyle Alden actually set fire to the body. They say investigators are still working that scene, so they won`t say whether they think that these two suspects actually burned the body.
GRACE: To Dewey Hudson joining us tonight, Onslow County district attorney. Mr. Hudson, thank you for being with us. I understand you were at the scene when Holley`s body was discovered. What did you observe?
DEWEY HUDSON, ONSLOW COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, good evening, Nancy. I was not there when the body was discovered. I did go today, this afternoon, and observed the body and the surrounding area.
GRACE: What did you observe?
HUDSON: Well, it was a shallow grave in the middle of a remote part of Onslow County, probably half a mile off of a rural road. It`s down a trail where you almost had to have a four-wheeler to go down, a very remote part of Onslow. And the grave looked like it was about a foot-and-a-half deep. And you could see the remains of what appeared to be a human being.
GRACE: Mr. Hudson is with us. This is the district attorney in Onslow County. Mr. Hudson, why do you believe that the perpetrators moved the body?
HUDSON: Well, I think -- that`s a good question. Probably, they were trying to get rid of the evidence, as one of your -- (INAUDIBLE) spoken to you earlier, just trying to remove the evidence from the crime scene.
GRACE: Mr. Hudson, was the body burned beyond recognition? How did they identify it?
HUDSON: I`m not exactly sure how they identified it. When I left earlier today, they had not positively. They were in the process of still collecting (INAUDIBLE) a lot of it was skeleton remains. The fire had burned a lot of her body. You could not recognize whether it was a woman or a man, from what I could see.
GRACE: Back to Bryan Mims with WRAL. Why are police so convinced she was killed in the apartment before she was ever taken?
MIMS: They are not going into many specifics, but only say that the evidence they found in the apartment indicate that she was indeed murdered there. They will not speculate how she was killed. They say the cause of her death is unknown pending autopsy results. But they`re only saying that she was indeed killed in the apartment, but the body was not burned there.
GRACE: Out to John Lucich, former investigator, joining us out of New York. John, it seems to me that they must have found some type of blood evidence or something suggestive in that apartment that the death occurred there. Weigh in.
JOHN LUCICH, FORMER INVESTIGATOR: Oh, there`s no doubt about it. They probably found an enormous amount of blood, enormous amount of skin particles, even -- maybe a larger part, leading them to believe that this was instant death there. And it`s just the information -- the data they collected at the scene.
GRACE: I want to go back to Bryan Mims with WRAL. You know, at the end of last week -- of course, all indicators state that the first place you look is to the husband, the lover, the ex. But they did not take him into immediate custody. Why?
MIMS: Well, they -- they still had a number of questions. We obtained some reports, some paperwork, on Friday that show that the two had been going through a divorce. And in fact, Holley Wimunc even filed for a protective order against him because back in May, she says that he pointed a gun to her head and pointed a gun to himself, threatened to kill himself and even scrawled his initials on a bullet.
Police are telling us today that they immediately began looking at him as a person of interest. They didn`t arrest him right off, but they kept him on what they described as something like house arrest for the past several days. They kept a close watch on him at Camp LeJeune, where he`s based. And finally, come Sunday night, they had enough probable cause to arrest him on the arson. And today we learn that he`s charged with murder, as well.
GRACE: Back to Bryan Mims with WRAL. Bryan, what is the perceived motive?
MIMS: The chief of police in Fayetteville, we asked him that question, and he refused to speculate. He said he did not want to discuss a motive at this point.
GRACE: OK. To Gurnal Scott with WPTF. Do we have any idea what the motive was? I mean, according to the parents, right up until the end of last week, the divorce was amicable -- his parents, anyway.
SCOTT: Yes. As a matter of fact, his parents have been saying that he actually didn`t want a divorce, but the proceedings had gone through. But as far as a motive, Bryan`s correct. Really, the police aren`t saying anything to...
GRACE: OK.
SCOTT: ... not to compromise the investigation, so they say.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and author. Dr. Robi, how could the parents have been so misled? Because as late as, to my understanding, Friday, they were saying, Absolutely not, this was an amicable divorce, they have remained friends, we have been in touch with her, everything was fine. How could everyone be so misled?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I`m not sure if they were, in fact, misled. I would have to say that there`s probably some denial operating. And it`s very possible that the parents didn`t know the intricacies of what was going on in the relationship. They only knew what they were being told. And when it comes to an intimate relationship, people can be very guarded about the truth of what`s really going on.
GRACE: Out to the lines. To Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love you. And your hair looks really good tonight.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is the military or the state going to handle the case, or both?
GRACE: Interesting question. To Michael Farkas, joining us, former active duty JAG. What about it? Will the military have any role in the prosecution or the investigation?
MICHAEL FARKAS, FORMER ACTIVE DUTY JAG: Nancy, the military has a role. In fact, there`s close cooperation, usually, between federal and military authorities and state authorities. This crime was committed, it appears, in the first and even last instance, on state property, not federal property, which means the state is going to prosecute it. However, the military, NCIS, as you`ve seen, cooperating very closely and lending substantial assistance.
GRACE: Out to Bryan Mims of WRAL. Bryan, was she pregnant?
MIMS: We have no information that she was pregnant. We do know that she is the mother -- she was the mother of two small children, a boy and a girl, but no evidence that she was pregnant.
GRACE: Back out to the lines. Beverly in New York. Hi, Beverly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You look wonderful.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. My question is, is there a death penalty in this state?
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Alex Sanchez, John Burris. To my understanding, Alex, the death penalty is pursuable in this jurisdiction. And in fact, the fact that there was a heinous mode of death, probably kidnapping, as well, would qualify for death penalty in that jurisdiction.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, if we come to the conclusion that he`s, in fact, guilty of this offense, yes -- the cutting up of the body, the burning of the body, the burying of the body. But one of the things that I have not heard so far is what is the exact evidence linking him to the offense? Is it statements that he has made? Are there witnesses? Is there surveillance? Was he seen buying some accelerant? I haven`t heard anything so far, so I`m not prepared to draw any conclusions about him yet.
GRACE: OK. Let`s go back to Gurnal Scott with WPTF. Gurnal, it`s my understanding that there was a witness there at the apartment complex where Holley lived that observed two white males fleeing in a vehicle that matched the vehicle belonging to either the ex-husband or the friend. That matched up. And they both have been apprehended. Do we know if the alleged co-conspirator has given information yet, Gurnal?
SCOTT: We don`t know much about the interviews that have been conducted. We do understand, as you have heard, that there were people seen running from the apartment. But as far as what the investigation and what the line of questioning has revealed, we haven`t been made privy to that.
GRACE: Let`s go to Dewey Hudson, the Onslow County district attorney. Mr. Hudson, again, thank you for being with us. How do you believe they connected up the ex-husband? Well, the husband. They`re in the midst of a divorce right now.
HUDSON: Well, as you know, the ex-husband or wife in a case is always the first suspect in cases like this. So obviously, any law enforcement officer would look towards the husband in a case like this to begin with.
GRACE: But what, if anything, connects him to the dead body?
HUDSON: Well, we have -- or they have information that connects him or they would not have filed charges. And I`m aware of that. But I think it would not be appropriate for me to go into all those details at this time. As you know, there`s also a co-defendant involved in this case.
GRACE: Well, it seems to me, John Burris, without compromising the investigation, I am gathering from Mr. Hudson -- he is the district attorney in a nearby jurisdiction there in Onslow -- you`ve got an alleged co-conspirator, all right? And you know the deal, John Burris. One guy is charged with the murder. One guy is charged with after the fact accessory to murder. Don`t you think it`s very likely that he turned over -- Kyle Ryan Alden turned over on Wimunc and said, yes, he asked me to get rid of a body?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, absolutely. I mean, I can`t imagine a guy not doing such when he`s looking at a substantial amount of time. It only makes sense...
GRACE: Or the death penalty. Hi!~ Death penalty? Time?
BURRIS: Absolutely. So you know, if I`m his lawyer, I`m...
GRACE: In hell!
BURRIS: If I`m his lawyer, I`m looking to make some kind of arrangements where I could give my statement and also ensure that I don`t get a long prison term, particularly if he did not participate in the homicide itself.
GRACE: Yes. He just...
BURRIS: If he`s after the fact...
GRACE: ... mutilated and burned the dead body.
BURRIS: Well, we don`t know -- we don`t know that...
GRACE: What do you want him to get, straight probation?
BURRIS: Yes, but we don`t know that. But we don`t know that. We don`t know that. Now, obviously...
GRACE: No, we don`t.
BURRIS: ... if he was actively involved...
GRACE: We don`t know that.
BURRIS: ... then he`s really trying to keep himself from getting the death penalty. But the prosecution is going to want to make sure that the husband really is the perpetrator here the most significant way. It`s his idea. And so he`s going to want to turn the other person. It only makes sense. It happens in most cases. And ultimately, it becomes a credibility question. If this guy then turned, well, how do you know he`s not telling the -- how we do we know he`s telling the truth? So then it becomes something for the other person`s lawyer to really attack that person`s credibility. But in the first instance, he`s got to talk, if he wants to save his skin.
GRACE: Out to Michael Farkas, former JAG, active duty JAG. Michael, you said that the military would have involvement. How far will their involvement go?
FARKAS: Well, the state`s definitely going to take the lead in prosecuting the case, Nancy. They`re going to be in court. It`s going to be the Fayetteville County district attorney or Onslow, whoever the actually district attorney is for this particular area. But the military has a very significant role to play. They have a lot of background information.
GRACE: OK...
FARKAS: They have the ability to...
GRACE: I do not foresee a military trial. This is going to be a trial in regular court, right?
FARKAS: Yes, it is. Absolutely.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Carol in California. Hi, Carol.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It is sheer joy seeing you as a mother.
GRACE: Thank you. If you had seen me at 5:00 AM this morning trying to feed Lucy, you may not have thought that.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why can`t these men just get a divorce or accept divorce? Because that`s emotional destruction.
GRACE: You know what? Carol, you know, we were talking about that en route to the set tonight. What ever happened, Dr. Robi, to a divorce? You know, the country song, "D-I-V-O-R-C-E"?
LUDWIG: Yes.
GRACE: What happened to that? There`s no-fault divorce. You just go -- you fax something down to the courthouse, wham, bam, over.
LUDWIG: Yes. Well, you know what?
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: There are a lot of people -- no, there are a lot of people that feel divorce takes too long. And murder is something that`s a little bit more impulsive. It`s quicker. And if you have the fantasy you can get away with it, that`s the route some people take.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a female soldier now murdered, burned and abandoned in a field. Suspicion definitely surrounded her estranged husband. In divorce papers, Holley claimed he had held a gun to her head and beat her. Sure enough, Marine corporal John Wimunc was charged with first degree murder today. Holley had been missing since Thursday, when a fire gutted her apartment near Ft. Bragg, North Carolina. Sunday, authorities responded to a brush fire, found what they believe are the remains of this young lady.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Not only that, the sheriff`s hinting the body was dismembered, referring specifically to mutilation. This young mother of two now dead. In custody tonight, the estranged husband.
Out to the lines. To Sue in Illinois. Hi, Sue.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you, sweetheart?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. I had hoped that this had a happy ending in some way, but when I found out that her belongings were still in the apartment, she hadn`t taken anything away from her and somebody had faked an arson there, it looked bad last week. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, supposedly, according to everybody that I`ve been listening to, it was supposed to be a nice divorce. But I`m wondering, is -- was there a large insurance policy on her life?
GRACE: Excellent question. To Bryan Mims with WRAL. Do we know anything about money as a financial motive?
MIMS: And that is a good question. Police have not said anything to that effect. We don`t know about any insurance policy or money being the motive. Again, police have declined to speculate or discuss a possible motive. But we don`t know anything about that now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any time a spouse -- you know, we have a death, and initially, we start with the people who are closest to the spouse and we work our way out from that. And I guess that pretty much, you know, will explain why we got where we`re at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Sunday, July 13, Fayetteville Police Department detectives were contacted by members of NCIS and the Onslow County sheriff`s office, who informed us of an unidentified body which was found in a remote location near Sneads Ferry, North Carolina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There`s no happy ending for Holley James Wimunc. The 24-year- old mom of two`s charred remains have just been discovered in a remote and heavily wooded area there in North Carolina, Sheriff hinting her body may have even been dismembered.
I want to go out to Dr. Zhongxue Hua -- we are taking your calls live -- Union County medical examiner. Dr. Hua, thank you for being with us. How can they this quickly -- they just find the body and they`ve positively identified it as Holley Wimunc. How did they do that? It`s burned.
DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION COUNTY, NJ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It`s very easy, actually. All you have to do is do a dental comparison, retrieve the pre- mortem dental records and compare the post-mortem. It should be within minutes.
GRACE: And I guess, Michael Farkas, the dental records were immediately accessible there in the military.
FARKAS: It`s actually cryptically (ph) and terribly convenient for that to happen because they have medical record, DNA, all sorts of records that are very easily accessible.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Holley Wimunc`s husband, Marine Corporal John Wimunc, now facing is a first-degree murder charge. Investigators say they believe burned remains found in a brush fire yesterday are those of the missing Ft. Bragg army nurse, but they are waiting now on tests for a formal identification.
Second Lieutenant Holley Wimunc had been missing since Thursday when she failed to show up for duty at the North Carolina Army Post. Investigators say that fire had been set inside her apartment, allegedly by her husband.
The two were said to be estranged and living apart. A second Marine Lance Corporal Kyle Alden is now charged with being an accessory after the fact.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: We`re not sure of the age of Holley James Wimunc`s children, but how do you tell a child they`re going to go the rest of their life without seeing their mother ever again?
No good ending for Holley James Wimunc. Her charred remains have been found in a heavily wooded area there in North Carolina.
We now discover her husband has been charged in her murder. The sheriff`s hinting toward dismemberment. Her charred remains just identified.
We are taking your calls live. To you Kelly in New Jersey, hi, Kelly.
KELLY, NEW JERSEY RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
KELLY: Who has the children now and in whose custody were they in when this young woman was found missing?
GRACE: I believe that they are in Florida.
To Bryan Mims with WRAL, I don`t know if it was so much she did not have custody or she was on assignment there in North Carolina. What do we know about custody?
BRYAN MIMS, REPORTER, WRAL: The children were living with their father from a previous relationship Holley Wimunc`s had. The father is not John Wimunc. Police have not given us any indication of where the children have been living, but possibly Florida. But we have no official confirmation of that from police.
GRACE: I guess it`s very, very difficult when you`ve got one parent in the military and subject to travel.
To Gurnal Scott with WPTF -- Gurnal, what are the charges these two are facing?
GURNAL SCOTT, ANCHOR/REPORTER, WPTF RADIO: Well, as of right now or as of Sunday, Alden and Wimunc were charged with first degree arson and conspiracy to commit arson.
Now that all changed today. They had a dollar bond placed on them. That all changed today when Wimunc -- John Wimunc was charged with first- degree murder and then Alden was charged with accessory after the fact of murder.
GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, how do you get somebody to help you remove a dead body, and burn it and bury it in a shallow grave? I mean, how do you get somebody to go along with that kind of scheme?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "TILL DEATH DO US PART": Well, either somebody is paid -- and it doesn`t sound like that was the case here -- or there`s some type of psychological manipulation, some vicarious thrill wanting to please this other person in some way.
But it has to resonate as being OK on some level with the person who`s going along with it.
GRACE: All I can say is, buddy, you better flip.
Back out to the lines, Lindsay in North Carolina. Hi, Lindsay.
LINDSAY, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. First of all, I just wanted to say you`re awesome.
GRACE: Thank you.
LINDSAY: Second of all, I`m calling from the area this happened. And I kind of have two questions.
GRACE: OK.
LINDSAY: The first being, is there where they interviewed the soon- to-be ex-husband, they weren`t watching what he was doing, what was going on? Like, how was he allowed to go from Fayetteville to base to here and bury her and start this fire?
Number two, considering what just happened back in December or January with Cesar Laurean, is there like some connection? Have both of these guys been to Iraq? Is there something maybe to do with that where their brain is just not there?
GRACE: Interesting question, Lindsay. As far as watching him, before she went missing, no one had a reason to be watching the husband. As to your question about active duty, that`s an interesting question.
What do we know, Bryan Mims? Do we know whether the husband had been in Iraq?
MIMS: I spoke with a friend of Holley Wimunc, Friday -- someone who works with her -- and she told me that John Wimunc had been deployed for most of their marriage -- had been married for a couple of years and he did spend time in Iraq.
Camp Lejeune has not given us any information about.
GRACE: OK.
MIMS: . how many times.
GRACE: So he had been in Iraq.
To Alex Sanchez, here comes the defense.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it is an important defense because we hear a lot about Iraqi war veterans coming back with a lot of psychiatric illnesses. And everybody has a lot of sympathy for them. But once they act out on this and they commit some crimes, the only thing people want to do is put these fellows in jail. And I think that`s unfortunate.
GRACE: Well, Alex, this is not just a shoplifting or a joyride in somebody`s Cadillac. This is not only murder but possible dismemberment of the body and, for sure, burning the body and burying it out in a remote area. I don`t think that that qualifies as acting out.
SANCHEZ: Well, it`s certainly an egregious.
GRACE: Acting out? You know what, acting out -- I don`t know how you even said acting out. The woman`s dead. She`s got two children that will go the rest of their life without a mother. This is not acting out.
SANCHEZ: It is.
GRACE: If these allegations are true, it is murder one and death penalty qualified.
SANCHEZ: It`s an egregious offense but certainly a psychiatric condition is a factor that will be evaluated by the judge and the jury.
GRACE: To John Burris, joining us from San Francisco -- John, the fact that he -- if he is, in fact, guilty, but if he killed her and then knowingly dismembered her, hid her body, tried to hide evidence, doesn`t that suggest he knew what he was doing was wrong and thereby defeating an insanity defense?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think it`s an insanity defense that would work here. But that doesn`t mean his psychological state of mind would not have some impact in terms of mitigation. We`re talking about a situation where it clearly looks like a death penalty type case on its face.
But, on the other hand, given his psychiatric distress that he may have been under -- and I think there`s some indication of that -- you`re really talking about saving this man`s life. And I think the psychiatric aspect of it is going to be an extraordinarily -- important aspect.
If I`m his defense lawyer, I`m looking at that. I think and maybe this case had a chance of not getting the death penalty. And maybe get a second-degree murder on him.
GRACE: Boy, this guy better be praying he saw combat, because if he sat part behind a desk.
BURRIS: Well, even if he didn`t see combat, I think.
GRACE: . bye-bye to the insanity defense. Well, you can say that all you want to, but you know what a jury is going to think, John Burris.
Out to the lines, Celeste in Georgia. Hi, Celeste.
CELESTE, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hi, how are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
CELESTE: OK, well, first of all, I would like to say that is such a heinous crime that has been committed.
GRACE: Yes.
CELESTE: And my question is, what was the relationship between the husband and the accomplice of the crime? Do you think maybe they were lovers or something undercover?
GRACE: I haven`t heard about their -- the nature of their relationship.
Gurnal Scott with WPTF Radio, what do we know?
SCOTT: Well, as far as the relationship between Wimunc and Alden, they were in the same unit. As far as the relationship that Alden may have had with Holley Wimunc, nothing has been said as of that yet.
GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, let`s follow up on Celeste`s questions. I don`t see them being lovers because if he had another love interest why would he care about killing his wife? When you`ve moved on psychologically -- here I am a lawyer armchair quarterbacking, that when you`ve moved on and you have a new love interest, you don`t care enough to go back and kill your ex.
LUDWIG: Not necessarily. What if that ex somehow is threatening to take all of your money or to make your life miserable or make your life difficult or somehow you`re a paranoid guy and you fear that your wife is going to -- somehow might -- make life difficult for you and your new lover?
So that`s not necessarily the case.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. And when we come back, Disney sweetheart and teen superstar Hannah Montana, a.k.a. Miley Cyrus, in another scandal after illegal hackers allegedly break into her cell phone, downloading numerous risque photos just before dumping them on to the Internet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An alleged new set of racy photos of "Hannah Montana" star Miley Cyrus hitting the Web. One of those allegedly shows the 15-year-old in the shower wearing a white t-shirt. That photo and others obtained by a hacker who tapped into Cyrus`s cell phone memory.
This comes on the heels of seductive photos of Cyrus for "Vanity Fair" magazine just months ago.
MILEY CYRUS, "HANNAH MONTANA" STAR: My motto is you can`t live a positive life with a negative mind. So I think just always keep -- if you`re good up here and you`re really thinking about all the positive things and keep yourself surrounded with positivity and good family and good friends and fans, and just keep yourself fun, I think also don`t grow up too fast. You just keep your, you know, good friends close.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: I wish all those positive friends had been with her in the shower when she took those pictures and sent them on her cell phone.
Straight out to Tom O`Neill with "In Touch Weekly," what happened?
TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR, IN TOUCH WEEKLY: Well, Nancy, just three months after those "Vanity Fair" pictures, which were sexually suggestive, pictures taken by somebody else, remember, Miley said, oh we didn`t know anything about it, how bad it was.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. This is the photo?
O`NEIL: No, no.
GRACE: This is the photo I`m looking at that was leaked? Look.
O`NEIL: Yes, now with this.
GRACE: It`s her stomach, hello. What do you want her to wear, a burqa? She`s 15, she showed her tummy. I don`t see the problem.
O`NEIL: These are pictures now being taken by herself. She -- in that picture where we see her holding up her cell phone to the mirror. She`s taking this picture, she`s blowing a kiss to someone. There`s a sexual overtone, a romantic overtone anyway.
GRACE: Wait. Let me see -- show me, Tom O`Neil.
O`NEIL: OK. Let`s go back.
GRACE: I`ve got two words to say to you, O`Neil.
O`NEIL: What`s that?
GRACE: Paris and Britney. Now that is a problem. This is not a problem.
O`NEIL: Why not?
GRACE: The problem is an illegal hacker broke into her cell phone allegedly. That`s the problem. How somebody could do that and why aren`t there criminal charges right now?
O`NEIL: I used to think.
GRACE: You think her in her t-shirt with her back turned to you is a problem?
O`NEIL: I -- yes.
GRACE: You certainly turned into a prude overnight. When did that happen?
O`NEIL: Well, I think that she has a job at the Disney Channel, too.
GRACE: If you think this is sexy, then the problem is all yours, Tom O`Neil.
O`NEIL: Who`s in that -- you just asked the question, Nancy. Who`s in that shower taking that picture with her? She`s 14 years old there.
GRACE: For all I know she`s got a tripod. You are looking at photos of what appeared to be Miley Cyrus. They were allegedly obtained by a hacker. They got into Cyrus` cell phone and posted all of this on Digitalgangster.com.
What is that, Tom O`Neil, Digitalgangster.com?
O`NEIL: It`s one of these guerrilla paparazzi things. Now he`s taken these pictures, has leaked what he claims are fairly innocent ones and he`s shopping around photos that he says are way worse.
GRACE: Right.
To Dorothy Cascerceri, entertainment editor with "National Enquirer," don`t you think that if he had all this ammo, we`d have already heard about it?
DOROTHY CASCERCERI, ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR, NATIONAL ENQUIRER: Yes, I do, actually. Nancy, you asked what digital gainingster.com was. You remember the Paris Hilton photos that were leaked and all those phone numbers of celebrities that were leaked?
This is the same group of hackers that were responsible for that. And, actually, they convicted a 17-year-old male or female from this site for that very crime.
GRACE: Dorothy, I mean, everybody and their little brother has seen everything Britney Spears has to show, all right? She`s still raking in millions of dollars. They`re paying her hundreds of thousands of dollars just to show up to a party.
So explain to me why this girl in her shirt, fully clothed, is causing such a problem.
CASCERCERI: I think the issue here is the idea of these youngsters being role models. And yes, she is fully clothed, you`re right. But she is in the shower. She is wearing white. It is somewhat see-through. There were also other photos of her with kind of see-through shirts.
GRACE: But see-through what? She`s got her back turned to you. What do you see, her spine?
CASCERCERI: Yes, that is true, Nancy. There`s not too much exposed.
GRACE: I mean, to me, if somebody thinks this is sexual, then they`re the ones with the problem. This is just a kid in the shower.
CASCERCERI: I think in this instance.
GRACE: Look at it.
CASCERCERI: I think in this instance, it`s just a few -- it`s a few things in a row that have kind of come out about Miley and this is one more thing.
GRACE: That she wears a t-shirt in the shower?
CASCERCERI: That someone`s taking a picture of her in the shower wearing the t-shirt.
GRACE: OK.
To John Lucich, let`s get down to the real issue here. How does somebody hack into your cell phone, download it on to the Internet, and I don`t see anything about a prosecution?
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Well, we`re not there yet. There`s a couple of issues here. A lot of people forget about the fact that when we have that device that gives us contact to the world, it also gives the world contact to us.
Now, during the investigation, they are going to be able to go through the carrier and find out if, in fact, the connection was made, whether an ftp or Telenet connection to get that data.
You know this may all be a ruse. Maybe these photos were downloaded from her phone while she left her phone in her room while she was acting, while she was doing a photo shoot.
I`m not convinced yet of what I`ve seen that there was an actual hack of her phone. But if there was, they`d be able to trace it back.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Ben in Georgia. Hi, Ben.
BEN, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question? And look.
BEN: My question is.
GRACE: . this is where I`m coming from. After prosecuting so many juvenile crimes, when I hear horror, scandal, I expect to see a lot more than a kid in the shower with a t-shirt on. Go ahead.
BEN: Oh yes. I was just wondering, has anybody thought of the possibility that this could all be planted by her maybe to like get out of her contract with Disney or to maybe look more racy, more -- you know, more attractive to the bigger.
GRACE: Interesting, Ben.
What about it, Tom O`Neil? Hold on, I can`t hear Tom. Go ahead, dear.
O`NEIL: No way. Next week she has her third album coming out.
Look, this is a $1 billion empire the "Hannah Montana" franchise is. They`re not going to throw it away like this.
GRACE: What about it, Dorothy?
CASCERCERI: I don`t think this is something that her camp planted. But she does have the album coming out on July 22nd. So -- and this is certainly stirring up some controversy about her. We`re talking about her, aren`t we?
GRACE: I want to go out to the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live.
To Alex Sanchez and John Burris -- first to you, Alex. You know it`s amazing to me that somebody seems to be taking credit -- the person, although it`s just an alias that allegedly hacked into the phone and then downloaded it on this gossip Web site.
I don`t understand why there hasn`t been an arrest.
SANCHEZ: Maybe they have not determined who the particular person is that is behind that computer screen. I mean, I think the police saw very early in their investigation. But until they can identify a specific person was behind that screen that downloaded that information, this case is not going anywhere.
GRACE: You know, another issue -- out to you, John Burris -- is how do we know it`s not someone with an axe to grind against her? I mean she`s highly, highly popular. The worst thing that`s been said about her, she posed for a photo fully clothed in "Vanity Fair." I mean, this is an attack on her good girl image.
BURRIS: Well, that`s all true. Frankly, you don`t really know. And I think that`s the part that the police is placed in a very difficult position of trying to find out, how this thing actually occurred. It may be there`s no crime and then it`s just a matter of maybe some civil action here in terms of invasion of privacy and all.
But you don`t really know and I think that the problem we have around Internet, generally, and where we are in the world at large, is how do you get to this whole question of privacy and where does it end and where does it begin.
GRACE: Well, I`d like to find out how you get somebody`s cell phone number like Miley Cyrus.
These are Cyrus` pictures that started the whole controversy. They were published in the June 2008 issue of "Vanity Fair," and now, apparently, her cell phone has been hacked into.
To John Lucich, how do you get a star`s cell phone to start with to hack into it?
LUCICH: Hey, the biggest way -- social engineering. Just dealing with people that know her. I mean paparazzi do it all the time. I mean -- and there`s also.
GRACE: But then what do you do? You get the phone number, but how do you hack into the photos?
LUCICH: Well, it`s going -- you can also go through the network. Let`s not forget what happened to Paris Hilton when they went right through the network and got it from the network itself. So all those things are possible. They`ve got to take a look at those records and find out exactly what happened. It`s at the carrier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILLY RAY CYRUS, FATHER OF MILEY CYRUS: It`s about making good decisions, you know? And if you do make a bad decision, you just readjust, you know? You just say that`s what life`s about, you know. Nobody`s perfect and you just got to readjust and try to use your heart, use your head, and make the best decisions you can make.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
B. CYRUS: (INAUDIBLE) lives for the light, live for love, be the best person that you can be in this world and try to help out where you can. Miley -- she lives for the light again. She`s a giver and I think these fans that`s surrounding "Hannah Montana" and the whole experience is a chance to give back to the kids and give back to the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Photos of Disney`s little superstar, Miley Cyrus, have turned up, apparently, hacked by Digitalgangster.com. They reportedly accessed her cell phone and downloaded the memory.
You`re looking at the photos of what appeared to be Cyrus, obtained by a hacker of Cyrus` cell phone and post it on Digitalgangster.com.
There it is. And if you take a look at these, she`s fully clothed and it seems to me that a lot of people are sexualizing a young girl.
And I want to go out to the lines on this. To Mac in Arkansas, hi, Mac.
MAC, ARKANSAS RESIDENT: Yes, I was wondering, has her boyfriend might have done this for money or anything?
GRACE: Interesting question.
Tom O`Neil, what do we know?
O`NEIL: Well, these pictures, we believe, were taken for her boyfriend Nick Jonas of the Jonas Brothers last year and that she`s kept them on her phone ever since then. Why she`s kept them we don`t know.
GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, what do you think about the photos themselves?
LUDWIG: Well, I mean, she is young and kids do look up to her. There is a sexualized component to those pictures, but she is young and so I think it`s to be expected. But it`s always a little disappointing.
GRACE: Everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Kevin Mowl, 22, Pittsburgh, New York, killed, Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart and a presidential medallion. Loves karate, dreamed of being a teacher. Leaves behind parents, Harold and Mary, sister, Carlyn.
Kevin Mowl, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END